There's been a few posts asking for some or all to be FCFS but I've yet to see a post asking for lotto only to be started but lots of people supporting the lotto option in those posts so figured I'd start one myself.
Lotto only seems to be the best solution for housing so long as SE keeps it together properly, as long as multiple winners are selected when drawing for FC or that an FC can only add their multi tickets to the same house it will keep the numbers spread across to other players in a fair light.
The new changes to FCs where you can't pass the lead to new members will lower the selling of RTM houses, which we all know has been a rather large problem as of late. Possible beat solution would be that you shouldn't be able to transfer leader to anyone ever but be able to have a 2nd who can do just as much but still not transfer rights.
Lastly the personal houses with lotto will provide a much more fair spread for players as they will only be able to bid on a single house at a time.
FCFS only helps those that have high end PCs and excessive amount of Alts, you might think you'll be the one to login first and get the house you want, but you won't and the Endwalker launch with constant disconnects, bugs, errors and long queues prove that you won't. So a lotto will be your best bet if your truly committed to wanting a fair chance at a house.
Keep lottery only for all housing!
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02-22-2022, 07:36 PMBaxcelKeep lottery only for all housing!
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02-22-2022, 07:44 PMMisutoraru
My full support
Let say a server have 10000 enter lottery, 1/10000 chance may seem low. However, with FCFS or placard, if the player could not enter the race within first few minute when server come up, the chance of getting a house become 0 for those can win the race in FCFS, and almost 0 for those who don’t have the time to camp for placard.
FCFS and Placard might have high chance but it is only because very small groups of players able to enter the competition.
With current high demand of housing a fairer competition where every player who desire a house can easily enter is the way to go. I does not solve the housing issue but it is a better system than FCFS/Placard that benefits a wider player base -
02-22-2022, 08:04 PMShibiLet's not lock people up in a gaol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxcel
Having run FCs here, and guild in EQ2 and WoW, there are times that the drama gets too much. One can usually make it work with your officers, but there are times the friction and stress does build and you feel like it's time to move on.
After 4 years I left the EQ2 guild I founded and lead, it was a pretty large family oriented guild with the top tier hall off Freeport. I handed ownership to one of my officers knowing she had a decent head on her shoulders and would do the guild well, and I left for Rift.
What you are proposing here is a complete lock-in. A FC leader would be forever tied to that FC, never able to leave when it became too much, or if they did leave, say by deleting their character, the FC would be rudderless. No true leader at all posible.
In any search to stop RMT, you can't penalise the real players too much. This suggestion to lock in and remove transfer rights, is a real imposition on genuine FCs... which I have zero doubt outnumber RMT shells. -
02-22-2022, 09:06 PMBaxcelThen disband the FC?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibi
I'm not saying just login one day an dump everyone on the side of the street.. if your a good FC lead you'd talk to your people, bring up the problems, let them know your moving on. You'd give them some time to form a new FC for those who wanna stay together, give them access to their items and rooms so they can collect them an move them so they don't vanish into the limited time storage of death that SE has.
Locking the FC lead dosnt stop people from regrouping and reforming but it dose completely stop the RTM house flippers. Good FCs and FC leaders will not be effected by such a change and those that will or are more then likely had problems to being with.
The method they have chosen for now won't fix anything.. the RTM people will either wait out the "new member" timer or they will log those chrs out for the 45days or however long it is till the FC ownership auto changes hands. -
02-22-2022, 09:38 PMHatfrightYeah, let's inconvenient a lot of decent people cuz some players use a loophole. Great idea, that will never backfire, ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxcel
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02-22-2022, 09:52 PMBaxcelBy all means, if you have a method of closing the RTM housing market and keeping the houses fair to everyone I'd love to hear it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatfright
Is it a perfect plan I suggested, no.. ill gladly admit that.. but it dose what I said it should do.. fixes 2 big problems with the housing market. -
02-22-2022, 11:20 PMNepenthaThe only real, feasible way to end RMT in the housing markets is to scrap the neighborhoods all together and go fully instanced housing that all players have access to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxcel
Your idea is simply not a good one, much like the placard idea was ill thought out and when implemented only made things worse. Free companies are not static things, and FC leadership has to be passed down sometimes. The problem right now is that's the exploit RMTers are using to quickly sell off their ill gotten houses. Most of these operations count on fast sales, the faster they sell them off the sooner they can reform a new FC and go bot the next open placard.
A better method of hindering them is make it so FC Master cannot be passed down to new members to the FC. I'm of the opinion that a new member cannot become FC Master until they've been in the FC for 45 days. This will greatly hinder the RMTers/botters because not only can they not pass FC leadership to their low level alts easily, they also can't sell off their homes easily as buyers will have to trust them enough to wait 45 days. (However, as of right now you can delete the FC Master from the login screen, giving them a clear shortcut to circumvent this measure. SE will need to close that loophole.)
I also think that brand new FCs shouldn't be allowed to buy property for a certain number of days. 14-30 day way from the moment of creation. This will further hinder RMTers. (Note I say 'hinder', even with these restrictions RMT will still be a thing until housing is no longer a finite resource.)
I also think sprouts shouldn't be allowed to purchase property in the name of their FC. OR that you can only put in one ticket per account per server for your FC.
Lastly, SE will need to monitor and take action against people who are clearly abusing the system. They don't do this now. We know because hundreds of reports have been filed against rampant and well known third party software users and/or RMTers and nothing has been done to them and they have been allowed to continue abusing the system for years. We know you don't want to, SE, but you have to. -
02-23-2022, 11:35 AMJojoyaIt doesn't stop them but it does make it pointless to do. Few FCs are going to disband and reform when it means starting from zero, especially when they will no longer have a house and it will be extremely difficult to get one because supply can't meet demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxcel
As Shibi said, the game can't be designed around try to block RMT when that effectively blocks legitimate players and FCs as well.
This. As long as there is any sort of restriction on supply, RMT will exist to profit from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepentha
Even if FFXIV went to a LotRO type system where a new ward gets added as all available wards fill up, RMT will continue to exist because the demand for large and medium houses will continue to be greater than the supply.
RMT has no foothold in a fully instanced system where every player can get the exact house of their choice when they want it because RMT won't be able influence supply. -
02-23-2022, 12:51 PMBaxcelI completely agree about instance houses but SE dosnt want to go down that path it seems.. so we have to work around what we got currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I've been around for some older mmos and I know that once measures are in place that make RTM less productive then the cost of doing business in the game they drop out mostly if not completely. Having a system that would stop them from doing business would eventually make them move away and at that point the restrictions could be opened up more.
Again it's not an elegant solution or even a perfect one but it dose stop the problem cold turkey. If SE stood by its policy of houses will never decay or be destroyed over time it wouldn't matter if the FC leader couldn't pass leader around. Locking a house or an FC is about the only way to stop them in the current system, we can talk about what would make the better system and that's great but as for now we need to talk with the systems we currently have. -
02-23-2022, 03:29 PMJojoyaSE may not want to go down that path but the more players point out that the current system isn't serving player needs, the more likely they are to reconsider it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxcel
After all, we already have the start of an instanced system with apartments. Island Sanctuary is an instanced system that could have been made to support housing, and possibly could still be adapted to that in the future.
The last thing we should do is give up and dream up more bandaids for a bad system because we think SE won't give us better. We know they're capable of giving us better.
If their concern is a neighborhood feeling then ward system itself could have been turned into an instanced system similar to apartments. Just as we enter our instanced apartments at the building entrance, we could entering our instanced plots at the plot placard. The more likely we are to run into other players in the ward, the more likely we are to want to spend time in it and make it truly feel like a neighborhood. Because we're unlikely to see other players in the wards, we mostly stay in our houses and the neighborhoods end up dead. -
02-23-2022, 04:55 PMcaspergreyLet's be honest, if the odds are 1/10000, you're not winning that plot... it's the same false hope that RNG heavy games give players to think that they "might" have a chance of winning. If you're talking about a large plot that only comes available every 3 months or so... you're not getting that plot if the odds are 1/10000.... ever... might as well play the lotto... and if you do win, there are 9999 people that lose... what kind of game is cool with 1 winner and 9999 losers purely based on RNG and zero merit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Misutoraru
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02-23-2022, 06:15 PMShibiHonestly, it's seems you've never run a FC or guild. If you had you would realise that doing such an act would cause irreparable drama and the death of the social group. People won't want to rebuild it all. people won't want to see their base dissapear and then have to earn it all again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxcel
SE want to foster and grow FC's, their choices in the upcoming lotto are meant to reward large FCs.
What you are suggesting could see a group of 250 people lose their shared large base, lose their workshop that gives their sprout members all their gear for free, lose their FC points, lose their rights to company actions like XP boost and so on --- with this sort of loss, people will leave the game in disgust. Disgust that the game tears their social group completely asunder.
It's a very mean punishment you've come up with, to lock in a FC so they can never escape, and to break up groups of friends, just so you can get a house.
Where is the bus factor in this?Quote:
if your a good FC lead you'd talk to your people, bring up the problems, let them know your moving on. You'd give them some time to form a new FC for those who wanna stay together, give them access to their items and rooms so they can collect them an move them so they don't vanish into the limited time storage of death
Where is the reality of real life in this, in terms of finances, in terms of disasters, in terms of mental health, in terms of a million things?
As I said, it looks like you've never faced the reality of leadership, and just want to destroy people in valid FCs. -
02-24-2022, 05:45 AMLunaFancy100% this. The ONLY 'fair' thing about a lottery is that everyone has the equal chance to be burned by RNGSUS. It's horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by caspergrey
Before the introduction of the timer (and the compounding issue or the relo circumvention of said timer) the housing game was as fair as it could ever be. It's a limited resource so if you wanted a house you watched the wards like a hawk at the top of the hour (when the demoliton timer hit) and you bolted for it when you saw one.
OR you waited til fresh wards dropped and you hit the ground running and your efforts paid off- or you went back to checking for auto demo houses.
If the devs really want to throw a spanner in the works of the RMT trade, then instead of punishing genuine buyers at the purchase placard, they should take the appeal from the private sale market altogether by offering a full refund of purchase price (inclusive of the building permit upon relinquishment or demolition.
At the moment if a player loses their house they are comped 1/3 of the purchase price - if they give it up willingly they receive NOTHING.
And you wonder why people house log every six weeks (thus tying up housing that others would actually be using daily) and the private sales market is thriving. The bloated prices and RMT are only possible because of scarcity and the scarcity is compounded because people aren't willing to lose millions of gil by relinquishing a plot.
Give people all their gil back and watch how frequently the wards pop vacant plots. Stop punishing people at the placard and find ways to make the black and grey markets less profitable at the relinquishment end. -
02-24-2022, 11:49 AMTwistedTea
Fully support a lottery only system for housing not because it's a good solution. But among the terrible solutions SE has implemented over the years, it's the 'fairest'.
The best solution(s) for me would be:
1.) If SE could let us upgrade apartments for gil to penthouses
2.) Island Sanctuary being a viable alternative to ward housing
Ward housing being limited is horribly outdated design compared to how other MMOs handle housing. Ultimately, it's a supply problem of not having enough ward houses for every player who wants one.
Regarding why lottery seems 'fairer':
1. FCFS currently incentivizes players to resort to botting/third-party tools.
For a player who's not using any third party tools, clicking on the placard for hours even during prime time, is mentally, emotionally and physically taxing. The current system does not respect a player's time.
Lottery lets players throw in their bid and carry on with the rest of the game.
2. FCFS during new ward releases leave the majority of players subject to the whims of login/lobby errors and queues.
Having full lottery would also reduce the login congestion caused by new FCFS wards.
Can the lottery system be gamed?
Sure:
Based on the info from the latest Live Letter, any FC member can enter a lottery bid for their FC. This means that even alts can do so. SE please restrict FC lottery bids by service account.
Furthermore, SE in an attempt to reduce FC house re-selling wants to implement a time restriction, so that FC Master cannot be easily transferred to new FC members.
However this restriction can be easily circumvented by the fact that if the character which is the FC Master gets deleted, the next appropriate character in the FC gets automatically promoted to FC Master.