I am writing this post to get my opinion out there to the devs.I love your game thank you for all the amazing work.During 6.0 we asked them to make the raijus so that the proc wont be broken by weaponskills,they listened to us and responded bu giving us a much better change.They made it so that one of the raiju was no longer a gapcloser which is a much better implementation than what we were asking.So,I trust they devs.
I know 6.1 changes were implemented for balancing ninja in DSR ultimate.But, Despite understanding the reason I still believ 6.05 ninja was the best ninja ever.
The ninki management was better,the fact that you could put mug inside your 2 mins buffs window instead of right before it made the job feel more bursty,and there was higher element of skill expression and the skill ceiling was a bit higher too.Now all of that is gone because of the changes
Moreover,the job just felt more cohesive,since everything revolved around one cooldown,Not to mention the impact you hand on your party and how they used their 1 min burst.
In conslusion, I implore the devs to reconsider this change,eventhough I understand they had valid reasons to implement it in the first place.
Thank you.
Ninja changes
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05-15-2022, 08:06 PMAlnoAshenNinja changes
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05-17-2022, 01:55 PMaloneatsea
Huge agree. If Trick is proving to be too strong in one particular fight, nerf Ninja's personal damage a little bit -- don't nuke it's party utility. Trick is such an important ability, both for cohersion of how Ninjas play and what it brings to the table. I'd actually be really happy if Hyosho Ranryu was a bit weaker, because it could open up the opportunity to use Goka Mekkyaku on two targets. Currently, we only do our single-target rotation on two targets, which is really boring. Taking some potency off of Raijus as well means it might become worthwhile again to use Doton in two-target content. You almost never get to use your AOE abilities in difficult content, because we never have three-target+ fights outside of dungeons ):.
Yoshi-P said in a pre-6.0 interview that making all cooldowns two-minutes would be boring. Somehow, we're moving into that world anyway, and guess what? It's boring...
I implore the devs to reconsider these changes, and revert Ninja. Nerf it, by all means! 6.08 Ninja was already absurdly strong; 6.1 Ninja is beyond broken. Even if we went back to 6.05 numbers, I think that'd be fine. -
05-18-2022, 06:24 PMbutchersblockI miss double target optimisation so much. Thank god there's still Ninja in TEA I guess, but it's nowhere near enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
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05-21-2022, 07:36 PMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
Even then, I think back in Shadowbringers you would Katon/Hellfrog a lot. Given that Doton is an effective 1120 potency on two targets, unless you're 100% sure you're only going to get 3 ticks of Doton off (Doton is greater potency at 4+ ticks/12s+), you're going to use Doton over Katon 100% of the time. Hellfrog's potency is a joke, too... 320 potency on two-target vs Bhava's 350. And, of course, you'd never use Goka. It just feels wrong... -
05-22-2022, 07:03 AMbutchersblockYeah. Real damn shame about Goka especially, I really like its animation a lot more than Hyosho'sQuote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
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05-25-2022, 11:45 PMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
I completely agree! Katon and Goka's animations are some of my favourite in the entire game; especially when playing as an Au Ra, it feels like you're a proper fire-breathing dragon.
I really do think that if we're not going to change the potencies on (some) AOE abilities to make them gains on two-target, we need to get 3+ target Savage+ level fights. I want to use my coolest abilities in hard fights ): -
05-26-2022, 02:00 AMbutchersblockI'd rather avoid too many add phases and triple targets as it frequently devolves into people doing very annoying things to pad their numbers, I'd rather have Ninja's single target CD's nerfed to make aoes a gain on double target. Double target is imo the sweetspot where you can optimise without it being devolved into very unhealthy playstyles that screw over your teammates.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
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05-29-2022, 09:11 AMXRuecian
I really want to enjoy ninja. I have tried again and again. But everytime i get annoyed with some of the design choices (or leftover clunkyness from old iterations). And i end up giving up on it again and again. It's not really the difficulty of the class that i dislike, it just feels like there is a lot of unnecessary bloat that i have to use in order to play the class at a decent level.
For example: Why does Dream Within a Dream even exist? Its just another one of those "Push every 60s inside your burst window" buttons with no real synergy or purpose. Its just leftover from when they wanted it to be a stealth based class.
Same goes for Suiton. They clearly originally designed the job around being a stealth based class; but TODAY it is not really a stealth class. You don't actually utilize stealth on a ninja at all except to refresh mudras between pulls. So WHY do they still have skills locked behind stealth requirements at all? They should have removed suiton and the stealth requirement on Trick Attack long ago. This just feels like unnecessary unfun stuff i have to do every 60s. This doesn't add fun complexity to the job, its just an annoyance you have to deal with in your rotation.
Also a little salty that we have to work to keep up Huton for a 15% speed increase while monks get a passive 20% increase. Feels to me like Ninja should be rewarded with 20% (since it requires effort) and monk should get the 15%, or at the very least both should get 20%.
Worst of all though, is putting in all that effort to properly learn a difficult job, probably the most difficult of all to get the rotation and opening down on a high level, only to be have 'mediocre' DPS output. While classes like Samurai get top DPS while pushing 123. Kinda feels unrewarding :( -
05-30-2022, 08:12 AMbutchersblockthere's no way this isn't low quality baitQuote:
Originally Posted by XRuecian
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05-30-2022, 12:45 PMShurrikhanNIN has never been, nor has it ever pretended to be, a primarily stealth-based class. Ninja has instead been based primarily around Ninjutsu.Quote:
Originally Posted by XRuecian
They don't. A pillar of water is not Hide.Quote:
Same goes for Suiton. They clearly originally designed the job around being a stealth based class; but TODAY it is not really a stealth class. You don't actually utilize stealth on a ninja at all except to refresh mudras between pulls. So WHY do they still have skills locked behind stealth requirements at all?
Suiton remains a prior step to Trick Attack because most NINs find their core mechanic, Ninjutsu, fun --rather than "just an annoyance"-- and you'd otherwise have no 3-step mudras to interact with in ST (or even in AoE if those targets would die or move within 12 seconds).Quote:
They should have removed suiton and the stealth requirement on Trick Attack long ago. This just feels like unnecessary unfun stuff i have to do every 60s. This doesn't add fun complexity to the job, its just an annoyance you have to deal with in your rotation.
You hit 4 instead of 3 roughly every 4th combo. And that's hugely bankable, unlike the likes of Shifu.Quote:
Also a little salty that we have to work to keep up Huton for a 15% speed increase while monks get a passive 20% increase.
Pure bait likelihood rising. Or should we also steal other class's core mechanics and say we're more deserving because of a pre-popped Ninjutsu?Quote:
Feels to me like Ninja should be rewarded with 20% (since it requires effort) and monk should get the 15%, or at the very least both should get 20%.
You might just be bad at NIN. NIN currently has both the highest rDPS and the highest raw DPS parse in the game at time of writing (11.3k on P1S). Even without counting its party buffs, it can match SAM and BLM pound for pound. It's flagrantly overtuned.Quote:
Worst of all though, is putting in all that effort to properly learn a difficult job, probably the most difficult of all to get the rotation and opening down on a high level, only to be have 'mediocre' DPS output. While classes like Samurai get top DPS while pushing 123. Kinda feels unrewarding.
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To be clear, there's a fair bit I'm not fond of in NIN's later iterations, to the point that I much prefer Heavensward's gameplay but with some added elements of later expansions (new TCJ, Ninki spenders, earlier Bunshin that we'd want to align Ninjutsu away from as not to waste duration, Meisui) and perhaps with Mutilate pruned (but Shadowfang still on a 2nd-step combo finisher). Today, there's some button bloat, mechanics that exist seemingly just to get you out of other, more core mechanics (and actually diminish opportunities for skillful play by forgoing the more core forms of said mechanic), too little rotational depth, too little to do in the lulls between bursts, etc. But, on the whole, 6.05 NIN was a really solid job (even if 5.0, if it were simply balanced and received the TCJ and Meisui changes alone, would have been the iteration closest to my tastes). -
05-30-2022, 11:25 PMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by XRuecian
In the well-meaning assumption that this isn't bait, not all classes are for everyone. Mudras are the core gimmick around which Ninja is built; Trick being locked behind Suiton is part of that. If that is unappealing to you, that's fine, but that's an indication you just don't like the class, which is also fine. I personally hate how Samurai, but I'm not about to walk into a Samurai thread and demand they reduce the number of GCDs in their core loop to fit my personal preferences. I'm just gonna play Ninja instead.
If you don't like Dualcast, don't play Red Mage. If you don't like Dancing, don't play Dancer. If you don't like swapping between two different phases of gameplay, don't play Black Mage. If you don't like mudras, don't play Ninja.
What you find to be 'effort' and 'unrewarding' and 'unnecessary unfun stuff' is like, the whole fun of the job for me, and many other Ninja mains. That's fine! But that's not a problem with the job; you just don't mesh with it. -
05-31-2022, 03:10 AMRyuuZerothe 60s Cool Down makes it line up with Trick Attack and Kassatsu, that's it's Synergy!Quote:
Originally Posted by XRuecian
let me tell you a Part my Rotation, how it is after 6.1, I do not claim that it's the perfect rotation, but it helped me making sense of NIN, since the Famous Ninja Level Rework of Shadowbringers:
Suiton > Mug > Trick Attack > Dream within a Dream > Kassatsu > Hyosho Ranryu* > Ten Chi Jin > Ten > Chi > Jin > Meisui > Bawakhakra > Raiju > ect.
and the next Minute:
Suiton > Trick Attack > Dream within a Dream > Kassatsu > Hyosho Ranryu* > Raiton > Raiju > ect.
*sometime I follow Hyosho Ranryu up with a Raiton or Bawakhakra
but while reading this Thread makes me realize.. Suiton is kinda like Kaiten, a core mechanic. -
05-31-2022, 03:16 AMRyuuZero
originally I wanted to say that I like that Mug now does more then just being an OCD Attack with 40 NIN, but changing it to Trick Attack and changing Trick Attack into something else just feels wrong and should be switched, so that Mug does the Personal Damage Buff and Trick Attack stays Trick Attack.
I think that would be better than what we got with 6.1.. but seriously.. how did they mess-up 2 melee jobs in 1 Patch oO -
05-31-2022, 07:07 PMShurrikhanI'd honestly rather Mug just go back to its roots. Have it steal an "item" (the ability --not an actually an item, as to still be queueable-- then being hotswapped onto Mug's hotbar slot), perhaps updated or varied for flavor with expansions, of one of some 3 to 5 types, with consistent color schemes for their effects (green for a heal --usable also on others, blue for a self-shield/mitigation, yellow for resource generation, red for a bit of bonus damage, orange for a snare, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuZero
Reduce Mug's cooldown to 40 seconds, two charges. No inherent Ninki gain. In turn, just have each Ninjutsu generate 10 Ninki. That'd be plenty to get Bunshin rolling quickly between Suiton, Kassatsu, and TCJ. -
05-31-2022, 07:30 PMVentVanitasReminds me of GW2 Thief's steal. Gives a random attack depending on the enemy you steal from (bleeds, buffs, debuffs, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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05-31-2022, 09:28 PMRyuuZero40s Mug CD sounds bad, since it wouldn't line up with anything^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
now it lines up with Ten Chi Jin ^^ and theoreticly with Trick Attack, Dream and Kassatsu, which I certainly like. -
05-31-2022, 11:14 PMShurrikhanOn two charges. That means two uses on even minutes (opener, 120s, 240s, etc.) and one on odd minutes. Or are we to pretend that Perfect Balance / Masterful Blitz doesn't "line up with anything"?Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuZero
Let the obvious thief ability (not "Ninki boost," "Not Ninki raid buff," but "Mug") have its flavor. It can be more than just a lockstep part of a 2-minute burst macro without losing alignment. ^^ -
05-31-2022, 11:16 PMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by RyuuZero
Suiton is one of if not the defining mechanics of Ninja. An entire mudra (of which there can only be a maximum of seven) devoted to a single ability. Admittedly, it was two abilities in the past, but they shared a cooldown, and Sneak Attack was likely removed because Trick Attack was superior in pretty much every way. There just wasn't a use case for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I kinda like the idea you've got here, honestly. Ninja's rotation is incredibly static as it is, so adding something vaguely akin to a proc would do a lot to make things just a fraction more interesting. RNG is a bit of a cursed term, but I personally really enjoy the 'proc' classes Dancer and Red Mage, so I think this would be a flavourful, if minimal impactful ability. The main problem I can see with it is that if it stocks an ability, you're locked out of using the other charge until you consume that item. Additionally, you might not want to use that self-heal or mitigation right then and there, but you'll overcap on charges if you don't. Still, I really like the concept. I think it's a much better of the Mug's presence than what we currently have.
I do disagree with the lack of Ninki gain, though -- you've obviously though out your changes fairly well, as you'll double-weave Trick and Bunshin in your opener (assuming Huton's Ninki gain isn't killed when you Hide), and still maintain most of the potency gain. This does have a flow-on effect of every Bunshin only being available within Trick as opposed to just before it, which means if you're plugging the standard Hyosho + 2 Raiton + 2 Raiju into your odd windows, you're missing out on a Bunshin-boosted basic GCD if you're trying to minimise DwaD drift. I guess you could just accept that DwaD will drift and lead into your Trick window with Hyosho, but it's not ideal. The other issue I see with it is that this is going to lead to way more Ninki generation over time than Mug ever provided. Three mudras a minute = 30 Ninki a minute = 60 Ninki every two minutes. 20 Ninki might not sound like much, but it's there, and worth roughly 140 potency. That, and it feels like we're overloading Mudras by making them responsible for having their own effects as well as being a part of your Ninki generation management. On one hand, it's a nice solution if you're really dead-set against there being a Ninki gainer in Ninja's kit, but the complexity it will introduce doesn't sound particularly fun to me. One of the nice parts of mudras in my opinion is that they don't give you gauge. By giving them Ninki gen, literally every GCD ability in the Ninja's kit will increase your gauge. This means if you ever end up in the ideal situation of entering Trick with 100 gauge, you're forced to double-weave Trick -> Bhava, because anything else you press will overcap you on gauge. If Trick comes off cooldown later in your weave window, you have to clip or use Bhava earlier.
I dunno, my complaints might seem kinda...small? Edge-casey? But I do think that mudras not being tied to gauge generation is a good thing. I'm trying to imagine it in my brain and it just feels wrong, for reasons I can't exactly articulate as succinctly as I'd like to.
To me, the most obvious solution is to just... put the Ninki gen on a different button. Preferably its own button. The charges on that would be great too, adding some flexibility on when you want it.
A 40s cooldown means that two charges have an effective 80s cooldown, and three charges have an effective 120s cooldown. Suddenly it lines up, yeah? Most likely, you'd save two Mugs for just before your two-minute windows, and one Mug for just before your one-minute window. 40s cooldowns are no problem -- the point of the charges is that you don't have to use them on cooldown, but they allow you to if you want, and make your rotation infinitely more flexible.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuZero
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05-31-2022, 11:29 PMShurrikhanNinki gain would be far higher with what I suggested earlier, spitball though it be. At present, we do 11 Ninjutsu per 2 minutes (6 naturals, 2 Kassatsu, 3 TCJ), which would be an increase of 60 Ninki per 2 minutes relative to the Ninki gain on Mug.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
You could, however, level that increase out just by having that instead (10 Ninki per Ninjutsu instead of 5 more per AE/AC) be the effect of Shukiko III, as we tend to about 9.8 casts of AE or AC per minute, thus generating ~100 Ninki per two minutes from the current trait. At that point, you'd have roughly the same effect over time, just more burstily as to better suit getting Bunshin out fast an early.
It's impossible to "kill" Ninki gain, from using Hide after Huton or otherwise, but I imagine you'd make it so that Ninjutsu only generates Ninki while in combat.
And at that point, voila, we can actually have Mug be a thematic skill instead of just bloat action we take as necessary only because of our more recent obsession with having access to any and every ability within 4 GCDs of starting combat (despite Mug originally affording only half a Bunshin cast). -
05-31-2022, 11:40 PMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Good point! I'd forgotten to take into account our other Ninjutsu casts outside of our standard 3-per-minute charges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Oh, by this I was meaning they'd pull a Doton and just reset your gauge upon using Hide. I'd hope they wouldn't do it, but god knows with these devs.
To clarify, are you suggesting we remove Ninki generation from our base GCDs, and put it all on mudras? That's quite different from how I interpreted your original statement, and I'd feel a lot different about that. -
06-01-2022, 01:49 AMShurrikhanI'm suggesting that instead of increasing AE/AC Ninki gen from 10 to 15 with Endwalker's Shukiko III trait, we put 10 on each Ninjutsu used in combat (not each mudra). The result would be near identical, just more aligned with burst.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
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06-01-2022, 02:18 AMAlnoAshen
I thank you guys for reading my post,and a lot of you have commented the changes you would like to see in the current iteration of ninja,and thats ok,thats your opinion but this was not my intention in creating this post.
My purpose in creating the post was to say that 6.05 was an amazing version of the ninja,a job I love.The synergy in between each skill was amazing and it had a profound effect on each party it joined. Almost every single job in game would play differently if there was a ninja in the party,this is what I miss.
But,that being said,In saying this it would seem I have become one of those people who are never happy no matter what so I would like to take my post back.I want to say ninja is fuctionaly unchanged gameplay wise from 6.05 and so it still feels really really amazing to play,so please just dont dont change it any further. -
06-01-2022, 11:36 AMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Mm, yeah, I still don't like this idea. Having gauge generation on every single one of your abilities doesn't sound even remotely fun to manage. You get more Ninki overall, which doesn't really solve anything, given we already generate tons of it, and your burst windows become that much more tight without increasing the complexity of your rotation outside of Trick windows.
I just don't understand why you're so opposed to having a very basic gauge gainer on a long-ish cooldown. It doesn't even need to be something you can use in combat. Maybe you can only use it outside of combat (or it has a long cast that's only instant outside of combat, like Reaper's Soulsow), so it's main use is to kick off Bunshin, or be used to gain gauge during downtime. -
06-01-2022, 12:31 PMShurrikhan
Again... no, it would not give Ninki on "every single one of your abilities". I specified ONE, not all. Not every NIN ability is Ninjutsu; that name describes ONE ability. The Ninki generated per two minutes, meanwhile, would be nearly identical between getting 10 Ninki per Ninjutsu (110 per minute) and an extra 5 per AE/AC (~102 per 2 minutes).
I'm not "so opposed" to having a skill that only generates resource; I simply dislike skills being thematic in name alone.
If Perfect Balance (Blitz being separate), for instance, merely gave full Chakra, would that feel satisfying? It'd still be worth hefty potency, but would it have anything to do with balance? Would it offer any new gameplay loops? That's what a Mug that merely gives Ninki and a dab if direct potency feels like to me. Nothing about it fits its name. Nothing about it shouts Rogue. And if all that were irrelevant, why wouldn't it be given as a NIN skill, named, in Japanese for every localization, after some swift unarmed strike technique? -
06-01-2022, 02:10 PMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
My apologies, I should have been more clear - I was referring to abilities on the GCD, which with your suggested changes, would all grant Ninki.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Which is why I said your Mug changes were a great idea, and suggested moving the Ninki gain onto another button. -
06-01-2022, 02:23 PMShurrikhanI've literally never said that. I said Ninjutsu. Only Ninjutsu.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
Shukiko I "increases Ninki Gauge by 5 upon successfully landing certain weaponskills or completing certain combos."
Shukiko II "increases Ninki Gauge by 10 upon successfully completing a combo with Aeolian Edge or Armor Crush."
Shukiko III "Increases Ninki Gauge by 15 upon successfully completing a combo with Aeolian Edge or Armor Crush."
My suggestion was ONLY to replace Shukiko III's current effect (written above) with "While in combat, increases Ninki Gauge by 10 upon completing any Ninjutsu." That produces nearly the exact same amount of Ninki per average minute, just more burstily. And at that point, we don't need to use up a button just on being able to burst out 50 Ninki early in the fight.
Ninjutsu do(es) NOT include any and all Ninja abilities, let alone GCDs. It refers only to the attacks normally produced by hitting the Ninjutsu button or via Ten-Chi-Jin: Fuma Shuriken, Katon, Raiton, Hyoton, Huton, Doton, Suiton, Goka Mekkyaku, and Hyosho Ranryu.
And I'd be okay with that. I just think that function is utterly unnecessary (fine, yes, but unnecessary) and a bit of waste to spend a whole button on.Quote:
Which is why I said your Mug changes were a great idea, and suggested moving the Ninki gain onto another button.
Edit: For similar reasons, I would argue that our 2 Raijuu skills should optionally replace Armor Crush and Aeolian Edge while available (if taken off any and all hotbars, then they replace those skills; otherwise, they do not), since the stacks are otherwise wasted anyways, and that Huraijin and Armor Crush should be consolidated. The latter is pretty easily done: simply increase Armor Crush's base potency, siphoned from its combo bonus (same total potency), and change its 30s Huton refresh via "Combo Bonus" to just 30s Huton generation as an "Additional Effect". -
06-01-2022, 04:12 PMaloneatseaMy point is that currently, outside of ninjutsu casts, every GCD ability Ninja has currently grants Ninki. Your basic combo does, Raijus do, Throwing Dagger does, Phantom does, and Huraijin does. By adding Ninki to Ninjutsu casts as per your suggestion, every single GCD a NIN can make will increase the Ninki gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Your changes don't specify that every GCD ability will increase the Ninki gauge, but without changing anything else, your changes will lead to every GCD ability increasing the Ninki gauge, unless further changes are made.
I hope this helps to clarify what I've been trying to say, unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere? -
06-02-2022, 10:49 PMMisplaced_Marbles
I guess this isn't entirely relevant to the topic, but anyway, was changing places of jin and chi in mudra combos a mix up or something? Not like it changed anything since you can just change their places on your hotbar for the same old combo, but nothing else that makes sense other than it being a mistake comes to mind.
Edit: Huh, turns out I was the one who mixed them up. Whoops...