Paladins Invuln Capping in Onsal Hakkar

Can someone explain why this is allowed? Did the devs even playtest the new 6.1 pvp before implementing it?

With the housing lottery debacle not that long ago I think we can assume the testing they do is next to none.

myeah, and that they leave it untouched for weeks is... sad

I don't really see it as a huge issue. More than half of your points will (or should) be coming from kills. It's unlikely that a single node, capped by a single paladin, will determine the outcome of a game. It's dumb and annoying and will hopefully get fixed, but it's not like it's gamebreaking.

I'm also noticing non-paladins being invincible while capping nodes. Are paladins able to give others invuln as well? Otherwise I don't understand how that's possible.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

I'm also noticing non-paladins being invincible while capping nodes. Are paladins able to give others invuln as well? Otherwise I don't understand how that's possible.

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It's due to how Guardian works. When someone is being covered by the PLD, they are immune to literally everything - it all gets redirected to the PLD. It's something that's also an issue in CC, since it means that people can just chug right in front of you and there's literally nothing you can do about it (which is also why it's so damn important to have a macro that marks the person and uses quickchat, so they know that they can sip freely and effectively negate everything the enemy just did to them.) Hopefully there will be a change in the pipeline that *won't* transmit CC effects to the covering PLD, only the actual damage. This would also prevent someone being covered from capping the point.

As it is, the only option right now is to shove the PLD out of cover range (it's pretty short) of the person they're protecting and keep them there (stun, bind, heavy.) I think I read that hysteria and charmed also suppress cover for their duration?

They test if the code compiles and that's about it.

In fact, it's fun when the crowd didn't understand how their spot was stolen XD

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I don't really see it as a huge issue. More than half of your points will (or should) be coming from kills. It's unlikely that a single node, capped by a single paladin, will determine the outcome of a game. It's dumb and annoying and will hopefully get fixed, but it's not like it's gamebreaking.

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Legit just had a match lost from this exploit. We had a small lead near the end and gained the most points from kills but lost a mid yellow node to the PLD exploit and lost by less than 100 points. I've had other matches where 2-3 PLD's spent the entire match running from node to node taking 3+ per match.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I don't really see it as a huge issue. More than half of your points will (or should) be coming from kills. It's unlikely that a single node, capped by a single paladin, will determine the outcome of a game. It's dumb and annoying and will hopefully get fixed, but it's not like it's gamebreaking.

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Wrong. I've seen it turn the tide loads of times. Especially on A and S nodes

If you cant beat them, join them

If y'all are losing because an enemy team got a single node, even an S rank, then your team played like garbage. Straight up.

If your team is using the map and has awareness of spawn timers (so they're not getting stuck in on the west side of the map when you know there will be nodes popping up in the east soon), is properly attacking the correct team, is fighting efficiently and killing more than they are killed, a single node will not turn the tide of a fight.

This is the problem with OH, and FL in general - people fixate *way* too much on single, individual events when they aren't why they won or lost. If you were in a position where a single node determined victory, then your team played like crap.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

If y'all are losing because an enemy team got a single node, even an S rank, then your team played like garbage. Straight up.

If your team is using the map and has awareness of spawn timers (so they're not getting stuck in on the west side of the map when you know there will be nodes popping up in the east soon), is properly attacking the correct team, is fighting efficiently and killing more than they are killed, a single node will not turn the tide of a fight.

This is the problem with OH, and FL in general - people fixate *way* too much on single, individual events when they aren't why they won or lost. If you were in a position where a single node determined victory, then your team played like crap.

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Found the person who exploits glitches and makes up excuses to justify it.

Why does he keep saying SINGLE node as if the people doing the exploit only have 1 charge of Hallowed Ground? It's a limit break combined with a what, 20s CD skill? You can basically get a node on every spawn cycle under the right conditions, if that doesn't drastically improve your odds of winning then I don't know what would.

But yeah I guess if you massacre the team doing this exploit repeatedly for 10 minutes you would easily win, just win guys, it's not hard.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Found the person who exploits glitches and makes up excuses to justify it.

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I typically play SCH or NIN.

But does this mean I should be immature like you and respond with "found the guy that doesn't know how to play FL and blames all his losses on anything but his team"? Is that how we do things here? Or can we at least pretend to be mature, socially functional adults?

Garbage design.

DRK / PLD in pvp are pure cancer seriously, how you can give them 10 seconds of immunity? There is actually 0 counter play to it unlike before the rework where SMN could delete their barriers.

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Originally Posted by Naphtha

Why does he keep saying SINGLE node as if the people doing the exploit only have 1 charge of Hallowed Ground? It's a limit break combined with a what, 20s CD skill? You can basically get a node on every spawn cycle under the right conditions, if that doesn't drastically improve your odds of winning then I don't know what would.

But yeah I guess if you massacre the team doing this exploit repeatedly for 10 minutes you would easily win, just win guys, it's not hard.

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Exactly this, did a match the other day where 2 PLD capped at least 4 A ranks. Honestly they lost but only because our team let the 3rd one win out of spite

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Originally Posted by Garten

Exactly this, did a match the other day where 2 PLD capped at least 4 A ranks. Honestly they lost but only because our team let the 3rd one win out of spite

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They can't be everywhere at once. 4 A ranks is 400 points out of 1600. That's not really much of anything.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

They can't be everywhere at once. 4 A ranks is 400 points out of 1600. That's not really much of anything.

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It is when they're capping nodes their team otherwise would have had zero ability to cap because of spawn location and the presence of enemy teams. I've seen teams that were otherwise outmatched still win because of this being repeatedly exploited to steal nodes by even just two of their players. The most egregious of times was in the middle of the entirety of my team slugging it out with the entirety of one of the other teams over an S rank, and then two players from the third team run in and abuse this horribly broken mechanic to steal the node from under 48 enemy players.

This is very clearly not balanced and needs to be corrected ASAP. Two players should not be able to abuse a mechanic to cap unimpeded like this. Yes there are counters in the form of limit breaks on a small number of classes, but having to rely on happening to be the right class at the right time with your limit break left available specifically to counter this is not reasonable or reliable enough for how easy it is to pull off this nonsense. Which is especially true if it's a pair of paladins doing it because they just swap who caps and who guards immediately after and you can't stop them because you've already blown your limit break.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

It is when they're capping nodes their team otherwise would have had zero ability to cap because of spawn location and the presence of enemy teams. I've seen teams that were otherwise outmatched still win because of this being repeatedly exploited to steal nodes by even just two of their players. The most egregious of times was in the middle of the entirety of my team slugging it out with the entirety of one of the other teams over an S rank, and then two players from the third team run in and abuse this horribly broken mechanic to steal the node from under 48 enemy players.

This is very clearly not balanced and needs to be corrected ASAP. Two players should not be able to abuse a mechanic to cap unimpeded like this. Yes there are counters in the form of limit breaks on a small number of classes, but having to rely on happening to be the right class at the right time with your limit break left available specifically to counter this is not reasonable or reliable enough for how easy it is to pull off this nonsense. Which is especially true if it's a pair of paladins doing it because they just swap who caps and who guards immediately after and you can't stop them because you've already blown your limit break.

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10 sec of invuln isn't enough time to run up to a node from outside of attack range and capture it.

If your team is letting them that close to the node *before* engaging them, you have a different problem you should focus on rectifying first, before complaining about some dumb cheese.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

10 sec of invuln isn't enough time to run up to a node from outside of attack range and capture it.

If your team is letting them that close to the node *before* engaging them, you have a different problem you should focus on rectifying first, before complaining about some dumb cheese.

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Nice try attempting to move the goal posts to avoid the issue. In many cases you don't even need to pop your invuln before even getting to the node with how tanky paladin is. Even if you would have to pop invuln beforehand, you can still take a beating on the way to the node before going invuln and get about 4 seconds of invuln travel time to get to the node and start capping to abuse this nonsense because of how long the invuln is and how short the cap time is comparatively.

It's very obviously unintended and unbalanced design, very likely because SE seems to have put in virtually no effort into trying to balance any of the pvp changes for Frontlines. It's honestly pretty laughable that anyone would actually attempt to defend this as being 'intended and balanced', unless of course they're trying to cover for their own abuse of it, or they're just trying to be contrarian.

This is "working as intended" according to a bug report on JP forums.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/463109

does this mean that 10 paladins covering eachother and then one using invuln could direct 10 people of damage to one invunrable person?

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Originally Posted by BluCross

This is "working as intended" according to a bug report on JP forums.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/463109

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But it's "accepted bugs" on EN Forum
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-making-claims

:(

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Originally Posted by Xylira

Nice try attempting to move the goal posts to avoid the issue. In many cases you don't even need to pop your invuln before even getting to the node with how tanky paladin is. Even if you would have to pop invuln beforehand, you can still take a beating on the way to the node before going invuln and get about 4 seconds of invuln travel time to get to the node and start capping to abuse this nonsense because of how long the invuln is and how short the cap time is comparatively.

It's very obviously unintended and unbalanced design, very likely because SE seems to have put in virtually no effort into trying to balance any of the pvp changes for Frontlines. It's honestly pretty laughable that anyone would actually attempt to defend this as being 'intended and balanced', unless of course they're trying to cover for their own abuse of it, or they're just trying to be contrarian.

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That isn't moving the goalposts, it is directly responding to your claims. You may want to look up the precise definition of "moving the goalposts," because you misunderstand it.

If your team is letting a PLD, or even a pair of PLD, just walk up to the node without CC chaining them, pushing them back, slowing them, or otherwise killing them... that's on you, dude. If you force them to pop invuln 40 yards out, they won't have enough invuln left to cap the point before you can stun them again.

It is a problem, but not one nearly to the magnitude you portray it as. As with so many complaints here, there's a lot of PEBKAC stuff that needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Found the person who exploits glitches and makes up excuses to justify it.

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Ignore Gserpent. He doesn't know how to play and thinks everything is perfectly balanced.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Garbage design.

DRK / PLD in pvp are pure cancer seriously, how you can give them 10 seconds of immunity? There is actually 0 counter play to it unlike before the rework where SMN could delete their barriers.

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There's a lot of stuff right now that has little to no counter play to them and its pretty annoying. Hopefully they make some heavy changes in 6.2

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Garbage design.

DRK / PLD in pvp are pure cancer seriously, how you can give them 10 seconds of immunity? There is actually 0 counter play to it unlike before the rework where SMN could delete their barriers.

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These 2 jobs has no real damage.
They are now the tank job.
Unlike 5.0 where PLD is a mobile cannon that can easily kill any jobs, they are now just a damage absorb.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

If your team is letting a PLD, or even a pair of PLD, just walk up to the node without CC chaining them, pushing them back, slowing them, or otherwise killing them... that's on you, dude. If you force them to pop invuln 40 yards out, they won't have enough invuln left to cap the point before you can stun them again.

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You're trying to defend this terrible design claiming that it can be stopped, I've never claimed that it can't be stopped, in fact I have stopped it before. The issue that I and many other players have with this 'tactic' is that it's far too easy to make an attempt to abuse guardian this way and have it pay off, compared to the amount of effort needed to counter it by opposing players. Yes, it's possible for a team to be hyper vigilant and keep watch for any paladins and immediately try to focus them down, or to break their guard with a limit break if you have the right class around with their limit break available. But that still doesn't mean that paladins don't still have an unreasonable advantage specifically in Onsal Hakkar with the way their abilities work.

Or let me put it another way... playing in Onsal Hakkar matches against one or more paladins trying to abuse guardian to cap nodes isn't fun. Rather than focusing on the overall match and flow of battle, I feel like I have to hang back as a warrior or monk with my LB and CC up, scanning around for said paladins trying to abuse guardian, so I can attempt to disrupt them from stealing a cap out from under my team. It's irritating and boring gameplay having to specifically focus on countering guardian node capping.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

You're trying to defend this terrible design claiming that it can be stopped, I've never claimed that it can't be stopped, in fact I have stopped it before. The issue that I and many other players have with this 'tactic' is that it's far too easy to make an attempt to abuse guardian this way and have it pay off, compared to the amount of effort needed to counter it by opposing players. Yes, it's possible for a team to be hyper vigilant and keep watch for any paladins and immediately try to focus them down, or to break their guard with a limit break if you have the right class around with their limit break available. But that still doesn't mean that paladins don't still have an unreasonable advantage specifically in Onsal Hakkar with the way their abilities work.

Or let me put it another way... playing in Onsal Hakkar matches against one or more paladins trying to abuse guardian to cap nodes isn't fun. Rather than focusing on the overall match and flow of battle, I feel like I have to hang back as a warrior or monk with my LB and CC up, scanning around for said paladins trying to abuse guardian, so I can attempt to disrupt them from stealing a cap out from under my team. It's irritating and boring gameplay having to specifically focus on countering guardian node capping.

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Where am I defending it? What is it with you people and thinking in binary terms? I've literally said, multiple times, that it needs to be fixed and changed.

But I'm not interested in pointless whining or caterwauling over things that *do* have solutions. They are not ideal solutions and they are not a replacement for SE getting off their asses and fixing the actual problem, but there *is* counter-play available to this tactic.

You and the others like you need to learn to slow down and actually process what you're reading and responding to, *before* composing a response. If you can't or won't do that, then maybe a discussion board isn't the place for you.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

It's very obviously unintended and unbalanced design

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It is literally the same interaction it had for years when Cover was in PvP before it got taken out :p

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Garbage design.

DRK / PLD in pvp are pure cancer seriously, how you can give them 10 seconds of immunity? There is actually 0 counter play to it unlike before the rework where SMN could delete their barriers.

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Can I confirm if DRK can do the same thing? I had a game that had a DRK/WHM cap a gold point twice in the middle of fights between competing teams. On paper, Eventide should only be invulnerable to weapon skills, right? But I was quite sure abilities and LB didn't work. Not sure about CC.

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Originally Posted by Astraios

Can I confirm if DRK can do the same thing? I had a game that had a DRK/WHM cap a gold point twice in the middle of fights between competing teams. On paper, Eventide should only be invulnerable to weapon skills, right? But I was quite sure abilities and LB didn't work. Not sure about CC.

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Eventide shouldn't make them immune to anything. Eventide prevents the DRK from dying, but it doesn't protect them from damage or abilities like Hallowed Ground does.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Eventide shouldn't make them immune to anything. Eventide prevents the DRK from dying, but it doesn't protect them from damage or abilities like Hallowed Ground does.

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Yea. That was what I thought. But it seems almost like they could wade into a full alliance attacking them and still cap a point. I must be missing something.

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Originally Posted by Astraios

Yea. That was what I thought. But it seems almost like they could wade into a full alliance attacking them and still cap a point. I must be missing something.

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Nah, the closest that a DRK can is to use the Salted Earth outside of capping zone and pull the attackers in + Bind. In Onsal's mid it can pull them off the ramp or such.

Although DRK is more about enabling group wipes rather than capping

Is it really bad for players to be creative?
What about DRK is capable to to wipe a group with Eventide and Salted Earth at Secure’s ramp.?
Technically, 3 dorks can wiped entire 24 men aramp by drag them to fall to death.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Is it really bad for players to be creative?
What about DRK is capable to to wipe a group with Eventide and Salted Earth at Secure’s ramp.?
Technically, 3 dorks can wiped entire 24 men aramp by drag them to fall to death.

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Because i am telling to the person about DRK's utility just for info, not that it is the only class that can help wipe teams and I am giving an example.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

Because i am telling to the person about DRK's utility just for info, not that it is the only class that can help wipe teams and I am giving an example.

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Oh, I wasn't referring to your post.
I just find interesting that people is lacking on creativity.
Although, this patch put a limit on my solo ability on Frontline but it opens up so many possibiility
PLD strategy (Yes, JP confirmed it is work as intended) in Onsal Hakir
DRK strategy in Secure
MNK's Assassins' Creed style to remove BH players
There are many more yet to be discovered

"PLD strategy (Yes, JP confirmed it is work as intended) in Onsal Hakir"


Where? This was an exploit back in HW (talking about seal rock) that was fixed before. I want to see the post where they outright state it's okay now.

It's really pathetic that this exploit has lasted for months simply because it's only an issue in "old" pvp content and not their shiny new prized possession mode. If this was happening and being abusing in a raid there would have been emergency maintenance in one to two days.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

It's really pathetic that this exploit has lasted for months simply because it's only an issue in "old" pvp content and not their shiny new prized possession mode. If this was happening and being abusing in a raid there would have been emergency maintenance in one to two days.

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I mean, we got multiple hotfix patches to address CC balance. I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that SE apparently believes this is a "creative use of game mechanics," and not an actual problem. Who knows? Maybe JP players are better at dealing with it than we are?