It's clear SE doesn't care and Samurai will not be reverted in 6.2

I knew SAM wouldn't be reverted to its previous FUN style of play in 6.15 but the silence is beyond deafening at this point.

It's very clear they have no desire to change SAM back to how it was.

If they were going to do so for 6.2 we would know by now. They have no problem saying when specific things will be fixed or adjusted and it would have only taken a moment to add that for SAM.

They knew what they were doing during the live stream and they know what they are doing now. They simply don't care or respect the player base. We've seen this with healers, we've seen this with tanks and now we see it with DPS.

It's really sad to see the game go this way. If 6.2 doesn't at least have interesting and good content then I'm out for the foreseeable future. I can take lackluster content while having a fun job to play or great content with a not so fun job to play but not both.

DRG NIN MNK are next in line to get auto crit.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

DRG NIN MNK are next in line to get auto crit.

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Bootshine: "Always has been."

I can't believe people actually expected major class overhauls from a minor patch.

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Originally Posted by Flana

I can't believe people actually expected major class overhauls from a minor patch.

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People expected them to roll back mistakes or at least address they’ve made one. Crazy I know

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Originally Posted by Flana

I can't believe people actually expected major class overhauls from a minor patch.

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I wasn't expecting it. I was expecting some sort of comment on it by this point though.

Also...they seem to be able to do that for BLM PVP balance so it wouldn't be out of the question to simply roll back changes for SAM seeing as how the changes are universally despised.

SE and Yoshi P simply do not care, it's beyond obvious at this point. They were quick to address the housing "crisis" and are adjusting PVP every minor patch even though it's basically dying. Quick to ban out people who play the game non-stop for 3rd party programs while leaving all of the WoW players alone while they were modding their UI to the millionth degree. SE needs to get their heads out of their asses, because at this point the game is stagnating for the veteran players, and stagnating hard. This expansion brought nothing new to the table. Classes feel the same as they did for 3 years in ShB. Another 2-3 years of the same exact classes with 1 added button and no real balance changes made to the game. Healers are still ResidentSleeper, tanks are exactly the same, DPS are either getting the smackdown or have been completely reworked to be sleeper tier levels of boring. Guess I'll just play some different MMO when another gets released unless they drastically change the way the game is going.

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

I knew SAM wouldn't be reverted to its previous FUN style of play in 6.15 but the silence is beyond deafening at this point.

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join the crew with smn,mch and all the healers

Might as well pile FFXIV with the rest of the mediocre F2P MMO's when it comes to " dumbing down Classes and Ignoring player Feedback ". But then I'd have to pile SquareEnix with the rest of the smaller game/indie companies, which idk if that's fair to do... Then again money=money to them, opinions=opinions to us. Anyone can tell me if job-design and feedback standards are heading into that crap direction yet? or has been?

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Originally Posted by Kaseladen

People expected them to roll back mistakes or at least address they’ve made one. Crazy I know

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The changes to SAM were pretty major....I don't expect any potential adjustments until 6.2.

pve Job changes have never happened in X.15 patches and yes they are silent on the topic
they are silent on everything unless its some explosive topic like housing lottery 0 or some technical issue.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

pve Job changes have never happened in X.15 patches and yes they are silent on the topic
they are silent on everything unless its some explosive topic like housing lottery 0 or some technical issue.

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An extremely controversial change, which they KNEW would be controversial (see: the live letter reading of the changes), in which they asked us to "try" the changes and give feedback resulting in the forums, various mainstream discords, twitter, and youtubers all decrying the changes ISN'T an explosive topic?

They wrote up several paragraphs about how they accidently buffed BLM a bit too much in PVP, the absolutely could and SHOULD make a statement about the state of SAM. Any excuse is complete bullshit at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

The changes to SAM were pretty major....I don't expect any potential adjustments until 6.2.

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Stop with this. Oh no its 6.1x patch devs cant revert SAM changes. OFC THEY CAN AND SHOULD.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Bootshine: "Always has been."

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Phantom rush and stuff that gives you solar/lunar nadi will be auto crit by devs logic

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Originally Posted by Flana

I can't believe people actually expected major class overhauls from a minor patch.

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Yes from minor patch as 6.1 that gives no new savage tier i didnt expected major class overhaul.

After having not even heard a single peep about all rhe Samurai feedback from the devs, I'm think we're pretty much basically in the same boat Tanks and Healers have been in for years. Could be wrong, but the absolute radio silence is deafening. Especially when various other problems get immediately addressed. Just saying, "We hear you" or "we're working on it" or something would be nice at least. :/

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Stop with this. Oh no its 6.1x patch devs cant revert SAM changes. OFC THEY CAN AND SHOULD.



Phantom rush and stuff that gives you solar/lunar nadi will be auto crit by devs logic



Yes from minor patch as 6.1 that gives no new savage tier i didnt expected major class overhaul.

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I love oversimplification in this. At this point devs are primarily consistent. Big changes, overhauls etc. Happen in milestone/decimal patches with only minor tweaks at best happening in between those. Should the changes be reverted, probably. Don't really have horse in this race since when the patch dropped I was still in ARR so I wouldn't be able to use Kaiten in content regardless.

Calling 6.1 a minor patch solely because it didn't include new savage tier is disingenuous at best and just lying at worst. Outside of new Alliance Raid and new Ultimate Raid we had an overhaul to PvP and introduction of new mode, implantation of Duty Support for ARR and reworking the finale of the finale of 2.0. Yup definitely minor unimportant patch.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

I love oversimplification in this. At this point devs are primarily consistent. Big changes, overhauls etc. Happen in milestone/decimal patches with only minor tweaks at best happening in between those. Should the changes be reverted, probably. Don't really have horse in this race since when the patch dropped I was still in ARR so I wouldn't be able to use Kaiten in content regardless.

Calling 6.1 a minor patch solely because it didn't include new savage tier is disingenuous at best and just lying at worst. Outside of new Alliance Raid and new Ultimate Raid we had an overhaul to PvP and introduction of new mode, implantation of Duty Support for ARR and reworking the finale of the finale of 2.0. Yup definitely minor unimportant patch.

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On the one hand this is true; big class overhauls only occur outside of xpacs in the .1, .2, .3 etc. patches.

But, on the other hand, there have been notable changes in .xy patches, such as when Hagakure and Energy Drain were re-added in as skills following the release of savage Eden 1-4 in ShB. I think the expectation here is that something similar would have happened with Kaiten. Since there was precedent for a key skill being removed and then later re-added in (ED and Haga in this case) then why not with Kaiten too (and of course the consummate removal of auto-crits)? Such was the hope anyway.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that even though "only" Kaiten was removed, it had the feel of a major class overhaul due to how core it was. Well, less of an overhaul and more of a gutting, since nothing was added in it's place with the entire changes to SAM being subtractive, but you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

I love oversimplification in this. At this point devs are primarily consistent. Big changes, overhauls etc. Happen in milestone/decimal patches with only minor tweaks at best happening in between those. Should the changes be reverted, probably. Don't really have horse in this race since when the patch dropped I was still in ARR so I wouldn't be able to use Kaiten in content regardless.

Calling 6.1 a minor patch solely because it didn't include new savage tier is disingenuous at best and just lying at worst. Outside of new Alliance Raid and new Ultimate Raid we had an overhaul to PvP and introduction of new mode, implantation of Duty Support for ARR and reworking the finale of the finale of 2.0. Yup definitely minor unimportant patch.

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Hello white knight. If you were at ARR when 6.1 dropped then you probably have no clue about how content and max level works. Yes 6.1 is a minor patch for pve. Why? Savage content (the main thingy as max level content) is dead for months and no one cares about loot from alliance raids - you simply BUY cheap stuff from marketboard and trade it for gear that is same ilvl as alliance raid (might aswell with even better stats distribution). Ultimate is aswell side content, its not like every savage player jumped into it and already cleared.

And again. Ultimate? You think its ok to butcher class right before ultimate? Im sure there were statics that wanted to go SAM DNC comp and now SAM have 2 weeks to change to monk/nin .... Great patch btw.

if reverting was so easy they would have done it
but if you wanna think dev team hates you go off and complain when the next housing hotfix doenst bring back kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

if reverting was so easy they would have done it
but if you wanna think dev team hates you go off and complain when the next housing hotfix doenst bring back kaiten.

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If you don't think reverting is easy then you're not familiar with modern software development.

I'm not saying it doesn't need to be tested but in no reality should it be hard to do.

Edit: Additionally if they WERE going to do it and it was hard they would have said something already. Hence, the original point of this post: they aren't mentioning it which means it's not coming an SE doesn't give a shit about player feedback on this topic even though they asked for it.

I've said this on different threads but the dev team really needs a seperate job team, they clearly are out of ideas and are in "ease of access" mode when it comes to complaints on job changes.

I would rather someone else with fresh eyes look at the jobs, test them and try new things. Even if it didn't work, at least we would know that they aren't simply just removing something or trying auto crit on a skill.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Hello white knight. If you were at ARR when 6.1 dropped then you probably have no clue about how content and max level works. Yes 6.1 is a minor patch for pve. Why? Savage content (the main thingy as max level content) is dead for months and no one cares about loot from alliance raids - you simply BUY cheap stuff from marketboard and trade it for gear that is same ilvl as alliance raid (might aswell with even better stats distribution). Ultimate is aswell side content, its not like every savage player jumped into it and already cleared.

And again. Ultimate? You think its ok to butcher class right before ultimate? Im sure there were statics that wanted to go SAM DNC comp and now SAM have 2 weeks to change to monk/nin .... Great patch btw.

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So we start with name calling from an esteemed Veteran. Great way. You may be right honestly. From the end game focused PvE Savage Raiders this patch is minor... Just like every x.1 patch ever since they streamlined Raids in HW dividing them between normal/story version and Savage ones as you always get second tier for Savage at X.2. From that perspective wouldn't x.1 patch a perfect opportunity for change like this? Ultimately you just given players 4 months to get used to the situation and if needed get gear for another Job.

Yes it's a insignificant patch in the eyes of PvE Savage raiders but they're not the only ones playing the game. I've seen what happens when MMO becomes too focused on the end game and it's really not that fun.

Ultimately future is unclear. Silence is annoying but also kinda unsurprising especially when taking into account last two months had frankly bigger issues than SAM outrage.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

And again. Ultimate? You think its ok to butcher class right before ultimate? Im sure there were statics that wanted to go SAM DNC comp and now SAM have 2 weeks to change to monk/nin .... Great patch btw.

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2 weeks is extremely generous if you're going for BIS, unless you're just going to monk. They could've also expanded the tome cap, unlocked savage, solved a lot of problems. Nope, didn't even do that. 6.15, savage still is weekly locked. At this point, why? We're now 6 months from savage releasing, and a month or so from Dragonsong releasing, so why is savage still locked?

i can't speak for all classes but the fact that they pushed this Burst Meta rotation, Classes like Samurai (even before kaiten removal) was copping flack. Mainly because Samurai was more or less perfect in ShB. GNB is another class that suffered. The third shell and double down have made that class unfun to play

I love the " but it's a minor patch argument ". Sure, let's go with that.

Were any of the following issues done / addressed / fixed in any of the next major minor patches between 6.1 and 6.15?

• Housing lottery error
• PvP hacking cheating
• Lewd Adventure plates
• 3 times RMT announcements
• Overtuning Blackmage PvP, addressing it and Fixing it?

Never any changes of anything nor addressed nor fixed on minor patches btw...

Or do we mean " None-PvP Job changes? ". I have not played since say ARR 1.0 and read every patch note in history to know if they ever deviated from minor patch schedules to make PvE changes to Jobs. I care not for mythical schedules that we have to assume they abide to by some unwritten gospel rules vs what they shown to be capable of doing and what they should do. Call me a cynical Heretic.

Job Changes on minor patches unreasonable to request from a small indie company called SquareSoftEnix? when they asked feedback for it? okey then, how unreasonable is it to have these issues at the very least be acknowledged like the rest of the issues fixed in those minor patches?

Ah what do we know. We're all just some unreasonable paying customers with unreasonable complaints to their product. We're doing what we we're told, go to the forums btw, and yet it's still wrong. Can't express our frustrations anywhere to get an ounce of " maybe we're going to get heard " copium, without some " stfu " attitude from the next paying customer next to us who doesn't even care about these changes that probably doesn't even affect them. Ah well. Said my piece,... again.

It's almost like the changes to SAM, are here to stay, perhaps it's time to jump on some other bandwagon job.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Stop with this. Oh no its 6.1x patch devs cant revert SAM changes. OFC THEY CAN AND SHOULD.



Phantom rush and stuff that gives you solar/lunar nadi will be auto crit by devs logic



Yes from minor patch as 6.1 that gives no new savage tier i didnt expected major class overhaul.

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Are you new to this game? SE is very slow at making adjustments to jobs and they definitely don't make large adjustments in the middle of a content tier which right now is DSR. Expecting them to make any changes in such a small content patch such as 6.15 is simply a misjudgment on your part. Wait for 6.2 and if they don't make any changes by then, we can come to the conclusion that this is how SAM will continue going forward and decide if we want to keep playing or switch jobs. I personally will likely just go back to DRG for the next raid tier.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

It's almost like the changes to SAM, are here to stay, perhaps it's time to jump on some other bandwagon job.

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I'm not making that statement till after 6.2. They removed hagakure in ShB and we got it back later in the expansion so its not like the chances of sam getting kaiten back is zero at this time. Its just most of us logically understood we're still in the middle of a raid tier and they are not going to make any major adjustments until the next major patch.

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Originally Posted by Kaseladen

People expected them to roll back mistakes or at least address they’ve made one. Crazy I know

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What do you expect looking at their patch history?

Healers complain for years, nothing changed, it got worse...
MNK lost its identity completely and they don´t give af.
MCH and SMN... hahahahha or BRD now?!
Housing is getting ignored for ages and now they brought just another stupif bandaid.
The content is mostly copy & paste each addon, just some new shiny animations.
Complaints about dungeons or better braindead hallways are real, but do they care? No.
New classes after got released with an "easy to go" design. (GNB,DNC,RPR,SGE...)
The list goes on...

Only the majority of tank-mains seem to be fine with their classes but DRK. How? Because they´re braindead and broken af.

Who cares about some appealing gameplay and kind of ceiling, when you´re able to YOLO all day long...

well, one less job to gear up in next tiers, and one less job to lvl in the future

whatcha gonna do, eh?

I think if these changes aren't reverted or even addressed by 6.2, I have to unsubscribe. I know I could play other jobs but I'm sorry, none of them are quite like SAM. They broke SAM and will probably come for DRG next, which is the only non-SAM DPS I can enjoy because of its aesthetic. I have my SAM glamoured to look as much like a knight as possible, and DRG is the only job that comes close to that style. It may share gear with RPR but RPR has a completely different playstyle and aesthetic, I don't like it. Until and unless FFXIV ever gets something closer to the Retribution-spec paladin from WoW, I don't have a comfortable niche outside of DRG. And if that niche gets ruined by similar changes, I have to find a new MMO to put down roots in.

I'm chiming in to say that I much prefer the new SAM compared to the old one. Kaiten just felt like 1 button too many compared to how SAM plays now. My main is MNK... And MNK is the king of having useless abilities, lol. So, to me, removing a button press that doesn't really feel great is better than having that button constantly impeding the way it plays. The devs could just do nothing or do the wrong thing, which is what happened with MNK's Anatman and Six-Sided Star.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I'm chiming in to say that I much prefer the new SAM compared to the old one. Kaiten just felt like 1 button too many compared to how SAM plays now. My main is MNK... And MNK is the king of having useless abilities, lol. So, to me, removing a button press that doesn't really feel great is better than having that button constantly impeding the way it plays. The devs could just do nothing or do the wrong thing, which is what happened with MNK's Anatman and Six-Sided Star.

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I'm glad that you like it but the overwhelming majority of SAM mains don't share your opinion. I think most of us think Kaiten feels good to use because it gave Iaijutsus more juice, and more importantly it gave the Kenki gauge more than 1 use (Hissatsu: Shinten spam). Removing Kaiten is akin to making all MNK Nadis the same type, simplifying a job resource so much it may as well not exist.

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

I'm glad that you like it but the overwhelming majority of SAM mains don't share your opinion. I think most of us think Kaiten feels good to use because it gave Iaijutsus more juice, and more importantly it gave the Kenki gauge more than 1 use (Hissatsu: Shinten spam). Removing Kaiten is akin to making all MNK Nadis the same type, simplifying a job resource so much it may as well not exist.

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very true, Kaiten was The Skill that introduced the Kenki Resource to give the Player the option to boost the Damage Output on their own and also introduced the Concept of Kenki Management since You had to make sure that to have 20 Kenki for the next Iaijutsu, which in turn created a Kenki Iaijutsu Synergy an Aspect of the Samurai that since the 6.1 Kaiten Removal does not exist anymore and made way for monotonous Shinten Spam, which requires no planning/thinking outside of Press the Button! As Consequence one could ask with the Kenki Iaijutsu Synergy practicly non existent (outside of Hagakure, which just drains your Sen for more Kenki) what's the reason for Kenki to exist now? Shinten/Kyuten where just filler abilities that scimmed off excess Kenki for Single Target and AoE, Guren and Senei are the 2minute Busters that consume Kenki aswell yet still those where just bonus skills to dump excess Kenki into (maybe, plan to invest Kenki into those aswell yet with lvl70 Kenki Gain was so easy it became a No Brainer)..

here is a lil mind game.. count the times where you end up with 20 Kenki (with NOTHING to do with it) before doing an Iaijutsu... as for me it was way too many times!
They just have to #BringBackKaiten !

Honestly these changes have made enjoying the game for me impossible. I wouldn't be playing anymore if I didn't have a house and friends keeping me in the game. They ruined the only other two jobs I found fun and now they've ruined Samurai. I don't know how much longer I can put up with this before I just quit altogether.

At this point FFXIV has just become a glorified chat room for me.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I'm chiming in to say that I much prefer the new SAM compared to the old one. Kaiten just felt like 1 button too many compared to how SAM plays now. My main is MNK... And MNK is the king of having useless abilities, lol. So, to me, removing a button press that doesn't really feel great is better than having that button constantly impeding the way it plays. The devs could just do nothing or do the wrong thing, which is what happened with MNK's Anatman and Six-Sided Star.

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If your main is mnk then your opinion is irrelevant.

The APM without kaiten is nearly identical and the new rotation replaced kaiten with gyoten. Nothing changed in terms of APM, but everything changed in terms of interesting game design. Kenki is a pointless resource now.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

If your main is mnk then your opinion is irrelevant.

The APM without kaiten is nearly identical and the new rotation replaced kaiten with gyoten. Nothing changed in terms of APM, but everything changed in terms of interesting game design. Kenki is a pointless resource now.

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I absolutely, verily, wholeheartedly, unquestionably, definitely, undeniably, unequivocally, disagree.

I love... not being able to Kaiten my Tenka Goken and Ogi Namikiri during Dungeon and Fates that I loved farming. My god, I love not only not being able to Kaiten my low level dungeons when I have no Kyuten available? but also having to Kenki dump my AoE through a single target skill called Shinten! wow! gameplay.

Speaking of gameplay... Shinten! I love Shintening my Shintens into Shinten-ception! it almost sounds Shin-fully Shin-mazing!

Control your Kenki-bodily-fluids please, there's more... now that Kaiten is removed which btw is such an amazing change to make the oh-so unplayable Samurai FINALLY playable btw hurr-derp, I can enjoy my gameplay with a Tenka Goken cone AoE now being interactively-unteractively a Circle! to stand still while not Auto-Crit landing my Tenka Goken as a cherry on top!

Speaking of Auto-Crits that barely tickle my braincells... My Midare and Ogi-Namikiri hits so amazingly biggly! it is astonishingly kupoly-great! Do not take away my double Gyoten-Headbutt-Pokemon-Simulation-Opener please... that would really remove my enjoyment :D

:D ............... GFWE!!8AHG@82!3H@GTP!![W@EO!!IG!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

If your main is mnk then your opinion is irrelevant.

The APM without kaiten is nearly identical and the new rotation replaced kaiten with gyoten. Nothing changed in terms of APM, but everything changed in terms of interesting game design. Kenki is a pointless resource now.

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I think the opinion is relevant and outlines the issue: the changes feel like they were made for people who don't main SAM.

I'm reminded of when the latest MNK changes rolled out and while leveling the job and mentioned how I didn't think it was so bad in our FC chat only to be met with MNK mains lamenting the changes and a laundry list of things they wished were different or missed from the older play styles.

And they weren't wrong to say so. I played MNK casually and ultimately droped it once it's max level, my attachment and expertise of the job simply doesn't exist like theirs does.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Ultimate? You think its ok to butcher class right before ultimate?

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Highly preferable to massive balance shifts during prog.

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

I think the opinion is relevant and outlines the issue: the changes feel like they were made for people who don't main SAM.

I'm reminded of when the latest MNK changes rolled out and while leveling the job and mentioned how I didn't think it was so bad in our FC chat only to be met with MNK mains lamenting the changes and a laundry list of things they wished were different or missed from the older play styles.

And they weren't wrong to say so. I played MNK casually and ultimately droped it once it's max level, my attachment and expertise of the job simply doesn't exist like theirs does.

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Unfortunately, this has largely been their approach to every major job change. Instead of focusing on the players who already enjoy the game, they're desperately trying to "fix" things to bring in new players who never liked it to begin with. Look at Astro and the now gutted, boring card system. How about Bard and how DoTs simply exist nowadays and all the nuanced it once had was stripped away because things like Foe's Requiem was too hard for new players to manage. Machinist has been a mess for years now and they still can't figure out why. Nevermind, healers as a whole aren't designed for players who enjoy healing but made incredibly shallow for players who have no experience playing that to not get too "overwhelmed".

It's why I fear for Dragoon come 6.2. The job is in a great spot right now and all we keep hearing is how they want to make it less busy not because of Dragoon player complaints but for people who don't like Dragoon.

I miss HW DRG, but ya the way DRG is right now....I don't know what kind of redesign they could do as its overall fine atm and doesn't need any kind of changes to its design.

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

I'm glad that you like it but the overwhelming majority of SAM mains don't share your opinion. I think most of us think Kaiten feels good to use because it gave Iaijutsus more juice, and more importantly it gave the Kenki gauge more than 1 use (Hissatsu: Shinten spam). Removing Kaiten is akin to making all MNK Nadis the same type, simplifying a job resource so much it may as well not exist.

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I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.