Content Idea:BCNM

Going along with other ideas for resource sinks, I’d like to propose BCNMs! Iscah’s gilsink inspired me…

What is a BCNM?
From FFXI, “Burning Circle Notorious Monster”, but really it is a trial that is accessed by spending an item to enter with your party. It is a single complex fight with gimmicks, and that you can choose specifically which fight you want.

In FF14 terms, entry is similar to 14’s treasure hunt and the actual trial is more in line with blue mage’s arena fights (gimmicks) or really any 8 man trial.

What’s the point?
They offer bite sized harder content; not meant to be 100% clearable without any real need of storyline or chain of trials like savage. You could focus on one at a time with friends easily as you like.

Since it costs resources for each attempt, you give meaning to excess tomestones/company seals.

How would I do it?

I wouldn’t have entry keys available for straight gil, rather use poetics and grand company seals (different tiers of key for different trials)

I wouldn’t have them introduce any new mechanics or models. Just recycle content, mixing existing monster abilities. on par with the Eureka/Bozja boss fates.

I would make it punishing, like the debuff you get for making a mistake never goes away; 2 or 3 mistakes and dead, etc.

I’d also have lots of gimmicky ones, where you have to figure it out (like blue mage)

What would you get?
In line with Treasure Hunt maps; just a variety of stuff, with general rewards for any, plus specific things available from specific BCNMs.

That’s it!

So you are saying we should have difficult content with a 1-use entry fee that is lost if you fail to clear because little Jimmy was sniffing glue with 50% GCD uptime?

This will go great.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

So you are saying we should have difficult content with a 1-use entry fee that is lost if you fail to clear because little Jimmy was sniffing glue with 50% GCD uptime?

This will go great.

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So, if something like this were to be implemented and it were anything like XI - you wouldn't be doing this with random players. You'd likely form a group for it and as it would be small I imagine you could fill it with people you know aren't glue-sniffers or window-lickers.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

So, if something like this were to be implemented and it were anything like XI - you wouldn't be doing this with random players. You'd likely form a group for it and as it would be small I imagine you could fill it with people you know aren't glue-sniffers or window-lickers.

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Look, I despise the "bUt tHiS iS nOT wOw" argument but this idea takes the worst part of Mythic+ and puts it in XIV. You would literally create content where you'll be hard denied from joining without good parses.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Look, I despise the "bUt tHiS iS nOT wOw" argument but this idea takes the worst part of Mythic+ and puts it in XIV. You would literally create content where you'll be hard denied from joining without good parses.

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...make friends? Do you not know 3-7 other people? (I liked BCNMs in XI, and it sounds like a fun idea).

It would probably need some tweaking in its rewards to be "worthwhile" doing instead of treasure maps and/or to be on par with the relevance of BCNMs in XI, but that would probably be an odd metric considering most BCNMs were for good horizontal gear. I'd love to see that lowman content concept come back though especially if they really leaned into the XI trappings and gave us more unique weapon and gear appearances from it (kclub lookalike please).

I can see them avoiding the concerns Azuri is bringing up by just making them more puzzle type fights like BLU rather than pure skill checks.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

So, if something like this were to be implemented and it were anything like XI - you wouldn't be doing this with random players. You'd likely form a group for it and as it would be small I imagine you could fill it with people you know aren't glue-sniffers or window-lickers.

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Too bad for you, but it works really nicely in FF11
It is not going to be a content for everyone but it is going to be a piece of content for people who likes team play

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Originally Posted by Azuri

So you are saying we should have difficult content with a 1-use entry fee that is lost if you fail to clear because little Jimmy was sniffing glue with 50% GCD uptime?

This will go great.

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I mean, you're clearly not familiar with how it was in XI; there is no duty finder system. You ONLY did it with trusted people. Also, harder does not mean ultimate level difficulty. Something the Rathalos EX when it was current is like, perfect.

Personally, my friends have fun figuring things out. We did in XI, and we still do now when we do Eden, etc together.

And, as is in XIV, you CAN do treasure maps with random people, but there is no system to support that either- you have to shout/gather people and talk out what you're doing. The only person to blame if you get "Jimmy" is you for not choosing your party carefully or doing it with strangers.

From where come the need of unlock keys. I know treasure maps have them but to me it feels more of a detriment to the experience than an improvement. If the fights are well made and fun to do, why not just leave them open for people to enjoy?

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

It would probably need some tweaking in its rewards to be "worthwhile" doing instead of treasure maps and/or to be on par with the relevance of BCNMs in XI, but that would probably be an odd metric considering most BCNMs were for good horizontal gear. I'd love to see that lowman content concept come back though especially if they really leaned into the XI trappings and gave us more unique weapon and gear appearances from it (kclub lookalike please).

I can see them avoiding the concerns Azuri is bringing up by just making them more puzzle type fights like BLU rather than pure skill checks.

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I mean, ideally it'd be a completely different pool of items, similar to how treasure hunt or Eureka has..but it's own thing. Heck, I'd be fine if it was all current-existing gear, but level 1 glamour versions- even if only select parts (like the plate armor body, but a healer can wear it like we had in FF11)

Personally, I'd prefer if these were just pure combat with gimmicks, rather than gimmick-based..but I guess that's the fun of it- there could be a large variety. Even could be joke fights like 4v4 (4 npcs) where the NPCs are all retainers like we sometimes see in the field/wolves' den. (just costume and "in story" they are retainers not any actual player's retainers)

Also, just differentiating from maps: for Maps you can hold 3 at any time (1 open, 1 in either storage), and you are not guaranteed a portal. Once inside, after each fight you aren't guaranteed a next room, so the primary thing for maps is luck instead of skill. The fights themselves are random, but easy: You essentially have a 100% chance to win, as long as you're playing with any competency.

For BCNM, you are 100% guaranteed to get the fight of your choosing, but ideally a 50-70% chance to clear with basic competency. And if each fight has it's own unique drops, all the better.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

From where come the need of unlock keys. I know treasure maps have them but to me it feels more of a detriment to the experience than an improvement. If the fights are well made and fun to do, why not just leave them open for people to enjoy?

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In 11, as you killed Beastmen (goblins etc) you would gain "Beastman Seals" which could be traded for a trade-able item at the battle location. For this, the currency'd be poetics and/or GC seals

The point for this is, if you can do it infinitely, then you can just throw yourself at it until you luck out and then it might as well just be a plain old trial.
With a "cost" to enter, you're limited to how many you can do, and therefore want to do it carefully..a bit like gambling.
Also, it's something to do with a largely useless currency once you're capped out. I bought about 7,000 ventures during 5.0 with GC seals... I'll never ever run out. There's nothing else on that list I can possibly use; even the stuff that's sellable is not worth the effort to sell.

Gambling? Like some free to play game? Hard pass. This sounds like the system that many WoW players are vocally upset about and I cannot say I'd support this over other forms of battle content.

I loved the BCNM in FFXI they could be really fun and also a challenge. I did a good few way back as a Duo and really enjoyed them.

I remember we did one I can not remember the names it was a lot of slimes and at the time it glitched and for some reason we could not kill them in time. We lost the item we had farmed after contacting a GM it was a bug haha. We went back and refarmed even though we where a bit fed up lol but that is what I enjoyed in XI the challenge.

The game has so much content for people from casual to other so I would love this :)

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Originally Posted by kaynide

In 11, as you killed Beastmen (goblins etc) you would gain "Beastman Seals" which could be traded for a trade-able item at the battle location. For this, the currency'd be poetics and/or GC seals

The point for this is, if you can do it infinitely, then you can just throw yourself at it until you luck out and then it might as well just be a plain old trial.
With a "cost" to enter, you're limited to how many you can do, and therefore want to do it carefully..a bit like gambling.
Also, it's something to do with a largely useless currency once you're capped out. I bought about 7,000 ventures during 5.0 with GC seals... I'll never ever run out. There's nothing else on that list I can possibly use; even the stuff that's sellable is not worth the effort to sell.

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The limiting factor regular people already have is time. People already dont want their time to be wasted from non functional groups.

If you make the cost of entry so lax that it basically doesnt matter like if you were to use GC seals for it then you might aswell cut that step. If the only thing that's different about your suggestions from normal trials is the entry method then you very clearly have not struck gold with your suggestion. What's the problem with doing a fight until you figure it out? Wouldnt you still have to do that even with an entry cost? Wouldnt that just lead to looking up detailed guides beforehand basically being mandatory? Wouldnt that just punish blind groups for no good reason?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Too bad for you, but it works really nicely in FF11
It is not going to be a content for everyone but it is going to be a piece of content for people who likes team play

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Hah? I was saying it wouldn't be duty finder content. You'd make a group for it either via PF or with friends. I should have quoted the post before mine saying it wouldn't be good because someone making a mistake due to 'glue-sniffing' would cause a wipe.

I played a lot of FFXI during Rise of the Zilart and Chains of Promathia. I really liked BCNMs.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Gambling? Like some free to play game? Hard pass. This sounds like the system that many WoW players are vocally upset about and I cannot say I'd support this over other forms of battle content.

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Oh lord, we're talking the most scratch-ticket of scratch tickets in "gambling" here. I mean, sure, if you're going to ignore everything else written and zero in on the word "Gambling", I can't really help you.

I have no idea what Wow does, so I can't comment there. This is the equivalent of a carnival game where you pay to knock over the bottles, but unless you know the trick or figure it out it, you probably won't win the prize first shot. Even going in blind you could win though, but it's not like you are losing weeks of life because you goofed...or whatever stupid thing WoW does.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

The limiting factor regular people already have is time. People already dont want their time to be wasted from non functional groups.

If you make the cost of entry so lax that it basically doesnt matter like if you were to use GC seals for it then you might aswell cut that step. If the only thing that's different about your suggestions from normal trials is the entry method then you very clearly have not struck gold with your suggestion. What's the problem with doing a fight until you figure it out? Wouldnt you still have to do that even with an entry cost? Wouldnt that just lead to looking up detailed guides beforehand basically being mandatory? Wouldnt that just punish blind groups for no good reason?

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I mean, if it cost like, 15,000 GC seals for 1 shot, that's not "nothing". 30,000 maybe even 50,000 for the "hard" ones. It's not hard to get, but it's not like it'll replenish in a day unless you're going full-nerd mode. Or like 1-2,000 poetics.

The problem is "figuring it out" doesn't make it different from a normal trial, in which case, there's no point. The point, entirely, of BCNM is the increased risk-reward.

Also, the point of this is not for hardcore raiders to do. They have content. They would certainly burn through this in a week with lots of grinding.

After the dust settles, this is for a group of friends who want to goof off on a Friday night, when they're all like "hey guys, I have a butt ton of seals built up.. wanna go do a few BCNM? Maybe get that (herpaderp)?"
..basically what we already do with maps.

I would enjoy it. I like the idea of hard to reach places/fights that consume time as long as they are optional.

This wouldn’t be content for everyone, it would be content for people with time to waste. I think the people who want everything immediately and easily accessible don’t realize there are others with more time that would enjoy intricate content. Not everything needs to cater to folk who don’t have time to play longer video games. This mentality of I should have everything easily accessible to me because I don’t have time for it is detrimental to the game.

There is already content that isn’t meant for casuals, such as savage and ultimate. So why shouldn’t there be content that takes a while for people who aren’t hard core, but want to have neat time sinks with decent rewards?

I actually like the idea of the BCNMs dropping a random dyeable gear item that is lvl 1 and can be equipped by all classes. Each BCNM could have a different pool of gear. It would get people really running that content to get that gear piece from another job they wished they had.

This could easily keep people subbed for longer.

Ath192: Basically yeah; if each BCNM had 1 or 2 rare RNG drops that'd be amazing.

I'd say my target audience is the mid-core players. People who do the raid series, but not really interested in Savage...and also people who play fairly long term, generating lots of unused currency. Basically something to do once you've done all the main content,but also something you can just "pick up and play" with friends without lots of scheduling/organizing.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Gambling? Like some free to play game? Hard pass. This sounds like the system that many WoW players are vocally upset about and I cannot say I'd support this over other forms of battle content.

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*Looks at squadron loot boxes, PotD/HoH shards, Wonderous tales, Faux Hollows, Cactpots*
I mean, it's not like it's 100% like a free to play ga-
*Looks at story/level skips and cash shop*
Nevermind. :/

I played XI. I liked BCNMs back then.

You know what fills that itch in XIV?

Savage raids.

It really wouldn't be any different in implementation or loot distribution, minus the fact that you don't have to farm a key item.

Want to farm a key item? Well, that's what maps are doing in XIV, with the same loot pinata effect that BCNMs did.

As a former XI player I whole heartedly agree that this would be a boon to the game. BCNMs were a lot of fun, you didn't burn out on them and they had a lot of really good drops and pieces to get from them, heck still do.

They were so diverse; none were the same really and varied in difficulty. I really looked forward to the nights our ls set aside to do them. Always a good time.

I think my old BST (75cap) had 10 stacks on beast seals.

BCNM20 anyone?

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Going along with other ideas for resource sinks, I’d like to propose BCNMs! Iscah’s gilsink inspired me…

What is a BCNM?
From FFXI, “Burning Circle Notorious Monster”, but really it is a trial that is accessed by spending an item to enter with your party. It is a single complex fight with gimmicks, and that you can choose specifically which fight you want.

In FF14 terms, entry is similar to 14’s treasure hunt and the actual trial is more in line with blue mage’s arena fights (gimmicks) or really any 8 man trial.

What’s the point?
They offer bite sized harder content; not meant to be 100% clearable without any real need of storyline or chain of trials like savage. You could focus on one at a time with friends easily as you like.

Since it costs resources for each attempt, you give meaning to excess tomestones/company seals.

How would I do it?

I wouldn’t have entry keys available for straight gil, rather use poetics and grand company seals (different tiers of key for different trials)

I wouldn’t have them introduce any new mechanics or models. Just recycle content, mixing existing monster abilities. on par with the Eureka/Bozja boss fates.

I would make it punishing, like the debuff you get for making a mistake never goes away; 2 or 3 mistakes and dead, etc.

I’d also have lots of gimmicky ones, where you have to figure it out (like blue mage)

What would you get?
In line with Treasure Hunt maps; just a variety of stuff, with general rewards for any, plus specific things available from specific BCNMs.

That’s it!

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Maps and the treasure dungeons are quite literally FFXIVs version of this. Just without carefully traversing a dungeon so an angry elemental doesn't wipe your group with one spell.

Hard pass

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Maps and the treasure dungeons are quite literally FFXIVs version of this. Just without carefully traversing a dungeon so an angry elemental doesn't wipe your group with one spell.

Hard pass

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Except (as I said), treasure maps are cakewake/faceroll easy, but not guaranteed to pop, nor are you rewarded for skill of clearing a fight as it’s entirely random whether you even make it to the end.

…also there is no dungeon to traverse in the actual BCNM itself… that’s not something I was talking about at all.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I played XI. I liked BCNMs back then.

You know what fills that itch in XIV?

Savage raids.

It really wouldn't be any different in implementation or loot distribution, minus the fact that you don't have to farm a key item.

Want to farm a key item? Well, that's what maps are doing in XIV, with the same loot pinata effect that BCNMs did.

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My key point was to have risk reward, whereas you can do savage as many times as you want until it’s cleared.

Also, once savage/ex is done…they’re done. I haven’t really farmed old savage stuff as their gear was useless by the time I touched them. The gear/drops I’d be interested in are much more in line with like.. Eureka.

Treasure maps, even old ones in Stormblood, we still do about once a month for lols/something fun to do with possible interesting/sellable/fun drops, so something like BCNM I can’t really see as comparable to savage aside from the “figure it out” itch.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Except (as I said), treasure maps are cakewake/faceroll easy, but not guaranteed to pop, nor are you rewarded for skill of clearing a fight as it’s entirely random whether you even make it to the end.

…also there is no dungeon to traverse in the actual BCNM itself… that’s not something I was talking about at all.

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RNG is what takes the place of whatever difficulty you're referring to with the BCNM's. Maps also reward items and gil just for opening the chests even w/o a portal, while BCNM's in FFXI you could walk away with diddly squat for the amount of time spent, and a lot lighter with your seals.

I brought up traversing a dungeon because this is what you have to do to get to a BCNM in most cases. Unprepared groups that don't over level the dungeon might not even make it to the BC, let alone fight the monster(s) within it. As a former FFXI player back in the 2002 to 2007 era, I remember how ridiculously frustrating that was. Getting groups together for it, agreeing on the loot distribution, shouting for teleports to the nearest crag. What players put themselves though for the Utsusemi: Ni ninja scroll definitely could not be healthy long term. And while I know many of those things improved after I left the game, it remains a system that would not work in FFXIV. Players simply will not put forward that kind of time for rewards they are not guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

RNG is what takes the place of whatever difficulty you're referring to with the BCNM's. Maps also reward items and gil just for opening the chests even w/o a portal, while BCNM's in FFXI you could walk away with diddly squat for the amount of time spent, and a lot lighter with your seals.

I brought up traversing a dungeon because this is what you have to do to get to a BCNM in most cases. Unprepared groups that don't over level the dungeon might not even make it to the BC, let alone fight the monster(s) within it. As a former FFXI player back in the 2002 to 2007 era, I remember how ridiculously frustrating that was. Getting groups together for it, agreeing on the loot distribution, shouting for teleports to the nearest crag. What players put themselves though for the Utsusemi: Ni ninja scroll definitely could not be healthy long term. And while I know many of those things improved after I left the game, it remains a system that would not work in FFXIV. Players simply will not put forward that kind of time for rewards they are not guaranteed.

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There simply aren't open world dungeons in FFXIV; this just isn't a thing. In reality a FFXIV BCNM would probably just be Ul'dah's Arena. I mean, maybe it could be the aetherytes in the beasttribe bases... but either way you're not even going to get aggro there as you can just fly.

Regarding drop frustration, well, yeah. That's apples and oranges. Getting the scorpion harness in FFXIV has RNG, but it's not nearly as frustrating to get as waiting for Serket to pop and pray he actually drops the thing.

FFXIV has a completely different reward philosophy, throwing rewards at you, constantly. There is nothing in this game that retains a price tag/rarity that things like magic scrolls in FFXI had, unless you want to argue over old event items like Christmas trees. Certainly nothing that would be worth fighting over or that couldn't be solved with "your entry key, your drops" like treasure maps.

The entire point of this is that it is incredibly similar to maps, yes, but it is also a completely different experience (eg a test of skill, not a test of luck).

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Too bad for you, but it works really nicely in FF11
It is not going to be a content for everyone but it is going to be a piece of content for people who likes team play

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if people liked "team play" they wouldnt be going all in on buffing things with Alphinaud and crew...

Doesn't sound like my cup of tea but I'm sure there are others who would enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

So you are saying we should have difficult content with a 1-use entry fee that is lost if you fail to clear because little Jimmy was sniffing glue with 50% GCD uptime?

This will go great.

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Don't queue with Little Jimmy. Queue with players you know and trust. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Look, I despise the "bUt tHiS iS nOT wOw" argument but this idea takes the worst part of Mythic+ and puts it in XIV. You would literally create content where you'll be hard denied from joining without good parses.

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If the rewards were on par with treasure map rewards, there would be no pressure to do the content.

Why object to something optional that probably would require a relatively small amount of development time to create since it would be relying on things already in the game?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

if people liked "team play" they wouldnt be going all in on buffing things with Alphinaud and crew...

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Except many players do like team play and so SE continues to produce group content. If people hated team play as much as you imply, they'd stop making EX/Savage/Ultimate/PvP/etc. and be making all duties solo duties going forward. They're not doing that.

The upcoming changes aren't a replacement for group content (outside of Cape Westwind and the Lahabrea fight). They're an alternate way for those not comfortable with group content to experience it.

Both can co-exist. SE could possibly even take the OP's idea and make it scaling like they're doing with the Criterion Dungeons so players can do it solo or with friends as they like.