Regarding the reaction to 6.1 SAM changes

https://i.imgur.com/mw2zKUF.png

I genuinely am thrilled & excited for SAM changes + less buttons/less cluttering = the more fun, more immersion, the better!

I truly don’t understand why is it bothering most people that bad,

It hardly is any nerfing really

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Originally Posted by Vencio

I genuinely am thrilled & excited for SAM changes + less buttons/less cluttering = the more fun, more immersion, the better!

I truly don’t understand why is it bothering most people that bad,

It hardly is any nerfing really

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It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

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"Other jobs had it worse so you've no right to complain." This is an awful argument, stop trying to invalidate valid criticism. These kinds of posts help no one. If you don't want to see the complaints, just leave the forum for the day, or ignore them. None of those other jobs you mentioned deserved to be neglected either.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

I genuinely am thrilled & excited for SAM changes + less buttons/less cluttering = the more fun, more immersion, the better!

I truly don’t understand why is it bothering most people that bad,

It hardly is any nerfing really

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It’s less fun for me when they took out one of the most fun buttons in the jobs. Just a fun button removed with nothing to replace it

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Originally Posted by Roxus

"Other jobs had it worse so you've no right to complain." This is an awful argument, stop trying to invalidate valid criticism. These kinds of posts help no one. If you don't want to see the complaints, just leave the forum for the day, or ignore them. None of those other jobs you mentioned deserved to be neglected either.

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I wasn't making an argument so much as an observation. Aside from the kaiten change I don't really see any valid criticism though in my opinion. My stance on SAM was that its damage pad needed adjustments because it was completely centralizing and overpowered and the job which gave 14 raid buff jobs(the bulk majority) by far the most DPS and it wasn't even close. It just simply wasn't balanced and this is the truth as shown by the numbers. The fact it's remained in this state so long and no one seems to think anything is wrong with it is mind boggling to me.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

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How incredibly condescending. I've been maining this class since Stormblood and you say all of our opinions and experience with the class are invalid? Get over yourself.

Also it seems you weren't here during the Hagakure debacle; there was similar backlash which prompted SE to re-add it back into the game. Then again based on your posts, ignorance on this matter seems to be your forte.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

I wasn't making an argument so much as an observation. Aside from the kaiten change I don't really see any valid criticism though in my opinion. My stance on SAM was that its damage pad needed adjustments because it was completely centralizing and overpowered and the job which gave 14 raid buff jobs(the bulk majority) by far the most DPS and it wasn't even close. It just simply wasn't balanced and this is the truth as shown by the numbers. The fact it's remained in this state so long and no one seems to think anything is wrong with it is mind boggling to me.

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I have a hard time believing you read any of the constructive posts on the matter. Would you care to explain why none of our feedback is valid, then? Have you considered that possibly, the job isn't the issue, but rather how buffs, substats, and burst windows interact are? I'll make it easy for you and post it again. Yoshi P has touched upon the fact they want to get rid of the crit variance issue and the burst meta, alongside substat balance. However, that was supposed to be a change for everyone. Instead, they changed one job and left everything else as is, creating an issue where player exclusion is now becoming a thing, again. They should have introduced these changes at the same time as everyone else's changes to bring parity.

I think that if Samurai players were really passionate about Kaiten, then by all means, bring it back.

What I don't respect, though, is the argument that SAM should have an even bigger dps lead over other melee jobs because it's so much more 'complex', that we constantly saw touted on the forums and reddit during 6.0. If you make that argument, you're pretty much begging the dev team to simplify your job and then nerf it back into equality. If you're content with the gameplay on your job, then it's best to lay low and let jobs that actually need the dev team focus get it.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

I have a hard time believing you read any of the constructive posts on the matter. Would you care to explain why none of our feedback is valid, then? Have you considered that possibly, the job isn't the issue, but rather how buffs, substats, and burst windows interact are? I'll make it easy for you and post it again. Yoshi P has touched upon the fact they want to get rid of the crit variance issue and the burst meta, alongside substat balance. However, that was supposed to be a change for everyone. Instead, they changed one job and left everything else as is, creating an issue where player exclusion is now becoming a thing, again. They should have introduced these changes at the same time as everyone else's changes to bring parity.

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He has no interest in reading any kind of constructive post on the matter. The very fact he made this thread to post a shitty meme is evidence of that. This thread is nothing more than a gloat from someone who isn't affected by the changes and wants to rub it in everyone's faces.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that if Samurai players were really passionate about Kaiten, then by all means, bring it back.

What I don't respect, though, is the argument that SAM should have an even bigger dps lead over other melee jobs because it's so much more 'complex', that we constantly saw touted on the forums and reddit during 6.0. If you make that argument, you're pretty much begging the dev team to simplify your job and then nerf it back into equality. If you're content with the gameplay on your job, then it's best to lay low and let jobs that actually need the dev team focus get it.

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The only thing worse than dismissing any form of criticism from SAM mains is repeatedly posting about how it's all their own fault in every thread you can find. It's disingenuous, unproductive and if nothing else, spiteful. We're all playing the same game here, so there's really no point in the community turning on each other over shit that clearly doesn't matter to you or the OP because neither of you main the class in question. When Square eventually comes for your mains, makes arbitary changes to your favourite jobs and you want to voice your distaste, you'll find yourself lacking in support pretty quickly.
I don't play SMN, MNK, MCH or DRK all that much but I know they've been suffering and a lot of valid points have been made but I'm not going to shit all over them because I have some axe to grind with the class or the people who generally play them. Now that they've come for the SAMs though, we deserve it. Makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

I have a hard time believing you read any of the constructive posts on the matter. Would you care to explain why none of our feedback is valid, then? Have you considered that possibly, the job isn't the issue, but rather how buffs, substats, and burst windows interact are? I'll make it easy for you and post it again. Yoshi P has touched upon the fact they want to get rid of the crit variance issue and the burst meta, alongside substat balance. However, that was supposed to be a change for everyone. Instead, they changed one job and left everything else as is, creating an issue where player exclusion is now becoming a thing, again. They should have introduced these changes at the same time as everyone else's changes to bring parity.

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I agree with what you're saying, the changes shouldn't stop with samurai but the entire 'burst meta' needs to be changed, as well as the fact almost every job in this game functions exactly the same way with the same copy paste buffs. It starts with the job that benefited the most from the current meta though which is undeniably samurai.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that if Samurai players were really passionate about Kaiten, then by all means, bring it back.

What I don't respect, though, is the argument that SAM should have an even bigger dps lead over other melee jobs because it's so much more 'complex', that we constantly saw touted on the forums and reddit during 6.0. If you make that argument, you're pretty much begging the dev team to simplify your job and then nerf it back into equality. If you're content with the gameplay on your job, then it's best to lay low and let jobs that actually need the dev team focus get it.

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https://i.imgur.com/tlYqSbR.png

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

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I have all jobs to 90. It doesn't mean that I play them all at a raid level, so that comment means nothing.

Also, who are you talking to? Nobody mentioned the complexity of the job here.

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Originally Posted by Awkward

I agree with what you're saying, the changes shouldn't stop with samurai but the entire 'burst meta' needs to be changed, as well as the fact almost every job in this game functions exactly the same way with the same copy paste buffs. It starts with the job that benefited the most from the current meta though which is undeniably samurai.

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I'm glad you agree. However, to say it should start with Samurai without including any other change, as said before, invites discrimination. And I have dealt with that discrimination before in Stormblood. Please understand why this isn't necessarily a good change alone, ignoring how I feel about the gameplay disruption of removing Kaiten.

Personally, I find all the damage and synergy complaints on Sam quite null (the synergy because it's 2 minute buffs). Changing the dps a job does can be done fairly easily in .x1, .x5, .x8 patches and to an extent and to an extent, they have some dps comparison they want out the jobs so if they want sam to get their dps reduced relative to the rest, they will do so. Complaining about it can be valid if this results in the pf hypocrisy where it gets very hard to get in a party like we saw with summoner at 6.0 (granted, for a different stupid reason). Samurai isn't having it that bad and from my understanding people know that making such an argument right now would be an exaggeration.

So that leaves kaiten. And I think that part of the things I saw and read have been on a base close to what Lyth wrote:
Samurai does some of the highest dps and lacks party buffing
Therefore the job is relatively more complex and deserves to be so,
Therefore the removal of kaiten implies removal of the complexity that the job SHOULD have.

My personal gripe is not with Sam exactly but more with bard having been praised for the whole procs on songs simplification (among other things compared to media tour version) and people praising that 6.0 EW design (I never cared about dps or that bard was top of ranged rdps in EW). So without attributing this to everyone here annoyed with the removal of kaiten, it kind of feels like double standards to me.

Homogenization of classes to make things simpler to learn is fine. Having different levels of skill enhance different levels of play ruin the people's enjoyment of the class in different environments is honestly a result of the "Fear of Missing Out" syndrome where you do not get the best results because you missed a weaponskill or ability within a certain window or the fight cuts off at a certain period of time.

I believe that it is fine to have classes that are rewarded for more damage for their level of play in terms of complexity because all achievements and feats are performed based on your merit, your performance and your consistency. Dragging a class down because its damage output as a result of its performance and complexities created an environment where you are literally just all the is very bland. People should look at a class and understand that its performance is based on the class and that while it should not outstrip everyone else by a "wide" margin, it should still pull ahead. There are many nuances and degrees to the situation in which performance affects classes.

Back in Shadowbringers, SAM and BLM were obviously some of the best classes for damage that you could bring to a fight that did not force downtime on anyone as a result of their rotations offering consistent damage over long periods of times but SMN had a distinct advantage of being able to recoup or ready their burst for fights that had downtime allowing them to match or even exceed BLM and SAM in something like TEA. There was also the added bonus of brining an extra Raise which could save the run assuming your goal was to farm totems or clear whereas SAM and BLM could guarantee you the faster clear or meet a DPS check assuming adequate skill and situation. You cannot just look at a -3 DPS loss and assume right off the bat this will not change how SAM plays. You cannot trivialize identity by camouflaging it with no net damage loss. That is not the only factor you should be observing because the main crux of the issue that most people bring up is the loss of identity and complexity which has resulted in a loss of satisfaction in the class.

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

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How about I just remove your Summon Bahamut because adding skills will create an interaction that is not conducive to your rotation? How about I just remove something that enhances your rotation because the interaction is just an overall negative to you because I think pressing an extra button a few too many times is too much for you to handle because I justify the lack of ability with "button bloat"?

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

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That's... not how that works. Kaiten isn't gatekeeping anything from being added to the job. If a situation like that occurred, that would be a problem with the new skill, not Kaiten.

A good way to put the Kaiten change (regarding mechanics, not numbers or performance) is that it brings Samurai closer to Scholar levels of pointless resource bloat.
Aetherflow and Faerie Gauge (especially faerie gauge) have no meaningful interaction with eachother (you gain faerie gauge from using aetherflow abilities wooooo).
Scholar is in sore need of a complete retooling regarding it's resources, either turning the faerie gauge into something meaningful to spend, like an addersting gauge (which is more exciting at least), or interact with it's kit.

Kaiten was the only thing that bridged the gap between the stickers and the kenki gauge. Now you can throw the kenki gauge off screen because you don't need it any time except for dumping on a button that glows.
If shinten glows you press it, if shoha glows you press it. (pooling has also been diminished since the trick attack change got rid of our 1m window where we DIDN'T have Ikishoten)
They said they wanted to make way for changes in the future with kaiten's removal, but should have honestly held off until they had something to REPLACE kaiten. It's quite literally a faerie gauge now.

Oh and if anyone is excited because it frees up button bloat there are nearly half a dozen better solutions with no downside whatsoever in every Samurai forum, please don't settle for less.
They could have gotten rid of TWO buttons instead of one this patch but didn't.
Imagine Ikishoten gives you another buff like Ogi Namikiri Ready, called lets say, "Hissatu: Ready" and what it does is change Hissatu: Shinten / Kyuten into Hissatu: Senei / Guren respectively, and when you press either ability the buff gets consumed.
You still have Senei and Guren in the game, they're just bound to Shinten and Kyuten respectively, functioning 100% the same, and ALSO IT REDUCES POTENTIAL DRIFT since the CD is tied to Ikishoten, lowering the skill floor for all sorts of players.

And thats just one idea that has no drawbacks whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

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Justifying the removal of a core gameplay element for Samurai with a hypothetical skill we may never get is asinine.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

Justifying the removal of a core gameplay element for Samurai with a hypothetical skill we may never get is asinine.

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I don't have a dog in that race, they could had kept Kaiten in the game until that moment comes.
But Shinten vs Kaiten disparity was always going to limit future actions no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I don't have a dog in that race, they could had kept Kaiten in the game until that moment comes.
But Shinten vs Kaiten disparity was always going to limit future actions no matter what.

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That level of logic is very limiting in of itself.

What is even the use of "disparity" here? What difference is there between these two abilities as far as spending Kenki for potency goes? Why are you assuming things in a vacuum? Why are you trying to say that this limits future actions when the whole premise is to build off the kit of the class? What exactly is the point of spending Kenki if you only have one option for it? What is the point of Kenki then?

Shrek crying Donkey.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I don't have a dog in that race, they could had kept Kaiten in the game until that moment comes.
But Shinten vs Kaiten disparity was always going to limit future actions no matter what.

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I fail to understand what you are trying to say. Shinten and Kaiten are used in balance of each other. There wasn't a case where you never use one without the other (Besides Hagakure meta, where Kaiten was actually the skill that was ignored). Your argument is flawed.

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Originally Posted by CuragaCura

That level of logic is very limiting in of itself.

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It is only the truth. On-demand +50% potency is going to limit any kind of weaponskill development.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

It is only the truth. On-demand +50% potency is going to limit any kind of weaponskill development.

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What kind of single-celled organism did you pull that idea from?

https://i.gyazo.com/a060b82300034c1a...aff38aed82.png

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Originally Posted by CuragaCura

What kind of single-celled organism did you pull that idea from?

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Less attitude okay. Anyway, it is the same reason why Reassemble is probably holding Machinist back on some level, where everything new has to be tuned around either being another Drill to work with it, or is just more Queen abilities that cannot be affected by Reassemble. A general ability keeping Machinist "kit" to speak from changing.

Also if you wanna respond to me, just quote me like a normal person please.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Less attitude okay. Anyway, it is the same reason why Reassemble is probably holding Machinist back on some level, where everything new has to be tuned around either being another Drill to work with it, or is just more Queen abilities that cannot be affected by Reassemble. A general ability keeping Machinist "kit" to speak from changing.

Also if you wanna respond to me, just quote me like a normal person please.

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So you went from Kaiten holding Samurai back to Reassemble MAYBE holding Machinist back. No matter how you look at it, you are not resolving the issue of identity loss by saying that it holds back the class because of some inane reason where having an ability block development of the class meant that new abilities cannot be developed for the class. How did Summon Bahamut get created if Summon Carbuncle was holding SMN back? Why can't Carbuncle just be perma-summoned out? Why is Ikishoten used to allow the use of Ogi Namikiri? Why isn't Summon Phoenix something that is created to replace Dreadwyrm Trance? It's an upgrade/replacement to an existing skill right? But shouldn't it block development of the class because the skill somehow... builds... off... the original kit? That's why I wonder if I ended up quoting something out of a single-cell organism. The idea that an ability can block the development of a class is actually so one-dimensional to me that I often times wonder if the experimental hypothesis for the statement was conceived as a harebrained scheme. But please, answer my original question of how then.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I don't have a dog in that race, they could had kept Kaiten in the game until that moment comes.
But Shinten vs Kaiten disparity was always going to limit future actions no matter what.

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The whole point behind PPK conversions was how Shinten vs. Kaiten has always been managed. Kaiten provided the biggest boost to GCD damage you could get but it wasn't as much as what you'd get from your big 2 minute oGCD's. So you developed a priority system. If Guren/Senei are coming up, then you use them. If they aren't available, you Kaiten every Iaijutsu. If that isn't needed then you are free to use Shinten, unless you need to use Gyoten or Yaten in the near future at which point you need to make sure you reserve 10 Kenki for that.

Whether or not Shinten is better than Kaiten runs entirely on the relative PPK values between the two abilities. As of ShB and 6.0, Shinten was the Kenki dump while Kaiten had priority if Iaijutsu was coming up. You needed to use Shinten regularly though, to avoid Kenki waste, but you couldn't just spam it because you were always thinking ahead to the next Iaijutsu and needed to ensure you would have enough gas in the tank to buff it. Proper balancing of the Kaiten vs. Shinten potencies granted relevance to both abilities without neutering one or the other like we saw in SB, where Shinten was the preferred spender of Kenki (except for when Higanbana needed to be buffed, you were under raid buffs or Hagakure was on CD and you had 3 Sen).

One of the stated reasons for the removal of Kaiten was the "smooth" the SAM damage curve, lowering the peaks and bringing up the valleys. They could have accomplished this without removing anything simply by reducing the base potencies of Midare and Ogi while boosting the oGCD potencies of Senei and Shinten and maybe even our basic GCD attacks. They could keep Midare and Ogi decently high in terms of damage but not so high that they have such an outsized effect on overall SAM dps. They could compensate for any reduction in big hit damage by filling it in elsewhere, either through direct potency increases, boosting Kenki returned when using Hagakure, altering Kenki gains from our GCD's or something along those lines. Perhaps a "Kenki refund" of some sort, where proper usage of Kaiten while Meikyo is active makes the next Shinten free and deal 25% more damage. That creates kit synergy and incentive to put things in the right order without leaning on mega potency moves for too much total dps. And if that's too complex then you can simply trim the potencies on our big hits and boost the potency of the oGCD's and basic GCD combos like I mentioned above.

In short, there are far more elegant ways that this could have been addressed that wouldn't gut the job, but apparently throwing out some half-baked change for a problem that doesn't yet exist - much less needs solving - was the route the dev team decided to take.

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Originally Posted by CuragaCura

But please, answer my original question of how then.

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What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

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It's not just a "buff." It's resource management too. It's rewarding forethought and planning. As it stands now, you could remove Kenki, keep the CD skills of Senei/Guren/Gyoten/Yaten with their same CD's, give Shinten/Kyuten four shared charges on a 12s CD and....nothing would change. No one would notice that Kenki is gone. The 52-62 experience would be a little less boring since you'd be able to use Shinten more frequently than you would when it was locked to Kenki, but the play at 62+ would be unchanged from how it is now. Kaiten gave value to a lot of things, but most important of those things was Kenki. The gauge itself is now vestigal, effectively becoming the Shinten gauge.

Look up core-a-gaming's video on "why we should buff instead of nerf"

I dislike button removal without getting a replacement.

Especially if it's a cool button like that...

Oh well!

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Originally Posted by Ayche

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

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You're being a single-dimensional facet of a troll or something here. I never said anything about removing Bahamut. Quote my entire post instead of just the last part of it and I might have actually assumed that you actually bothered to read and offer constructive criticism instead of just offering your meaningless opinion.

I never stated that Kaiten was the bolt that locks the Samurai identity. Don't infer extra details out of my statements. Kaiten is/was part of the identity skill that defines Samurai while acting as one of the greater sources of Kenki spending for potency. Using an example for you obviously won't work so I'd rather just tell you straight out that you are literally offering nothing to the original discussion.

So I'll countermand you with this. Bahamut just pads your DPS. You don't need Bahamut to use Wyrmwave automatically. He's just an extra buff or DOT effect or button that you can press for free damage. You should do all your damage with just your summoned pets or just Ruin III all day.

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Originally Posted by Quor

It's not just a "buff." It's resource management too. It's rewarding forethought and planning. As it stands now, you could remove Kenki, keep the CD skills of Senei/Guren/Gyoten/Yaten with their same CD's, give Shinten/Kyuten four shared charges on a 12s CD and....nothing would change. No one would notice that Kenki is gone. The 52-62 experience would be a little less boring since you'd be able to use Shinten more frequently than you would when it was locked to Kenki, but the play at 62+ would be unchanged from how it is now. Kaiten gave value to a lot of things, but most important of those things was Kenki. The gauge itself is now vestigal, effectively becoming the Shinten gauge.

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Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you the kenki for Kaiten since it is only 20 points. It is actually sometimes even hard to screw up,

It is correct that if they decided to buckle down and stick to current, even ShB SAM elements forever, it is possible to rearrange them in multiple ways to smooth out the damage. Like I can say that it could work, you could do that. Whether the values look right or feel right would be hard to judge, because would crit fishing Senei feel even worse due to its 2 minute timer or would feel weaker Kaiten+Midare itself feel bad? Like would it be worth it to keep all those actions in a watered down form? I don't know, you could bake in lot of conditional effects everywhere to keep it hard to solve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you never for Kaiten since it is only 20 points. It is actually sometimes even hard to screw up,

It is correct that if they decided to buckle down and stick to current, even ShB SAM elements forever, it is possible to rearrange them in multiple ways to smooth out the damage. Like I can say that it could work, you could do that. Whether the values look right or feel right would be hard to judge, because would crit fishing Senei feel even worse due to its 2 minute timer or would feel weaker Kaiten+Midare itself feel bad? Like would it be worth it to keep all those actions in a watered down form? I don't know, you could bake in lot of conditional effects everywhere to keep it hard to solve.

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https://i.imgur.com/IH4fZyx.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you never for Kaiten since it is only 20 points.

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https://i.imgur.com/hjlUBRK.gif

It was a spelling mistake, hold your horses. This is not twitter.

SAM main since early-acc Stormblood most of savage tier clear except O12S and I don't do Ultimate.

Do we have to really express why this change is stupid? Do we have again to make a tantrum like we did for Hagakure because it was already this level of stupid?

Do you have at SE just once play a SAM like for thousand(s) of hour? I don't think so otherwise you would know that SAM is just a trashbin without kaiten when you're in leveling and roulette .

Who really think the SAM is difficult? It was difficult at his release and that's all.

-They took Hagakure from us cause people can't do simple math like not spending all of the kenki so you still have kaiten for your Iai resulting in dumbing all the way down the ressource management of SAM.
-They BUFF like never the duration of our Jinpu/Shifu buff cause people can't even push the combo's button in the right order at the right time (with a job where it is your job to collect stickers with combo).
-They added up kenki to all of our combo because people still can't do simple math.
-They took away the real meaning of shoha that was to use meditate to win even more potency/ressource during downtime (Fishing proc was not a cool thing btw)
-Finally they took us Seigan who was a unique tool making 3rd eye something usefull and not a new shinten generator.

SAM mains (please refrain from calling you a main when you can't tell if kaiten was or was not an oGCD you're all embarassing) already made their voices loud enough with the removal of Hagakure who was a core tool to how the Samurai FEEL but eh, everybody's got trashed along the road so we sucked it up.

And now, you did exactly the same as ShB and throwing away an other of our core feeling tool?

SE, If you feel that Samurai is too strong in crit party comp why not telling us? You know why? Cause you know that you ignored community feedback about rampant crit meta since HW. Suck it up and we'll suck it up.

By luck I'm not doing Ultimate Mode so I dont have to force myself to play a job that requires less brainmatter and have less decision making/ressource management than most of moba's character that have only 4 spells. This is laughable.

Tantrum is ending. I'll go back to the game and have fun playing an other job hoping something happens in a good way for SAM.

Sad to see a job where I would put thousands of hour in due to it's relative complexity dropping into the abyss of f2p A-RPG gameplay feeling.

Revert these changes and work on something better like modifying how critical works in the game formula it will be for the better of everyone.