Ninja or Monk

Hey everyone.

I play this game for a while in shadowbringer, and stop for like a year.

I wanna focus on a job to learn and try for the 1st time savage.

I was main heal, i played tank a lot too and ninja.
Ninja was my fav dps and i play it kind of a lot too. Now that i have a new character (little problem on my account), i want to buy a book.

Although, i hesitate between Ninja which i loved before (i don't know now) or Monk (it seems super fun too now).

What's your advice? Do you think ninja still as fun and fast paced like in shadowbringer or will the Monk be more active to play now?

Thanks <3

I personally find NIN to be a lot of fun - I started playing in ShB and still love it.

That being said, MNK performance is much higher if that's what you care about. I also think that the MNK class rework was very well done (though that is a controversial opinion around here) and that the class plays quite well.

I don't think that there's a wrong choice, here! You'll be fine either way, so go with your gut and just switch to the other one if you're not feeling it once you start savage raiding.

Good luck!

Thanks for the tip.

I'm gonna look at some video but it both looks good :D

I know the monk is "better" in term of dps, but i don't care much about that. I just need to play a job that i love :D

I'm gonna think and try then, the only choice i have :D

Ninja and monk are night and day when it comes to complexity.

Monk after it's overhaul is relatively simple. It's not as punishing as it used to be with positional requirements, but you will still have to be aware as every third GCD will require you to hit either a flank or rear. The job, however, is a bit more punishing on death than others since you will lose all your nadi charges when you do die, making getting back into your rotation after death tricky.

Ninja, however, is an incredibly complex job by comparison. There's a lot of things like using a skill to get a proc that you won't use for up to another 20 seconds. Using Bunshin on cooldown but holding Phantom Kamatachi until trick attack, for example. It has a lot more to watch for cooldowns as well.

I was deciding between the two as well for savage, and landed on monk. The more simple playstyle while putting out big damage meant that I could put more of my brain to properly executing fight mechanics instead of playing the job correctly. Monk does have a lot of downtime lull in its rotation, with the only real change up being every 60 seconds during Riddle of Fire, but it is still pretty fast paced having the lowest base GCD.

Ninja mains can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I did get the impression that ninja, also, gets more punished for boss jump phases pushing your whole rotation out of alignment. But that really would depend on if the bosses tend to go untargetable during phases you need to use certain skills.

It's so interesting, because my impression was roughly the opposite.

Once you get the muscle memory for ninjutsu, NIN is quite easy (not at all in a bad way). I had the impression that MNK was the bigger-brain class—MNK has 50 difference openers and 45 subtly difference rotations to optimize various things. NIN has the one opener and the one rotation.

NIN is not really punished at all in savage for bosses going invuln and whatnot. Your rotation is almost completely flexible outside of burst, and for any savage fight, there will be norms about when it makes sense to hold burst until after an invuln window or not (P2S before limit cut, P3S adds, etc.) The one buff you have to maintain on NIN lasts 60 seconds and can be reapplied in 1 GCD after an awkward invuln break.

Maybe I just need to actually try MNK, haha! I basically just play NIN most of the time I'm on.

Thanks for your input gentlemen.

I choose monk, i bought a book.

I knew ninja and played it quite much in lvl 80. The monk is totally different (in a good way though).

While you have tons of button to play on the opener for ninja (again, in shadowbringer, didn't test it here), the rotation for 1 min after that is quite dull.

On the monk, the opener is a little bit "easier" if i can say that, but your rotation is different. Instead of the 3 same button you have at least 6 or more.

I like it very much, and i think it could be my main. I'll see when i'll be 90 and full stuff if it'll be boring, but i doubt it.

Thanks all for your input and sharing your feeling about those jobs :D

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

It's so interesting, because my impression was roughly the opposite.

Once you get the muscle memory for ninjutsu, NIN is quite easy (not at all in a bad way). I had the impression that MNK was the bigger-brain class—MNK has 50 difference openers and 45 subtly difference rotations to optimize various things. NIN has the one opener and the one rotation.

NIN is not really punished at all in savage for bosses going invuln and whatnot. Your rotation is almost completely flexible outside of burst, and for any savage fight, there will be norms about when it makes sense to hold burst until after an invuln window or not (P2S before limit cut, P3S adds, etc.) The one buff you have to maintain on NIN lasts 60 seconds and can be reapplied in 1 GCD after an awkward invuln break.

Maybe I just need to actually try MNK, haha! I basically just play NIN most of the time I'm on.

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It's not the mudras, and I say that as someone who always bounced back and forth between the two jobs. Those are pretty easy to learn, especially if you learn them naturally as you level. It's more things like how many other cooldowns you have to watch, and if you do it wrong, then you've messed up for the next two minutes. Things like watching the rolling timer on trick attack and ninjutsu to make sure you don't use the suiton too soon. You want to use it well before trick attack comes off cooldown so that you have two uses of raiton during trick attack, but not so soon as to lose the suiton buff before you can trick attack. Also there's the ninnki gauge and bunshin to make sure you hold onto the ninki if bunshin is coming off cooldown soon instead of burning it as soon as it's available on bhavacakra. As well as just how much you have to attempt to cram into the trick attack window, which for me was just a chaotic mess.

Monk, on the other hand, just has you hold onto perfect balance to use when you have riddle of fire up. It doesn't have any OCGD damage moves other than forbidden chakra, which you always use as soon as it's available. And you do the same with your damage buffs. So you end up with far fewer parts of your rotation to babysit. The only part to really learn and watch is what combination of moves you want to use in perfect balance to get the right nadi, which if you've played ninja will be really easy, and getting used to the idea that you're in formless fist once you execute a blitz, so you don't have to just pick up your rotation where you left off.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

It's not the mudras, and I say that as someone who always bounced back and forth between the two jobs. Those are pretty easy to learn, especially if you learn them naturally as you level. It's more things like how many other cooldowns you have to watch, and if you do it wrong, then you've messed up for the next two minutes. Things like watching the rolling timer on trick attack and ninjutsu to make sure you don't use the suiton too soon. You want to use it well before trick attack comes off cooldown so that you have two uses of raiton during trick attack, but not so soon as to lose the suiton buff before you can trick attack. Also there's the ninnki gauge and bunshin to make sure you hold onto the ninki if bunshin is coming off cooldown soon instead of burning it as soon as it's available on bhavacakra. As well as just how much you have to attempt to cram into the trick attack window, which for me was just a chaotic mess.

Monk, on the other hand, just has you hold onto perfect balance to use when you have riddle of fire up. It doesn't have any OCGD damage moves other than forbidden chakra, which you always use as soon as it's available. And you do the same with your damage buffs. So you end up with far fewer parts of your rotation to babysit. The only part to really learn and watch is what combination of moves you want to use in perfect balance to get the right nadi, which if you've played ninja will be really easy, and getting used to the idea that you're in formless fist once you execute a blitz, so you don't have to just pick up your rotation where you left off.

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This is very interesting perspective - it really makes me want to try MNK. The points you raise about NIN are interesting - I've mostly treated those things as relatively minimal CD management. Of course, it's hard to know if it's just a matter of being used to it and no longer spending much brain power tracking those CDs. One of the virtues of NIN (though many on the forum seem to disagree) is that it's relatively chill outside of burst windows, so you can devote more attention to setting up burst windows with Suiton, etc.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

This is very interesting perspective - it really makes me want to try MNK. The points you raise about NIN are interesting - I've mostly treated those things as relatively minimal CD management. Of course, it's hard to know if it's just a matter of being used to it and no longer spending much brain power tracking those CDs. One of the virtues of NIN (though many on the forum seem to disagree) is that it's relatively chill outside of burst windows, so you can devote more attention to setting up burst windows with Suiton, etc.

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No this is mostly my feeling too. The biggest hurdle is often just figuring out how to TCJ safely during a high movement phase and adjusting around that. P4SP1 in particular gets me a lot, but that’s because of Pinax.


Oftentimes the problem is death recovery and drift. You’ll encounter problems on phases that should be absolutely clean like FoF on P3S for a mistake made much much earlier that happened to be close or during a TA window. That said, I can’t imagine it would be any better on Monk.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

No this is mostly my feeling too. The biggest hurdle is often just figuring out how to TCJ safely during a high movement phase and adjusting around that. P4SP1 in particular gets me a lot, but that’s because of Pinax.


Oftentimes the problem is death recovery and drift. You’ll encounter problems on phases that should be absolutely clean like FoF on P3S for a mistake made much much earlier that happened to be close or during a TA window. That said, I can’t imagine it would be any better on Monk.

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P3S has a problem near the end where riddle of fire comes up while the boss is untargetable before doing the dive dash across the arena. It's so near the end of the fight that it's not a HUGE deal, but if you don't just burn it up and waste a blitz, then you won't have it up when brotherhood comes up again right before enrage.

That said, if you're not getting to enrage on the fight, then this is even less of an issue.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

That said, if you're not getting to enrage on the fight, then this is even less of an issue.

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Yeah, when people say "problem" in this context, they really mean 'parse problem' rather than 'clear problem,' haha.

The death issue with NIN can be rough in terms of trick alignment, but the key there is to not die :cool:

Back to OP, g'luck with MNK! I think I may have to start leveling one myself to give it a try (though I doubt that any other class could get me to switch mains from NIN).

Damn, i didn't know this thread will be so... polite :D

I'm glad though. Everytime i tried to talk about different class on steam forum that would turn ugly really fast.

Thanks all, i learn much with all your input. I'll stay monk and to be fair, it could be my main hand down, i should had tried it sooner :D

Lol, I was just wondering last night which I should level up next out of MNK, SAM, and NIN (played all to 50-55 prior to EW but never really took interest as more a healer type, but I want to get a physical dps up to 90 now). Some interesting points and input - think I may re-look at levelling Monk. :)

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

Yeah, when people say "problem" in this context, they really mean 'parse problem' rather than 'clear problem,' haha.

The death issue with NIN can be rough in terms of trick alignment, but the key there is to not die :cool:

Back to OP, g'luck with MNK! I think I may have to start leveling one myself to give it a try (though I doubt that any other class could get me to switch mains from NIN).

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I mean it's more just that your cooldowns will go out of alignment. Double checked it last night and yeah riddle of fire comes up right as the boss jumps for it's final dash attack. BUT after it comes back you've only got maybe 90-ish seconds left in the fight before enrage anyway, so it's not a huge deal. Just meant needing to pop riddle of fire and use the AOE skills to charge up an elixir field so I had the lunar nadi when the bird came back.

Was under the impression that ninja was even more strict, though, regarding needing to use your cooldowns at fairly specific times, making boss jump phases more of an issue with things going out of alignment. But maybe the devs timed things in such a way that they're less of a problem than I assumed they would be?

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I mean it's more just that your cooldowns will go out of alignment. Double checked it last night and yeah riddle of fire comes up right as the boss jumps for it's final dash attack. BUT after it comes back you've only got maybe 90-ish seconds left in the fight before enrage anyway, so it's not a huge deal. Just meant needing to pop riddle of fire and use the AOE skills to charge up an elixir field so I had the lunar nadi when the bird came back.

Was under the impression that ninja was even more strict, though, regarding needing to use your cooldowns at fairly specific times, making boss jump phases more of an issue with things going out of alignment. But maybe the devs timed things in such a way that they're less of a problem than I assumed they would be?

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For P2S you’re delaying once by 20s due to limit markers and everything aligns perfectly after that. For P3S you can get one TA use on the first set of adds and then try to hold till the boss returns. You can delay your pot till the odd minute TA after that if you’re forced to rush but ideally you burn adds a tad slower to give it time to sync up on that return. For P4SP1 it’s strict and bad on both Pinaxes specifically but fine everywhere else. P4SP2 isn’t bad but is as strict.

I really don't think that either of them are very complex ultimately.
In the end of the day with NIN especially you have a set window where you're throwing everything into it all lines up naturally unless you're doing something very wrong.
There's not actually anything to in reality keep track on except for when TA is off CD and to not overcap Ninki or Mudras.
I look less on my hotbar on NIN than I do SAM tbh ( and I barely look there either, because things line up on SAM too ).
Everyone has issues too of when to push things in and have to adapt, TCJ does mean you '' can't '' move but I mean mechanics in FFXIV aren't random when they happen you can predict it very easily unless it's the first time you do the fight.

What I will say tho is that NIN is easier to screw up and more punishing to recover with.
And if you have lag issues then Mudras while better than they used to be but will still be a problem.

All 4 melee are balanced with monk being on a tier above them. I'd say monk because even the most skilled nin can't compete against a good monk. Nin brings damage, mnk brings more damage ang utility. Its a better version of ninja right now. Not to say ninja is bad its just a question of if spamming a bunch of buttons and playing on hard mode is fun because fights take longer due to reling on all party members being 80+ parses to give trick attack a good value. Compared to a mnk spamming dragon kick only and bringing more value to the party.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

For P2S you’re delaying once by 20s due to limit markers and everything aligns perfectly after that. For P3S you can get one TA use on the first set of adds and then try to hold till the boss returns. You can delay your pot till the odd minute TA after that if you’re forced to rush but ideally you burn adds a tad slower to give it time to sync up on that return. For P4SP1 it’s strict and bad on both Pinaxes specifically but fine everywhere else. P4SP2 isn’t bad but is as strict.

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Raiton is more effective on adds they die really fast and if the group doesn't stall damage your ta isn't aligned. This is the 2nd place in the tier i hold ta prepping it on the big add. Everywhere else it gets popped off cd including pinax. Nin misses nothing rotation wise on any variation.

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Originally Posted by Hawuhawuu

Raiton is more effective on adds they die really fast and if the group doesn't stall damage your ta isn't aligned. This is the 2nd place in the tier i hold ta prepping it on the big add. Everywhere else it gets popped off cd including pinax. Nin misses nothing rotation wise on any variation.

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Personally I just happened to notice you can get away with it if you don’t hold for the second add set. The thing that doesn’t sync up properly is the potion, not TA.

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Originally Posted by Hawuhawuu

All 4 melee are balanced with monk being on a tier above them. I'd say monk because even the most skilled nin can't compete against a good monk. Nin brings damage, mnk brings more damage ang utility. Its a better version of ninja right now. Not to say ninja is bad its just a question of if spamming a bunch of buttons and playing on hard mode is fun because fights take longer due to reling on all party members being 80+ parses to give trick attack a good value. Compared to a mnk spamming dragon kick only and bringing more value to the party.

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Meanwhile, I swapped from MNK to NIN after having played MNK since ARR lol.

But yeah.
Kinda feel a tad bit bad about it considering how good they are atm + rework.
I just really can't stand their outdated animations for their combos, they feel and look so weak my biggest wish this exp was that MNK would get new combos that looked more like Tifa in the FF7 Remake or something.

That aside, I generally go SAM on new fights for practice because I find it to be easier and easier to perform on when not knowing the fights already.
And I don't have any issues clearing the Savage tier on either of them.
It does suck knowing that I can do more damage with less effort or even if the effort is the same on something else than NIN.
But I think people shouldn't let that decide what they play too.

DNC is the worst DPS currently too and I cleared three of the Savage fights first on DNC because physical ranged was so in demand ( especially hard to find night time too before reset ), and do jump in on it sometimes too for reclear when necessary.
And it's not really a problem either, if I do my part and don't die and people blame me for playing DNC instead of BRD or MCH if we wipe to enrage when other people have died multiple times in the fight then they're just being stupid.
Ultimately people should just play what they want regardless, every Job can clear.
Some of the weirdest comps I've had had the fastest clears on too because people didn't suck while I've had plenty of groups with the best performing Jobs that sucked ass and died to enrage.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Meanwhile, I swapped from MNK to NIN after having played MNK since ARR lol.

But yeah.
Kinda feel a tad bit bad about it considering how good they are atm + rework.
I just really can't stand their outdated animations for their combos, they feel and look so weak my biggest wish this exp was that MNK would get new combos that looked more like Tifa in the FF7 Remake or something.

That aside, I generally go SAM on new fights for practice because I find it to be easier and easier to perform on when not knowing the fights already.
And I don't have any issues clearing the Savage tier on either of them.
It does suck knowing that I can do more damage with less effort or even if the effort is the same on something else than NIN.
But I think people shouldn't let that decide what they play too.

DNC is the worst DPS currently too and I cleared three of the Savage fights first on DNC because physical ranged was so in demand ( especially hard to find night time too before reset ), and do jump in on it sometimes too for reclear when necessary.
And it's not really a problem either, if I do my part and don't die and people blame me for playing DNC instead of BRD or MCH if we wipe to enrage when other people have died multiple times in the fight then they're just being stupid.
Ultimately people should just play what they want regardless, every Job can clear.
Some of the weirdest comps I've had had the fastest clears on too because people didn't suck while I've had plenty of groups with the best performing Jobs that sucked ass and died to enrage.

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Dancer is amazing the rdps i see avoided is mch it doesnt bring enough value. i've cleared the tier with dnc as well and play whatever fits into an almost full party for reclears. It puts out high damage if you partner with a good dps but it really depends on the partner which can add .5k over a bad one. I was able to get 7.5k @590 on p4s door with a purple drg which is just under an average melee player. Curing waltz is what makes dnc shine. In p4s it saves lifes during act 2/cc. I'd always take a dnc over other rdps.

For fast clears nin comps tend to clear fastest in pf. Not because the nin does more dmg but because the of buff alignment. Everyone is trying to line up buffs with ta which dictates buff windows. No other job brings a clear visual indicator on when burst windows are.

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Originally Posted by Hawuhawuu

Dancer is amazing the rdps i see avoided is mch it doesnt bring enough value. i've cleared the tier with dnc as well and play whatever fits into an almost full party for reclears. It puts out high damage if you partner with a good dps but it really depends on the partner which can add .5k over a bad one. I was able to get 7.5k @590 on p4s door with a purple drg which is just under an average melee player. Curing waltz is what makes dnc shine. In p4s it saves lifes during act 2/cc. I'd always take a dnc over other rdps.

For fast clears nin comps tend to clear fastest in pf. Not because the nin does more dmg but because the of buff alignment. Everyone is trying to line up buffs with ta which dictates buff windows. No other job brings a clear visual indicator on when burst windows are.

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You're right that DNC isn't perhaps quite as relient on party members as NIN for dmg since they mainly just buff one person.
Only being relient on one person isn't quite as punishing then again if the whole party sucks then you won't clear either.
But PF gonna PF lol.
They're still behind tho way moreso than NIN.

My overall point was just that people should moreso look at improving their skill level than just pick whatever is the fotm.
Obviously balance and potential matters, but in the end of the day I'd rather take a good NIN over a very meh or even bad SAM.
And tbh if both of them are good then I kinda just don't care because we should be able to clear with either.

I think if people are going to pick MNK over NIN then it should be because it's more enjoyable to play to them rather than just because it puts out higher numbers.
If we were talking about Guild Wars 2 where the numbers are completely out of wack and it has never been balanced and some professions ( jobs ) are just super overpowered then I'd probably be more hesitant to recommend some for more serious play.
But in FFXIV the numbers aren't that different and all of them performs well enough where it shouldn't be a problem.
So I'd just recommend solely based on what's fun etc rather than what puts out a bit bigger numbers.