Is sage just scholar with a different skin?

The more i am playing sage the more i feel like its essentially just scholar with a skin the majority of sage actions have a direct translation to scholar. Kardia is esentially a targeted embrace, physis is essentially WD+Illum, ixochole is just indom, kerachole is just sacred soil even sharing the same 78 trait, taurochole is excog(this one is a bit loose), druochole is 1 to 1 lustrate, pepsis is emergency tactics.
Addersgall is probably the only thing it deviates a bit from sch but is also just aetherflow with a small twist, instead of getting all 3 at once you gradually generate them and instead of getting 20% mana at once you get 21% by using them very similar. Pneuma, Haima and panhaima are the only actions that differentiate sage from scholar.
Ast while does have analogues in whm it still feels quite unique with cards, minor arcana star etc. But sage doesnt feel unique at all it just feels like 90% scholar, this is just my personal opinion.

Congratulations you have discovered what everyone's been saying the moment we saw its toolkit in the media tour

Its literally just what 5.0 sch should have been rather than anything new, albeit with whm's job gauge. It was also arisen from the mutilation of noct sect

It has something sch doesn't have, healing resource NOT being tied to damage.

It totally is what we were hoping SCH would be. With that said, from a movement perspective, it plays very differently. Phlegma + Toxicon + Icarus give a ton of mobility, while SCH is now a tower healer with no mobility (still not as bad as WHM though).

They play differently and they have some skills exclusive with their jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

It totally is what we were hoping SCH would be. With that said, from a movement perspective, it plays very differently. Phlegma + Toxicon + Icarus give a ton of mobility, while SCH is now a tower healer with no mobility (still not as bad as WHM though).

---

Do you know what ruin II does?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crossu

They play differently and they have some skills exclusive with their jobs.



Do you know what ruin II does?

---

Sorry, let me amend that comment with "in optimized play".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

The more i am playing sage the more i feel like its essentially just scholar with a skin the majority of sage actions have a direct translation to scholar. Kardia is esentially a targeted embrace, physis is essentially WD+Illum, ixochole is just indom, kerachole is just sacred soil even sharing the same 78 trait, taurochole is excog(this one is a bit loose), druochole is 1 to 1 lustrate, pepsis is emergency tactics.
Addersgall is probably the only thing it deviates a bit from sch but is also just aetherflow with a small twist, instead of getting all 3 at once you gradually generate them and instead of getting 20% mana at once you get 21% by using them very similar. Pneuma, Haima and panhaima are the only actions that differentiate sage from scholar.
Ast while does have analogues in whm it still feels quite unique with cards, minor arcana star etc. But sage doesnt feel unique at all it just feels like 90% scholar, this is just my personal opinion.

---

To an extent, yes.

If you already have your SCH hotbars setup, you can basically copy your setup to SGE, and then map them to SGE's equivalent abilities with only a few unique things to worry about.

This has pretty much how healing has been since AST's launch disaster which resulted in SE quickly copying WHM's stuff to AST and making many of WHM's abilities into role actions.

It's about 85% I think. And to a degree it plays more like an evolved 2.0 SCH on the healing side but I've not played 6.0 SCH to get a comparison on how they've rebalanced it. However, both at a more optimised state of play are more weighted to their oGCD's and there are some differences between them, obviously Addersgall spells have their Aetherflow equivalents but stuff like Holos, Haima, Panhaima etc. I don't think have direct equivalents. It does flow differently to SCH and some of its abilities mean it has a different feel, but functionally they're very, very close because you can find like-for-like functionality between the majority of abilities.

With that said, I couldn't enjoy 5.0 SCH and I enjoy SGE but then I was a great lover of 2.0 SCH. But it's basically more-or-less what I think 5.0 SCH should have been. It is an evolution on its design but suited to their current direction in healing design philosophy. Granted...the philosophy is flawed, but it's the best of a bad situation IMO as a former SCH main.

I mean with the game suffering from the Holy Trinity ( Tank, Healer. DPS , except BLU) what did you expect?

FFXIV jobs are all about Balance so no jobs have a disadvantage over one or the other

and with that they lose their uniqueness and are more homogenized as more jobs are added

if your looking for Job Diversify, this game isn't it sadly, I would suggest giving FFXI a try as all jobs are vastly different from one another e.g Puppet Master can DPS, use their puppet as a tank or have the Puppet heal with Healer attachments, Red Mage can Heal or DPS, Bard is a heavily Support job that can DD if needed, ect

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

Sorry, let me amend that comment with "in optimized play".

---

Ruin II + Energy Drain, so you are still incorrect.

And who's "we". Some SCH players really seem to love using pluralis maiestatis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

Sorry, let me amend that comment with "in optimized play".

---

Ah yes, the "optimized play" of spamming Eukrasian Diagnosis to have access to Toxicron and having both of your movement options on 45 sec CD vs having a Ruin II on command without any requirements.
Unless you mean that you are talking optimized to the point of using in during downtime and calculating the exact three uses of toxicron, then yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

Ruin II + Energy Drain, so you are still incorrect.

And who's "we". Some SCH players really seem to love using pluralis maiestatis.

---

We = the general posts and feature requests from the active posters in the healer forums over the past 3 or so years? At the very least the general sentiment.
And Ruin II + ED still isn't optimized, so no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crossu

Ah yes, the "optimized play" of spamming Eukrasian Diagnosis to have access to Toxicron and having both of your movement options on 45 sec CD vs having a Ruin II on command without any requirements.

---

Never said anything about spamming Eukrasian Diagnosis. Nor did I say anything about actually wasting a gcd for it (since that's what you seem to be insinuating).
And yes, you can literally spam ruin II non-stop. That doesn't mean you should do it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there's no value or that mobility isn't good on SCH in a variety of scenarios (prog?). I'm just saying it's another skill you want to avoid as much as possible when optimizing (so mobility gets pretty bad comparatively). Unlike SGE's options that already cover all movement requirements you can encounter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

We = the general posts and feature requests from the active posters in the healer forums over the past 3 or so years? At the very least the general sentiment.
And Ruin II + ED still isn't optimized, so no.

---

It's a good habit to speak for yourself unless you are an official spokesperson. Especially because I'm sure that you are aware of the fact that the forums have an overrepresentation of people that dislike something, simply because "XY has issues" is a far more interesting thread than "XY is perfect, literally no discussion to have here". If you want the illusion of a consensus, "perceived consensus" would be a wiser choice of words.

That being said, Ruin II + ED is certainly optimized, as Broil won't be always enough for movement and that is your next best option.
Besides, your comment was even more incorrect because you said, and I'm quoting you, that "SCH is now a tower healer with no mobility". "Now" implies that SCH was more mobile in ShB, which is objectively wrong as the shorter cast time on Broil added mobility and did not remove it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I mean with the game suffering from the Holy Trinity ( Tank, Healer. DPS , except BLU) what did you expect?

FFXIV jobs are all about Balance so no jobs have a disadvantage over one or the other

and with that they lose their uniqueness and are more homogenized as more jobs are added

if your looking for Job Diversify, this game isn't it sadly, I would suggest giving FFXI a try as all jobs are vastly different from one another e.g Puppet Master can DPS, use their puppet as a tank or have the Puppet heal with Healer attachments, Red Mage can Heal or DPS, Bard is a heavily Support job that can DD if needed, ect

---

Literally just Healers are this incredibly homogenized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

Ruin II + Energy Drain, so you are still incorrect.

And who's "we". Some SCH players really seem to love using pluralis maiestatis.

---

Because Broil + ED isn't a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

It's a good habit to speak for yourself unless you are an official spokesperson. Especially because I'm sure that you are aware of the fact that the forums have an overrepresentation of people that dislike something, simply because "XY has issues" is a far more interesting thread than "XY is perfect, literally no discussion to have here". If you want the illusion of a consensus, "perceived consensus" would be a wiser choice of words.

That being said, Ruin II + ED is certainly optimized, as Broil won't be always enough for movement and that is your next best option.
Besides, your comment was even more incorrect because you said, and I'm quoting you, that "SCH is now a tower healer with no mobility". "Now" implies that SCH was more mobile in ShB, which is objectively wrong as the shorter cast time on Broil added mobility and did not remove it.

---

You're overthinking it. It's one word I used to convey the sentiment I've seen in this forum, and I did so in my reply to a post in this same forum. Seems decently adequate. Plus, the SCH changes people have been wanting to see (mostly in these forums, feel like I need to mention that again), all relate to how healer gameplay has a low ceiling, which limits the scope by default. It's almost "in the title" that I'm not speaking in the name of every sch ever. With that said. I'm really not attached to it, just replace it with "I". That works too.

As far as SCH in ShB. It was more mobile because you had to heal and/or spend your stacks on ED. And that meant either clipping your GCD for a loss or using ruin II + oGCD for the same DPS loss (but gaining mobility). And in fact, the optimized play was to double weave your ruin IIs, always. So you would work towards fitting your heals and other ogcds into your movement windows. Ruin II + ogcd was viable and preferable to Broil + ogcd. So you could freely Ruin II + ED + ogcd for movement and that was optimized. That's no longer the case since Broil + ogcd is better in every way with the new 1.5s casts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

You're overthinking it. It's one word I used to convey the sentiment I've seen in this forum, and I did so in my reply to a post in this same forum. Seems decently adequate. Plus, the SCH changes people have been wanting to see (mostly in these forums, feel like I need to mention that again), all relate to how healer gameplay has a low ceiling, which limits the scope by default. It's almost "in the title" that I'm not speaking in the name of every sch ever. With that said. I'm really not attached to it, just replace it with "I". That works too.

As far as SCH in ShB. It was more mobile because you had to heal and/or spend your stacks on ED. And that meant either clipping your GCD for a loss or using ruin II + oGCD for the same DPS loss (but gaining mobility). And in fact, the optimized play was to double weave your ruin IIs, always. So you would work towards fitting your heals and other ogcds into your movement windows. Ruin II + ogcd was viable and preferable to Broil + ogcd. So you could freely Ruin II + ED + ogcd for movement and that was optimized. That's no longer the case since Broil + ogcd is better in every way with the new 1.5s casts.

---

What you are saying is that SCH had no mobility available on demand that wasn't a DPS loss or suboptimal, as your option were a Biolysis refresh (which was always every 30s) and a Ruin II + ED + fairy heal (or something like Ruin II + ED + Recitation and Ruin II + ED + Indomitability) which means that your movement was dictated by healing (if you want to be optimal).

Now your Ruin II + ED windows can be used purely for movement (when a Broil wouldn't suffice) and you don't have to feel like you should weave a heal there to be optimal in order not to waste a precious window to weave.

So I'm really, really curious to learn how ShB SCH was more mobile, especially after EW SCH what mode AST the objectively more mobile healer of the bunch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

What you are saying is that SCH had no mobility available on demand that wasn't a DPS loss or suboptimal, as your option were a Biolysis refresh (which was always every 30s) and a Ruin II + ED + fairy heal (or something like Ruin II + ED + Recitation and Ruin II + ED + Indomitability) which means that your movement was dictated by healing (if you want to be optimal).

Now your Ruin II + ED windows can be used purely for movement (when a Broil wouldn't suffice) and you don't have to feel like you should weave a heal there to be optimal in order not to waste a precious window to weave.

So I'm really, really curious to learn how ShB SCH was more mobile, especially after EW SCH what mode AST the objectively more mobile healer of the bunch.

---

Ruin 2 the moment you can weave with broil becomes a dps loss no matter if you weave ED or not, Wtf are you saying?

If you need to heal just weave the heal, if you need to move you move if you need to weave a heal and move you swift and if for some reason you need to move, heal and swift is on cd either you plan the healing so that doesnt happen or if anything else fails you then use ruin 2, a skill that is literally the last resort is not "optimal"

Edit: and about how Shb was more mobile is simple Shb Sch coudnt weave with broil, they didn't have a better alternative to use ED than using it with Ruin 2 Swift it or time it with biolysis (which is kinda where one of the niches of complexity of Sch resided, how you weaved, now lost like anything remotely interesting in healer gameplay of course), this means that using Ruin 2 + ED was not a loss vs anything and as such Shb Sch could use Ruin 2 and being less penalized than current Sch

SGE does have more personal movement, with ability to pre-store 3 Addersting at the start of the fight and during transitions.

But SCH has the ultimate team movement tool. <3

To put the movement issues into perspective.
WHM using lilies for movement is a 85 potency loss. It used to be 75 potency in SHB but w/e. It was also a weaving tool so you wouldn't clip Assize or Quickcast or PoM or w/e (you get the gist) so overall those 75 potency lost felt lesser than they actually were. Which is why now more than ever Lilies need a potency buff.
SCH using Ruin II for movement is a 75 potency loss. It used to be 90 potency in SHB but Ruin II being the only weaving window (outside of Biolosys) meant that Ruin II + ED was actually a 10 potency gain (200+100 vs 290). That is no longer the case since you can weave whenever. Doesn't matter when you ED as long as you use it before Aetherflow comes offcooldown. So yeah Ruin II right now feels a little outdated for optimized play, it's great for prog though and a ease of use luxury no other healer has.
AST technically has Lightspeed but if you're serious about AST gameplay you know that it's best to save it for the 2 minute burst windows rather than movement due to the amount of weaving AST needs to perform.
Then we have SGE who not only has a gapcloser (which allowed me to ignore positioning on several occasions since i just dash to people who're already in the right spot, it also has Phlegma which, yes is melee range but its been stated several times before that you rarely wanna be out of melee range anyway since that makes dodging mechanics and healing the entire party easier. Phlegma is also DPS positive, we actually gain like 180 potency and don't suffer any penalties from movement. If Phlegma nor Icarus works we have Toxicon which is DPS neutral if you know when to fish for it and spend it wisely. Meaning that we now have 3 healers who would prefer to slidecast and 1 healer who can slidecast and run around without DPS penalty (If played well). This is well balanced indeed.

If you don't just get caught up with the end effects of skills, and certain potencies and durations etc, but actually take into consideration the execution of skills and the contextual differences in how you use those skills, not at all.
I can't play SCH to (literally) save my life, but SGE fits me like a glove.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

To put the movement issues into perspective.
WHM using lilies for movement is a 85 potency loss. It used to be 75 potency in SHB but w/e. It was also a weaving tool so you wouldn't clip Assize or Quickcast or PoM or w/e (you get the gist) so overall those 75 potency lost felt lesser than they actually were. Which is why now more than ever Lilies need a potency buff.
SCH using Ruin II for movement is a 75 potency loss. It used to be 90 potency in SHB but Ruin II being the only weaving window (outside of Biolosys) meant that Ruin II + ED was actually a 10 potency gain (200+100 vs 290). That is no longer the case since you can weave whenever. Doesn't matter when you ED as long as you use it before Aetherflow comes offcooldown. So yeah Ruin II right now feels a little outdated for optimized play, it's great for prog though and a ease of use luxury no other healer has.
AST technically has Lightspeed but if you're serious about AST gameplay you know that it's best to save it for the 2 minute burst windows rather than movement due to the amount of weaving AST needs to perform.
Then we have SGE who not only has a gapcloser (which allowed me to ignore positioning on several occasions since i just dash to people who're already in the right spot, it also has Phlegma which, yes is melee range but its been stated several times before that you rarely wanna be out of melee range anyway since that makes dodging mechanics and healing the entire party easier. Phlegma is also DPS positive, we actually gain like 180 potency and don't suffer any penalties from movement. If Phlegma nor Icarus works we have Toxicon which is DPS neutral if you know when to fish for it and spend it wisely. Meaning that we now have 3 healers who would prefer to slidecast and 1 healer who can slidecast and run around without DPS penalty (If played well). This is well balanced indeed.

---

Not arguing that the situation isn't unbalanced, but Toxikon really is not DPS neutral unless you earned them through E. Diagnosis cast during pre-pull or during a phase change in which case you have, at most, 3 of them to use before the next phase change. Any more than that and it's a 330 potency loss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Not arguing that the situation isn't unbalanced, but Toxikon really is not DPS neutral unless you earned them through E. Diagnosis cast during pre-pull or during a phase change in which case you have, at most, 3 of them to use before the next phase change. Any more than that and it's a 330 potency loss.

---

Yes, which is why i said "Toxicon which is DPS neutral if you know when to fish for it and spend it wisely". If you're fishing for it during up time you're just doing it wrong and that's probably it's biggest weakness. If Rhizomata gave a Addersting I feel like this issue would get alleviated a lot since, talking about normal versions of the current raids since i don't run savage, P3 is the only raid with down time that allows generating sting mid-fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Yes, which is why i said "Toxicon which is DPS neutral if you know when to fish for it and spend it wisely". If you're fishing for it during up time you're just doing it wrong and that's probably it's biggest weakness. If Rhizomata gave a Addersting I feel like this issue would get alleviated a lot since, talking about normal versions of the current raids since i don't run savage, P3 is the only raid with down time that allows generating sting mid-fight.

---

Ah I missed that part, but I do think it's worth emphasizing regardless. As much as it makes sense for Rhizomata to grant Addersting, I also feel that it creates 2 issues if we went that route.
- First, it could make Rhizomata turn into a DPS button. Even if it's just for the sake of mobility, it puts pressure on you to use it to avoid losing DPS in situations where you otherwise might.
- Second, it also kind of locks Toxikon in as just a restrictive, stronger Ruin II which I feel like is an inherent weakness in its design and needs to be corrected. As it stands, it's a glaring flaw in Sage's design and while I recognize that the rest of the job is largely very strong, I would rather sacrifice some of that power in exchange for making Toxikon something fun and rewarding.

To be fair, With sage mobility, 3 is all you need for a fight. There are a couple of fights that could benefit from a few more (Phoinix + Ex fights) but you can fish for them just fine during downtime sections.

I don't think so?

They have the same skills but the play with SGE feels a lot different imo.

For SGE it's about constant smaller upkeep of passive mitigation so that your smaller heals can continue to do better, and hoping that you get a crit sometimes.

SCH feels more "direct" in that if you want to big shield, you will. Because you Recitation, you can emergency tactics, etc and "plan" that movement out.

I'm working on a big post but there are some issues with the new "meta" of healing and encounters vs SCH though. SCH's shields are on the GCD meaning that unlike SGE's passive mitigation + heals with Dosis, SCH has to stop everything to cast their shields without swift. To add to this because of the fairy lag (something easily fixable now that we have new SMN to look at) SCH felt like they were more focused on a MT than the entire party imo like SGE is.

If there were a heal equivalent to "chip damage" I'd say that's what SGE is while SCH is a heal nuke when utilized effectively. Pnuema and zoe give you a lot of options but the key to the kit imo is a lot of small heals frequently vs fire and forget skills like excog/adlo/etc.

Upkeep vs Application I guess?

If they give SCH a barrier or two on AF or weavable, move ED off of AF, they'd go a bit of a ways towards making SCH's kit more uniform with the new "meta." The issue right now is AST has quick/passive heals and regens, WHM has regens, SGE has mitigation, but SCH only has fairy heals and AF to heal with which doesn't allow for any passive healing outside of fairy, which you can't even direct to specific targets to make it more useful.

I definitely feel like "playing" SCH and SGE back to back they have much different identities, but I do think SGE shows some of the glaring flaws in SCH's current kit that can be fixed thanks to SGE and new SMN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

*snip*

---

I think the crux of the issue is that the jobs don't give us a reason to really care about GCD healing once we leave the ARR level range. Esp. people who wanna perform the best they can will solely rely on OGCD heals and GCD heals are seen as a last resort. It doesn't help that MP is supposed to balance GCD heals but since so little are used it becomes not only a DPS loss but also a Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis fuel loss to GCD heal.
I wish we had mechanics that gave us reason to care about GCD healing again. I really like the lily system for that but it needs improvements, AST is supposed to be GCD healing orientated, after all Synastry and Helios exist, but for some reason they keep giving it the most powerful OGCD's and that class really doesn't need more OGCD's to weave, cards already make AST busy enough. Sage's Pneuma & AST Macrocosmos might be the best GCD heals we have right now, ironically because both of them are also DPS neutral attacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I think the crux of the issue is that the jobs don't give us a reason to really care about GCD healing once we leave the ARR level range. Esp. people who wanna perform the best they can will solely rely on OGCD heals and GCD heals are seen as a last resort. It doesn't help that MP is supposed to balance GCD heals but since so little are used it becomes not only a DPS loss but also a Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis fuel loss to GCD heal.
I wish we had mechanics that gave us reason to care about GCD healing again. I really like the lily system for that but it needs improvements, AST is supposed to be GCD healing orientated, after all Synastry and Helios exist, but for some reason they keep giving it the most powerful OGCD's and that class really doesn't need more OGCD's to weave, cards already make AST busy enough. Sage's Pneuma & AST Macrocosmos might be the best GCD heals we have right now, ironically because both of them are also DPS neutral attacks.

---

I would agree with a lot of what you're saying however i don't see that AST is 'supposed' to be GCD oriented, I could point out that SGE has its equivalents. I do agree that AST has plenty of OGCDs and doesn't need any more thrown at it. If anything the fact that ASt has cards to deal with historically argued for it having the 1.5 sec cast time and its wealth of OGCD heals, as opposed to a job like WHM which really need to be able to slidecast in order to deal with its relative lack of mobility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I would agree with a lot of what you're saying however i don't see that AST is 'supposed' to be GCD oriented, I could point out that SGE has its equivalents. I do agree that AST has plenty of OGCDs and doesn't need any more thrown at it. If anything the fact that ASt has cards to deal with historically argued for it having the 1.5 sec cast time and its wealth of OGCD heals, as opposed to a job like WHM which really need to be able to slidecast in order to deal with its relative lack of mobility.

---

I know this is a hot take that AST is supposed to be a GCD healer but honestly skills like Synastry feel pointless on AST because they're restricted to GCD heals, Horoscope (i meant to say Horoscope not helios in my previous post) is a weak 200 potency OGCD heal unless you use a Helios or Aspected Helios at which point it becomes 400 + whatever Helios is restoring, both of which require GCD heals. Then the GCD kit of AST is a carbon copy of WHM, minus Cure III which is... I mean it's Cure III and a equally useless trait trying to justify using Benefic for an enhanced Benefic II as well as Astrodyne buffing Spell cast time, which granted mainly affects DPS but it also affects GCD heals & HoT effects. Lastly Neutral sect which applies shields to your aspected GCD heals while also buffing them by 20%. And then you play AST in PvP and realize they gave it a Dualcast trait which would be extremely interesting trait to see a GCD healer be built around in PvE. So clearly the devs seem to have at least an idea of a GCD healer here but for some reason they overpower the OGCD abilities so much to the point where AST's stronger GCD kit (compared to WHM) still can't keep up with the power of its OGCD abilities nor do they bother to make GCD healing be a return on investment to DPS like Lilies are on WHM. It feels like the devs don't have the confidence to double down on a GCD healer design because the meta pretty much demands good OGCD to not disrupt our Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis factory. Out of all GCD healing interactions i mentioned in this post Macrocosmos is the only DPS neutral one, it just really feels like a missed opportunity to me that they'd give all those GCD enhancing tools and do nothing with them because Celestial Opposition, Earthly Star, Exaltation, Celestial Intersection & essential Dignity are just so strong that you forget the GCD healing buttons even exist.

To be fair, healing design in general is "supposed" to be GCD oriented. I say this not because it's the way the game's design encourages you to play (because it isn't). It comes out in live letter statements and consistent bizarre design direction. This is an oversimplification, but by all appearances the healer designer expects that you spend most of your time spamming GCD heals, occasionally using an oGCD, and maybe casting Dosis twice a minute if you're lucky enough to find the time between the two very scary instances of outgoing damage per minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

To be fair, healing design in general is "supposed" to be GCD oriented. I say this not because it's the way the game's design encourages you to play (because it isn't). It comes out in live letter statements and consistent bizarre design direction. This is an oversimplification, but by all appearances the healer designer expects that you spend most of your time spamming GCD heals, occasionally using an oGCD, and maybe casting Dosis twice a minute if you're lucky enough to find the time between the two very scary instances of outgoing damage per minute.

---

Meanwhile the only time I've even touched E. Diagnosis while progging P1S was when someone was dead during temps and I threw every barrier ontop of myself in hopes of living to LB3 (which failed every time, mind you). Haven't progged P2S and onward yet; busy work weeks for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Meanwhile the only time I've even touched E. Diagnosis while progging P1S was when someone was dead during temps and I threw every barrier ontop of myself in hopes of living to LB3 (which failed every time, mind you). Haven't progged P2S and onward yet; busy work weeks for me.

---

And there's that old healer design corner they've painted themselves into. We don't have the time or creative drive to make healers that play well for people who both play them horribly and play them well, so we'll design them for people who play horribly. So that players who play horribly might be able to squeak through higher level content that is...designed to gate playing one's job horribly. That's the only tortured mental pretzel I can make out of it, because the alternative is that they just don't play healers at all, and while I suspect that a great deal, I also know Yoshi has a static that actually clears stuff so there's no way he doesn't at least have theoretical contact with someone capable of healing at a high level. Does he just raid with terrified 100 DPS Cure spammers? That can't be, he'd never have cleared E8S until outgearing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

And there's that old healer design corner they've painted themselves into. We don't have the time or creative drive to make healers that play well for people who both play them horribly and play them well, so we'll design them for people who play horribly. So that players who play horribly might be able to squeak through higher level content that is...designed to gate playing one's job horribly. That's the only tortured mental pretzel I can make out of it, because the alternative is that they just don't play healers at all, and while I suspect that a great deal, I also know Yoshi has a static that actually clears stuff so there's no way he doesn't at least have theoretical contact with someone capable of healing at a high level. Does he just raid with terrified 100 DPS Cure spammers? That can't be, he'd never have cleared E8S until outgearing it.

---

Thankfully, that doesn't seem to be a case anymore. Since Tanks and DPS get a bigger healing toolkit like they do now, then there's more creative freedom since there's less burden to the healer themselves. This enables the devs to have a bigger creative space for healers other than just 'healing' since part of the "healing stress" is now moved over to teamplay instead, freeing healers to do other stuff outside of just healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Thankfully, that doesn't seem to be a case anymore. Since Tanks and DPS get a bigger healing toolkit like they do now, then there's more creative freedom since there's less burden to the healer themselves. This enables the devs to have a bigger creative space for healers other than just 'healing' since part of the "healing stress" is now moved over to teamplay instead, freeing healers to do other stuff outside of just healing.

---

you say its not a case anymore but the only non healing things theyve done with that creative freedom was phlegma and minor arcana. I guess expedient kind of counts?

i guess scholar will finally get miasma back once they buff natural hp regen to 10% max hp every server tick

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Thankfully, that doesn't seem to be a case anymore. Since Tanks and DPS get a bigger healing toolkit like they do now, then there's more creative freedom since there's less burden to the healer themselves. This enables the devs to have a bigger creative space for healers other than just 'healing' since part of the "healing stress" is now moved over to teamplay instead, freeing healers to do other stuff outside of just healing.

---

Wouldn't it be nice if the design team realized that? But no, ask the job design team and healers are all more stressed than ever, and casting more than one spell over and over and over and over again as a downtime activity is just tooooooooo scary. You should be at your wits' end spamming Cure and Medica all the time, only barely scraping out two or three Glares over the course of an entire fight if you're really skilled.

They've spent several expansions in a row making outgoing mandatory damage less prevalent, healing kits hilariously stronger, given healing tools to tanks and DPS, and dumbed downtime activity to the smoothbrainiest it's ever been. Healers now have the most freedom they've ever had to not heal. Yippee, more time to cast Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. So much fun.

I'm actually of the mind that there's only two real "easy" solutions for healers moving forward honestly.

1. If they want GCD healing so bad they need to put better stuff on GCD and/or make more things weavable for dps.
2. Make most of their healing kit OGCD to have damage combos in their main rotation while weaving being the skill ceiling present with healing.

If I'm doing a rotation and damage skills while being able to weave/ogcd my heals, it at least varies up and spices up the moment to moment gameplay.

I'm thinking from the perspective of when I'm playing dps and I weave Addle/Feint/Tactician/etc. If that's the perspective they want to go, they need to go all in imo.

I definitely think this expac fixed a lot of issues I had personally. While in an ideal/good party you don't heal hardly at all, tanks who don't mitigate take way more damage on bigger pulls and require more upkeep, and when the party isn't on top of their stuff you feel it a bit more this expac imo.