Caster balance - Progression jobs vs speed

Why is it acceptable that casters are divided into “progression” and “post-progression” jobs?


Caster is the only role that deals with this. RPRs aren’t switching to SAM once they’ve cleared a fight. Many groups put pressure on their caster to play summoner and red mage until a fight has been mastered or at least cleared. I know there are groups that clear fights with a black mage, but many groups would prefer to have that rez for progression purposes and it puts additional pressure on players who do not enjoy those jobs.

Ranged physical pays a “ranged tax”, and while that is an entire other topic of conversation the idea behind those jobs is that their damage is in relation to their personal damage plus the damage they provide to the party. They’re essentially balanced around one another.

I think the balance team should look at this and consider removing raise from summoner and possibly red mage. It would be weird and uncomfortable at first, but the player base would eventually adjust.

This could be considered a hot take to some people lol.

uh it's not a caster wide problem
it is quite literally a black mage only problem
black mage is the only job in the entire game that is not suitable for progression

and honestly I don't want it to be changed, black mage is enjoyable because you are forced to play much better than everyone else to get the same material reward, but much, much higher spiritual reward.

they aren't, really it's just an echo chamber type of thing.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

uh it's not a caster wide problem
it is quite literally a black mage only problem
black mage is the only job in the entire game that is not suitable for progression

and honestly I don't want it to be changed, black mage is enjoyable because you are forced to play much better than everyone else to get the same material reward, but much, much higher spiritual reward.

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Black mage is 1/3 of the caster jobs. You're referring to job complexity. They don't have to touch the complexity of the job if they remove raise from rdm and smn. I would prefer SMN to be the mid damage mid utility caster, and red mage to be the high utility, lower damage job.

Raise is unlike any other type of utility in the game. It does nothing unless someone dies. Damage boost is always useful, healing and mitigation, are also useful, but not so strong that you have to significantly balance jobs around it.

People go with the other two because in prog, you don't have the fight memorized / planned out / known, so having a ress is more like a safety net. It's not required for prog and BLM can definitely do prog. You just won't actually know all the mechanics until you go through all of them, so you have no idea how much extra movement you can bank on. That pretty much applies to every job though, but BLM just has it worse since that's their gimmick and core gameplay focus. Any job can clear any content, it's just when you have fights memorized and done, DPS becomes the only metric that matters more since there will be less mistakes (and less heals/raises needed as a result of good gameplay). You don't need raise to do prog, it's just much easier and quicker to have raises in prog. If you're more comfortable playing BLM than RDM though, then by all means, play BLM.

Nonsense, I’ve only ever progged on blm, and I’ve never even seen anyone bring it up in game

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Originally Posted by Picker

Nonsense, I’ve only ever progged on blm, and I’ve never even seen anyone bring it up in game

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Let me clarify. No other role has one job in the top 3 DPS, when the other two DPS are at the bottom. Black mage is the better job if you're clearing a fight. The other two are paying a heavy tax because of their ability to Rez.

The other jobs are all competitive within their roles. The melee jobs are all within a small margin, and most of that margin is due to their varying DPS utility.

Physical ranged DPS, all pay the "ranged tax" and are all balanced around their damage utility. Dancer is the weakest, however this margin can be compensated for with their boost in damage to their party members. Machinists should have the personal damage out of the three.

I would love to see rez be removed and SMN and RDM DPS be increased closer to black mage. SMN should be mid utility, mid damage, and RDM can be high utility, lower damage.

Res are virtually useless in a prog.
Sure they will help you discover mechanics, but it won't help against enrage.

If you have a KO, most of the time you better wipe due to not being able to solve the next mechanic or not being able to beat the DPS check.

Or your group is overgeared and DPS check don't matter, which is where res can become handy.
BUt since your group is overgeared, the res is just more breathing room to the healers.

The real problem, as always, is the endgame itself and all its restrictions, which extend like tentacles to everything and put everything under the rule of this imposed game content.

Putting a competitive and comparative game into a role-playing game is the downfall of the latter all the way.

There used to be better times in the genre... unfortunately, we don't develop in the MMORPG genre at all anymore, we prefer to build end-game games without content, but with the same old spiral consisting of spreadsheets.

Who came up with the idea to abuse MMORPGs/aRPGs like this?

How wonderful could today's real MMORPGs be if they had been developed further for 15 years instead of turning it into this murderous suicide of a genre?

At least I had the privilege to experience the good old days myself and how wonderfully it worked. What could have been made out of it and what was the genre used for, making virtual athletes out of the com, who constantly beat each other up and all the RPG content is eaten up by the monster Endgame (a completely different genre)...abominable in essence.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Res are virtually useless in a prog.
Sure they will help you discover mechanics, but it won't help against enrage.

If you have a KO, most of the time you better wipe due to not being able to solve the next mechanic or not being able to beat the DPS check.

Or your group is overgeared and DPS check don't matter, which is where res can become handy.
BUt since your group is overgeared, the res is just more breathing room to the healers.

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I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

They don't have to touch the complexity of the job if they remove raise from rdm and smn. I would prefer SMN to be the mid damage mid utility caster, and red mage to be the high utility, lower damage job.

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The problem is raise is the only utility actually worth sacrificing damage for. Do you think people actually care about magick barrier or the phoenix heal in a vacuum? They're nice, but only because they're a bonus - a package deal with the rest of the job - raise is what you actually bring those jobs for.

There are only two outcomes I foresee if raise is removed from the casters:

• Summoner and Red Mage just become shitty low damage jobs that good players will ignore. Without raise, no discerning player would volunteer to do 'mid damage' or 'lower damage' for such laughable utility.

• The casters are balanced much more tightly similar to how the melees are, black mage players complain they have to work much harder for similar damage.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

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And have you done TEA where rez is completely useless for most prog-intensive phases since a single death inevitably leads to a party wipe shortly after?

Saying that rez is useful in lvl 70 content that lost all of it's former difficulty isn't a great argument.

Imo the "need" for a Rez Caster is purely a community mindset. Yes it is obviously nice to have a safety blanket in case your healers have had to use both Swiftcasts already, but you are shooting your BLM in the foot if you force him to SMN / RDM first only for him having to relearn a fight as BLM again, or they won't because you may not like taking longer for reclears.

Do yourself a favour - if you have a BLM in your group but want Caster Rez, drop a melee instead and run double caster.

That said, remember when Yoshida said there was a LONG debate about SMN keeping rez? Maybe speculation, but I think that debate was in relation to SMN damage. Since it kept Resurrection... that's likely why SMN got to be lower end of the dps chart. Also probably because they'd otherwise be Phys Ranged in mobility without paying the utility and mobility tax.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Why is it acceptable that casters are divided into “progression” and “post-progression” jobs?


Caster is the only role that deals with this. RPRs aren’t switching to SAM once they’ve cleared a fight. Many groups put pressure on their caster to play summoner and red mage until a fight has been mastered or at least cleared. I know there are groups that clear fights with a black mage, but many groups would prefer to have that rez for progression purposes and it puts additional pressure on players who do not enjoy those jobs.

Ranged physical pays a “ranged tax”, and while that is an entire other topic of conversation the idea behind those jobs is that their damage is in relation to their personal damage plus the damage they provide to the party. They’re essentially balanced around one another.

I think the balance team should look at this and consider removing raise from summoner and possibly red mage. It would be weird and uncomfortable at first, but the player base would eventually adjust.

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Because Raise is unbalanced and needs to be fixed to where all caster have it or non have it.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

And have you done TEA where rez is completely useless for most prog-intensive phases since a single death inevitably leads to a party wipe shortly after?

Saying that rez is useful in lvl 70 content that lost all of it's former difficulty isn't a great argument.

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no haven't done TEA yet, but I'm pretty sure not every single mechanic in it is an instawipe if 1 single person messes up

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

no haven't done TEA yet, but I'm pretty sure not every single mechanic in it is an instawipe if 1 single person messes up

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What if I told you that it pretty much is? Mechanics in TEA happen faster than a person can get through rez black screen + animation lock and are heavily reliant on all 8 players doing the correct thing or the whole mechanic collapses. Living Liquid is full of "each player has to bait an AoE" mechanics and having only 7 people alive means there is a stray AoE murdering half the group every time. Most deaths in Limit Cut leads to a stray bait that kills half the group. A single death in BJ/CC means you've lost one of Verdict debuffs and can't resolve Gavel. Wormhole in P3 immediately turns into a complete mess of random deaths since it's based on 8 very specific baits, and is immediately followed by a very hard hitting stack. And in P4 you get to experince very fun concept of beacon player dying and immediately taking three more players with them.

Yes, you can chain rez your way through UWU. But there is a reason why UWU is considered an EX trial+ at this point.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

What if I told you that it pretty much is? Mechanics in TEA happen faster than a person can get through rez black screen + animation lock and are heavily reliant on all 8 players doing the correct thing or the whole mechanic collapses. Living Liquid is full of "each player has to bait an AoE" mechanics and having only 7 people alive means there is a stray AoE murdering half the group every time. Most deaths in Limit Cut leads to a stray bait that kills half the group. A single death in BJ/CC means you've lost one of Verdict debuffs and can't resolve Gavel. Wormhole in P3 immediately turns into a complete mess of random deaths since it's based on 8 very specific baits, and is immediately followed by a very hard hitting stack. And in P4 you get to experince very fun concept of beacon player dying and immediately taking three more players with them.

Yes, you can chain rez your way through UWU. But there is a reason why UWU is considered an EX trial+ at this point.

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yes every major mechanic is a wipe if one person dies, even in uwu, that doesn't make rdm/smn raises useless for progression, because it's not as black and white as you seem to imply.
also really sus for you to call uwu ex-trial+ when you started playing the game on dec 2021, did you hear it from someone else or have you actually done uwu?

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

also really sus for you to call uwu ex-trial+ when you started playing the game on dec 2021, did you hear it from someone else or have you actually done uwu?

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Join date records first time posting on the forums, not when someone began playing FF14.

If you look up Gaethan here on the Lodestone, you'll see from my achievements that I began playing in 3.0, despite the forum "join date" being around the time of 5.0 launch. Because I didn't post on the forums until then.

Azuri has Perfect Legend, most (all?) of the Savage raid mounts, and a bunch of jobs at 90, at least. I'd find it pretty difficult to believe they literally began playing the game last December, and if they did they've clearly been very busy doing high end content.

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In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Verraise, meanwhile, would appear to have cost RDM next to nothing, historically; rather, it simply entered both Stormblood and Shadowbringers undertuned before leaving those respective expansions neck-and-neck with BLM and SMN for rDPS barely over a percent behind SMN despite being considered the easier, more reliable, and more utility-packed job. Today, it leads over SMN and all physical Physical Ranged, for instance despite Verraise.

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Raise is not holding RDM back from BLM numbers. Being designed as a more support-ish, superficially mobile (BLM is actually shockingly mobile now), and superficially simpler job is. This will not change if rez is deleted and some other utility is added to replace it. Especially if that utility is actually unique (e.g., Refresh), and not just another mitigation cooldown.

SMN has been a very strong DPS several times in the past while still retaining Raise. I think it's current state is clearly a result of the rework and its ranged-physical DPS levels of mobility, not Raise.

The developers have aimed to put BLM on top of the DPS boards for some time now, and I don't see that changing. What BLM brings to prog is very high DPS when played competently (not perfectly, competently) that isn't dependent on how well other people are playing (no rDPS buff). That's a trade-off with the safety net of Raise. Trade-offs are not bad design.

Can we please stop demanding further homogenization of roles? Do you want the caster-DPS to be the new healers? Because that's how we got to the current state of the healers.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Join date records first time posting on the forums, not when someone began playing FF14.

If you look up Gaethan here on the Lodestone, you'll see from my achievements that I began playing in 3.0, despite the forum "join date" being around the time of 5.0 launch. Because I didn't post on the forums until then.

Azuri has Perfect Legend, most (all?) of the Savage raid mounts, and a bunch of jobs at 90, at least. I'd find it pretty difficult to believe they literally began playing the game last December, and if they did they've clearly been very busy doing high end content.

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In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?



Raise is not holding RDM back from BLM numbers. Being designed as a more support-ish, superficially mobile (BLM is actually shockingly mobile now), and superficially simpler job is. This will not change if rez is deleted and some other utility is added to replace it. Especially if that utility is actually unique (e.g., Refresh), and not just another mitigation cooldown.

SMN has been a very strong DPS several times in the past while still retaining Raise. I think it's current state is clearly a result of the rework and its ranged-physical DPS levels of mobility, not Raise.

The developers have aimed to put BLM on top of the DPS boards for some time now, and I don't see that changing. What BLM brings to prog is very high DPS when played competently (not perfectly, competently) that isn't dependent on how well other people are playing (no rDPS buff). That's a trade-off with the safety net of Raise. Trade-offs are not bad design.

Can we please stop demanding further homogenization of roles? Do you want the caster-DPS to be the new healers? Because that's how we got to the current state of the healers.

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This. So much.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?

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This.

Even without raises, RDM and SMN are jobs with raid buffs, so they get balanced accordingly. And anyone can see SMN and RDM are not suffering for representation in any content in this game, and are getting clears.

So this really comes down to "I just want to speedrun in parties with SMN/RDM" and that's not a balance conversation.

I still think the caster rezz needs to be looked at since it is a problem when comes to balancing casters(even if few think otherwise). I've seen people complain about the rezz mage memes rdm had in the past and I see blm asking for rez or utility of any kind so that has more purpose and is used more in prog. I know some of yall think it's not a big deal but it always has been a problem. I saw someone bring up how smn was a powerful dps with rez in the past. That was mostly because the devs tended to over buff smn in the .1 patches and always had to nerf it afterward because it usually did close to or more dps than blm. When that was happening smn was being picked more because you got both a high dps job and a rez for prog. It did leave both blms and rdm at the door at parties. At the impression, I got from people comments about the past. I usually never paid attention to pick rates since I am in a mid core/casual static who let me play whatever job I want. But I believe those peaple comments and I do believe the rez is an issue in the casters' balancing.

Personally, I like to see one of two things happen to caster rez:
One: They just delete altogether and let healers be the ones to deal with picking the dead off the floor. Then buff both rdm and smn accordingly based on the utility they bring and bring all three caster closer together like the melee and phy range roles.
Two: They make the rez a role action that has a long CD and is an instant cast oGCD. That why blm at least has some place in prog also other than just having "high dam".

Also, let's not forget we were close to having just one caster rez this expac. SMN's rez was on the chopping block and the devs seemed pretty ready to pull that trigger. I personally believe smn rez isn't going to be around after EW since with its rework swiftcast is now being used more in its rotation than ever.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?

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But the thread isn't about RDM or SMN doing less damage than BLM, it's BLMs being asked to change to RDM or SMN because of raise.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

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Did the 3, progged twice every ultimates with different groups.
On average, it takes a month with a 3-4 raid night, can be faster yes.

UCOB, you can cheese, raise through mechanics for sure, we all know the legendaries 20 KOs run, but that's because it's poorly tuned nowadays, you can start the add phase with damage down on everyone and still pass it with no troubles.
On other mechanics, a KO is most often a wipe since you won't get that person for mechanics.
TEA P2, you can't have a single KO for example.

I've been raiding since end of HW and I stand by my point:
Resses are virtually useless, they are additional breathing room like Dark Mind. Except one is actually a good breathing room, the other is almost placebo.

I'd say combat res is a lot stronger in theory than in practice. It's almost like they design mechanics around undermining it as much as possible. Even mechanics that don't necessarily involve the whole party but have an RNG element will occasionally just kill everyone if one person is dead because of debuff stacking.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

This.

Even without raises, RDM and SMN are jobs with raid buffs, so they get balanced accordingly. And anyone can see SMN and RDM are not suffering for representation in any content in this game, and are getting clears.

So this really comes down to "I just want to speedrun in parties with SMN/RDM" and that's not a balance conversation.

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I think you’re missing the point. My point is that all other job roles are competitive within their role. They don’t have sub roles the way caster does.

Red mage and summoner do not have raid buffs that make up the difference in DPS to black mage. That’s what this thread is about.

The other roles are balanced in this way. Machinist is high DPS low utility. Dancer is low DPS high DPS utility. Their personal damage is low because they raise the damage of their party members.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I think you’re missing the point. My point is that all other job roles are competitive within their role. They don’t have sub roles the way caster does.

Red mage and summoner do not have raid buffs that make up the difference in DPS to black mage. That’s what this thread is about.

The other roles are balanced in this way. Machinist is high DPS low utility. Dancer is low DPS high DPS utility. Their personal damage is low because they raise the damage of their party members.

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I think the point you're missing is that Caster DPS as a whole are also the most different jobs from one another within their role. That's why they're balanced differently to begin with. Ranged and Melee DPS cluster together on their respective halves because they have a similar proportion of their respective GCDs. Melee are mostly melee instant-casts. Ranged are mostly Ranged instant-casts. Casters vary significantly in their proportion of instant cast and hardcast GCDs, and one of them even has melee GCDs to consider on top of that. Hence, Ranged are weaker as whole. Melee are on top, and the caster DPS vary a bit. This also tracks onto their respective utility budgets too. Raise > Healing > Mitigation > Nothing. Taken together, it makes sense they're different. Because they have reason to be different.

My only reason for not wanting to squish the proportions -too much- is I want ranged DPS to get equivalent value. That requires their role-specific utility, including mobility, to matter more. Encounter Design needs to address the gap just as much if not more than the numbers alone. This used to be partially alleviated by Ballad (Till Stormblood made Summoner an effective half-Bard). It isn't anymore, so in its place we need some actual mechanics Ranged DPS can bait and control on top of the typical nonsense. Fights getting faster are in some sense an attempt to address this, though I don't like them as a solution either. I'd rather more interesting demands from an encounter than less and less room to react to the dance before wiping the raid, personally.

I don't think Raise is an issue. Can it be updated? Absolutely.

SMN requires swiftcast in their DPS rotation. RDM also but RDM can quickcast every GCD. First and foremost, having to raise is a damage lost for the SMN/RDM. SMN because you lose noticeable DPS to swiftcast it or having to long cast it. RDM loses DPS because it unbalances their black and white mana. Raise is not free for them.

Should BLM deal more DPS? Yeah, they are pure firepower. I don't think it should to a point of 7% to 8% ahead of SMN and RDM.

The other problem is SMN is literally weaker in every aspect of RDM right now.

Weaker raid buff (Embolden>Searing Light)
Superior raise option (can literally raise 4 people in about 10 seconds)
Better fight synergy where they can hold on things as long they don't drift any oGCDs.
Magick Barrier comes from demand versus time gated Everlasting Flight + Rekindle (This WILL matter in fresh Ultimates)

The only thing you can give SMN over RDM is "mobility". All casters got mobility improvements this expansion. SE quite made it too braindead and easy for SMN. The issue is pretty simple. If SMN doesn't have reliable raise, then you may as well just bring a caster that provides better damage.

Imho, Raise should stay but it should be revamped. Give it as an instant cast with a long CD so the whole argument that RDM has better prog support is voided.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I don't think Raise is an issue. Can it be updated? Absolutely.

SMN requires swiftcast in their DPS rotation. RDM also but RDM can quickcast every GCD. First and foremost, having to raise is a damage lost for the SMN/RDM. SMN because you lose noticeable DPS to swiftcast it or having to long cast it. RDM loses DPS because it unbalances their black and white mana. Raise is not free for them.

Should BLM deal more DPS? Yeah, they are pure firepower. I don't think it should to a point of 7% to 8% ahead of SMN and RDM.

The other problem is SMN is literally weaker in every aspect of RDM right now.

Weaker raid buff (Embolden>Searing Light)
Superior raise option (can literally raise 4 people in about 10 seconds)
Better fight synergy where they can hold on things as long they don't drift any oGCDs.
Magick Barrier comes from demand versus time gated Everlasting Flight + Rekindle (This WILL matter in fresh Ultimates)

The only thing you can give SMN over RDM is "mobility". All casters got mobility improvements this expansion. SE quite made it too braindead and easy for SMN. The issue is pretty simple. If SMN doesn't have reliable raise, then you may as well just bring a caster that provides better damage.

Imho, Raise should stay but it should be revamped. Give it as an instant cast with a long CD so the whole argument that RDM has better prog support is voided.

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I agree with most of what you’ve said. I think the raise tax needs to be looked at, if we are to keep it. It wouldn’t surprise me if they decide to remove it from SMN. Yoshi said it was on the chopping block coming into 6.0.

SMN is the most taxed job in the game. Raise tax, mobility tax, utility tax. Let’s remove one of them. SMN could be 3-4% below BLM and make up that damage with searing light.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I agree with most of what you’ve said. I think the raise tax needs to be looked at, if we are to keep it. It wouldn’t surprise me if they decide to remove it from SMN. Yoshi said it was on the chopping block coming into 6.0.

SMN is the most taxed job in the game. Raise tax, mobility tax, utility tax. Let’s remove one of them. SMN could be 3-4% below BLM and make up that damage with searing light.

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Honestly it's an easy fix. Just make raise a role action ability with 120s cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly it's an easy fix. Just make raise a role action ability with 120s cooldown.

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Yes, that'd be the easiest fix but it isn't at the same time because you'd give it to BLM so you'd have to balance damage upward for casters or put BLM downward. I highly doubt they want to lower BLM damage and I doubt they want casters to do as much DPS as melees. What baffles me is that MCH is basically BLM and they're doing 1k DPS less.

Hopefully they become more open about balancing. While they're doing that, I'll just enjoy RDM. Because RDM is fun in raids. Even if I'm doing weaker DPS than BLM. I don't get the SMN caveats that unless I have 2k sps which I don't, Bahamut desyncs in P2S. I don't deal with Carbuncle caveats or any support ability that requires a specific avatar on the field. They could completely remove Phoenix and give Phoenix-like support ability and adjust Bahamut and just have us summon Bahamut every minute and SMN's gameplay would be better. That's my 2 cents anyways since I know casuals that dont raid would be pissed to lose a Summon phase.

SMN is the result when you cater just to casuals who don't raid and they completely ignores the raiders.

Welp, I would prog on BLM if I didn't invest in crit/det gear over SPS.

It just saddens me a little I guess. I’ve mained SMN since 2.0. As someone who is party find raiding, I might consider progging on black mage in the next tier. I feel like with party finder, it’s almost better to play the selfish DPS, so you don’t have to rely on your party members as much.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

But the thread isn't about RDM or SMN doing less damage than BLM, it's BLMs being asked to change to RDM or SMN because of raise.

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This would continue to happen without raise, because of BLM's unique 'Turret' playstyle. So long as that exists, BLM will always feel like an outlier compared to stuttersteplord RDM and 'I'm only technically a caster three times per minute' SMN.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

This would continue to happen without raise, because of BLM's unique 'Turret' playstyle. So long as that exists, BLM will always feel like an outlier compared to stuttersteplord RDM and 'I'm only technically a caster three times per minute' SMN.

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I don't think you can call the current BLM a "turret" anymore with the amont of movement tools they have now. Do they still have to cast more than rdm and smn? Yes, but let's not fool ourselves here. BLM doesn't really have to stand still for long periods of time anymore. I just don't think you can call them turret mages anymore. I still think removing or nerfing/rework the caster rez would help balance the role some since right now there is a balancing problem in the caster role compared to all the other roles. As the OP said you don't see any of the melees switching to sam after prog is over but you do see smns and rdms switching to blms after they cleared a fight. Shoot you see smn switching to rdm during prog in this expac since rdm is slight stronger in the utility department and begins the same dps(I know I did since smn isnt in a good spot right now despise what others have said.)

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

I don't think you can call the current BLM a "turret" anymore with the amont of movement tools they have now. Do they still have to cast more than rdm and smn? Yes, but let's not fool ourselves here. BLM doesn't really have to stand still for long periods of time anymore. I just don't think you can call them turret mages anymore. I still think removing or nerfing/rework the caster rez would help balance the role some since right now there is a balancing problem in the caster role compared to all the other roles. As the OP said you don't see any of the melees switching to sam after prog is over but you do see smns and rdms switching to blms after they cleared a fight. Shoot you see smn switching to rdm during prog in this expac since rdm is slight stronger in the utility department and begins the same dps(I know I did since smn isnt in a good spot right now despise what others have said.)

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Are speedrun comps still altering strats to fit entirely around their BLM so the BLM can keep casting? Yes?

Then yeah, it's still a Turret Job making weird Turret Job things happen.

And the reason you don't see melee switching over is mostly because LOLRPR things.

rez has already been nerfed (atleast on Smn)..,.Smn''s MP consumption is so high, by the time you hit the last quarter of a savage fight, there is barely enough MP to rez, if at all (or Smn needs to build Lucid Dreaming into the their rota)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

rez has already been nerfed (atleast on Smn)..,.Smn''s MP consumption is so high, by the time you hit the last quarter of a savage fight, there is barely enough MP to rez, if at all (or Smn needs to build Lucid Dreaming into the their rota)

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So... hit lucid dreaming then?