[SGE] Addersting Revamp

I’m no stranger to the SGE related conversations that pop up from time-to-time and have been at odds with the part of the community that’s content with Addersting being a mobility resource, but I believe I have found an answer where all of us can have exactly what we want—A SGE with a more meaningful GCD rotation, access to decision-based mobility options, and an engaging reward system that cannot just be used as a burst dump. In addition to the summary, I have the full action list here for anyone interested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Change Summary:

Removed Actions:
- Physis & Physis II (Kind of)
- Pepsis
- Taurochole

Prominently Changed Actions:
- Eukrasian Dosis I/II/III
- Soteria
- Dyskrasia
- Toxikon
- Toxikon II
- Holos
- Krasis

New Actions:
- Diagnosis II
- Prognosis II
- Eudipsia
- Cardiorrhexis
- Paroxysm
- Chirugia
- Cardiotomy
- Sarcotripsy

Total Buttons:
Job Actions: 23
Role Actions: 6

Minor Changes to Note:

The changes for this concept were balanced around Dosis III having a potency of 300 to compensate for the increase in DPS options and raid buff synergy. Diagnosis and Prognosis now upgrade and have potencies of 550 and 400 respectively as well as generate Addersgall when used. This is largely to make them more useful for salvaging a terrible situation and more forgiving on learning SGE players who may rely on them as clutch heals.

Soteria has changed and now applies 4 stacks of Soteria to self and all nearby party members. Soteria acts as a slightly weaker Kardia on the whole party, healing with a potency of 120 on top of Kardia when casting offensive spells.

Eudipsia is a new action that consumes 1 Addersgall to restore 14% of your maximum MP. Since SGE has a few more higher MP cost spells, this acts as a better way to spend Addersgall overflow or recover from KO.

With the revamped Addersting system, Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis will be used more frequently with advantages, and thus a few healing resources were pruned. This isn’t too extreme and will also come into effect with the Holos rework.

Revamped Addersting

Addersting is challenging to balance effectively. As it stands, Addersting is not a reward that’s worth the effort of generating outside of downtime. Making Toxikon II DPS neutral simply causes Eukrasian Diagnosis to become superior to Dosis III and inverts the button spam situation largely. Here’s the solution...

Generating Addersting:

- Eukrasian Dosis I/II/III now applies a buff to the SGE called Addercoil which lasts 30 seconds. Casting Eukrasian Diagnosis or Eukrasian Prognosis while under the effects of Addercoil consumes the buff and generates an Addersting. This is the main way of generating Addersting.

This filtering process creates a soft restriction to Addersting generation while also giving you the full 30 seconds between each Eurasian Dosis I/II/III to find the best moments to heal with Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis, but this is also not required every 30 seconds for optimization.

- Dyskrasia has changed completely. It is now an OGCD action that consumes 1 Addersting and enables the use of Toxikon II or the new action Cardiorrhexis. This has a cooldown of 20 seconds, and the effect lasts 20 seconds. If you do not cast Toxikon II or Cardiorrhexis in that duration, the buff will restore your lost Addersting.

This new Dyskrasia acts as an additional filter that prevents players from sitting on Addersting until raid buff windows and spending them all at once.

Addersting Spenders:

- Toxikon replaces Dyskrasia at level 46 as your main AoE button that doubles as a mobility tool. Potency upgrades to align with Dosis I/II/III, deals 50% less damage to remaining enemies, and costs 700 MP. It does not require Dyskrasia to be used nor does it consume Addersting.
- When Dyskrasia is used, Toxikon upgrades into Toxikon II (learned at level 50). Potency upgrades to always be twice your current Dosis I/II/III, deals 50% less damage to remaining enemies, and costs 0 MP.

At level 66, Cardiorrhexis is learned—the first part of the SGE continuation combo, turning into Paroxysm for one use once cast. At 76, Chirugia is learned, which acts as the OGCD second half of the combo. Here are the specifics:

- Cardiorrhexis: GCD, 1.5 second cast time. Deals damage with a potency of 380 to one enemy. Has a 60 second recast time. Requires Dyskrasia. Changes to Paroxysm and enables Cardiotomy.

- Cardiotomy: OGCD action. Deals damage with a potency of 180.

- Paroxysm: GCD, 1.5 second cast time. Deals damage with a potency of 550 to one enemy and 30% less for all remaining enemies. Enables Sarcotripsy. Ends the combo.

- Sarcotripsy: OGCD action. Deals damage with a potency of 240 to one enemy and 30% less for all remaining enemies.

Combo exists across 3 GCD actions: Addersting Generation, Cardiorrhexis, and Paroxysm. Total damage is 1350 which equates to 450 potency per action, a 450 potency gain once per minute. Deals 553 potency to all other enemies in AoE situations, which would otherwise be a total of 450 potency from Toxikon spam across 3 actions, and thus still a gain in AoE.

New Addersting Generator:

Krasis has been heavily reworked into a new 120 second cooldown learned at level 60. It is now a GCD action that grants 1 Addersting, resets the cooldown of Dyskrasia, and grants 2 stacks of Holos Ready for 120 seconds (initially only 1 stack is gained, but receives an additional stack via a trait at level 86). This action now helps streamline Addersting usage during buff windows.

Krasis changes to Holos while under the effects of Holos Ready, and players have the entire 2 minute window between Krasis uses to utilize each stack. Holos can also be affected by Eukrasia, and each version of Holos looks like this:

- Holos: GCD spell, instant cast, costs 700 MP. Grants a regen to self and all nearby party members with a potency of 130 for 15 seconds, increases HP restored from healing actions by 10% for 10 seconds, and grants 1 stack of Soteria to self and nearby party members for 15 seconds. Grants 1 Addersting and consumes 1 stack of Holos Ready.

- Eukrasian Holos: GCD spell, instant cast, costs 700 MP. Restores HP to self and nearby party members with a potency of 200 and creates a barrier for 100% of the HP restored for 20 seconds, reduces damage taken by self and nearby party members by 10% for 20 seconds, and grants 1 stack of Soteria to self and nearby party members for 15 seconds. Grants 1 Addersting and consumes 1 stack of Holos Ready.

This essentially combines Physis II and the current Holos into the same button but on the GCD with Addersting generation. This helps players store Addersting to be used during Dyskrasia's reset, and the additional Soteria stack both versions provide creates better synergy with SGE’s Kardia gameplay as well as offering more ways to make decisions with Eukrasia.

Conclusion:

I believe this is a system that answers questions that many of us have been asking for in healers as well as enhances some of the aspects of SGE that could have been better implemented. Many of these changes assume that the other healers would at least be given appropriate buffs to retain consistency, such as AoE damage and catch-up mechanics to basic GCD healing.

This system retains SGE’s access to resource-based mobility by having Toxikon consume 700 MP and gives you more opportunities to make resource-based decisions with it than we currently have. It revamps the Addersting gauge to be a more worthwhile reward and the main focal point of gameplay while also using cooldowns and filtering actions to prevent spam abuse and buff window dumping. The removed actions are debatable but was done to prune excessive healing options to make room for Eukrasian Diagnosis and Eukrasian Prognosis to be used more frequently.

In total, this revamp reduces our total buttons by 1 even with the additions of the new SGE continuation buttons, and I feel the kit has greater harmony and interactivity within itself than what we have now. Because many of these new systems give you time to utilize their effects, I also don’t believe it makes the job much more challenging either. There’s a more important rhythm to 2 minute bursts, but otherwise the job’s “rotation” demand is fairly relaxed.

There are good ideas here but I find some that do not work to me

-Dps neutral/positive GCD heals every 30s, I feel this would be too strong, especially when we introduce Zoe into the equation, it also harms one of the lasts remnants of depth healers have, avoiding gcds. Personally I find that a Dps cd that gives addersting every 30s would be better

-Dyskrasia, sounds like unnecesary button bloat to me, if the 20s cd is to avoid the spam of actions under raid buffs a simple 20s recast time on the spenders with a "Share recast time with X" or even making any spender give a debuff that prevents spenders to be used for 20s would do the trick

-Toxicon being the same potency as dosis I don't think is healthy for the depth of the job, a slightly lower potency than dosis I think would be better

-Toxicon 2 its potency is just enough to break even with dosis spam in single target, which when we add the oportunity cost of the other addersting spender existing means that it would only be used for 4+ enemies AoE and not for movement as its dps cost is higher than normal toxicon (asuming you want this to be used as movement tool as well)

-The addersting spender combo is a good idea but I find weird that paroxysm and sarcotripsy have splash damage but the combo starters don't

-I like the take on krasis and holos however it sounds like it'd create an assize situation with the heals being used just for the addersting (also kinda feels like a shadow nerf as physis has a 60s cd and holos 120 but here one could argue both have 120s). I'd like them more if instead krasis gave more addersting upfront and holos worked like pneuma being damage neutral

I like the identity of addersting builders and spenders (and the combos) with addersgall being the only oGCD and the rest of the kit (except diag and prog) being either positive or neutral, that is a direction sage could take instead of being Sch2.0

Well, this is a lot better than what I suggested. I still need to read this thoroughly, but this is a pretty good suggestion.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

There are good ideas here but I find some that do not work to me

-Dps neutral/positive GCD heals every 30s, I feel this would be too strong, especially when we introduce Zoe into the equation, it also harms one of the lasts remnants of depth healers have, avoiding gcds. Personally I find that a Dps cd that gives addersting every 30s would be better

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I disagree that avoiding GCD healing is healer "depth," but rather a glaring flaw with the way healing has developed. I don't think GCD healing should always be free, but like with WHM, we should have ways to be rewarded for particular useage. The TBN nature of SGE currently is good in theory, but problematic on something without a cooldown because it means if Addersting becomes neutral or a gain, you stop using Dosis III in favor of using Eukrasian Diagnosis as much as is possible, and auto attacks break it on the tank very quickly if it's not a crit. If our goal is to not use them, then why should they exist in the first place? Every action should have a reason to exist--one that contributes to gameplay rather than take away from it.

Also, we regularly discuss wanting more to do other than Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis spam, and to not always be DPSing for 99% of our GCD usage, which is exactly what this would promote.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

-Dyskrasia, sounds like unnecesary button bloat to me, if the 20s cd is to avoid the spam of actions under raid buffs a simple 20s recast time on the spenders with a "Share recast time with X" or even making any spender give a debuff that prevents spenders to be used for 20s would do the trick

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That makes sense in theory, but it means that Toxikon II either is a separate button or it replaces Toxikon automatically. Then the goal of pruning Dyskrasia has failed. If it's automatic, it creates a weird situation where your normal AoE button converts into something with a cooldown by force and removes your ability to use Toxikon as a mobility tool while active if you want to preserve Addersting. I think it's a bit simpler to have Toxikon II be its own button and remove the Krasis Dyskrasia reset aspect, but I kind of liked that interaction.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

-Toxicon being the same potency as dosis I don't think is healthy for the depth of the job, a slightly lower potency than dosis I think would be better

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In ARR and HW, Ruin II's potency was DPS neutral but had a higher MP cost which was a perfectly fine and well-liked mechanic as it gave you movement and additional weaving for an MP tax. Having it be weaker I think makes it just feel bad when you're forced to use it rather than feeling good about your ability to keep up your DPS and keep your GCD rolling during movement-intensive mechanics. SCH at least has Energy Drain to make up for the lower potency, but it's not a foolproof system. It also compliments the goal of raising the skill floor because a more frazzled, newer healer doesn't have to lose DPS if they rely on it more to maneuver a chaotic fight. They may spent too much MP, but then they have Eudripsia to rely on.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

-Toxicon 2 its potency is just enough to break even with dosis spam in single target, which when we add the oportunity cost of the other addersting spender existing means that it would only be used for 4+ enemies AoE and not for movement as its dps cost is higher than normal toxicon (asuming you want this to be used as movement tool as well)

-The addersting spender combo is a good idea but I find weird that paroxysm and sarcotripsy have splash damage but the combo starters don't

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Since the combo spender has a 60 second cooldown, but you could theoretically generate 1 Addersting per 30 seconds against a single boss, that means you have Addersting to spare to get off barriers and refund your lost DPS, but you also aren't obligated to do this other than readying yourself for your burst window. It's more about giving you the option to use Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis without making it feel necessary for DPS optimization. You could, in theory, be alternating every 30 seconds. Toxikon > Combo > Toxikon > Combo... etc and double up during burst windows with Krasis' effect.

As for the splash, there's nothing particularly wrong with backloading AoE damage off a combo rather than spreading it around the whole combo. A part of it was also just what I envisioned as the animations with Cardiorrhexis and Cartiotomy being precision lasers and Paroxysm and Sarcotripsy being rapidfire spreadshots.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

-I like the take on krasis and holos however it sounds like it'd create an assize situation with the heals being used just for the addersting (also kinda feels like a shadow nerf as physis has a 60s cd and holos 120 but here one could argue both have 120s). I'd like them more if instead krasis gave more addersting upfront and holos worked like pneuma being damage neutral

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Krasis is used on cooldown but offers no healing on its own. It's simply enabling you to use up to 2 Holos casts over a 2 minute window. During that time, both uses are GCD heals with your standard 2.5 second cooldown, so there's no pressure to use them specifically at any moment. They award Addersting and thus are neutral or gains for DPS, but you can always use Eukrasian Diagnosis or Prognosis instead so they're entirely optional for DPS optimization while also giving you a bit of room to generate extra Addersting which you can use the excess of since Dyskrasia's cooldown is 20 seconds rather than the 30 second duration of Eukrasian Dosis III. It's really just about freedom and flexibility.

I respect the effort but I'm not sure why so many things need to change on an already good kit just for addersting when they could just make it where any eukrasian shield (so not Haima/panhaima) could just proc it meaning you get rewarded for raidwide prevention and using a single GCD.

Changing Sorteria when it's like one of the best burst heal tools in the kit for staying dpsing while filling the tank back up after a buster for example feels like the kit was more built this way to change the SGE kit to be how you personally see it versus a resolution for Addersting specifically.

Not that it's a "bad thing" and it sounds super interesting how you came up with all this.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

that is a direction sage could take instead of being Sch2.0

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Honestly while the skills themselves are like SCH I feel personally the kit has enough going for it that makes it not feel like SCH.

The goal of slowly mitigating damage over time instead of completely shielding it and/or regenning it is one of the reasons I love the class because it feels like managing which tool to use when and how they play with each other vs just critlospreading.

To each their own though! I just really love the SGE kit already aside from addersting and feel it should be easier to fix than the devs make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

I respect the effort but I'm not sure why so many things need to change on an already good kit just for addersting when they could just make it where any eukrasian shield (so not Haima/panhaima) could just proc it meaning you get rewarded for raidwide prevention and using a single GCD.

Changing Sorteria when it's like one of the best burst heal tools in the kit for staying dpsing while filling the tank back up after a buster for example feels like the kit was more built this way to change the SGE kit to be how you personally see it versus a resolution for Addersting specifically.

Not that it's a "bad thing" and it sounds super interesting how you came up with all this.


Honestly while the skills themselves are like SCH I feel personally the kit has enough going for it that makes it not feel like SCH.

The goal of slowly mitigating damage over time instead of completely shielding it and/or regenning it is one of the reasons I love the class because it feels like managing which tool to use when and how they play with each other vs just critlospreading.

To each their own though! I just really love the SGE kit already aside from addersting and feel it should be easier to fix than the devs make it out to be.

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If your barrier heals just proc Addersting, then either Addersting is a loss like it currently is, which means we never proc it because a good SGE doesn't use their barrier heals outside of the hardest content in the game, or it's neural or a gain, to where now you just spam Eurkasian Diagnosis on the tank because the shield pops almost immediately from auto attacks. Thus we've swapped button spam from Dosis III to Eukrasian Diagnosis. The Soteria thing isn't necessary for the Addersting aspects, but it would have the same burstiness on your Kardia target while also making it possible to heal everyone through DPS.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

If our goal is to not use them, then why should they exist in the first place? Every action should have a reason to exist--one that contributes to gameplay rather than take away from it.

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Well shields shouldn't "always" negate a ton of damage. I personally like the RNG of Crits despit not having recitation because zoe + krasis + Diag can create some bonkers shielding. Zoe lasts a good long while so you can prep for that way before you need to use it too, which I think was intentional to avoid too many weaves/skills in a short gcd window. That's ignoring how good Haima can be when used in conjunction with the kit.

I don't think the GCD/E.Diag/prog issue is a design problem so much as a "meta" problem. If your whole player base is telling you constantly "GCD is a dps loss" the tool hasn't ceased to "have a reason to exist" it just means you shouldn't spam it to play efficiently. It's the reason AST got gutted and it's the reason why Energy Drain keeps getting added back despite it being a laughable skill. If there's any chance for "Dps gains" that's all the playerbase cares about which naturally creates homogenization/problems in the kit that aren't present in non min/max play.

I still use GCDs and manage to get good/high dps (I'm new to savage healing this expac). "Our goal" isn't to not use them, that goal is the goal that is enforced upon the playerbase by the playerbase itself. Just like fishing for dps/balance cards before. E.Diag/Prog definitely has a reason to exist and can do a lot. Just because you lose a dosis cast doesn't mean the kit is broken or bad, it just means people will do everything in their power to avoid using it for a few extra casts, which imo is a problem they've created for themselves for the sake of a parse in a meta that I don't care for.

I still push for dps and optimization in my own play, but I don't look at GCDs like some travesty that shouldn't be touched unless all options are gone. If I see a tank buster I'll Diag it for easy sting/less upkeep on tank. If a raidwide is coming and I'm having to move for mechanics I'll aoe shield. I'd say SGE's kit is one that I very rarely "have to" use GCD to begin with, not that I'm actively avoiding it. The game is not designed in such a way where a player "has to" avoid GCDs at all costs, but that's a different tangent I'm going on, apologies.

I think talking about not dpsing on the one healer that you should be and get rewarded for dpsing on is kind of odd, but I do agree they could vary it up a bit. I feel like Phlegma already provides some extra burst alongside pnuema being dps neutral so it's not wasted just for dps and used for heals like it should be. I'd say the dps options present in SGE are the only well balanced ones currently even if they could still use some work.

Sorry for double post wanted to respond fully and sorry for the walls o text.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

If your barrier heals just proc Addersting, then either Addersting is a loss like it currently is, which means we never proc it because a good SGE doesn't use their barrier heals outside of the hardest content in the game

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But the issue with this kind of min/maxing is just saying "it's a loss" while being objectively true doesn't mean it's a useless skill or even a bad skill. Sometimes you have to use ranged attacks as melee but we shouldn't just remove the ranged skill because it's a dps loss, because there's other factors at play there (namely, not standing in aoes).

And SGE already has so many good AOE options with Holos/ixochole every 30s + Physis to buff those skills. I think there are solutions being made here for problems that don't exist as the previously mentioned skills are all OGCD which allows for easy weaving which is one of my favorite things about the class personally. Why create an AOE kardia when I can holos or physis or kerachole and be done with it in a single button press instead of wasting gcds?

I think the skills themselves are a cool concept for a new class, or maybe I'm just stockholm'd into liking current SGE, but I feel like this is an entirely different class, not really what the current identity of SGE is.

The thing about "meta" though is that we didn't just decide that GCD healing is a loss because we felt like it. It happens because of the constant push to get better at the game and at the jobs we play. There's nearly never a need to use E. Diagnosis/Prognosis because in virtually every circumstance you can encounter in this game, even in Savage, there's an OGCD tool you can use instead which is ultimately more effective. Sure, E. Diagnosis/Prognosis aren't doing nothing, but you are effectively choosing the worst option among several, and once you know that's the case, it's difficult to justify intentionally using the weaker option.

Game design does need to take into consideration how that plays out which is why, for example, players brought up a dislike for the Dragon Kick spam rotation for Monk because it trivializes gameplay while still parsing very high for no effort. "Work smarter, not harder" as the saying goes.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

GCD heals

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Its not that I don't like the idea of having a way of using those actions but 30s is too low of a cd, in a job like Sage I can't see it working with anything less than 90s, its strength is comparable to kerachole but at the same time is affected by Zoe and many other healing buffs, can be dps positive, and in the case of a crit in diagnosis becomes absurdly powerful, not only that but also de emphasize kardion as those heals don't trigger it.

The purpose of those heals are simply to be those "press only when strictly necessary" heals which adds depth in the form of decision making, having that to be avoided as much as possible encourages us to use the rest of the kit and know its limit instead of just use whatever.

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Dyskrasia

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You could avoid it by using eukrasia.
Normal Toxicon could have that 300 potency with 50% falloff while eukrasian toxicon could be something like "200 potency with 50% falloff, aditional effect: deal 400 potency with 50% falloff, additional effect cost: 1 addersting" that way dyskrasia could be either deleted or repurposed into other skill.

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Toxicon

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In ARR and HW mp management was something that every healer had to do and there were more mechanics involved like external sources to help in the case their generation got compromised (i.e too much healing to use Energy drain). That is no longer a thing and in practical terms with existence of Eudripsia you're just giving sage unlimited movement without any real penalty and thus lowering the depth of the job. Even in TEA Sch can use energy drain extensively while doing P1 and P2 which are arguably the harderst heal checks of the game this means that even there Eudripsia could be used extensively to gain multiple uses of toxicon without compromising the mp economy.

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Addersting Spenders

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My head went over the 60s part so scratch that but that raises many more questions for me. With the gcds we gain 2 addersting per minute, Krasis can be used every 2 minutes to give us up to 3 addersting (1 from krasis and 2 from holos), this means we get every 2 minutes up to 7 addersting but only 2 uses that outside of raid buffs are dps gains...

That doesn't work to me, it feels like an artificial way to change the dosis spam for other stuff that in reality provides no benefit in raids, yes, you could say that toxicon 2 could be used for raid buffs and in AoE it works but, with the burst windows being 20s max, the dyskrasia debuff limiting the number of addersting actions under them and the combo being not only stronger but also naturally aligning with the 60/120s buffs, why would I want to use toxicon 2 instead? At best 1 toxicon could be used if dyskrasia is precasted before the burst window (asuming it enters on cd as soon as you press it and not after using toxicon/combo) and even then it would leave us with a lot of potential toxicon actions with no real benefit.

That is something that is a good idea on paper but potencies undermine it imo. If I were to fix it: Bump toxicon 2 potency up 20-30 potency so its a slight gain over dosis spam, reduce the cd of the combo down to 30s so 4/7 addersting we get every 2 minutes can be used there and the dyskrasia debuff lower it to 17s, this in theory should allow always for 1 combo + 1 toxicon under raid buffs while making toxicon 2 useful in single target scenarios and the combo more common as on average we would have 1-2 addersting uses outside the 60/120s burst windows

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Krasis

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Yeah, as said previosuly the 60s cd on the combo changes my opinion so scratch that too, I still think it would be best to have a pneuma-like skill to just have the 3 ways of healing while dpsing (Shielding and regen with holos and burst heal with pneuma) feels more sage like imo in fact the animation could be repurposed as a circle AoE around self but with the limit on the combo the urge to use them woudnt be as high as assize.

Still just want something to convert and addersgall to addersting, not a huge fan of having to overheal for the mp with addersgall, thats about it really...

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

it's neural or a gain, to where now you just spam Eurkasian Diagnosis on the tank because the shield pops almost immediately from auto attacks.

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Which would Still be a massive improvement as we'd also press toxicon as a Second gcd, and probably a dosis or two until the shield Breaks.
So the button presses would go from 1 2-1 1 1 1...
To either Something like:
2-3 2-1 1 4 2-3 1 4 2-3 1 4 ...
Or at the very least
2-3 2-1 4 2-3 4 2-3 4 ...

Yeah, I dig it. I’ll take it over what we have.