I believe Houses SHOULD be sellable/tradable, otherwise what's the point of Gil?

I already know a TON of people are going to hate me for saying this, but I genuinely believe that this idea that "housing should be COMPLETELY random, everyone should have the same chance" is actually an extremely negative idea.

Thing is, MMO's NEED to have an economy. And let's face it; VERY few players actually engage with crafting tradeskills. It's because it's a lot of work, and the "reward" is selling items on Market Board for Gil.

But what's the point of Gil if there's nothing to spent it on?

Now I completely understand the fear of Real-Money Trading (RMT). But this is essentially punishing ALL players for the actions of those exploiting loopholes. And those loopholes are problematic, only because there isn't an official means of selling/trading Houses, which could ALSO double as a money-sink.

Now INITIALLY, yes; houses would probably be expensive. But if you implement a sort of in-game "tax" for buying/selling/trading Houses -- maybe even scales higher for higher amounts -- eventually it would get enough money out of the game, it would actually stabilize the economy, ensuring those with less gil actually COULD afford houses.

Of course, Selling and Trading plots are two different things entirely. Trading means "I have Plot 23, you have Plot 10, I'll pay you X amount of Gil just to trade places with me". THAT doesn't even affect the Housing system, as it would require both parties own a house anyways. It just allows players to get a plot they really want.

But Buying/Selling plots, I think it also totally justifiable. It's just forcing players who REALLY want a house to resort to sketchy outside sources or RMT.

As I said, I know a LOT of people are going to disagree with this, but I genuinely think that but not allowing players to either Buy/Sell/Trade or even get multiple lottery tickets, it's essentially removing any incentive whatsoever to engage in tradeskills or the game's economy.

First, how is giving everyone the same chance at owning a house a "negative idea"? Is this just another thinly veiled effort to improve the chances of people like yourself, at the expense of others, of getting a house? Second, this "buy and sell houses" idea PREDOMINANTLY helps those who are engaged in RMT. Most house owners in this game are NOT inclined to just dump their houses. These houses are too precious to them for that. There are a few people who have downsized to apartments to avoid the hassle of having to log in every so often but these people are few and far between. Housing in this game was NEVER meant to be a Gil-making enterprise. It was meant to be a money sink and a feature that would add additional entertainment value to players who are in to housing. There is so much wrong with your post that I am seriously wondering what your real intent is.

I realize this is about housing, but one piece you mentioned is the economy in-game. If SE cared about the economy, they wouldn't nuke rare items (minions and so on) by introducing loot boxes in every patch that gave people everything from previous patches.

I agree that the game needs actual gil sinks but it shouldn't be housing in my opinion... Housing should be accesible to everyone because its one of the selling points of ffxiv and a whole another world of content itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I agree that the game needs actual gil sinks but it shouldn't be housing in my opinion... Housing should be accesible to everyone because its one of the selling points of ffxiv and a whole another world of content itself.

---

The accessibility problem is not due to the cost of housing. It is due to the LACK of housing. That is a whole other topic that can be discussed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minarisweet

I agree that the game needs actual gil sinks but it shouldn't be housing in my opinion

---

erp sessions are pretty expensive

Can I have your gil?

I have plenty, but it still isn't enough for everything I want.

It would be more constructive to post this in the housing section!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terin

I already know a TON of people are going to hate me for saying this, but I genuinely believe that this idea that "housing should be COMPLETELY random, everyone should have the same chance" is actually an extremely negative idea.

Thing is, MMO's NEED to have an economy. And let's face it; VERY few players actually engage with crafting tradeskills. It's because it's a lot of work, and the "reward" is selling items on Market Board for Gil.

But what's the point of Gil if there's nothing to spent it on?

Now I completely understand the fear of Real-Money Trading (RMT). But this is essentially punishing ALL players for the actions of those exploiting loopholes. And those loopholes are problematic, only because there isn't an official means of selling/trading Houses, which could ALSO double as a money-sink.

Now INITIALLY, yes; houses would probably be expensive. But if you implement a sort of in-game "tax" for buying/selling/trading Houses -- maybe even scales higher for higher amounts -- eventually it would get enough money out of the game, it would actually stabilize the economy, ensuring those with less gil actually COULD afford houses.

Of course, Selling and Trading plots are two different things entirely. Trading means "I have Plot 23, you have Plot 10, I'll pay you X amount of Gil just to trade places with me". THAT doesn't even affect the Housing system, as it would require both parties own a house anyways. It just allows players to get a plot they really want.

But Buying/Selling plots, I think it also totally justifiable. It's just forcing players who REALLY want a house to resort to sketchy outside sources or RMT.

As I said, I know a LOT of people are going to disagree with this, but I genuinely think that but not allowing players to either Buy/Sell/Trade or even get multiple lottery tickets, it's essentially removing any incentive whatsoever to engage in tradeskills or the game's economy.

---

We do have an economy. It is not dependent on housing.

We have things to purchase with gil, though those things can be more desirable or less desirable to buy depending on the player.

Selling/trading houses directly between players only opens the floodgates for RMT to flourish even more because prices would quickly rise higher than what the average player could afford. No tax on player to player housing sales would ever keep up with the rate that new gil enters the game economy. All those little amounts passively generated by millions of players doing content far outweigh what a tax levied on a relative handful of players would.

There are plenty of reasons for players to engage with tradeskills and the rest of the game's economy if they want. It's also okay if they don't want to engage.

What we need for a gil sink is something both desirable and reusable. Housing is a one-time expense, so it's not much of a sink. (I mean, it's a huge time sink to prowl the wards looking for an open plot and then camp there clicking the placard and hoping to be the lucky one, but that's another thread.)

Saying there's nothing to spend gil on but using housing as an example is a poor argument. It's the buy and trade of houses that actually made things for players with less gil even have less chance to get the house they wanted in the first place. And since housing itself is a finite feature, there are people who won't give up the house of their dreams short of an act of god where they live (in real life) that forces their hand to give up their house, usually through the demo timer.

A proper gil sink for FFXIV would have to be items or features that can only be bought with gil and have recurring expenses attached to them. That or a system where multiple steps requiring gil only is needed to complete.

Yeah, those people with 9000 billion gil totally wouldn't buy an entire ward then sell them at 100 times the original value...

I think gil sinks like the mounts they added are a good idea. Just make them less hideous and I will buy them, make some gil sink minions too. I have 86 mill atm which is pennies vs other people but still. I wouldn't mind a nice expensive mount to buy. Though I do plan on buying my fc a large if I can so 50mill is aside for that.

Just implement a reasonable weekly tax on the houses.
Something like 1% of the buying price.
Every active player should not have a problem to earn some Gil to keep at least their small plot.

And everyone who owns a big house will defenetly have enough Gil for it or a whole FC to pay for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Curisu

Just implement a reasonable weekly tax on the houses.
Something like 1% of the buying price.
Every active player should not have a problem to earn some Gil to keep at least their small plot.

And everyone who owns a big house will defenetly have enough Gil for it or a whole FC to pay for it.

---

I think you need to check your math. Let's take the top of the line medium plot that sells for 20 million Gil. 1% of that is 200,000 Gil. You want to charge players that much PER WEEK. People would riot and this game would suffer. If you REALLY want to charge property taxes in order to add another money sink, something more modest like perhaps less than a TENTH of what you were requesting might be more adequate but even then, players would still be upset. So you see the addition of property tax would probably not be a good idea. There are already other money sinks in the game, the biggest being portal costs. I'm not really sure we actually need more money sinks. Those who have billions of Gil primarily got their money through focused efforts on crafting and playing the markets. There are a significant number of billionaires but they are still just a drop in the bucket compared to the majority of players who might have just a few million Gil (or even less) to their names. Additional money sinks tend to disproportionately hurt the poor and are but a tickle to the rich.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

What we need for a gil sink is something both desirable and reusable. Housing is a one-time expense, so it's not much of a sink. (I mean, it's a huge time sink to prowl the wards looking for an open plot and then camp there clicking the placard and hoping to be the lucky one, but that's another thread.)

---

One solution is what Lord of the Rings Online did. The housing districts we have in FFXIV clearly originated with the housing system in LotRO. What that game does differently however is that you have to pay upkeep on your house. It's a small fraction of the overall cost of the house, but every so often you have to pay a small fee/tax in order to keep using the house. I want to say the fee was once a week but you could bank up to a month's worth ahead of time so you'd only have to put more money in once a month really.

It wasn't enough to bankrupt you or be a major issue, but it was a constant drain of funds from the economy and discourages people to buy up houses if they aren't going to actually use them.

A tax would also make some people think twice if they really want a House.
There are so many abandoned plots that have nothing on them for month.

Also, give me a option to store all my damn housing event item's.
Because right now I don't have the motivation to do something new with my house, but I don't want to sell it because of all the housing items that i have no inventory space for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Yeah, those people with 9000 billion gil totally wouldn't buy an entire ward then sell them at 100 times the original value...

---

lol that's exactly what I thought. No way it wouldn't be abused immediately by RMTers

Just no. Anything that motivates RMT should be avoided at all cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terin

But Buying/Selling plots, I think it also totally justifiable. It's just forcing players who REALLY want a house to resort to sketchy outside sources or RMT

---

You literally just gave the very reason why what you're proposing is a bad idea. They've had to make adjustments because this was a thing that was already happening (EG: Selling actual FC's for real money)

That feeling when a developer has to change the way's housing is handled because of aforementioned sketchy outside of game arrangements.

Sorry, but no. Not on board.

My gil sink is needing to buy White Dyes for 500K a pop all the time...

I even wasted quite a few dying my Glamor Plate directly instead of the item, and was in for quite the rude awakening when I wanted to rearrange my plates and saw that my items were no longer dyed... lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I think gil sinks like the mounts they added are a good idea. Just make them less hideous and I will buy them, make some gil sink minions too.

---

Agreed. Gil sink mounts are great ...but the 2 golden mounts are just common beast tribe recolors and the FATE voucher mount is a really ugly dinosaur.

Gil sink minions would be nice too, but minions are basically lootbox fodder to push people into whatever deep dungeon, moogle tome or eureka copy they make next. There's no point spending a few million on a minion that might be 10k a few months later.

I'd also like dev confirmation that gil sink mounts won't appear in the next Grand Company Material coffer. The 3.0 and 4.0 coffers contain almost any tradable mount or minion from those expansions. There's no guarantee they won't add a 5.0 coffer somewhere down the line that includes the golden mounts, since they're tradable.

So what op is suggesting would essentially encourage RMT side deals on discord or elsewhere. As for his tax idea, people would just make an in game transaction for a minimal amount of gils and send the rest separately. No, keep housing accessible to everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terin

But what's the point of Gil if there's nothing to spent it on?

---

You clearly do not do Roleplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

We do have an economy. It is not dependent on housing.

We have things to purchase with gil, though those things can be more desirable or less desirable to buy depending on the player.

Selling/trading houses directly between players only opens the floodgates for RMT to flourish even more because prices would quickly rise higher than what the average player could afford. No tax on player to player housing sales would ever keep up with the rate that new gil enters the game economy. All those little amounts passively generated by millions of players doing content far outweigh what a tax levied on a relative handful of players would.

There are plenty of reasons for players to engage with tradeskills and the rest of the game's economy if they want. It's also okay if they don't want to engage.

---

I don't think the state of the economy right now is "you don't have to engage with it if you don't want to :)" because you definitely have to if you're into housing, meanwhile when it comes to combat gameplay after a week or two crafter gear gets really really cheap and materia becomes very affordable too with roulette money or the same money you got from doing msq... so its more like if you play this content you have to gil sink if you don't then gil is a non issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

My gil sink is needing to buy White Dyes for 500K a pop all the time...

I even wasted quite a few dying my Glamor Plate directly instead of the item, and was in for quite the rude awakening when I wanted to rearrange my plates and saw that my items were no longer dyed... lol.

---

It's definitely a money saver once you realize you can dye the item, then put in the dresser, then apply it. Especially if you move plates around/want to use it in a second glamour - in the same colour. Another fun one that a lot of people might not realize, once an item is on the plate, you can take it out of the dresser and it still works as long as it is on that plate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

If SE cared about the economy, they wouldn't nuke rare items (minions and so on) by introducing loot boxes in every patch that gave people everything from previous patches.

---

That's about reducing the reliance on old content. They don't want people to feel like they have to "waste" their maps doing level 70s instead of 90s, and such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eraden

I think you need to check your math. Let's take the top of the line medium plot that sells for 20 million Gil. 1% of that is 200,000 Gil.

---

You think that is much? anyone that plays once a week can make this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eraden

Additional money sinks tend to disproportionately hurt the poor and are but a tickle to the rich.

---

Just tax the richer more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terin

I already know a TON of people are going to hate me for saying this, but I genuinely believe that this idea that "housing should be COMPLETELY random, everyone should have the same chance" is actually an extremely negative idea.

Thing is, MMO's NEED to have an economy. And let's face it; VERY few players actually engage with crafting tradeskills. It's because it's a lot of work, and the "reward" is selling items on Market Board for Gil.

But what's the point of Gil if there's nothing to spent it on?

Now I completely understand the fear of Real-Money Trading (RMT). But this is essentially punishing ALL players for the actions of those exploiting loopholes. And those loopholes are problematic, only because there isn't an official means of selling/trading Houses, which could ALSO double as a money-sink.

Now INITIALLY, yes; houses would probably be expensive. But if you implement a sort of in-game "tax" for buying/selling/trading Houses -- maybe even scales higher for higher amounts -- eventually it would get enough money out of the game, it would actually stabilize the economy, ensuring those with less gil actually COULD afford houses.

Of course, Selling and Trading plots are two different things entirely. Trading means "I have Plot 23, you have Plot 10, I'll pay you X amount of Gil just to trade places with me". THAT doesn't even affect the Housing system, as it would require both parties own a house anyways. It just allows players to get a plot they really want.

But Buying/Selling plots, I think it also totally justifiable. It's just forcing players who REALLY want a house to resort to sketchy outside sources or RMT.

As I said, I know a LOT of people are going to disagree with this, but I genuinely think that but not allowing players to either Buy/Sell/Trade or even get multiple lottery tickets, it's essentially removing any incentive whatsoever to engage in tradeskills or the game's economy.

---

Do you want to cause a housing recession in this game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmpelioB

You think that is much? anyone that plays once a week can make this.



Just tax the richer more.

---

That actually IS a lot of money to a good many people playing this game. Additionally, they should not have to spend a significant amount of their game time just trying to tread water.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eraden

First, how is giving everyone the same chance at owning a house a "negative idea"? Is this just another thinly veiled effort to improve the chances of people like yourself, at the expense of others, of getting a house? Second, this "buy and sell houses" idea PREDOMINANTLY helps those who are engaged in RMT. Most house owners in this game are NOT inclined to just dump their houses. These houses are too precious to them for that. There are a few people who have downsized to apartments to avoid the hassle of having to log in every so often but these people are few and far between. Housing in this game was NEVER meant to be a Gil-making enterprise. It was meant to be a money sink and a feature that would add additional entertainment value to players who are in to housing. There is so much wrong with your post that I am seriously wondering what your real intent is.

---

I think skepticism is totally fair.

Here's the thing, though; Houses are clearly extremely limited. I certainly hope they can continue to add Wards, and it would be AWESOME if there were enough Houses to give everyone their choice of plot. That is sadly not going to happen any time soon (especially when the Devs just recently talked about the difficulties of acquiring additional servers).

That makes Housing a commodity, both desirable and limited. That gives it value, regardless of anyone's thoughts on the matter.

By letting people at least TRADE houses, it would immediately open up a lot of options. For example, I have one of the beachfront Smalls in The Mist, which I think many consider pretty desirable. However, my sister has a small in Lavender beds. I would totally trade my house for one in her same ward, because I feel like that would just be a lot of fun.

With the current rules in place, I will likely NEVER have an opportunity to become "neighbors" with any of my friends. Because how astronomical is that chance, really? You'd have to hope that specific person just quits the game, and then go to the placard and click like hell for anywhere from, what, 2-to-16 hours? Something like that? Which I have a job, so that ALSO needs to all happen over the weekend. And I have probably, literally a 1-second window (at best) to purchase the relocation, because there are going to be others there doing the same thing.

OR...

I could whisper the owner when I saw them, say "hey how would you like to trade houses?", maybe I even pay an in-game fee as a gil-sink, and BAM! Both parties are super happy.

Now taking this further, I honestly believe Buying and Selling should be possible. Because if you REALLY want to make Gil, it's actually remarkably easy. Again, just work up crafting skills and start selling stuff. That gives YOU, the Player, complete agency in whether or not you can get a house. Because otherwise, it's LITERALLY a lottery. It's "fair" in that everyone gets the same chance, but I would argue it's NOT fair to those who are really willing to work towards a goal. If you don't already have a house, it is very likely that you will NEVER get a house as-is. Buy enabling the buying and selling of houses, ANYONE would be able to get a house -- you just have to earn some gil.

And again, throw a sizable fee on top, and it doubles as a gil-sink. Make it like a 25% "tax". So if a guy wants 75m for his house, it might actually cost 100m. But then that's 25m taken out of the economy, meaning that over time, it would drive prices down. Again, probably CRAZY expensive at the start, but over time things would level out.

That's not to say there isn't a place for the Lottery system. I do think it's a great idea for a newly-opened location, and if a house is relinquished or demolished, I think the lottery's great, especially for people who work. I think we would all agree, it's a massive improvement over the current system. But I think we'll just run into the same issue, where the housing market is completely static. At the VERY least, allowing people to Trade plots opens up some level of flexibility.

Instead, how about we completely redo housing and turn it instanced so that everyone can have a house? All I'm doing is saving gil to purchase a house, but there are so many other things I need to purchase for crafting and other things that I would want. And, I just want to relocate to be with my friends, but you screwed that up too.

Time to move past the 19th Century way of thinking, SE. 'Neighborhood thoughts' are literally ruining the opportunity for everyone to get a house. Your player-base is growing exponentially every year, and you add a fraction of wards to accommodate that growth. The housing market should not be another elitist purchase. Instance housing so you take the server load off this 'instance inside of an instance, inside of an instance' Mickey Mouse setup and players can actually stop waiting around a plaque for literally hours on end waiting to purchase a plot of land.

It's literally ridiculous to have to macro to click for a house, and your methodology of forcing players into this funnel to purchase a plot is unhealthy. You talk a lot the health of your staff but don't give a damn about the player-base so long as they 'play the game'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terin

That makes Housing a commodity, both desirable and limited. That gives it value, regardless of anyone's thoughts on the matter.

---

It's unfortunate to think this way because of the fact that you cannot trade houses, but I totally get your entirety of your post (and agree! there should be some type of trade system for housing) - I'm just pointing out one thing here, so I hope not to take it out of context.

You can't sell them (and I mean legitimately here), and you can't buy them from players (again, legitimately). You can't assign value to something that has no value once it's purchased by a player, because it becomes only valuable to that one player. There's no market value other than what SE decides. Just my $.02

RMT is a concern, but that argument could be applied to any number of things in the game. As an extreme example you could use the same argument to say we shouldn't ever be able to trade with anyone, because that facilities RMT too. That line of argument leads to games like BDO where it's almost impossible to do RMT, but you also can barely interact with other players at all. Can't even set your own prices in the auction house in an effort to combat it.

If SE isn't going to fix the housing system with personalized instances, they should acknowledge it is what it is and give an in-game way for people to trade/sell plots with gil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terin

And again, throw a sizable fee on top, and it doubles as a gil-sink. Make it like a 25% "tax". So if a guy wants 75m for his house, it might actually cost 100m. But then that's 25m taken out of the economy, meaning that over time, it would drive prices down. Again, probably CRAZY expensive at the start, but over time things would level out.

---

It's not going to have any impact on prices because 25 million gil removed from a server economy is nothing if you do the math and compare it to how much is generated through normal game play.

For your proposed tax to make a noticeable dent in the overall player economy and get prices to lower, your tax would have to be collected several dozens if not hundreds of times a day on each server. We don't have enough desirable housing for that to happen.

All player to player trading would accomplish is giving RMT more solid control over the housing market. It would be simple for them to meet your gil price then resell at the same gil price +25% (to cover your tax) plus several hundred dollars real money.

Control over housing availability needs to be taken out of player and RMT hands. It is not good for the game. Those who want to make gil have plenty of other options to pursue. The lottery is a step in the right direction but it is not enough.

If the concern is creating a better gil sink, then having an instanced housing system where every character (not just player) could buy the most desired housing location they can afford with their personal wealth would do a far better job, or even multiple locations.