My message to DEVS about job balancing.

I want to speak to job balancing team. Are u in captivity of your greedy superiors? If so give us a sign, because changes of classes is simply not smart. Man, who loves this game cannot think off nonsense, which you did to Samurais in 6.1. No one asked you about it and its saying a lot about your competence. I'm so angry, i can't find words for this changes. And now you ignoring my brothers and sisters Samurais for 2 week, pretending you don't see our suffering. I hope you will find strength inside you to change the direction of job balancing to a different path, wich will lead to receiving more fun from playing and learning a job. Im sorry for being rude, but it's what i feel, and i can't silence myself.

There there. Welcome to the club of "SAM 6.1 change is so fucking ridiculous people had to make a forum account to speak up".

Seems like they seriously believe they can just hide until everything blow past. Fucking pathetic.

Jobs getting easier is nothing new. It has been going on since Stormblood.
Some were streamlined in very good ways, for example the removal of Heavy trust that wasn't engaging. But not all were good.

HW was convoluted , it made sense they never wanted to go back to that kind of difficulty.
Which wasn't exactly difficult, but more about micro management almost (if not all) jobs had a DoT, every job had buffs, sometimes multiple such as MCH that needed to chain 3 of those.
Some jobs had a boring buff to maintain, think about WAR buff or RPR debuff that somehow survived.

SB deleted a lot of old actions to make the jobs easier. Some jobs were quite hard of with a very tight burst window. But it was alright and made sense for a lot of jobs. MCH didn't had to chain 3 buffs.
But a lot of job lost some complexity, many jobs lost their dot for example. Since we got gauges, it was a fair trade.

ShB went a bit further and already crossed lines with some jobs. We can think of DRK and MCH, while their rework was welcome they both suffered from automated tools that brought nothing to the gameplay.
DRK Dark side is now so useless it could be invisible you wouldn't fail to keep it at 100% uptime.
LS and AQ being terrible design choices, they met their limitation within the exact same expansion, at 5.1 already they had problems. We're in 6.1 and these problems remained unfixed.


EW simply went too far.
MCH and DRK barely got anything despite their reworks supposed to be a "new base for future expansions".
SMN got a rework that is a big middle finger to the veterans.
Healers were still ignored despite the addition of SGE.
SAM lost their identity and their gauge went from the best to among the worst.
NIN is getting reworked each patch, Trick attack is finally nerfed to 120, get ready to see Mudras being gone in 7.0.
MNK lost a lot of complexity despite ShB 5.4 rework supposed to be a "new base for future expansions"

This is the result of SQEX simplifying the jobs again and again over the expansions.
And they already knew about it, many complains were left ignored in ShB.
Today it blows up to their faces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep

There there. Welcome to the club of "SAM 6.1 change is so fucking ridiculous people had to make a forum account to speak up".

Seems like they seriously believe they can just hide until everything blow past. Fucking pathetic.

---

I absolutely loathe gaming forums. (maybe all forums, actually) But I've been here every day, on the forlorn hope there'd be a response, (consisting of, 'Ok, we're reverting it & we'll fix our issues with the class after more thought, taking into consideration the very good suggestions you've all given, & btw, thanks for the feedback.')

Hope springs eternal!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

I absolutely loathe gaming forums. (maybe all forums, actually) But I've been here every day, on the forlorn hope there'd be a response, (consisting of, 'Ok, we're reverting it & we'll fix our issues with the class after more thought, taking into consideration the very good suggestions you've all given, & btw, thanks for the feedback.')

Hope springs eternal!

---

Healers have been complaining about the role's design since Shadowbringers, and Stormblood also had complaints but was more mixed rather than largely negative. Nearly every change we've seen since the end of HW has felt like something in direct opposition to the feedback given about healing both on the English forums and the Japanese forums. There seems to be this weird resistance to wanting to acknowledge the forum feedback in any way, shape, or form, so it's very difficult to understand where the player feedback they are listening to is coming from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep

Seems like they seriously believe they can just hide until everything blow past. Fucking pathetic.

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It’s worked for them with healers. Who’s to say it won’t work for this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Healers have been complaining about the role's design since Shadowbringers, and Stormblood also had complaints but was more mixed rather than largely negative. Nearly every change we've seen since the end of HW has felt like something in direct opposition to the feedback given about healing both on the English forums and the Japanese forums. There seems to be this weird resistance to wanting to acknowledge the forum feedback in any way, shape, or form, so it's very difficult to understand where the player feedback they are listening to is coming from.

---

I hope it isn't Reddit! Or the game will devolve utterly into cute/naughty memes forever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Jobs getting easier is nothing new. It has been going on since Stormblood.

HW was convoluted , it made sense they never wanted to go back to that kind of difficulty.
Which wasn't exactly difficult, but more about micro management almost (if not all) jobs had a DoT, every job had buffs, sometimes multiple such as MCH that needed to chain 3 of those.
Some jobs had a boring buff to maintain, think about WAR buff or RPR debuff that somehow survived.

SB deleted a lot of old actions to make the jobs easier. Some jobs were quite hard of with a very tight burst window. But it was alright and made sense for a lot of jobs. MCH didn't had to chain 3 buffs.
But a lot of job lost some complexity, many jobs lost their dot for example. Since we got gauges, it was a fair trade.

ShB went a bit further and already crossed lines with some jobs. We can think of DRK and MCH, while their rework was welcome they both suffered from automated tools that brought nothing to the gameplay.
DRK Dark side is now so useless it could be invisible you wouldn't fail to keep it at 100% uptime.
LS and AQ being terrible design choices, they met their limitation within the exact same expansion, at 5.1 already they had problems. We're in 6.1 and these problems remained unfixed.


EW simply went too far.
MCH and DRK barely got anything despite their reworks supposed to be a "new base for future expansions".
SMN got a rework that is a big middle finger to the veterans.
Healers were still ignored despite the addition of SGE.
SAM lost their identity and their gauge went from the best to among the worst.
NIN is getting reworked each patch, Trick attack is finally nerfed to 120, get ready to see Mudras being gone in 7.0.
MNK lost a lot of complexity despite ShB 5.4 rework supposed to be a "new base for future expansions"

This is the result of SQEX simplifying the jobs again and again over the expansions.
And they already knew about it, many complains were left ignored in ShB.
Today it blows up to their faces.

---

I see it. Actually i quit playing in heavensward, because i went to travel in real life and returned only 3 months ago to find that game had changed significaly. I found that my previous favourite job - monk have lost his GL mechanic and i don't like it anymore. I started to play SAM. 7 years in my travels i dreamed that someday i will play this job, since i first saw it in SB trailer. And i played it with so much joy. I cleared Stormblood and SB content and then 6.1 came and destroyed it. When i read that they removing kaiten it all was like im in a bad dream, like i'm in parallel reality, in a realm of absurd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s worked for them with healers. Who’s to say it won’t work for this.

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Then we must all become united and fight empire, like Eorzea did!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s worked for them with healers. Who’s to say it won’t work for this.

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It’s partly too many people used to games hardly changing regardless of feedback as a whole, but also that the FF14 playerbase tend to not be very vocal or critical about these sorts of things. With more of an outcry we would be able to reach further, and hopefully things can change soon. I expect more from FF14 because of how great it is, and I want to see it get better. I want to imagine the developers want to do the same, we just have to get louder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

It’s partly too many people used to games hardly changing regardless of feedback as a whole, but also that the FF14 playerbase tend to not be very vocal or critical about these sorts of things. With more of an outcry we would be able to reach further, and hopefully things can change soon. I expect more from FF14 because of how great it is, and I want to see it get better. I want to imagine the developers want to do the same, we just have to get louder.

---

Healers have been loud for 6 years though. Look how big the threads are advocating for change, and Yoshi P recently answered a question from healers,so they know about it, they just refuse to do anything about it.

And it sucks that it takes so long for changes to be made, but Monk has slowly been getting updates(some better some worse), and even Living Dead got addressed after who knows how long.

I do hope they actually work on the Healers as well as all the jobs, I don’t know what’s going on over there but hopefully they’ll start making changes sooner than later. I wouldn’t wish for any job to stay bad forever.

It made me cringe when yoshi said to asmon and rich about do these devs of other games even play their own game. Don’t get me wrong, I love ff14. yoshi and devs do some really great things but the lack of care and out of touch when it comes to jobs is getting out of hand. The issue with healers has gone on way too long and the dumbing of other classes is hurting the game significantly imo. It feels like to me that the NA forums doesn’t exist to the dev team at all

Healers are really the only job mains that get completely ignored... and DRK mains up until two weeks ago. I'm reasonably confident that they won't necessarily revert the Kaiten change but will replace it with something that's functionally similar, as long as there actually is a rework in 6.2. MNK and SMN get reworked every 3 patches so I'm sure they'll eventually land on something that people like again.

Please look forward to being able to enjoy your job again for one and a half raid tiers in the near future : D

Lol held in captivity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireon999

I see it. Actually i quit playing in heavensward, because i went to travel in real life and returned only 3 months ago to find that game had changed significaly. I found that my previous favourite job - monk have lost his GL mechanic and i don't like it anymore. I started to play SAM. 7 years in my travels i dreamed that someday i will play this job, since i first saw it in SB trailer. And i played it with so much joy. I cleared Stormblood and SB content and then 6.1 came and destroyed it. When i read that they removing kaiten it all was like im in a bad dream, like i'm in parallel reality, in a realm of absurd.

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Ah yes.. Slow clap and entrance Ive been saying this since SB and Now they see lol

Note Grease wasn't gone till Shb that vacation was longer then you thought jk
but Such devastation this was not my intent maybe the rose goggles are gone now
Maybe that 6 months of not having content did something to people or maybe the other 6 months of no content
who can say at this point but Ill be here watching the chaos and whether is dies or ignites us all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Healers have been loud for 6 years though. Look how big the threads are advocating for change, and Yoshi P recently answered a question from healers,so they know about it, they just refuse to do anything about it.

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wasn't the response to "we want more engaging DPS mechanics as an healer" an literal "if you want more engaging content go play ultimate" ? think that's the response to that question.

It's a weird thing because that comment was more relating to more of a "if you think healing is easy on even some of the hardest content, Ultimate will be sure to test you" sort of thing, at least when I saw the clip. It certainly isn't the best response overall though as even if a healer goes into ultimate content, of course you're expecting to be engaged...but what about the content we tend to do on the daily? That should really be more of a focus since more people will be focused on dungeons/alliance raids, whereas savage comes ever so often and ultimate is a big rarity. Plus making healers have some more dps options really wouldn't hurt considering dps is the name of the game...but it's quite an uphill battle when it comes to trying to get some complexity back in the core jobs rather than hoping for the content alone to give that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireon999

I see it. Actually i quit playing in heavensward, because i went to travel in real life and returned only 3 months ago to find that game had changed significaly. I found that my previous favourite job - monk have lost his GL mechanic and i don't like it anymore. I started to play SAM. 7 years in my travels i dreamed that someday i will play this job, since i first saw it in SB trailer. And i played it with so much joy. I cleared Stormblood and SB content and then 6.1 came and destroyed it. When i read that they removing kaiten it all was like im in a bad dream, like i'm in parallel reality, in a realm of absurd.

---

To be fair Monk might have lost Greased Lightning and 4/6 positionals, which I agree was a bad move in both cases, but playing Monk in Stormblood and Shadowbringers was basically a 5 year exercise in frustration where the devs implemented terrible actions or skills that actively went against what the playerbase wanted, then doubled down on those terrible decisions even when they proved unpopular while eliminating emergent gameplay (the TK rotation, which was divisive probably but still more popular than 4.0 base monk). Greased Lightning was fun in Heavensward, but in those intervening years it was miserable because Monk's kit for it was built specifically for GL upkeep to fail when other jobs had kits built for success. The devs didn't respond to the angry Monk playerbase until the Monk playerbase fully snapped and turned the DPS forum into the "Why have you neglected Monk for nearly 3 expansions" echo chamber in the way that Samurai players are currently doing around Kaiten.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

To be fair Monk might have lost Greased Lightning and 4/6 positionals, which I agree was a bad move in both cases, but playing Monk in Stormblood and Shadowbringers was basically a 5 year exercise in frustration where the devs implemented terrible actions or skills that actively went against what the playerbase wanted, then doubled down on those terrible decisions even when they proved unpopular while eliminating emergent gameplay (the TK rotation, which was divisive probably but still more popular than 4.0 base monk). Greased Lightning was fun in Heavensward, but in those intervening years it was miserable because Monk's kit for it was built specifically for GL upkeep to fail when other jobs had kits built for success. The devs didn't respond to the angry Monk playerbase until the Monk playerbase fully snapped and turned the DPS forum into the "Why have you neglected Monk for nearly 3 expansions" echo chamber in the way that Samurai players are currently doing around Kaiten.

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Thank you for explaining me what happened in my absence! It seems that the most suffered from simplifiyng politic jobs are Drk, healers, smn and sam? Also i don't understand why ninja lost so many melee attacks. Its almost a mage now. And i think mch changed significantly since HW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireon999

Thank you for explaining me what happened in my absence! It seems that the most suffered from simplifiyng politic jobs are Drk, healers, smn and sam? Also i don't understand why ninja lost so many melee attacks. Its almost a mage now. And i think mch changed significantly since HW.

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Summoner has had the problem of what amounts to development Schizophrenia. Every expansion has basically been an entirely new job at the top level while old mechanics accumulated and nothing really played well with each other.

Samurai's development history has actually been fairly smooth until recently. It was more or less perfect in Stormblood, and the only issues in SHB people had with it was that Shoha was kind of a niche skill for a capstone skill and that Tsubame Gaeshi locked the rotation into rigid 60 second loops rather than the more flexible Stormblood rotation (which is only something that high end raiders cared about). Shoha got fixed almost immediately (as a Monk player I can barely imagine it only taking one patch for feedback to be received and your problems addressed) but that fix set up Samurai for the problem it actually had in Endwalker, way too many buttons. The long and the short of the Kaiten removal issue is that Samurai does have substantial issues with button bloat because there's a glut of actions that are fundamentally identical down to the actions sharing a cooldown, but one action is only used in AOE and the other is only used in Single Target. The devs were coming from a place of trying to promptly address those complaints by removing Kaiten, but in practice they targeted the wrong skill. If the current level of anger keeps up then I imagine it'll see a fix in 6.2. Not quickly, but still faster than how most jobs get fixed which can be measured in years or expansions.


MCH had the problem of being reworked for Stormblood's broad design of adding Gauge's to every job, but the devs didn't actually think out how MCH's gauge would work. That was kinda true for the gauges for jobs not named Samurai/Redmage which were designed with their gauges in mind, but MCH got the shortest end of the stick with it because for the first I want to say 2 major patches MCH basically had no clear playstyle on how to engage with its Heat gauge. There was basically no difference between overheating vs not overheating. When they finally tweaked its numbers so that there was a definitive playstyle it was incredibly janky because of how it interfaced with the games pretty bad ping issues and it was the least popular job and sitting in the same tier of people not wanting to play them regardless of their actual performance, causing it to get reworked again in Shadowbringers. At that point, it changed pretty dramatically from a job where you cram everything you had into a Wildfire Window into a very simple job where you just use actions as they came off cooldown. It still wasn't popular, but it wasn't outlier levels of unpopular in the way that it and Monk were previously so the devs called it a success and that's essentially the current design for it now.

I actually can't speak much to DRK/Healers/Ninja, since I don't play Tank/Healers to any appreciable degree beyond just leveling them in my spare time and I just don't like playing Ninja so I've never paid it much attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Samurai's development history has actually been fairly smooth until recently. It was more or less perfect in Stormblood, and the only issues in SHB people had with it was that Shoha was kind of a niche skill for a capstone skill and that Tsubame Gaeshi locked the rotation into rigid 60 second loops rather than the more flexible Stormblood rotation. Shoha got fixed almost immediately (as a Monk player I can barely imagine it only taking one patch for feedback to be received and your problems addressed) but that fix set up Samurai for the problem it actually had in Endwalker, way too many buttons. The long and the short of the Kaiten removal issue is that Samurai does have substantial issues with button bloat because there's a glut of actions that are fundamentally identical down to the actions sharing a cooldown, but one action is only used in AOE and the other is only used in Single Target. The devs were coming from a place of trying to promptly address those complaints by removing Kaiten, but in practice they targeted the wrong skill. If the current level of anger keeps up then I imagine it'll see a fix in 6.2. Not quickly, but still faster than how most jobs get fixed which can be measured in years or expansions.

I actually can't speak much to DRK/Healers/Ninja, since I don't play Tank/Healers to any appreciable degree beyond just leveling them in my spare time and I just don't like playing Ninja so I've never paid it much attention.

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You hit the nail on the head with these. That's basically what happened. As for the the DRK issues, it went from being a fairly busy job with how Dark Arts worked before, but it was still unique and every tank didn't play exactly the same. In ShB, they basically remade DRK to be diet WAR. It was weaker and lost all of its good self-sustain by making Abyssal Drain on a cooldown as long as Equilibrium. And Delirium was changed to be a watered down version of Inner Release, allowing the spam of gauge abilities freely for a short period of time, where you weave all the oGCDs it had to make up for damage as DRK had no such damage increase like Inner Release did with the dh/crit.

As for SAM, yes. If the issue was solely button bloat, there are at least 6 abilities that do the same thing but are for specific single target or aoe encounters, which in itself isn't bad, nor is it even actually all that bad of a bloat (i play on controller). With the rotation being what it is in EW, they could easily apply these redundant skills as transformed procs over Shinten/Kyuten. Senei/Guren to be more specific.

I personally think Meditation stacks should have it's own evolving button in the same vein as iaijutsu does with Sen. It just cleans up the bar without changing what's already in place to such an extent that players don't need to unlearn literal years of muscle memory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

You hit the nail on the head with these. That's basically what happened. As for the the DRK issues, it went from being a fairly busy job with how Dark Arts worked before, but it was still unique and every tank didn't play exactly the same. In ShB, they basically remade DRK to be diet WAR. It was weaker and lost all of its good self-sustain by making Abyssal Drain on a cooldown as long as Equilibrium. And Delirium was changed to be a watered down version of Inner Release, allowing the spam of gauge abilities freely for a short period of time, where you weave all the oGCDs it had to make up for damage as DRK had no such damage increase like Inner Release did with the dh/crit.

As for SAM, yes. If the issue was solely button bloat, there are at least 6 abilities that do the same thing but are for specific single target or aoe encounters, which in itself isn't bad, nor is it even actually all that bad of a bloat (i play on controller). With the rotation being what it is in EW, they could easily apply these redundant skills as transformed procs over Shinten/Kyuten. Senei/Guren to be more specific.

I personally think Meditation stacks should have it's own evolving button in the same vein as iaijutsu does with Sen. It just cleans up the bar without changing what's already in place to such an extent that players don't need to unlearn literal years of muscle memory.

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I don't know how they find button bloat in SAM, when i have less buttons on my SAM then on my Drk and Ninja. I read some of your posts in another threads and think that your ideas are very good.

SAM has more DPS buttons than DRK and putting things on your cross-hotbar makes them harder to keep track of even if you set up your UI for it. For defensive cooldowns, you don't have to keep track of them as much as damaging ones so you can afford to put them in a place where they're more out of view.

It's a legitimate concern, but the solution has always been to consolidate more skills into AoEs rather than removing ones. Every time, AoEs are what causes the bloat. NIN has it worse than SAM in terms of button bloat, sure, but that is actually part of what makes the Kaiten removal so baffling. Both jobs have that problem.

I never felt like samurai was bloated - maybe because the kit felt so clean before - everything had a purpose, but I got curious and decided to see how its button count compared to other jobs that I'd leveled to 90 and what I found surprised me.

35: Paladin

34: Dark Knight, Samurai (without Kaiten), Ninja

33: Gunbreaker, Black Mage

32: Warrior, Reaper, White Mage

31: Dancer, Red Mage, Sage

30: Dragoon, Monk

Ninja definitely feels bloated to me, but I was shocked that paladin has more buttons than samurai now that Kaiten is gone. I also would have guessed that Dragoon had more buttons than it apparently does and would have thought that Warrior and White Mage would have less.

Note that this "button count" tally includes all the role actions.

Here's a thought...why don't they prune some role actions to fight button bloat instead of whittling away at the abilities that actually make jobs unique?

Tanks: Any chance we could get by without Shirk? Is Provoke not sufficient for agro management? If it isn't, could it be made to be? Maybe we could even get rid of Rampart and just give each tank a second charge of their job's unique mitigation cooldown.

Melee: Do we really need Second Wind AND Bloodbath? Maybe they could be combined and perhaps have multiple charges to keep the effective cooldowns the same?

Ranged: Do we really need Foot Graze AND Leg Graze? Maybe we could even get rid of both of them?

Casters: Does anyone actually use Sleep?

Healers: Does anyone actually use Repose?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I never felt like samurai was bloated - maybe because the kit felt so clean before - everything had a purpose, but I got curious and decided to see how its button count compared to other jobs that I'd leveled to 90 and what I found surprised me.

35: Paladin, Ninja

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Where are you getting the 35 number for Ninja? Excluding role actions, I'm only counting 26. Even including the six role actions, that's still only 32.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

Where are you getting the 35 number for Ninja? Excluding role actions, I'm only counting 26. Even including the six role actions, that's still only 32.

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Just recounted and verified 35 (also including Limit Break - probably should have noted that in the post - my bad).

Your profile says you're level 70 - maybe that's the disconnect? You get Meisui at 72, Bunshin at 80, Forked Raiju at 90, and Fleeting Raiju at 90.

Oh! But I counted Bunshin twice because I never removed it from the hotkey it originally was before they merged it with Phantom Kamaitachi - my bad! So Ninja was 35 before that merger but is now 34 - will update my post - apologies for the inaccuracy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fireon999

I want to speak to job balancing team. Are u in captivity of your greedy superiors? If so give us a sign, because changes of classes is simply not smart. Man, who loves this game cannot think off nonsense, which you did to Samurais in 6.1. No one asked you about it and its saying a lot about your competence. I'm so angry, i can't find words for this changes. And now you ignoring my brothers and sisters Samurais for 2 week, pretending you don't see our suffering. I hope you will find strength inside you to change the direction of job balancing to a different path, wich will lead to receiving more fun from playing and learning a job. Im sorry for being rude, but it's what i feel, and i can't silence myself.

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No,

I like SAM changes, and serious about it.

I hope more of the same happens to every other job.

Devs,

Please keep going! These people are reluctant for change & wish to remain staggered & stubborn

What I'd like to see for all jobs is to unify single target and AoE actions. AoE is just not a prominent aspect of FFXIV's design and continuing the departmentalized stance on single target and AoE actions is just odd to me because you only ever need one or the other, never both.

An easy one that's been brought up a lot with Kaiten being talked about is simply merging Shoha and Shoha II as an AoE action with fall off. In other instances, we could instead keep certain AoE actions but give them a value in single target as well so that they are a part of the rotation, such as making Bio Blaster's DoT something you want to alternate with in. Hellfrog Medium could use some kind of use. It's a really cool animation and we never get to use it.

Even with GCD combos there's room to merge. For MNK, you could have Bootshine upgrade into Shadow of the Destroyer, Twin Snakes upgrade into Four-Point Fury, and Snap Punch upgrade into Rockbreaker--each of these has fall off damage, and thus you've pruned 3 buttons without actually taking anything away. You could still take the AoE route when there are multiple enemies, but it would really only need a small amount of tweaking to ensure that nothing actually changes.

I'd like to see something like this done sooner rather than later in hopes that this additional space deters the design team from feeling the need to prune tools that we like about our jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I never felt like samurai was bloated - maybe because the kit felt so clean before - everything had a purpose, but I got curious and decided to see how its button count compared to other jobs that I'd leveled to 90 and what I found surprised me.

35: Paladin

34: Dark Knight, Samurai (without Kaiten), Ninja

33: Gunbreaker, Black Mage

32: Warrior, Reaper, White Mage

31: Red Mage, Sage

30: Dragoon, Monk, Dancer

Ninja definitely feels bloated to me, but I was shocked that paladin has more buttons than samurai now that Kaiten is gone. I also would have guessed that Dragoon had more buttons than it apparently does and would have thought that Warrior and White Mage would have less.

Note that this "button count" tally includes all the role actions.

---

My NIN is only in the 60s and it's always felt crowded for me. PLD too, but that was more the case when ShB happened. Everything else listed I don't have much of a problem with on controller with both toggle features on, I have plenty of space.

But yeah, things like that are why no one expected them to come for SAM with such an excuse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Just recounted and verified 35 (also including Limit Break - probably should have noted that in the post - my bad).

Your profile says you're level 70 - maybe that's the disconnect? You get Meisui at 72, Bunshin at 80, Forked Raiju at 90, and Fleeting Raiju at 90.

Oh! But I counted Bunshin twice because I never removed it from the hotkey it originally was before they merged it with Phantom Kamaitachi - my bad! So Ninja was 35 before that merger but is now 34 - will update my post - apologies for the inaccuracy!

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I'm Level 90 on another character. Just to make sure I'm not going insane, can I list them to see what you're counting that I'm not?

Spinning Edge, Shade Shift, Gust Slash, Hide, Throwing Dagger, Mug, Trick Attack, Aeolian Edge, Death Blossom, Ten, Ninjutsu, Chi, Assassinate = Dream within a Dream, Shukuchi, Jin, Kassatsu, Hakke Mujinsatsu, Armor Crush, Huraijin, Hellfrog Medium, Bhavacakra, Ten Chi Jin, Meisui, Bunshin = Phantom Kamaitachi, Forked Raiju, Fleeting Raiju.

That's my 26, and it bumps up to 32 including the six role actions. I'm counting Bunshin/Phantom and Assassinate/DwaD as one button because they, well, share a button.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

Spinning Edge, Shade Shift, Gust Slash, Hide, Throwing Dagger, Mug, Trick Attack, Aeolian Edge, Death Blossom, Ten, Ninjutsu, Chi, Assassinate = Dream within a Dream, Shukuchi, Jin, Kassatsu, Hakke Mujinsatsu, Armor Crush, Huraijin, Hellfrog Medium, Bhavacakra, Ten Chi Jin, Meisui, Bunshin = Phantom Kamaitachi, Forked Raiju, Fleeting Raiju.

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The ones you listed:
1. Spinning Edge
2. Shade Shift
3. Gust Slash
4. Hide
5. Throwing Dagger
6. Mug
7. Trick Attack
8. Aeolian Edge
9. Death Blossom
10. Ten
11. Ninjutsu
12. Chi
13. Dream Within a Dream
14. Shukuchi
15. Jin
16. Kassatsu
17. Hakke Mujinsatsu
18. Armor Crush
19. Huraijin
20. Hellfrog Medium
21. Bhavacakra
22. Ten Chi Jin
23. Meisui
24. Bunshin
25. Forked Raiju
26. Fleeting Raiju

Role Actions:
27. Second Wind
28. Leg Sweep
29. Bloodbath
30. Feint
31. Arm's Length
32. True North

General:
33. Sprint
34. Limit Break

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

The ones you listed:
1. Spinning Edge
2. Shade Shift
3. Gust Slash
4. Hide
5. Throwing Dagger
6. Mug
7. Trick Attack
8. Aeolian Edge
9. Death Blossom
10. Ten
11. Ninjutsu
12. Chi
13. Dream Within a Dream
14. Shukuchi
15. Jin
16. Kassatsu
17. Hakke Mujinsatsu
18. Armor Crush
19. Huraijin
20. Hellfrog Medium
21. Bhavacakra
22. Ten Chi Jin
23. Meisui
24. Bunshin
25. Forked Raiju
26. Fleeting Raiju

Role Actions:
27. Second Wind
28. Leg Sweep
29. Bloodbath
30. Feint
31. Arm's Length
32. True North

General:
33. Sprint
34. Limit Break

---

I see, so you're including generic actions as well as abilities. That's all good, I was just confused as to what was/wasn't being counted :). Thanks for the clarification!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

I see, so you're including generic actions as well as abilities. That's all good, I was just confused as to what was/wasn't being counted :). Thanks for the clarification!

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Yep, anything that's on our hotbars because imo they should be thinking about pruning some of the role actions instead of job actions. I'm definitely not advocating for cutting Sprint or Limit Break, but I am counting them towards "button bloat" since they're taking up space on our bars. =P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Tanks: Any chance we could get by without Shirk? Is Provoke not sufficient for agro management? If it isn't, could it be made to be? Maybe we could even get rid of Rampart and just give each tank a second charge of their job's unique mitigation cooldown.

Melee: Do we really need Second Wind AND Bloodbath? Maybe they could be combined and perhaps have multiple charges to keep the effective cooldowns the same?

Ranged: Do we really need Foot Graze AND Leg Graze? Maybe we could even get rid of both of them?

Casters: Does anyone actually use Sleep?

Healers: Does anyone actually use Repose?

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The thing is that while these role actions are situational, some highly more than others, none of them really take up important real estate. You keep them mapped in inconvenient but consistent slots, because it's not like you need to re-learn where you keep them between jobs or press them often. Even sleep, repose and foot graze, although practically useless, will do nothing for my overall hotbar layout if removed. It's stuff like AST having a bazillion 120s/60s redundant cooldowns to track that make hotbars a mess.

I just saw 6.11 patchnotes and its obvious, that these mediocrities you calling devs just told us that they don't care about our feedback. Not a good choice in long term perspective. I wish them all the bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Here's a thought...why don't they prune some role actions to fight button bloat instead of whittling away at the abilities that actually make jobs unique?

Tanks: Any chance we could get by without Shirk? Is Provoke not sufficient for agro management? If it isn't, could it be made to be? Maybe we could even get rid of Rampart and just give each tank a second charge of their job's unique mitigation cooldown.

Melee: Do we really need Second Wind AND Bloodbath? Maybe they could be combined and perhaps have multiple charges to keep the effective cooldowns the same?

Ranged: Do we really need Foot Graze AND Leg Graze? Maybe we could even get rid of both of them?

Casters: Does anyone actually use Sleep?

Healers: Does anyone actually use Repose?

---

Tanks; Honestly, I would rather just improve it. Shirk used to actually serve a purpose back in Stormblood, but its mostly useless now simply because tanks build up too much enmity. Shirk just needs to actually do its job a lot better...if not for tank management where sometimes I do indeed need the Shirk since I can't trust the other tanks often, but also to occasionally deal with a lazy DPS and Healer. Also Rampart being universal is great and useful, a second charge could be ok but unless they get moved up in levels, I'm not too sure entirely. I won't discount the possibility.

Melee; If Second Wind actually healed for a lot I'd like for both...but I don't mind this idea either since Bloodbath is amazing.

Ranged; Don't get rid of them, replace them. Palisade and Hawk's Eye(nerfed version) as a comeback would prove very fruitful. They already lack in buttons as is though so removing isn't a great idea so much as replacing.

Casters; It comes in handy in clutch but I really do wish it didn't break so easily...but it saved my Black Mage hide when the tank and healers fail their jobs. However bringing back Erase and maybe Drain as a role action with charges(or just one use on cooldown) being an OGCD and actually healing for a bit would be nice since Casters could use some buttons still but they would be much more useful.

Healers; Yeah I wouldn't mind the Stormblood Cleric Stance to come back honestly...

I would say a lot of the button bloat can be dealt with on the jobs themselves, like Reaper's Enshroud turning into Communio during the Enshroud State, or Black Mage's Ley Lines turning into Between the Ley Lines when the circle is up, or Machinist's Hypercharge becoming Heat Blast upon use. There are actual buttons that can be rolled together but bring about ways to bring in actual useful buttons. Removing buttons entirely though is not the best move, replacing with something useful is better to try and restore some sort of complexity with the game.

I have 2 weeks of subscribtion left, i think it will be my last days in this game.

the thing is, a lot of buttons you never use, so you can not add that to your primary hotbar, like sprint for example or LB can be on an seperate hotbar.
PLD as was said is 35 buttons apparently.
but you don't need a lot of those buttons on an regular basis, like shield lob, shield bash, cover, LB and Sprint.
that is 5 buttons less to 30 buttons, which fit easily on an 2 hotbar controller setup (which should be standard) since 1 full hotbar on an controller is 16 buttons, 32 for 2 hotbars.
You could argue Interject could also be removed since it's not that often you use it in an fight, but more often than a stun for example.

the thing is, this isn't about button bloat or action bloat, this is about them not being able to balance SAM around Kaiten properly, that's why it's so often you see SAM in places on the DPS charts it shouldn't be.
No other job really has this button that buffs all weapon skills by 50%, combine that with crit/dh chances.
I can see where they're coming from, but either wait with removing it, or give us something in return.
This feels like an half assed attempt since now they're like "let's trinkle potency here and there and see when it falls in line" so SAM will be balanced without Kaiten in probably 6.35 orsomething.
Why can't there be an PTS for these sort of changes, so you got people testing the jobs potency before it goes live, that way they can be more drastic without going overboard.