Why no dungeon trash exp?

Why did they take away exp from dungeon trash? Now trash feels like a waste of time.


Did they take a page from World of Warcraft and #FunDetected?

No.

It's because people were abusing the initial trash pulls in some dungeons to farm EXP faster then committing to a full dungeon run would.

This was done to make it more difficult for bots to farm dungeons.

Aside of bots, I suppose it's better for ensuring that players get the full amount of EXP from the earlier dungeons where the standard approach is to skip all the side passages and enemies.

some dungeons got abused in terms of exp
it was actually better to kill all the trash and leave at the first boss in Doma castle and rinse repeat.

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Originally Posted by Snowdove

Why did they take away exp from dungeon trash? Now trash feels like a waste of time.


Did they take a page from World of Warcraft and #FunDetected?

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I believe they removed all of the trash mob XP and gave it to the bosses (or the final boss) to encourage actually finishing the whole instance. It actually let's you clear more quickly if you want the experience. You don't have to hunt down absolutely everything now.

I don't like it, to be honest. Now if someone pulls trash that didn't need to be pulled, instead of thinking "oh well more exp" its, this is a huge waste of time. I think it's made dungeons feel more tedious.

I believe they said it was because of trying to ease up server stress for the endwalker launch. Giving EXP after every individual kill across who knows how many instances at once was probably an easy target to get rid of to ease stress on the duty finder server. I believe they did the same thing for spiritbonding calculations too?
Plus none of that EXP is gone, finishing the instance is the same amount, if not more, than it was before.

It's a nice thing when you are called in as replacement on the final boss.

One time I got into Amdapor Keep in a roulette and the other 3 were just bots that teleported away, pulled all the enemies and killed them. They didn't respond to my pleas and after a few minutes, they all left.

Sastasha has so many places you can go that would probably increase the duration of the run by 40 minutes. I only experienced it two or three times but I'm happy there is less benefit in doing it.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

No.

It's because people were abusing the initial trash pulls in some dungeons to farm EXP faster then committing to a full dungeon run would.

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Sounds like a political answer. I believe they've done it to remove strain on their servers held together with tape & glue.

This was a terrible change

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

I don't like it, to be honest. Now if someone pulls trash that didn't need to be pulled, instead of thinking "oh well more exp" its, this is a huge waste of time. I think it's made dungeons feel more tedious.

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This multiple times over

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Originally Posted by DeltaCyan

I believe they said it was because of trying to ease up server stress for the endwalker launch. Giving EXP after every individual kill across who knows how many instances at once was probably an easy target to get rid of to ease stress on the duty finder server. I believe they did the same thing for spiritbonding calculations too?

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This is the reason.

I'm not sure why people are stating bots or farming trash mobs for exp as if it were fact. If you don't know the answer, be honest.

I think it was a combination of factors because I distinctly remember them mentioning the trash farming as something they wanted to cut down on.

It wouldn't have really done anything to affect the RMT bots because they're generally farming dungeons for the gil drops, not EXP.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

This multiple times over

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I guess also -
Instead of feeling like every step of the dungeon is progress towards something (getting exp and levelling) now you just spend the entire thing waiting for the end. I feel like its sucked the life out of dungeon running, I've never hated it as much as I do after this change.

I know its the same amount of exp. It just feels bad.

The bots, man. It's because of the bots.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

I don't like it, to be honest. Now if someone pulls trash that didn't need to be pulled, instead of thinking "oh well more exp" its, this is a huge waste of time. I think it's made dungeons feel more tedious.

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Ah, yes, because before that change, dungeons were a deeply engaging activity. /s

To me, the problem with the mobs is not the experience rewards they do or do not drop, but the fact that they are incredibly boring to fight. Attaching a reason to fight more of them does little to alleviate the feeling of tedium they induce. It helps suffer through it, but doesn't change the fact that it is just that. With the way most current dungeons are designed, it's not like there are mobs that can be skipped, anyway, so it's only a change that really affects the ARR and HW era dungeons.

In the end it all boils down to the issue that dungeons are not very engaging, so the sole reason to run them after the "new and shiny" factor wears off is the rewards. And the moment it is all about the rewards, players will of course optimise it to the nth degree. And I would argue dungeons suffer even there, as all that really can be done with them is the tomestone/exp grind. The only exceptions are at the very start of an expansion, where gear is a relevant iLevel stepping stone for a very short moment, and the improved iLevel for Ultimates one can get once dungeon gear reaches the ilevel synch of older Ultimate fights. In all other cases, the gear rewards are already irrelevant the moment a dungeon releases for an active player that does their weekly normal and alliance raids.

Of course, as most dungeons are all part of MSQ these days, there is zero chance of that ever changing, since they serve as a low-committment gear catchup mechanic and have to be beatable by everyone to not lock anyone out of the story, so there is no way for Square to improve any of this without alienating some players.

I am curious what the Criterion Dungeons will end up being and if they maybe can alleviate at least some of these issues. I am not getting my hopes up, though.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

I guess also -
Instead of feeling like every step of the dungeon is progress towards something (getting exp and levelling) now you just spend the entire thing waiting for the end. I feel like its sucked the life out of dungeon running, I've never hated it as much as I do after this change.

I know its the same amount of exp. It just feels bad.

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It's made no difference to my dungeon running. I do them for the roulette bonus or the loot, so the experience from specific enemies doesn't matter to me. I would definitely not say that it's "sucked the life out of dungeon running".

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

I don't like it, to be honest. Now if someone pulls trash that didn't need to be pulled, instead of thinking "oh well more exp" its, this is a huge waste of time. I think it's made dungeons feel more tedious.

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I'm confused lol, is it not more tedious to go pull every mob possible for the exp in every dungeon? Remember that ARR/Heavenward still exist in roulette, would rather not be stuck in Brayflox or Aurum because of a single puller tank wants all the mob exp :P

Trash mobs are just boring lol. I think it would feel more tedious at certain dungeons & not less.

edit: removed the bots part since apparently that wasn't the reason (I can't read!)

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Originally Posted by Jagick

You don't have to hunt down absolutely everything now.

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some habits die hard cause theres still lots of tanks that try to go for that full clear

I never said dungeons are engaging or amazing content. But when the mobs had exp it at least made the race to the bosses feel like you're at least achieving something extra on the side which, for me, made trash palatable. Now everything just feels like its in the way.

Not trying to argue any points here. Its just how I feel about the change.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

I don't like it, to be honest. Now if someone pulls trash that didn't need to be pulled, instead of thinking "oh well more exp" its, this is a huge waste of time. I think it's made dungeons feel more tedious.

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Yeah well no matter what they do someone is gonna complain about it.

It sucks bad that they always just cut content for people who dont like it rather than making it better, yaknow? Tons of people in this thread are lamenting the dungeons feeling worse cuz of the change, but a ton are also saying "well I never liked dunngeons so it doesnt matter that they're pointless!" Lots of people don't bother imagining how something could be better so they're fine with the removal or flattening of the game. Yeah it's the same amount of EXP but it feels bad to fight enemies now for no reward at all.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

I never said dungeons are engaging or amazing content. But when the mobs had exp it at least made the race to the bosses feel like you're at least achieving something extra on the side which, for me, made trash palatable. Now everything just feels like its in the way.

Not trying to argue any points here. Its just how I feel about the change.

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Dungeons were my favorite content to do actually. I like dungeon crawling and fighting lots of enemies....but the devs don't seem to care about improving anything

idc what they want to say, but no drops and no exp in trash mobs makes dungeons feel bad.

If anything, they should add a token or something that has a chance of dropping from trash mobs that allow you to purchase dungeon drops since farming them, esp for orchestrations, minions and glam, can be painful. At least this way the mobs would feel at least a little beneficial. Stripping all rewards and even exp from something, even if they shift it somewhere else, is just one of those "what on earth are you thinking" moves.

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Originally Posted by MagicalChase

It sucks bad that they always just cut content for people who dont like it rather than making it better, yaknow? Tons of people in this thread are lamenting the dungeons feeling worse cuz of the change, but a ton are also saying "well I never liked dunngeons so it doesnt matter that they're pointless!" Lots of people don't bother imagining how something could be better so they're fine with the removal or flattening of the game. Yeah it's the same amount of EXP but it feels bad to fight enemies now for no reward at all.

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I like dungeons actually but the favorite part for me are the bosses. Dungeons are really good for atmosphere/music/ect and some I run solo (pre HW content anyways) to get some glams and such that I missed out on. Fightings mob after mobs has never been my thing, I didn't sign up to play Hyrule Warriors lol. It's ok on occassion but I would hate to do it every dang dungeon. Dungeons never felt pointless to me bcus I know I get the exp from the boss anyways.

The newer dungeons don't let you skip mobs anyway, they're so linear so you're not really missing out on fighting mobs so whatever. You still get loot/rewards from the chest so again never bothered me.

Why do you or anyone else care? They moved the mob exp into the bosses.

Pulling all of the trash was already a huge waste of time anyway. This just changed it so that people can now easily recognize that it's a waste of time without people in groups arguing about wanting to clear the dungeon or not.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I like dungeons actually but the favorite part for me are the bosses. Dungeons are really good for atmosphere/music/ect and some I run solo (pre HW content anyways) to get some glams and such that I missed out on. Fightings mob after mobs has never been my thing, I didn't sign up to play Hyrule Warriors lol. It's ok on occassion but I would hate to do it every dang dungeon. Dungeons never felt pointless to me bcus I know I get the exp from the boss anyways.

The newer dungeons don't let you skip mobs anyway, they're so linear so you're not really missing out on fighting mobs so whatever. You still get loot/rewards from the chest so again never bothered me.

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but they already make content for people who like boss fights, its trials! Why turn all content in the game into trials? You dont sign up to fight a bunch of enemies in trials, but you literally do in dungeons. Don't you see that making it all linear and the mobs do no exp makes the actual dungeon crawling pointless?? why even bother designing a dungeon at that point jsut have a corridor with a cutscene and a boss at the end.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Pulling all of the trash was already a huge waste of time anyway. This just changed it so that people can now easily recognize that it's a waste of time without people in groups arguing about wanting to clear the dungeon or not.

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Sounds more like a badly designed dungeon or possibly a bigger underlying issue. Why would a dev make something that both sides believe is waste of time?

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Originally Posted by MagicalChase

but they already make content for people who like boss fights, its trials! Why turn all content in the game into trials? You dont sign up to fight a bunch of enemies in trials, but you literally do in dungeons. Don't you see that making it all linear and the mobs do no exp makes the actual dungeon crawling pointless?? why even bother designing a dungeon at that point jsut have a corridor with a cutscene and a boss at the end.

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That's exactly what dungeons have been in the last couple of expansions, a corridor with 2 cutscenes and 3 bosses. They have distilled the dungeons down into its simplest form for better or for worse.

That same argument could be made with trash "They already make content for people who like to fight trash for xp, it's FATES or open world!"

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Originally Posted by MagicalChase

but they already make content for people who like boss fights, its trials! Why turn all content in the game into trials? You dont sign up to fight a bunch of enemies in trials, but you literally do in dungeons. Don't you see that making it all linear and the mobs do no exp makes the actual dungeon crawling pointless?? why even bother designing a dungeon at that point jsut have a corridor with a cutscene and a boss at the end.

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Idk in my mind trials and dungeons are separate? I still like running through dungeons and trials, A. raids too. I just never really saw the dungeons as a true "dungeon crawler" experience ig lol.

I think I'm wording it a bit too vaguely or confusingly - I think there's a line to too little mobs vs. too much - as in I don't really want to fight mob levels of Dynasty Warriors but I'm ok with going through a couple of mobs here and there to make it through. Again I don't really see it pointless as I'm still getting exp and stuff for it, I think that's just where our personal differences are lol + I never minded about games being linear.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

That's exactly what dungeons have been in the last couple of expansions, a corridor with 2 cutscenes and 3 bosses. They have distilled the dungeons down into its simplest form for better or for worse.

That same argument could be made with trash "They already make content for people who like to fight trash for xp, it's FATES or open world!"

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yeah the dungeons have been pretty bad for a while now. and yaknow you say that but the open world becomes less and less viable with every expansion. Plus fates are a massively differnt style of content to dungeons. Have you never played an mmo before shadowbringers? Not even other mmos but this one during a realm reborn or heavensward? Dungeon crawling is a thing much much more complicated than a fate or a corridor with a boss fight at the end.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

That same argument could be made with trash "They already make content for people who like to fight trash for xp, it's FATES or open world!"

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You mean Eureka :P Funny cause I actually like Eureka too lol. Most of the time anyways

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Idk in my mind trials and dungeons are separate? I still like running through dungeons and trials, A. raids too. I just never really saw the dungeons as a true "dungeon crawler" experience ig lol.

I think I'm wording it a bit too vaguely or confusingly - I think there's a line to too little mobs vs. too much - as in I don't really want to fight mob levels of Dynasty Warriors but I'm ok with going through a couple of mobs here and there to make it through. Again I don't really see it pointless as I'm still getting exp and stuff for it, I think that's just where our personal differences are lol + I never minded about games being linear.

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what do you think of brayflox longstop? id like more dungeons like that with rewards for playing differently or taking risks. brayflox is my favorite ARR dungeon, tho most ARR dungeons are my favorites

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Sounds more like a badly designed dungeon or possibly a bigger underlying issue. Why would a dev make something that both sides believe is waste of time?

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Good news! They fixed it!

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Good news! They fixed it!

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...05/811/054.png

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Originally Posted by MagicalChase

what do you think of brayflox longstop? id like more dungeons like that with rewards for playing differently or taking risks. brayflox is my favorite ARR dungeon, tho most ARR dungeons are my favorites

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I'm usually ok to indifferent with the ARR dungeons tbh, most times I don't like running it because well.. obv it's too easy now lol and I've seen it over a dozen times. Some dungeons feel pointlessly long, Brayflox is about the level of ok I'd be at. I always thought the UCoB was interesting too (little puzzle gimmicks, although I know those are shorter since they're split. but I'd like to see that sort of thing in a longer dungeon). I feel like there's a few others I could name, but I can't think the name of them right now lol. I think if they made a new dungeon like Brayflox it'd be fun. But I have no problems really with the linearity of newer dungeons too - so maybe they could try to hit a middle ground for both playstyles I'd think - something they've been really failing to do for a while, but still :P

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I'm usually ok to indifferent with the ARR dungeons tbh, most times I don't like running it because well.. obv it's too easy now lol and I've seen it over a dozen times. Some dungeons feel pointlessly long, Brayflox is about the level of ok I'd be at. I always thought the UCoB was interesting too (little puzzle gimmicks, although I know those are shorter since they're split. but I'd like to see that sort of thing in a longer dungeon). I feel like there's a few others I could name, but I can't think the name of them right now lol. I think if they made a new dungeon like Brayflox it'd be fun. But I have no problems really with the linearity of newer dungeons too - so maybe they could try to hit a middle ground for both playstyles I'd think - something they've been really failing to do for a while, but still :P

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bit of both would be nice