Action changes to:

A decent few classes have actions that automatically change into another after use, or a specific situation is fulfilled; and i love them.
But as I play other jobs, it makes me wonder why other actions aren't done like this as well... several buttons exist that cannot be used unless in a specific situation, such as after the use of another action or during a certain buff.
Some of these buttons have actually become replacement keys themself (Such as Phantom Kamaitachi for NIN during Bunshin) and it's lovely, another free space on my bars!

So... can we do it for some more please? Some of them are probably less needed than others, but there are abilities that I literally can't use both at the same time, or doing so would be ludicrous to consider; but here's to name some of my biggest gripes:

• Mirage Dive - Only usable after [High] Jump - 15s buff window for a 30s CD ability, I literally can't have both up together.
• Redraw - Only usable after Draw - I'm never going to just Draw another card while I still have one, I'm either going to Play it or Redraw it then play it.
• Crown Play - Only usable after Minor Arcana - Same as above, I'm never going to just sit on a Crown Card for 60s to be able to Minor Arcana again, I'll use the card in that time.

Other jobs were originally in this gripe list as well, that have since been sorted. GNB's Cartridge Combo, NIN's Phantom, SCH's Consolation. So it can be done! I just hope it gets done more.

Maybe it's just me, but for Jobs that already have button bloat, more replacement buttons are appreciated :)

GNB used to be the absolute worst with button bloat, because it had a combo that spanned *8 spells.*

Keen Edge -> Brutal Shell -> Solid Barrel -> No Mercy -> Gnashing Fang -> Jugular Rip -> Savage Claw -> Abdomen Tear -> Wicked Talon -> Eye Gouge

The spells in bold above were under 'Continuation,' meaning that there was a dedicated button that would turn into those spells when it was their turn in the combo.

This did, however, mean that the combo still took up 8 slots, which is almost an entire bar.

Now though, it's more like this:

Keen Edge -> Brutal Shell -> Solid Barrel -> No Mercy -> Gnashing Fang -> Jugular Rip -> Savage Claw -> Abdomen Tear -> Wicked Talon -> Eye Gouge -> Double Down

Now the buttons in bold fold under Gnashing Fang, reducing the combo to 7 spells even though we got a new spell on the end of the combo (and technically, a new combo...)
I feel like I shouldn't be having this much technical problem with something like gunbreaker.

Nevertheless, I'm happy that they did it, though I wish they just gave us the freedom to do so ourselves.

We discussed it in another thread 2 days back, or so.

It boiled down to "It would be nice to fold the spells and reclaim my hotbar" vs "it removes all the skill in the game".

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Originally Posted by Shibi

We discussed it in another thread 2 days back, or so.

It boiled down to "It would be nice to fold the spells and reclaim my hotbar" vs "it removes all the skill in the game".

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There is a big difference between consolidating combos and consolidating actions with mutually exclusive actions. Philosophical debates can be had about consolidating combos and it's fine for people to disagree on that part. But there is no good reason for two buttons with a related purpose to take up two slots if they can never possibly be used under the same conditions.

GNB's Continuation combo, for example, was a fair candidate for consolidation because the three steps can never be used out of order and so there was no penalty to pressing them out of order, so why even make them take up three slots. C.f. GNB's normal combo, which, even though nobody would intend to perform it out of order, it can be done and it would be a DPS loss.

The Draw/Redraw or Draw/Play and MinorArcana/CrownPlay pairs don't fall into the category of mutually exclusive action pairs because they're not strictly impossible to activate at the wrong time but in spirit they should be adaptive buttons.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

There is a big difference between consolidating combos and consolidating actions with mutually exclusive actions. Philosophical debates can be had about consolidating combos and it's fine for people to disagree on that part. But there is no good reason for two buttons with a related purpose to take up two slots if they can never possibly be used under the same conditions.

GNB's Continuation combo, for example, was a fair candidate for consolidation because the three steps can never be used out of order and so there was no penalty to pressing them out of order, so why even make them take up three slots. C.f. GNB's normal combo, which, even though nobody would intend to perform it out of order, it can be done and it would be a DPS loss.

The Draw/Redraw or Draw/Play and MinorArcana/CrownPlay pairs don't fall into the category of mutually exclusive action pairs because they're not strictly impossible to activate at the wrong time but in spirit they should be adaptive buttons.

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There is no good reason for RDM's Enchanted combo to occupy 3 slots. It's 1-2-3 without variation.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

There is no good reason for RDM's Enchanted combo to occupy 3 slots. It's 1-2-3 without variation.

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That's a different discussion. It's a failure point. You can activate the buttons out of order and you can still get mana stacks from doing so. You can even (wrongly) mix single target weaponskills with Moulinet and still complete a "combo" that you can follow with a Verfinisher combo. But we're not talking about that here. We're talking about mutually exclusive actions. You can never Between the Lines unless Leylines is active; and you can never activate Leylines at any time that you would be able to Between the Lines; so they should not be two different buttons. [High] Jump's cooldown is longer than the window in which Mirage Dive is usable, and Mirage Dive cannot be used unless you have used [High] Jump; they should be a single button.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

There is a big difference between consolidating combos and consolidating actions with mutually exclusive actions. Philosophical debates can be had about consolidating combos and it's fine for people to disagree on that part. But there is no good reason for two buttons with a related purpose to take up two slots if they can never possibly be used under the same conditions.

GNB's Continuation combo, for example, was a fair candidate for consolidation because the three steps can never be used out of order and so there was no penalty to pressing them out of order, so why even make them take up three slots. C.f. GNB's normal combo, which, even though nobody would intend to perform it out of order, it can be done and it would be a DPS loss.

The Draw/Redraw or Draw/Play and MinorArcana/CrownPlay pairs don't fall into the category of mutually exclusive action pairs because they're not strictly impossible to activate at the wrong time but in spirit they should be adaptive buttons.

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Absolutely no argument from me. I fall into the "collapse more of the bloat" side. But then I am trying to train someone disabled to be a GNB and it's not easy.

Yes, there was another thread about 3 weeks ago in regards to how to do it for people with disabilities, but I am not taking that path. I will keep trying to hammer home, press 1, now 2, now 3, now 1, now 2, now 3, now 4, now 5, now 6, now 7, and so on.

I have macros for situations like this.

I know people here aren't a big fan of them but they make my life easier.

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Originally Posted by Experiment_X4d2

• Mirage Dive - Only usable after [High] Jump - 15s buff window for a 30s CD ability, I literally can't have both up together.

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While I can't comment on the other two, this one I'd personally hate. The way I have organised my hotbar has me strictly separate my abilities that involve movement from my abilities that don't, to ensure I don't fatfinger any of them by accident. As such, having High Jump turn into Mirage Dive would be extremely annoying.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Absolutely no argument from me. I fall into the "collapse more of the bloat" side. But then I am trying to train someone disabled to be a GNB and it's not easy.

Yes, there was another thread about 3 weeks ago in regards to how to do it for people with disabilities, but I am not taking that path. I will keep trying to hammer home, press 1, now 2, now 3, now 1, now 2, now 3, now 4, now 5, now 6, now 7, and so on.

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Problem is people think button bloat = higher skill ceiling.

It's a case by case situation. You can't just reduce ALL combos down to a single button, but for some jobs it would be a QoL improvement.

Monk for example needs all of its weaponskills on seperate buttons for Perfect Balance, however Reapers 1-2-3 combo skills are functionally identical.

Not on about combos, dw :) Not asking for full PvP mode, just some button trim on abilities that are mutually exclusive to eachother, or otherwise depend on eachother.
I can't Mirage Dive except after a [High] Jump, and I can't [High] Jump again until after Mirage Dive has faded/been used. So... why not make Jump just turn into Mirage Dive after use?
That's what I mean :) Not asking for it from combos, as that would interupt a few ways of flow I feel.

Between the Lines! Knew I'd forgotten one! Yeah, exactly my point :D B can't be used except after/during A, so just have A turn into B.

The issue with some skills, like Draw/Undraw or Leylines/BtL, is that both being oGCDs it's possible to accidentally press the same button again immediately (especially if you hammer buttons).

So you're hammering away at Draw to use it the earliest instant you can, only to draw the card you want and them immediately Redraw it by accident.

The solution would be to program in an inate delay, but you could end up making jobs a little more clunkyn for example a delay could make it impossible to double weave Draw and Redraw (intentionally) without clipping your GCD.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The issue with some skills, like Draw/Undraw or Leylines/BtL, is that both being oGCDs it's possible to accidentally press the same button again immediately (especially if you hammer buttons).

So you're hammering away at Draw to use it the earliest instant you can, only to draw the card you want and them immediately Redraw it by accident.

The solution would be to program in an inate delay, but you could end up making jobs a little more clunkyn for example a delay could make it impossible to double weave Draw and Redraw (intentionally) without clipping your GCD.

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Give ActionA the effect "Triggers the cooldown of ActionB upon excecution." Put ActionB on cooldown for 0.5s when you use ActionA. This is long enough to prevent you from activating ActionB unintentionally unless you're being super overzealous with your button mashes--in which case, be less overzealous with your button mashes--but short enough that you can still double weave ActionB if you want to do so intentionally.

My only real gripe with button bloat currently is AST. Especially AST on a controller. There is A LOT to press.

I don't see any reason for Jump not to turn into Mirage Dive except that they'll give us that as a trait at level 93.

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Originally Posted by KuroMaboroshi

While I can't comment on the other two, this one I'd personally hate. The way I have organised my hotbar has me strictly separate my abilities that involve movement from my abilities that don't, to ensure I don't fatfinger any of them by accident. As such, having High Jump turn into Mirage Dive would be extremely annoying.

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(High) Jump doesn't involve movement at all. it puts you back at your starting point during the animation

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

There is no good reason for RDM's Enchanted combo to occupy 3 slots. It's 1-2-3 without variation.

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I think it's hard to do because on low level, RDM's spam only 1st or 1st then 2nd combo... While a job like GNB get constant 1-2-3

Agreed. With GNB gaining all 3 parts of their combo at once, ur never gonna have anything other than all 3, or none.
Any job with combo actions gained over time (Which is most of them tbh) should stick as they are. Scaling down for content would get really weird if ur 123 combo button was suddenly just 1 button.

Samurai: Ikishoten changes into Ogi Namikiri (which changes into Kaeshi: Namikiri right now). Ogi can only be done after Ikishoten(2 min cooldown) gives the Ogi Namikiri Ready buff (30 sec duration).
You can never use both at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Give ActionA the effect "Triggers the cooldown of ActionB upon excecution." Put ActionB on cooldown for 0.5s when you use ActionA. This is long enough to prevent you from activating ActionB unintentionally unless you're being super overzealous with your button mashes--in which case, be less overzealous with your button mashes--but short enough that you can still double weave ActionB if you want to do so intentionally.

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Unfortunately most oGCDs consume about 1s (but can also be queued slightly less than 1s before, hence why hammering the button could cause you to hit it again accidentally) which is why you can't just quintuple weave skills like a machine gun, and can only double weave most skills.
This means adding a 0.5s cooldown would bring a double weave cost up to 2.5s. Any amount of skill/spellspeed, or ping, will cause that to clip.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It's a case by case situation. You can't just reduce ALL combos down to a single button, but for some jobs it would be a QoL improvement.

Monk for example needs all of its weaponskills on seperate buttons for Perfect Balance, however Reapers 1-2-3 combo skills are functionally identical.

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What i find utterly ridiculous about the discussion is that there are people whose gameplay experience would benefit from consolidating certain combos (due to injuries like mine, general physical disability etc) yet the people who loudly proclaim "buuuuut skiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllllllllll" to deny it as though skill was any sort of factor in the request is astonishing.

The objectively best solution is for it to be an accessibility option. If some players get a better experience through converting certain combo paths into a single hotkey, let them.
For those who think pressing 3 different hotkeys makes them superior humans, let them keep doing that.

It makes no difference on the end result, all that changes is each individual player's experience.
If there were 2 Paladins standinjg side by side, performing their rotations flawlessly, what does it matter if the guy on the right pressed "123" and the guy on the left pressed "111" to achieve it?
All that should matter is that both players have the choice to use either method.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Unfortunately most oGCDs consume about 1s (but can also be queued slightly less than 1s before, hence why hammering the button could cause you to hit it again accidentally) which is why you can't just quintuple weave skills like a machine gun, and can only double weave most skills.
This means adding a 0.5s cooldown would bring a double weave cost up to 2.5s. Any amount of skill/spellspeed, or ping, will cause that to clip.

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No it wouldn't. The 0.5s cooldown would happen during the animation lock of the first action, which lasts on average 0.7s.

Reaper's Arcane Circle and Plentiful Harvest is another. You use 1 to literally enable the other... it seems really odd for it to be another button. And that one isn't even a GCD lock or oGCD Weave; you use it once the duration ends and its on GCD so...
I mean yes, Reaper isnt extra Button Bloated like the likes of AST or SAM, but it's still an odd choice.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It's a case by case situation. You can't just reduce ALL combos down to a single button, but for some jobs it would be a QoL improvement.

Monk for example needs all of its weaponskills on seperate buttons for Perfect Balance, however Reapers 1-2-3 combo skills are functionally identical.

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Spamming 1 button is way more boring than spamming 3 imo, RPR is already braindead enough as it is people already complain and rightfully so how empty it feels at lower levels when synced imagine if the base combo was 1 button it'd literally play like a story NPC in the MSQ...

People totally lose me when they start going on about turning the combos into 1 button and all that...
So tired of people trying to change what games are instead of just playing something different that fits their wants, I played WoW from Vanilla up to Cata and there was a ton of spamming of 1 and it wasn't fun imo.
The combat in FFXIV was one of the biggest draw for me because it feels way more involved.

GNB's Gnashing Fang combo is a bit different because I think there is a stronger argument to be made that it's one single ability split into three.
I don't think you can really make that argument for the base combos and such, you don't get them all at the same time in the leveling skill tree either they're separate skills.
Gnashing Fang however is more of a single skill and you get all of them at lvl 60 at the same time.



Ofc it lowers the level of skill required to play, it's ridiculous of people here to try and argue otherwise I dunno if people just don't want to admit that they want something to be easier but yes pressing 1 button is easier than pressing 3 especially while doing other things at the same time.
Just like how moving right then left and back is harder than moving right.
I even hear people say this about auto combos in fighting games and it's just lol...
Yes someone who is more skilled is going to beat someone spamming auto combos but the amount of skill required to do that is increased than if auto combos didn't exist and more skilled players can in some cases abuse it too while needing to put less effort in.
Less emphasis is put on skill and it makes the games more braindead.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

(due to injuries like mine, general physical disability etc)

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I sympathize with this, but you can't expect everything to be catered to people with injurities or disabilities.
There already are Jobs in the game that are less busy and easier to play in that case.
I don't think that Job design should be designed with that in mind overall, and it also begs the question of what disability or injury should take priority and be designed around.

I mean '' general physical disability '' what does that even mean?
How can you generalize something like that it doesn't make any real sense.

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Originally Posted by icrot

I have macros for situations like this.

I know people here aren't a big fan of them but they make my life easier.

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Same. And even using certain macros I still routinely out dps other people.

The basic design philosophy should be:

If Skill A triggers Skill B and Skill B can't be used on it's own, they should be the same button.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I sympathize with this, but you can't expect everything to be catered to people with injurities or disabilities.

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You kind of can actually. I realise it's a bit off topic, but in the EU at least more and more legislation is requiring digital media to meet certain accessibility requirements (websites come to mind first and foremost). Making media more accessible actually benefits everyone. Turning captions on to watch a film on mute, using text to speech to listen to a PDF instead of reading it etc. etc.

Having the option to combine abilities into less hotkeys is another example. If it's an option, it doesn't take anything away from those who still want to keep it as is, but it allows others who play more comfortably with fewer keys to enjoy the game too.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I sympathize with this, but you can't expect everything to be catered to people with injurities or disabilities.
There already are Jobs in the game that are less busy and easier to play in that case.
I don't think that Job design should be designed with that in mind overall, and it also begs the question of what disability or injury should take priority and be designed around.

I mean '' general physical disability '' what does that even mean?
How can you generalize something like that it doesn't make any real sense.

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Physical disabilities cover a fairly wide range. Not going to try to cover every single one lol, Maybe there was a better word for it, i dunno.

I did state that such options would be exactly that: Options.
We already have various accessibility options for things like color blindness.
Since the system for folding combo actions together exists thanks to PvP, it would not be hard for them to add the ability to use them to the accessibility options.

IIRC, There was a recent thread somewhere where someone was trying to help their disabled friend play Gunbreaker through macros. So its not like it'd help nobody.
Nothing about the jobs or future job design would need to change at all.
I don't think its healthy for the game to 'designate' certain jobs as being the only ones handicapped players are 'allowed' to play. The simple ability to fold certain combo actions together into one button helps far more than you'd think it does.
For myself, almost the entire rotation of any given job i play is handled through my mouse using Shift/ALT modifiers on the thumbpad and mousewheel because i can only comfortably use a very small selection keys on my keyboard.
That same injury makes it difficult to grip a controller for any length of time, making it difficult to use one for a game i cant pause. So yeah, save me some keybinds here and there and you open up more jobs that i can play at a decent level.

I wont speak for everyone, we all manage ourselves in a way that is unique to us, but wheres the harm in bringing an existing system to the wider game if it only makes the game more accessible for more people?
To reiterate: it'd be an option you enable in accessibility if you need it. I'm not asking for SE to make it the default everyone has to use.

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Originally Posted by RdehlikaJenma

(High) Jump doesn't involve movement at all. it puts you back at your starting point during the animation

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While technically correct, which is the best kind of correct, it does move you during the execution of the move, meaning that you can't press it without making sure that you are save to move from where you currently are to where the target you are hitting is to not clip into an AoE or something like that. Therefore, I prefer to keep it separated from non-moving abilities just like all the other jumps that don't put you back whence you came.

I say do it to help the handicapped players. Anyone who thinks a few extra buttons is going to affect “skill” arent the type of people to be skilled. If youre fumbling on something as easy as ff14 you probably shouldnt be announcing it.

F4 and B4 should swap depending on UI or AF. LL should change to BTL wheb activated. Transpose should turn into US while in UI.

Playing EW Paladin has made me more certain that I don't want PVP-style combos in PVE. I forget where I am in the magic-swords combo all the time as it is because it's just pressing the same button 4 times in a row. I need the physical sensation of moving around hitting 1 2 3 in order.

After what they did to summoner I'd rather they leave my astrologian alone.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

After what they did to summoner I'd rather they leave my astrologian alone.

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We're not asking for changes to the job. Just to a couple buttons that should be--and used to be--adaptive.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

We're not asking for changes to the job. Just to a couple buttons that should be--and used to be--adaptive.

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I understand that, I'm just not sure I trust them to take only the one step and not the next 10 after it.