Stowaways in High-End Content?

I understand the point of the "Duty-Complete" Gatekeep filter to ensure after completing a piece of content you would only be paired up with players who also completed it for optimal performance.

But I ask in sense of the fact that high end content such as savages where progressing through mechanics alone is something to be milestones that we have a sort of "Half-Completion" Filter or something similar that party leaders can filter through players with.

I ask this because while people who completed the content are protected from players who sneak into their party with limited understanding of the fight or simply don't care. Anyone short of their completion does not. Savage is not like other bits of content where one can learn and plow through within a couple of minutes so party finders are organized at set progression points of boss mechanics. But that is simply a spoken rule to be respected. Anyone can enter any duty incomplete party with no experience and ruin it. And people do.

What do you guys think of this?

I dunno if the game could really keep track of prog checkpoints in a fight.

Considering even in Savage people not carrying their weight can get a full on clear, allowing "stowaways" into farm parties... I'm not sure the system you propose would have too much of an impact.

How do you even define progression points? Like, let's take P2S for example. There's a mechanic that most people are referring to as "Limit Cut" (which isn't its actual name, thanks PF...) that tends to be the biggest wall in the fight. How do you define whether or not someone's progressed past Limit Cut?

Have you progressed past Limit Cut if you're a PLD who popped Hallowed Ground and stood off to the side while the entire rest of the party ran around like headless chickens and got deleted?

Have you progressed past Limit Cut if most of the party died to it but there was a SMN still up who raised a healer who LB3'd and the party made it to enrage on that pull?

Likewise, have you not progressed past Limit Cut if you were slightly out of position and got clipped by something and killed while the rest of the party survived because all 8 people involved know the strat and were (roughly) in the right spots?

Progression is a very vague concept. We want it to mean "I understand every mechanic prior to X point in the fight and am capable of consistently executing all of them correctly." But there isn't really a way to define that in terms the game would understand without introducing other room for error. Even "first death = that's the prog point for the whole party" fails when someone derps on an early mechanic and the party hits enrage with only that death, because the party most certainly has progressed past that early mechanic.

I can tell you from experience that PF Hell is a real place and it sucks, and I definitely agree with you that having some better way to filter people than just listing your prog point in the description and praying you get 7 people at or after that point would be a massive help, but I just don't see it being feasible.

I don't think that will matter. People in PF will kill the party rather than suffer someone who is still having trouble with mechs, regardless of whether they have cleared or not.

That's just how screwed up PF is. They should rename it to Toxic Finder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamieRose

I don't think that will matter. People in PF will kill the party rather than suffer someone who is still having trouble with mechs, regardless of whether they have cleared or not.

That's just how screwed up PF is. They should rename it to Toxic Finder.

---

???

If you're joining clear/farm parties when you don't have an understanding of the whole fight, regardless if you've cleared or not, people have the right to be annoyed with you.

You should be joining learning parties and even then, I rarely see anyone get roasted in those, since they're learning parties.

What are you considering "toxicity"? Because the strict ToS allows for none of that in chat. "Toxic Finder" comes off as overdramatic. The most toxic you can get in this game is passive-aggressiveness, yet even that somehow manages to make some people break down...

I wish I could see some of you 25 seconds in a Black Ops 1 lobby where everyone is mic'd up. For science.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iVolke

???

If you're joining clear/farm parties when you don't have an understanding of the whole fight, regardless if you've cleared or not, people have the right to be annoyed with you.

You should be joining learning parties and even then, I rarely see anyone get roasted in those, since they're learning parties.

What are you considering "toxicity"? Because the strict ToS allows for none of that in chat. "Toxic Finder" comes off as overdramatic. The most toxic you can get in this game is passive-aggressiveness, yet even that somehow manages to make some people break down...

I wish I could see some of you 25 seconds in a Black Ops 1 lobby where everyone is mic'd up. For science.

---

I got dragged into PUBG, close enough. It still doesn't make people cursing me out any less toxic because they aren't dropping N-Bombs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamieRose

I got dragged into PUBG, close enough. It still doesn't make people cursing me out any less toxic because they aren't dropping N-Bombs.

---

I don't believe you that you're getting cursed out in this game, honestly. ToS is too strict, so you could easily report them. Most people don't risk their accounts like that. How many posts in the "Horror stories from DF" threads are people getting randomly cursed out? Stop exaggerating.

There's no way you're getting cursed out in every single PF. If you are, then let's consider the common denominator.

I'm not saying there isn't toxicity. I'm saying that it doesn't take the usual form of blatant insults like in other games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iVolke

I don't believe you that you're getting cursed out in this game, honestly. ToS is too strict, so you could easily report them. Most people don't risk their accounts like that. How many posts in the "Horror stories from DF" threads are people getting randomly cursed out? Stop exaggerating.

There's no way you're getting cursed out in every single PF. If you are, then let's consider the common denominator.

I'm not saying there isn't toxicity. I'm saying that it doesn't take the usual form of blatant insults like in other games.

---

Another case of "It never happened to me, so it must have never happened to you."

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stepjam

I dunno if the game could really keep track of prog checkpoints in a fight.

---

I would like to suggest maybe a % track on individual progress. Or perhaps having more fights into checkpoints like doorbosses on the last savage fights you could have a option to set it to people who have made it to that checkpoint.
Perhaps if duty complete is checked by the achievement have a "Half way there" achievement you get for wiping past 50% or higher.

Its scrappy.. Its slapdash but its honestly better then what we have going here. Not everyone has statics or a group of friends to consistently work with. Square is out of touch if they think everyone does. And with third party illegal software like ACT running the scene on most statics, finding such groups is harder then it should be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I would like to suggest maybe a % track on individual progress. Or perhaps having more fights into checkpoints like doorbosses on the last savage fights you could have a option to set it to people who have made it to that checkpoint.
Perhaps if duty complete is checked by the achievement have a "Half way there" achievement you get for wiping past 50% or higher.

Its scrappy.. Its slapdash but its honestly better then what we have going here. Not everyone has statics or a group of friends to consistently work with. Square is out of touch if they think everyone does. And with third party illegal software like ACT running the scene on most statics, finding such groups is harder then it should be.

---

All someone has to do is get carried to that magic percentage and they get past your system.

There's no system that will get rid of stowaways and it lets players through who guessed the mechanic right and therefore didn't really learn the mechanic as they didn't have to figure it out due to failure.

The current system is just fine like it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seera1024

All someone has to do is get carried to that magic percentage and they get past your system.

There's no system that will get rid of stowaways and it lets players through who guessed the mechanic right and therefore didn't really learn the mechanic as they didn't have to figure it out due to failure.

The current system is just fine like it is.

---

My solution isn't perfect I know that but that doesn't mean that doing nothing is the better choice either. Some step in the right direction is better then none.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I would like to suggest maybe a % track on individual progress. Or perhaps having more fights into checkpoints like doorbosses on the last savage fights you could have a option to set it to people who have made it to that checkpoint.
Perhaps if duty complete is checked by the achievement have a "Half way there" achievement you get for wiping past 50% or higher.

---

And would that be tracked per job? Or at least per role? Because I can assure you that just because someone reached a certain point in a fight (or even cleared it) as a tank they dont necessarly know how to heal it. Or how to play a DPS well enough to bring the needed damage to the fight. Or how to deal with mechanics that are role-specific. I could enter a farm group for the Second Ex-Primal right now with my scholar and people would be rightfully wondering if thats my first time doing that trial at all - despite me having cleared it multiple times with my paladin. Your system would still allow me to enter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

Its scrappy.. Its slapdash but its honestly better then what we have going here. Not everyone has statics or a group of friends to consistently work with. Square is out of touch if they think everyone does. And with third party illegal software like ACT running the scene on most statics, finding such groups is harder then it should be.

---

Right, not everyone has a group of friends or a static - but everyone can build or find one. Befriend those people from failed farm/clear groups who showed potential (both in regards to the fight and in regards to being nice enough people). Invite them to linkshells and/or a Discord server for that purpose. Or ask if anyone already has such a linkshell/discord server you could join.

In regards to ACT... in my personal experience its not as present and excluding as some people portrait it - but again: personal experience, anecdotes, etc.
I am a little surprised though that you bring it up as a negative point - seeing how you would like to introduce more ingame-gatekeeping to get rid of "stowaways"... doesnt ACT (and people using it) do essentially the same? Knowing the mechanics and/or the fight up to a certain point is all fine and dandy, but if you hit enrage at 30% because half the people know how to dodge, but not how to deal damage you wont clear the content either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamieRose

I don't think that will matter. People in PF will kill the party rather than suffer someone who is still having trouble with mechs, regardless of whether they have cleared or not.

That's just how screwed up PF is. They should rename it to Toxic Finder.

---

No one should have to "suffer someone who is still having trouble with the mechs" when that person joined an enrage prog party and keeps messing up on the first two minutes. Wasting other people's time like this is incredibly disrespectful.

Stepping into savage in this game takes effort and the PF is sort of the fallback in my mind when someone can't get a set group to come together. The problem with the PF is just that people have different commitment levels to the savage content, and the reality is that unfortunately, those with the largest sums of time on hand to dedicate to savage are the real benefactors of the PF.

This is why so many true statics are more so bending towards midcore or casual play. And to be frank there's just not enough people building statics right now to satiate the sheer volume of players wanting to participate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

In regards to ACT... in my personal experience its not as present and excluding as some people portrait it - but again: personal experience, anecdotes, etc.
.

---

I don't know maybe your parse is better then mine but I have tried and failed on literally every attempt to even join new static parties because they are all looking for act. I've never had a problem with parser stuff in theory but ACT specifically is a very flawed program that is being over relied on and used in ways that aren't actually representative of anything people are looking for. It has grown rampant in this community and it shouldn't not just out of principle but out of all the flaws it has to not be relied on.

You say I could make a party but if one has problems joining any statics because of act what is the likelihood anyone would stay or respect a party you made either. People in this community use act almost as a social credit system, defining your quality as a person and a player and often just the percentage. Not 'if' you cleared or how much you did, but how well you did even if most people now are probably spending hours a day over-killing their bosses in parse parties to climb in % and dilute it for everyone else who didn't.

Biggest problem with act is that it doesn't bracket players when considering parse %.. based on ilvl I know wow at least does with its act.. That means someone who enters savage late, even if they did their job perfectly and with perfect uptime will get a stunted parse when the pool for their class is full of full bis savage geared players who have been pumping the same boss every day for the last month. That new player who just got their clear will never have a % as good as the bis players even if they performed exactly the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I don't know maybe your parse is better then mine but I have tried and failed on literally every attempt to even join new static parties because they are all looking for act. I've never had a problem with parser stuff in theory but ACT specifically is a very flawed program that is being over relied on and used in ways that aren't actually representative of anything people are looking for. It has grown rampant in this community and it shouldn't not just out of principle but out of all the flaws it has to not be relied on.

---

Most people that are recruiting based on logs aren't just looking at your damage. It's definitely part of the equation, but logs give a lot of additional insight around things like mitigation usage, positioning, consistency, etc. If you want, I could review some of your logs and try to figure out why you may be getting denied frequently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

People in this community use act almost as a social credit system, defining your quality as a person and a player and often just the percentage. Not 'if' you cleared or how much you did, but how well you did even if most people now are probably spending hours a day over-killing their bosses in parse parties to climb in % and dilute it for everyone else who didn't.

---

You're not wrong. Players put too much esteem in parse % in this game. There are a lot of absolutely terrible players out there that grind for 99's, but the day new content drops will absolutely trap and obstruct every party they join.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

snip

---

Sigh. Why is it always the same? Just a cursory glance at the data provided by that "very flawed program" has shown me that:

- you often break combo.
- you often weave as many as six abilities between two GCDs. The maximum amount you should be doing is two, btw.
- you are not using your offensive cooldowns as soon as they are available and are losing quite a bit of uses.
- you are using your personal and group mitigation abilities very infrequently and let them sit unused for most of the fight (two TBN uses over an entire fight level of bad, btw).
- you are very rarely landing five GCDs in Blood Weapon. Sometimes even doing as little as three.
- your general GCD uptime is around 80-85%. Which means that you are simply doing nothing for about 1/5th of the fight.

I'm sorry, but your parses aren't grey because of "act being flawed" or bad gear. They are entirely the result of your poor play and simply not pressing buttons. And even if we were to ignore the damage part, your tanking is very far from stellar as well. I'm not surprised that a static leader would refuse you. For someone who wants to get rid of "stowaways" in high-end content you have definitely been skipping on that humble pie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I don't know maybe your parse is better then mine but I have tried and failed on literally every attempt to even join new static parties because they are all looking for act. I've never had a problem with parser stuff in theory but ACT specifically is a very flawed program that is being over relied on and used in ways that aren't actually representative of anything people are looking for. It has grown rampant in this community and it shouldn't not just out of principle but out of all the flaws it has to not be relied on.

You say I could make a party but if one has problems joining any statics because of act what is the likelihood anyone would stay or respect a party you made either. People in this community use act almost as a social credit system, defining your quality as a person and a player and often just the percentage. Not 'if' you cleared or how much you did, but how well you did even if most people now are probably spending hours a day over-killing their bosses in parse parties to climb in % and dilute it for everyone else who didn't.

---

If you make a static, you are the static leader. You can enforce the no gating by ACT.

Statics that want ACT want it for a few reasons:

1. Shows desire to self-improve. Those willing to self-improve on their own are more likely to accept feedback and work towards correcting them. The grey parser who is willing to take feedback and put forth the work to improve to top parsing would be more welcome in a static than the middle of the road parser who thinks they know everything and the only reason they aren't parsing higher is other people, even if the logs disagree. At least if everything else is equal and those were my only options, I'd give the grey parser a shot over the mid-parser. But that's me. Other statics may be different.

2. It's a tool. A good static will talk with those with less than perfect parses and take a look at the gear used to figure out the reason behind it. And any good static should be able to tell you what you could do to improve int the range they would want.

You could phrase it something like this: "I know I'm not a good fit for your static now, but what are 3 things I should look to improve to make my parses closer to where I would need to be to join?" That way they have to find your three weakest points and you don't get overwhelmed with all the mistakes and can focus on the ones making the biggest impact.

Any static interview should be you interviewing them just as much as they are you. Personality and goals are also a major part of how well a static does. Any static leader not willing to give you any answers should be a static you run from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I don't know maybe your parse is better then mine but I have tried and failed on literally every attempt to even join new static parties because they are all looking for act. I've never had a problem with parser stuff in theory but ACT specifically is a very flawed program that is being over relied on and used in ways that aren't actually representative of anything people are looking for. It has grown rampant in this community and it shouldn't not just out of principle but out of all the flaws it has to not be relied on.

You say I could make a party but if one has problems joining any statics because of act what is the likelihood anyone would stay or respect a party you made either. People in this community use act almost as a social credit system, defining your quality as a person and a player and often just the percentage. Not 'if' you cleared or how much you did, but how well you did even if most people now are probably spending hours a day over-killing their bosses in parse parties to climb in % and dilute it for everyone else who didn't.

Biggest problem with act is that it doesn't bracket players when considering parse %.. based on ilvl I know wow at least does with its act.. That means someone who enters savage late, even if they did their job perfectly and with perfect uptime will get a stunted parse when the pool for their class is full of full bis savage geared players who have been pumping the same boss every day for the last month. That new player who just got their clear will never have a % as good as the bis players even if they performed exactly the same.

---

Quite frankly: I dont know how my parse looks like. I'm sure it could be better.

I'm raiding with a group of friends who care more about having fun together (we usually try to go as blind as possible into Savage fights and only look at guides when we get fed up with mechanics) than about parses or group-meta. Some of these people I've met during ARR while clearing Leviathan EX and added the nice (and semi-competent) ones to a linkshell for that purpose. Over the years, said linkshell grew, by now most of us are also in the same FC - and in a very casual static.
It might take a while to build a community like that, but that is most certainly an option - if one can look past raw numbers.

You claim that you have trouble finding groups because no one does that [=looking past numbers] - but from your post it sounds a lot like that "no one" includes" you. You want the gates to just close behind you, to set a bar you know you can reach right now - and then raise it to make others jump higher.
ACT is not your problem, the way you play is your problem - you got an analysis what you can do to improve, ACT just makes that easier to figure out. So... improve? Thats what you wanted from everyone else, isnt it? To only join parties once they've imrpoved enough to pass your standards?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

Quite frankly: I dont know how my parse looks like. I'm sure it could be better.

I'm raiding with a group of friends who care more about having fun together (we usually try to go as blind as possible into Savage fights and only look at guides when we get fed up with mechanics) than about parses or group-meta. Some of these people I've met during ARR while clearing Leviathan EX and added the nice (and semi-competent) ones to a linkshell for that purpose. Over the years, said linkshell grew, by now most of us are also in the same FC - and in a very casual static.
It might take a while to build a community like that, but that is most certainly an option - if one can look past raw numbers.

You claim that you have trouble finding groups because no one does that [=looking past numbers] - but from your post it sounds a lot like that "no one" includes" you. You want the gates to just close behind you, to set a bar you know you can reach right now - and then raise it to make others jump higher.
ACT is not your problem, the way you play is your problem - you got an analysis what you can do to improve, ACT just makes that easier to figure out. So... improve? Thats what you wanted from everyone else, isnt it? To only join parties once they've imrpoved enough to pass your standards?

---

((I had this whole thing and it was erased from my clipboard rip, synopsis time))
I don't care if the door closes in front of me. Honestly I quit raiding already because of this nonsense I'm just saying what I believe could be improved. The game wasn't designed for a near nonexistent human error. at least in the sense of class performance. I'm not saying people should perform poorly, every fight I bring my best and my best has improved with practice. But I also don't find myself not performing well enough to complete any of the content I do where I am. Parties go in two ways and correct me if its different for you. Parties either clear enrage, or die on the second mechanic. Rarely have I seen a party that makes it to the end of the fight with no deaths or mistakes and gets hard stuck on the enrage check. What I do see is sweaty perfectionists cutting it real close to telegraphs and mechanics they don't entirely know just to keep that virtual parse % up and risking themselves and the party. I may not be the best dark knight, or even a 'good' dark knight. but I'm not a bad player. and maybe when you start seeing me in parties where we 'actually' get to enrage we can talk about my efficiency but first you gotta talk to all the people screwing up basic mechanics or stowing away in parties they aren't cleared for. Thus the topic of this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azuri

Sigh. Why is it always the same? Just a cursory glance at the data provided by that "very flawed program" has shown me that:

- you often break combo.
- you often weave as many as six abilities between two GCDs. The maximum amount you should be doing is two, btw.
- you are not using your offensive cooldowns as soon as they are available and are losing quite a bit of uses.
- you are using your personal and group mitigation abilities very infrequently and let them sit unused for most of the fight (two TBN uses over an entire fight level of bad, btw).
- you are very rarely landing five GCDs in Blood Weapon. Sometimes even doing as little as three.
- your general GCD uptime is around 80-85%. Which means that you are simply doing nothing for about 1/5th of the fight.

I'm sorry, but your parses aren't grey because of "act being flawed" or bad gear. They are entirely the result of your poor play and simply not pressing buttons. And even if we were to ignore the damage part, your tanking is very far from stellar as well. I'm not surprised that a static leader would refuse you. For someone who wants to get rid of "stowaways" in high-end content you have definitely been skipping on that humble pie.

---

You still can't deny that doesn't consider gear shouldn't be used as the end all be all for someones grade. Even if you did do things perfectly your result would sill be stunted by someone who also did everything AND had fortune of a fully gear set.
and as I said to Vidu. This isn't a game that built around absolute perfection in class performance it helps but if it was as necessary as mechanical performance things like act or cactbot would be allowed. don't believe me? see how my % was as a healer in the last expansion's savages. Still cleared most of them. The difference of a clear and pass then wasn't me improving as much as it was people, including me, not screwing up the mechanics. Y'know, the thing yoship actually intends for people to prioritize first.
The subject of this thread was talking about people entering parties not knowing how mechanics work, not under peforming in their class. I have personally rarely seen a party that can actually get through the fight without messing up that doesn't also clear. Maybe people should wait until they actually get to the damage check enrage before chanting about up-time and efficiency. Maybe if people weren't so caught up in third party social credit score people could actually focus on where they are standing? the thing that actually matters.

Are you actually complaining about players not being perfect in a prog party?

Last time I checked humans make mistakes and while I have learned the mechanics for Endwalker EX2 fight and have cleared it multiple times, I've yet to get through it without dying or getting a vuln stack. Doesn't mean I'm a stowaway if I join a prog party, It just means I'm not ready for a farm party with strangers as I mostly run with a static who uses discord for voice coordination.

ACT is a tool. Any static that solely uses the parse number and doesn't look into or ask about the why's isn't a static you want to join anyway. Even if you were someone who is playing at the top level of their class.

Players who properly use ACT are factoring gear into their interpretation of a person's parse. They're talking with the player to ask why a drop in the ABC - maybe their computer decided to minimize their game to inform about some update for a random program. And many statics will also look for multiple parses to gain a feeling of if the person is overall improving or their trends. And to remove the one bad run from consideration as we all have those days where we just play bad. If the one parse mentioned earlier was such a fun, any static worth their salt would know and either disregard or ask depending on number of parses available. If that run was an outlier, you're likely to remember the reason why.

Did you know that intentionally dying to mechanics in a prog party is not abnormal. Players will bait mechanics. While progging Endwalker Ex1, we had an early pull as we had someone seeing how close he could be could get and went one pixel too far. We had a melee DPS told to not worry about dying while seeing where the safe melee spot for a mechanic is. That that is part of progging. So the BLM standing in an AoE could be seeing how many casts he has until he sees to aetherial manipulate to a buddy and found out that number. So what you may see and think his a mistake may be that player learning the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

You still can't deny that doesn't consider gear shouldn't be used as the end all be all for someones grade. Even if you did do things perfectly your result would sill be stunted by someone who also did everything AND had fortune of a fully gear set.

---

You can hit the upper 25% in crafted gear, sometimes even fairly late into the tier. A moderately skilled player shouldn't have too much trouble hitting at least 50%, regardless of gear. I have never seen a fight where being geared and playing well would land you in the lower 10%, ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

and as I said to Vidu. This isn't a game that built around absolute perfection in class performance it helps but if it was as necessary as mechanical performance things like act or cactbot would be allowed. don't believe me? see how my % was as a healer in the last expansion's savages. Still cleared most of them. The difference of a clear and pass then wasn't me improving as much as it was people, including me, not screwing up the mechanics.

---

You cleared many, many months after the tier launched, probably while overgeared. Raiding right now isn't just about "not screwing up mechanics". The DPS check in the P4S doorboss is 48.3k, recruiting anyone that you aren't confident can contribute their fair share to meet that check is absolutely foolish. Not to mention, it's not that hard to find someone that can play their job AND do mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

The subject of this thread was talking about people entering parties not knowing how mechanics work, not under peforming in their class. I have personally rarely seen a party that can actually get through the fight without messing up that doesn't also clear. Maybe people should wait until they actually get to the damage check enrage before chanting about up-time and efficiency. Maybe if people weren't so caught up in third party social credit score people could actually focus on where they are standing? the thing that actually matters.

---

It isn't fair to criticize others for trapping you when you're playing at a level that effectively REQUIRES other people to overperform to clear the fight with you, be it in healing or damage.
You absolutely will not be able to pass something like the P4S door-boss at your current level of play without significant gearing. It doesn't matter how well you are pressing WASD for easy mechanics if you aren't contributing a fair share of damage / mitigation; Low damage is usually a sign of someone who is having to spend too much of their focus executing mechanics anyway, so I have significant doubts about your supposed consistency. EDIT: Yeah, you take vulns from avoidable mechanics in 4/4 of your EX1 kills, and 8/10 of your EX2 kills. You're not being honest with yourself, or anyone here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

You still can't deny that doesn't consider gear shouldn't be used as the end all be all for someones grade. Even if you did do things perfectly your result would sill be stunted by someone who also did everything AND had fortune of a fully gear set.
and as I said to Vidu. This isn't a game that built around absolute perfection in class performance it helps but if it was as necessary as mechanical performance things like act or cactbot would be allowed. don't believe me? see how my % was as a healer in the last expansion's savages. Still cleared most of them. The difference of a clear and pass then wasn't me improving as much as it was people, including me, not screwing up the mechanics. Y'know, the thing yoship actually intends for people to prioritize first.
The subject of this thread was talking about people entering parties not knowing how mechanics work, not under peforming in their class. I have personally rarely seen a party that can actually get through the fight without messing up that doesn't also clear. Maybe people should wait until they actually get to the damage check enrage before chanting about up-time and efficiency. Maybe if people weren't so caught up in third party social credit score people could actually focus on where they are standing? the thing that actually matters.

---

You completely missed his point. You aren't getting denied entry into groups because of "parse culture" or "better geared players playing identically to you". If better-geared players played identically to you, their parses would be bad too.

The trick with mechanics is that doing them right is the absolute bare minimum as far as being good at Savage is concerned. You don't become good just by not wiping the raid. You become good by not wiping the raid AND doing your rotation right AND maintaining as close to 100% uptime as possible. You can stand in as many right places as your little heart desires. It won't matter when the boss enrages at 28% because your DPS don't know their rotations and your healers spent their downtime spam-casting Cure 1 and Physick on the current tank. You still wipe and you still don't get loot.

Also, in the case of fights like P3S where there are still new mechanics to prog very late in the fight, the best thing you can do for your group is to work on optimizing the early sections while you're still progging. It's not like you have anything better to do while redoing the parts you already know for the 10th or 11th time, and it'll go a long way toward being able to beat the enrage when the time comes. Plus it'll help you not have bad parses in the end ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleImp

It isn't fair to criticize others for trapping you when you're playing at a level that effectively REQUIRES other people to overperform to clear the fight with you, be it in healing or damage.
You absolutely will not be able to pass something like the P4S door-boss at your current level of play without significant gearing. It doesn't matter how well you are pressing WASD for easy mechanics if you aren't contributing a fair share of damage / mitigation; Low damage is usually a sign of someone who is having to spend too much of their focus executing mechanics anyway, so I have significant doubts about your supposed consistency. EDIT: Yeah, you take vulns from avoidable mechanics in 4/4 of your EX1 kills, and 8/10 of your EX2 kills. You're not being honest with yourself, or anyone here.

---

Well I cant speak for P4S's door check because honestly most of the community from what I've seen can't even reach P1S's enrage without wiping. Isn't that what I said? ACT culture is people so focused on pumping their parse number that they don't even focus on the mechanics happening right in front of them. You talk about becoming better and more efficient to clear the door boss damage check like most players can even dream of getting that far from what I've seen. I never said I didn't need to improve and it feels like none of you read what I said. But there is no point in telling me to sharpen my skills in my class when none of it matters when you wipe 3 minutes into the fight every time. I've done P1S like, 90 times, I've seen enrage about 5 times does my uptime and rotation mastery contribute to that? This isn't like wow.. they sweat over parses and efficiency but at least they can actually get to the point where that matters in their raids more often then not...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

Well I cant speak for P4S's door check because honestly most of the community from what I've seen can't even reach P1S's enrage without wiping. Isn't that what I said? ACT culture is people so focused on pumping their parse number that they don't even focus on the mechanics happening right in front of them.

---

I guarantee people aren't wiping you in P1S because of 'ACT culture'. Anyone who is motivated enough to care about parsing has been past that fight since week 1, probably day 1. It's significantly more likely that you're in a party with 7 people similar to yourself, and experiencing what happens when there's a critical mass of inconsistency and inexperience in one party. Carrying a party isn't always about doing the most damage, or clutch healing either; Sometimes it's a matter of leadership and figuring out how to explain and organize strategies and mechanics in a way that makes the group successful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

You talk about becoming better and more efficient to clear the door boss damage check like most players can even dream of getting that far from what I've seen. I never said I didn't need to improve and it feels like none of you read what I said. But there is no point in telling me to sharpen my skills in my class when none of it matters when you wipe 3 minutes into the fight every time.

---

You blamed "ACT culture" as the reason you are being denied entry to statics. We explained to you that it's much more nuanced than that, and that you're being rejected because your logs give the overall impression of an inconsistent player who has failed to grasp core concepts (weaving, mitigation) 90 levels into the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I've done P1S like, 90 times, I've seen enrage about 5 times does my uptime and rotation mastery contribute to that? This isn't like wow.. they sweat over parses and efficiency but at least they can actually get to the point where that matters in their raids more often then not...

---

Getting hardstuck on p1s for that long is highly abnormal. Most groups, even casual, tend to clear it in 1-2 lockouts; It's likely there's something inherently flawed about the way you're approaching clearing the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

Well I cant speak for P4S's door check because honestly most of the community from what I've seen can't even reach P1S's enrage without wiping. Isn't that what I said? ACT culture is people so focused on pumping their parse number that they don't even focus on the mechanics happening right in front of them. You talk about becoming better and more efficient to clear the door boss damage check like most players can even dream of getting that far from what I've seen. I never said I didn't need to improve and it feels like none of you read what I said. But there is no point in telling me to sharpen my skills in my class when none of it matters when you wipe 3 minutes into the fight every time. I've done P1S like, 90 times, I've seen enrage about 5 times does my uptime and rotation mastery contribute to that? This isn't like wow.. they sweat over parses and efficiency but at least they can actually get to the point where that matters in their raids more often then not...

---

Those who care about their parse number care about doing mechanics. They aren't standing in AoE's because they want to get their DPS up. They are either making a mistake or they are learning the fight and are actively looking to see how long AoE's are there for and what the limit is on the range of AoE's that have no tells.

You do 0 DPS when dead. You can cause wipes if you are dead at the wrong time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleImp

I guarantee people aren't wiping you in P1S because of 'ACT culture'. Anyone who is motivated enough to care about parsing has been past that fight since week 1, probably day 1. It's significantly more likely that you're in a party with 7 people similar to yourself, and experiencing what happens when there's a critical mass of inconsistency and inexperience in one party. Carrying a party isn't always about doing the most damage, or clutch healing either; Sometimes it's a matter of leadership and figuring out how to explain and organize strategies and mechanics in a way that makes the group successful.

You blamed "ACT culture" as the reason you are being denied entry to statics. We explained to you that it's much more nuanced than that, and that you're being rejected because your logs give the overall impression of an inconsistent player who has failed to grasp core concepts (weaving, mitigation) 90 levels into the game.

Getting hardstuck on p1s for that long is highly abnormal. Most groups, even casual, tend to clear it in 1-2 lockouts; It's likely there's something inherently flawed about the way you're approaching clearing the fight.

---

I think you hit the nail on the head with the whole "critical mass of inconsistency and inexperience in one party" thing. The farther into the tier we get, the more good and decent players will have already cleared the fight and be hiding in Duty Complete parties instead of carrying people like OP to clears. Rumor has it there's a "chain sac" strat out there for P1S Fourfold now where the plan is literally to just have all 4 red chain players wall it and res them afterward... I am SO glad I cleared P1S before people decided that was a good idea, because now I can get my reclears every week with 7 fellow good players instead of having to put up with that. Nobody in today's party knew who "joonbob" is or how his strat works but we recleared in 2 pulls regardless.

OP won't have that fortune though. Statics won't take him because his logs are bad and the P1S PF community is losing more and more good players by the day as they clear and move on to P2S, leaving him stuck with people who can't do P1S mechanics right and fellow gray parsers. His best bet is to fix his own play, starting with the stuff Azuri listed, then get some more enrage pulls in, THEN apply to a static. If he gets his GCD uptime to 95%+ and starts mitigating and weaving properly and gets some logs like that on the record, then he'll have a much better case when he applies to the static and says "I can totally handle P1S, I'm being held back by PF bads"

Well, that and people label others who care about damage part of the ACT culture when there are people who don't even use ACT and just focus on resources like the balance to optimize rotation. The issue is that no matter how good someone is individually with mechanics and damage, if the group is full of inexperienced players or players that just fail mechanics consistently, it isn't going to matter.

I can tell you after swapping from warrior to reaper, I've had nights where I'm sitting there depressed, having used all tinctures, zero damage downs, full uptime, with the only sin being missing a gluttony window and being one second off on arcane circle, and you still wipe to p1s enrage because you have a black mage taking damage downs every other mechanic and a tank not going far enough out with chain of purgation. And then there is p2s where people can seem to execute everything right, but then it comes to overflow 3 and the party just dies due to not being on top of positioning after the first set of arrows go off.

With that kind of thing going on, can you really blame people wanting to use ACT just to make sure they aren't part of the issue? People are spending hours trying to clear and if they happen to make the brave sacrifice of running a static, they might even be giving up that ideal PUG clear window at the start of the week to try and get others through content.

And for the record I think the majority of woes with savage would go away if they changed the way they did the loot so that having people along who cleared doesn't reduce the reward. It's supposed to be a gating mechanic, but really it just enforces this day one "gotta clear this Tuesday or else" attitude. It generates the toxicity that lurks in the savage community probably just as much, if not more so, than bad players.

I'm also going to add that people who are new to savage and have challenges are not "bad players". The kind of people I'm referring to are those that have not even mastered the basics of their own rotations by level 90. The only thing people learn in savage is the mechanics of the fight and how to modify their rotation to deal with phases. It's not the place to learn basic gun breaker rotation or dark knight burst phases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azuri

Sigh. Why is it always the same? Just a cursory glance at the data provided by that "very flawed program" has shown me that:

- you often break combo.
- you often weave as many as six abilities between two GCDs. The maximum amount you should be doing is two, btw.
- you are not using your offensive cooldowns as soon as they are available and are losing quite a bit of uses.
- you are using your personal and group mitigation abilities very infrequently and let them sit unused for most of the fight (two TBN uses over an entire fight level of bad, btw).
- you are very rarely landing five GCDs in Blood Weapon. Sometimes even doing as little as three.
- your general GCD uptime is around 80-85%. Which means that you are simply doing nothing for about 1/5th of the fight.

I'm sorry, but your parses aren't grey because of "act being flawed" or bad gear. They are entirely the result of your poor play and simply not pressing buttons. And even if we were to ignore the damage part, your tanking is very far from stellar as well. I'm not surprised that a static leader would refuse you. For someone who wants to get rid of "stowaways" in high-end content you have definitely been skipping on that humble pie.

---

This is the second type of thing I've seen in the last couple of days. People blame the tool, but that exact same tool points out exactly what the issue is. People think they are playing perfectly, it's not them, and then when the actual data comes to light, the reason is pretty obvious. This isn't a knock, but rather proves the point that the tool can be extremely useful in helping you improve, which is the main reason a lot of those use it. This is one of the strongest reasons why SE should allow parsers, and keep the enforcement of harassing people. It wouldn't change the status quo of what happens now, but it would at least allow people to realize that maybe they aren't playing as well as they think they are.