Samurai needs love

Samurai needs something to help with them living. They are the least likely to survive out of all the melees at the moment since sams unlike the others have no way back out of fights. I would rather chiten go back to 50% or at least make it last longer at the current percentage

No, Samurai is exactly how damage dealers should be, medium defense. Samurai doesn't need a defensive boost, he needs instant casts, it's unberable in higher elo when the NIN runs like sonic, that alone would help SAM immense to fulfill his role as executer/burster. The whole problem with SAM is that all his skills are built around that the enemy is shit.

Edit:

Even if SAM were to receive buffs these should be focused on:

- Instant casts or at least lower them to 0.5 seconds
- Reworking Mineuchi eg Mineuchi does more damage the more Health the enemy has lost not the fucking other way around
- Reworking LB eg LB should be a 1:15 and have his instant kill removed as well as being guardable and just be true damage
- Buff Soten+Combo1 eg remove the garbage frostnova give movementspeed/slow the enemy and increase the potency by 1-2k

No, Samurai is fine

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

Samurai needs something to help with them living. They are the least likely to survive out of all the melees at the moment since sams unlike the others have no way back out of fights. I would rather chiten go back to 50% or at least make it last longer at the current percentage

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Is this a joke post? Serious question. Sam is the strongest melee pvp job in the game right now. It has TOO much going on for it.

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Originally Posted by Likethewind

No, Samurai is fine

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^ This. SAM in the right hands is one of the best equipped to pressure behind enemy lines and give numerical advantages @ the crystal.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

- Reworking LB eg LB should be a 1:15 and have his instant kill removed as well as being guardable and just be true damage

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While I agree with the initial sentiment, SAM LB is not an instant kill. If the debuff is active, it will do the the targets Full HP amount but is subject to any % increases, or more importantly, decreases. Ever had the the debuff up on you, braced for death and then wondered how you made it out alive with 5% HP? Thank your AST teammate's LB or yourself from <10 seconds ago for casting Horrid Roar. Both of which reduce the damage output of the SAM enough to survive.

This LB, at higher tiers of competition is actually pretty meh. Players that clock target beneficial status/LB bar can easily avoid the debuff by avoiding the sam directly or indirectly via AoEs.

I'd like to see SAM LB be changed to mimic the NIN LB in that if you catch it with debuff up, it's an auto incapacitation.

But I do agree that 120 seconds for such a predictable/avoidable punish is too long.

For the sake of perspective, I don't main SAM nor do I use it in Crystal Tier ranked matches.

Are you kiding? I've been Zantetsu'd 3 times in a single Frontline right now by 2 different SAMs.

If I so much as brushed a single Apex Arrow by them, I'd be Kuzushi'd. And hell, it seems like you can execute someone on another SAM's Kuzuchi, doesn't even need to be your own.

Before you ever think about buffing those absolute cretins, take their 1HKO away from them.

I do feel sam need some love with def.
Chiten is only instant button with 25% def and 5s only
Ogi Namikiri require casting 1,3s and 2 target for 8k shield
Kaeshi Namikiri require use Ogi first and 2 target.
Oka restore 5k hp but require 2 combo + soten + target in 5y + server tick

drg,mnk,rpr and nin all has instant def and escape ability. sam has none XD.

the sam lb is a noob trap so.....

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Originally Posted by Sawamura

I do feel sam need some love with def.
Chiten is only instant button with 25% def and 5s only
Ogi Namikiri require casting 1,3s and 2 target for 8k shield
Kaeshi Namikiri require use Ogi first and 2 target.
Oka restore 5k hp but require 2 combo + soten + target in 5y + server tick

drg,mnk,rpr and nin all has instant def and escape ability. sam has none XD.

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Yeah which is why sam needs more defensives in this range world since you'll get blasted if your team starts to lose or you need to get away to heal

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

No, Samurai is exactly how damage dealers should be, medium defense. Samurai doesn't need a defensive boost, he needs instant casts, it's unberable in higher elo when the NIN runs like sonic, that alone would help SAM immense to fulfill his role as executer/burster. The whole problem with SAM is that all his skills are built around that the enemy is shit.

Edit:

Even if SAM were to receive buffs these should be focused on:

- Instant casts or at least lower them to 0.5 seconds
- Reworking Mineuchi eg Mineuchi does more damage the more Health the enemy has lost not the fucking other way around
- Reworking LB eg LB should be a 1:15 and have his instant kill removed as well as being guardable and just be true damage
- Buff Soten+Combo1 eg remove the garbage frostnova give movementspeed/slow the enemy and increase the potency by 1-2k

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I get people are mad that they make a big oppsie and hit the sam when they have chiten up which is only 5 secs duration which leads you to get clapped

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I get people are mad that they make a big oppsie and hit the sam when they have chiten up which is only 5 secs duration which leads you to get clapped

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instant cast = 16k shield + doesn't block chiten, doesn't block heal = reacting in time and not wasting = smart
buffing chiten to 50% = still cast blocked, still enemy in africa when my cast is done = not reacting in time = have to guess = hope enemy is bad = dumb

brain big, if not buff chiten, unga bunga :O

https://i.imgur.com/EqT9fcy.jpg

My biggest issue with Sam is ogi namakiri. I can't get that cast off with the amount of CC+ KB in crystalline conflict. They also need a disengage ability like DRG and MNK.

My biggest issue with sam is that in order lb to be useful you have to use ANOTHER ability, have debuff proc on enemy and only after that you can use it. People can just see you pop shield press escape/change target and lb will be worthless 24k damage till another try when shield is up. I would rather get it more damage and remove instakill mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

My biggest issue with sam is that in order lb to be useful you have to use ANOTHER ability, have debuff proc on enemy and only after that you can use it. People can just see you pop shield press escape/change target and lb will be worthless 24k damage till another try when shield is up. I would rather get it more damage and remove instakill mechanic.

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The LB is instant cast DRG LB how is the damage useless? I have seen so many moments where SAM would kill multiple people if they sync it with other LB's but they always feel like they have to go for the Chiten+LB play. Also there are so many LB's/spells that SAM can freely turn into kills if they have LB up. For example jobs like GNB/SMN/SGE/DRG cannot press their LB without giving the opportunity for SAM to instantly retaliate with Chiten LB :p

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Originally Posted by Nanne

The LB is instant cast DRG LB how is the damage useless? I have seen so many moments where SAM would kill multiple people if they sync it with other LB's but they always feel like they have to go for the Chiten+LB play. Also there are so many LB's/spells that SAM can freely turn into kills if they have LB up. For example jobs like GNB/SMN/SGE/DRG cannot press their LB without giving the opportunity for SAM to instantly retaliate with Chiten LB :p

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Or you can press stuff like drill on mch with analyze and have 20k damage guranteed and you can combo it with other skills and even lbs. 24k damage is too low for big cd still. And for last part yeah i literally said that you just OUTPLAY sam lb by watching his shield....

24k is half a healthbar. IMO half a health bar in an AoE for using it suboptimally without kuzushi condition applied is not too weak

You don’t need to kill 5 players with it to win a fight, and you don’t even need to use it immediately to get effect out of it. Even when people watch LB charge and try to play around it, just holding onto it and chiten gives you a lot of control and safety, not to mention the picks you get when you do use it. Every single ability that’s pointed at the SAM and every AoE that might even clip the SAM is potentially instant death with the two up. When they do use it it’s still often multiple kills, and honestly even one or two kills is enough to turn the tide in a team fight anyway.

There is counterplay, but the counterplay is in many cases limited to letting the SAM freely attack your team while the abilities are up/cucking yourself from using your strong AoEs. This is definitely abusable by the SAM player, and rewards them for a correct read on exactly how long/how much the other team will hold back on trying to play around it.

Right now it’s either instantly game winning or only moderately effective depending on how well it’s used, with both effective counterplay available for the enemy team and mindgames available for good SAM players to take advantage of said counterplay for their own benefit. That’s not a bad state for it to be in.

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Originally Posted by Saucy_Jack

24k is half a healthbar. IMO half a health bar in an AoE for using it suboptimally without kuzushi condition applied is not too weak

You don’t need to kill 5 players with it to win a fight, and you don’t even need to use it immediately to get effect out of it. Even when people watch LB charge and try to play around it, just holding onto it and chiten gives you a lot of control and safety, not to mention the picks you get when you do use it. Every single ability that’s pointed at the SAM and every AoE that might even clip the SAM is potentially instant death with the two up. When they do use it it’s still often multiple kills, and honestly even one or two kills is enough to turn the tide in a team fight anyway.

Yes there is counterplay, but the counterplay is in many cases limited to letting the SAM freely attack your team while the abilities are up/cucking yourself from using your strong AoEs. This is definitely abusable by the SAM player, and rewards them for a correct read on exactly how long/how much the other team will hold back on trying to play around it.

Right now it’s either instantly game winning or only moderately effective depending on how well it’s used, with both effective counterplay available for the enemy team and mindgames available for good SAM players to take advantage of said counterplay for their own benefit. That’s not a bad state for it to be in.

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24k if its single target + you lose a 16k shield or 16k damage and a 16k shield - a case you can barely influence btw. 16k that is a little more than a single heal for a 1.3 second cast and ~700ms recast lock for a total of 2 seconds. It's so slow people just run out of range, it's so slow people guard before you even finish your cast, it's so slow that Mineuchi stun duration is - together with it's respective lock added - over before both casts are out in a game mode where AoE has 10 times less influence than single target.

In high elo people mark you, they have effects disabled and watch out for your lb bar, that means that 9/10 times people either lock you up with perma freezes, silence, stun and polymorph until you're dead or just a single person is marked or people stand way too spread. That is a whole limitbreaker with 2:15 cooldown for a single kill with a max of 2 usages if you use it immediately and do not die, that is NOTHING, hence you have to hold onto it and hope that the enemy is so bad that it actually pays up.

This is the exact reason why Samurai is so bad, it's a noob stomper an idiot remover, that's exactly why buffing his defensive is the wrong call. Samurai desperately needs a change to be less depended on having dumb ass enemies do dumb shit to enable you.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

24k if its single target + you lose a 16k shield or 16k damage and a 16k shield - a case you can barely influence btw. 16k that is a little more than a single heal for a 1.3 second cast and ~700ms recast lock for a total of 2 seconds. It's so slow people just run out of range, it's so slow people guard before you even finish your cast, it's so slow that Mineuchi stun duration is - together with it's respective lock added - over before both casts are out in a game mode where AoE has 10 times less influence than single target.

In high elo people mark you, they have effects disabled and watch out for your lb bar, that means that 9/10 times people either lock you up with perma freezes, silence, stun and polymorph until you're dead or just a single person is marked or people stand way too spread. That is a whole limitbreaker with 2:15 cooldown for a single kill with a max of 2 usages if you use it immediately and do not die, that is NOTHING, hence you have to hold onto it and hope that the enemy is so bad that it actually pays up.

This is the exact reason why Samurai is so bad, it's a noob stomper an idiot remover, that's exactly why buffing his defensive is the wrong call. Samurai desperately needs a change to be less depended on having dumb ass enemies do dumb shit to enable you.

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This I agree with. I love Sam, climbed to Crystal with it, and am trying to climb into top 100. But the LB is SO bad compared to something like Monk, it's wild. You have to just save it and hope to get it in during a crazy brawl where it can sneak kill 2-3 people. It's so easy for enemies to outplay it, and it does very little outside of the "insta kill" condition because Guard actually stops the "normal" damage.

Reduce the charge time on it to like 75-90 seconds, remove the "insta kill" condition, make it bypass Guard (but not remove it, so unlike Monk, you can't use it to enable focus fire). That's probably enough.

The value of SAM LB at higher tiers is in holding it. @ crystal tier, it's a safe bet that most of the enemy team is experienced enough to be aware your LB is up.

If a sam has LB up on enemy team when I'm playing, and I see Chiten Icon next to their name, I am actively avoiding attacking them unless they are CC'd and below 50%

This practically gives you autonomy to apply pressure behind enemy lines. It also ties the person up for a second or two for them to check party list. And if they don't and start attacking you, pop chiten. They'll stop. If they dont, kill them.

But test it out. There's a reason you can see enemies LB bar. Part of the reasoning behind SAM LB is directly tied to this.

"I have a grenade in my pocket. Touch me and it explodes, but only you die. Don't touch me and you still probably die; just slower."

If you can't make that work for you, then sam isn't for you.

The nerve of people to say Sam LB needs buff when DRG LB exists lol.....

Guess you didn't know NIN LB exists then.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

The nerve of people to say Sam LB needs buff when DRG LB exists lol.....

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It does need a buff. At higher tiers it's success rate is garbage. Any job with a barrier or additional purify mechanism can easily drop Kuzushi or pop barrier within 3 seconds. This means to be effective, they have to be executed one after the other, limitiing the number of targets that it can land on practically. Furthermore, its efficacy in an instance of counter-offensive, which is the purpose of most LBs, enemy team will most likely be at full hp / mp and with any barrier they'll live, and then pump their MP back to full health. not to mention Unless the map is could 9, the cooldown is the longest of any LB. I don't particularly enjoy SAM nor do I use it in ranked matches, so I don't have any bias towards it, for reference sake.

It should be like Ninja's LB with instant incapacitation

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Originally Posted by KickRox

It does need a buff. At higher tiers it's success rate is garbage. Any job with a barrier or additional purify mechanism can easily drop Kuzushi or pop barrier within 3 seconds. This means to be effective, they have to be executed one after the other, limitiing the number of targets that it can land on practically. Furthermore, its efficacy in an instance of counter-offensive, which is the purpose of most LBs, enemy team will most likely be at full hp / mp and with any barrier they'll live, and then pump their MP back to full health. not to mention Unless the map is could 9, the cooldown is the longest of any LB. I don't particularly enjoy SAM nor do I use it in ranked matches, so I don't have any bias towards it, for reference sake.

It should be like Ninja's LB with instant incapacitation

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No it doesnt. The instant KO gimmicks of Zantetsuken, Seiton Tenchu, and Chain Saw should not have even been a thing in the first place. It takes no skill to cheese or get lucky with such abilities and they should have no place in competitive PVP. And on top of having this ridiculous gimmick, Zantetsuken still has a higher potency than DRG LB (24k compared to 20k) and has the added effect of ignoring guard. Dragoons limit break is just as telegraphed if not more than Sam as well. Its near worthless save to save yourself when you feel close to dying and even then the latency issues of the game prevent even that aspect from being reliable. As a damage dealing ability, it will only kill people if you save it for when you burst the enemy into low hp and force them into guard. At that point you can pop the lb and kill them once the guard drops. This is highly predictable and countered. Sam and NIN still have the two best melee limit breaks. There are definitely jobs way worse off than both of those.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

No it doesnt. The instant KO gimmicks of Zantetsuken, Seiton Tenchu, and Chain Saw should not have even been a thing in the first place. It takes no skill to cheese or get lucky with such abilities and they should have no place in competitive PVP. And on top of having this ridiculous gimmick, Zantetsuken still has a higher potency than DRG LB (24k compared to 20k) and has the added effect of ignoring guard. Dragoons limit break is just as telegraphed if not more than Sam as well. Its near worthless save to save yourself when you feel close to dying and even then the latency issues of the game prevent even that aspect from being reliable. As a damage dealing ability, it will only kill people if you save it for when you burst the enemy into low hp and force them into guard. At that point you can pop the lb and kill them once the guard drops. This is highly predictable and countered. Sam and NIN still have the two best melee limit breaks. There are definitely jobs way worse off than both of those.

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Chainsaw I agree with. Chance has no place in a skills competition. Not sure what luck/chance has to do with either NIN or SAM LB. There's no RNG involved in either. NIN LB also has essentially 0 impact on a match other than to lock the NIN in animation for 2 seconds if it misses.. That's the point: High risk, High reward. Medium Cooldown. If your hp is 49.99% or below at the moment the NIN LB input reaches SE server, you die, even if your med kit's input hit the server the moment after. If you're calling that "luck" then so is anything to do with server ticks. SAM LB also has no element of RNG involved. So not sure what makes either of them a gimmick. TBH, it sounds like you have trouble identifying when Kuzushi lands on you. I'd recommend enlarging "Status info: enfeeblements" in HUD settings, along with "target info: status", and the size of the enemy party list in the Duty section of HUD layout when you're @ Wolves' Den Pier. You can also focus the SAM and use that to identify when they have Chiten up.

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Originally Posted by KickRox

Chainsaw I agree with. Chance has no place in a skills competition. Not sure what luck/chance has to do with either NIN or SAM LB. There's no RNG involved in either. NIN LB also has essentially 0 impact on a match other than to lock the NIN in animation for 2 seconds if it misses.. That's the point: High risk, High reward. Medium Cooldown. If your hp is 49.99% or below at the moment the NIN LB input reaches SE server, you die, even if your med kit's input hit the server the moment after. If you're calling that "luck" then so is anything to do with server ticks. SAM LB also has no element of RNG involved. So not sure what makes either of them a gimmick. TBH, it sounds like you have trouble identifying when Kuzushi lands on you. I'd recommend enlarging "Status info: enfeeblements" in HUD settings, along with "target info: status", and the size of the enemy party list in the Duty section of HUD layout when you're @ Wolves' Den Pier. You can also focus the SAM and use that to identify when they have Chiten up.

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I appreciate the advice on avoiding the SAM LB but its not necessary. I am fully capable of avoiding it unless they get lucky with a stray AOE on my part. I am also not trying to argue semantics here either. I called them cheesy or lucky. Chainsaw is obviously the latter while Zantetsuken and Seiton Tenchu are the former. Its basically a free noob killer move that takes no special skill in pulling off but when it pays off it pays off tremendously when going up against inexperienced or otherwise distracted enemies. When going up against more experienced players it becomes an ordinary LB thats still better than most of the other melee LBs. My point was never that it was unavoidable as it very much is. My point is insta kill abilities shouldnt be a thing in PVP in ANY form. It diminishes and lowers the skill level in competitive matches. If you wanna buff Sam LB fine but buffing it does not require keeping the insta kill gimmick intact. The LB not being an insta kill when you pop it is not justification for it needing to be buffed. Literally no other LB save one other even works that way.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

My point is insta kill abilities shouldnt be a thing in PVP in ANY form. It diminishes and lowers the skill level in competitive matches.

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Gonna just sit here and wait for the eventual NIN/SAM player to try and justify having an execute.

I've played dozens of PvP games in my life and I can't for the life of me think of any good ones that had instakill abilities similar to SAM's, or executes that had a threshold as high as NIN's. Hopefully the dev team realizes that these abilities are trash since they just poison casual/lower competitive matches, and become an annoyance at higher ones, but who am I kidding, that'll never happen.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

Samurai needs something to help with them living. They are the least likely to survive out of all the melees at the moment since sams unlike the others have no way back out of fights. I would rather chiten go back to 50% or at least make it last longer at the current percentage

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Uhm no. /10char

Idk why people are saying instakills or executes don’t/shouldn’t exist in PvP, you see them in a fair number of genres of PvP. The problem in FF14 isn’t having executes at all, it’s them being implemented really badly. They shouldn’t be chance based, powerful instakills should require high skill level to use, and viable counterplay with mechanical depth that can interact with other mechanics should exist.

For example almost all FPS games have had full hp instakill executes as a core mechanic for decades (headshots), and PvP games with similar game modes to CC like LoL also have fairly high threshold executes. Not to mention that bog standard burst acts as an execute but better in almost all PvP games anyway, if the player using it has any idea what they’re doing.

If you look at the examples of successful implementations of high HP executes or instakill mechanics I mentioned above, you’ll see those are the differences compared to how they’re implemented in this game. No one thinks headshots being full-health any-range on-demand no-CD instakills are an issue when the basic skill requirement and skill cap is so high. Executes in LoL aren’t the end of the world because they’re not chance based and have counterplay options like LoS behind teammates, being range/mobility limited, slow dodgeable projectiles that can miss, etc…

If FF14 is going to keep them, they to be a lot better designed than they are now, and also fix the netcode which is a problem that exacerbates a pretty wide range of issues in PvP right now including executes. If thats too hard, then obv just toss them out for mechanics that are less frustrating to deal with, but it’s not as if executes themselves are some cardinal sin against PvP game design.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

Samurai needs something to help with them living. They are the least likely to survive out of all the melees at the moment since sams unlike the others have no way back out of fights. I would rather chiten go back to 50% or at least make it last longer at the current percentage

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Samurai had bubble, self heal and damage reduction. And escape tools.

They're sturdier than Wars. So, I don't know. Seems like they have plenty of survivability.

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Originally Posted by Sawamura

I do feel sam need some love with def.
Chiten is only instant button with 25% def and 5s only
Ogi Namikiri require casting 1,3s and 2 target for 8k shield
Kaeshi Namikiri require use Ogi first and 2 target.
Oka restore 5k hp but require 2 combo + soten + target in 5y + server tick

drg,mnk,rpr and nin all has instant def and escape ability. sam has none XD.

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Mnk doesn't have a true defense buff, they still take the same amount of dmg whether riddle of earth is active or not.

So target enemy 6k shield 5s from thunderclap is a lie?