Buff DNC damage pls (sad dnc main)

Hate playing high apm/cpm class like bard/mch due to carpal tunnel sydrome i love my dnc but been kicked/refused by parties cause want bard/mch in their party and this upsets me as dnc main :(

They didn't give us a direct buff. Instead, they buffed our pets. The RPR and DRG pets in particular are stronger now (RPR thanks to changing our abilities into weaponskills).

It can be a fun class but the problem is that it brings a lot of party buff and therefore they cut down its DPS
I got one to 80 by the end of ShB and the dps was really not crazy imo, I don’t know how it is now

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

They didn't give us a direct buff. Instead, they buffed our pets..

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LMAO! I NEARLY CHOKED ON MY TEA!

Chad high damage BRD vs virgin low damage DNC

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Originally Posted by Raikai

LMAO! I NEARLY CHOKED ON MY TEA!

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Will you join the fray when you finish it?

So time to main bard thanks for ruining my dnc experince by getting us kicked/replaced for end game

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Originally Posted by Raikai

LMAO! I NEARLY CHOKED ON MY TEA!

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It honestly wasn't even funny...

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

It honestly wasn't even funny.. (to me).

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Fixed that for you.

A payback for hurting brd since ShB...

I don't think Dancer needs a pot buff just some guarantee procs on some moves
they reduce your chances of getting procs by linking you single targeting to your aoes
But when I weave feather i shoot up dps passing the other two
Yes they have buffs but that doesn't really excuses the dmg
Not asking for everyone to be 100% more like 1 or 2 combo endings have a feather proc or after every dance you get one
but then again the skill is lately for most is so low, it makes it hard to tell if this is a me thing or a dmg thing

Also DNC stole BRD spot in shb before BRD stole it back just I guess gonna have to take this L this expansion till further buff

Look on the bright side you won't have to buy new gear.

Well i am very comfortable maining dancer and STILL will play the class but being refused in joining PF for extremes/trials/farming end game contents.....

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Originally Posted by Vatom

I don't think Dancer needs a pot buff just some guarantee procs on some moves
they reduce your chances of getting procs by linking you single targeting to your aoes
But when I weave feather i shoot up dps passing the other two
Yes they have buffs but that doesn't really excuses the dmg
Not asking for everyone to be 100% more like 1 or 2 combo endings have a feather proc or after every dance you get one
but then again the skill is lately for most is so low, it makes it hard to tell if this is a me thing or a dmg thing

Also DNC stole BRD spot in shb before BRD stole it back just I guess gonna have to take this L this expansion till further buff

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Nah, DNC definitely needs some sort of potency buff. BRD is roughly 8% ahead of it right now, and it doesn’t give nearly enough rDPS to warrant being so low. It didn’t in ShB either.

In ShB, DNC wasn’t more potent than BRD in terms of personal damage or rDPS. A lot of BRD mains ditched the job after the ShB changes because they preferred SB BRD or they disliked how ShB had no support to it in favor of making DNC the “support king”; while others flocked to DNC in a combination of “shiny new toy” and a lot of healer mains actually swapped to DNC because they were tired of the healers getting the shaft.

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Originally Posted by Drakeos

Well i am very comfortable maining dancer and STILL will play the class but being refused in joining PF for extremes/trials/farming end game contents.....

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hmmm.. never been kicked from a party yet so not sure why you would be in all seriousness

Isn't the dnc the lowest now for dps. Dnc needs a boost in dps or give it more support skills. Like a haste dance, a dance that regens mp, and a dance that regens hp.

I think DNC should get a cheeky buff… like the previous comment on this said, maybe add in another support skill?

Also I never see anyone use improv it feels like it takes too long to get 4 stacks.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

They didn't give us a direct buff. Instead, they buffed our pets. The RPR and DRG pets in particular are stronger now (RPR thanks to changing our abilities into weaponskills).

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Monk the neglected pet... :(

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Isn't the dnc the lowest now for dps. Dnc needs a boost in dps or give it more support skills. Like a haste dance, a dance that regens mp, and a dance that regens hp.

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I’d take more damage over support that is lackluster. Haste messes too much with some jobs’ rotations; a lot don’t like it, including DNC. Improvisation already has a regen; they don’t need two. And MP management isn’t a mechanic for healers unless you’re a WHM. So it’s not that great in utility anymore.

It feels like EW was a downgrade for DNC. There seems to be more "downtime" now where you wait for procs far more often. I appreciate the new relative versatility compared to SHB where it's easier to go back and forth between AOE and ST, but that doesn't make up for the increased amount of time I spend hitting the same two abilities. This is honestly the root of DNC's comparative lack of DPS. Changing potencies would just be a bandaid and wouldn't fix the aforementioned issue.

The simplest thing I can think of to change is with the "Enhanced Flourish" trait you get at 86. Either make it 30 seconds instead of 60, or give it 2 charges.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Nah, DNC definitely needs some sort of potency buff. BRD is roughly 8% ahead of it right now, and it doesn’t give nearly enough rDPS to warrant being so low. It didn’t in ShB either.

In ShB, DNC wasn’t more potent than BRD in terms of personal damage or rDPS. A lot of BRD mains ditched the job after the ShB changes because they preferred SB BRD or they disliked how ShB had no support to it in favor of making DNC the “support king”; while others flocked to DNC in a combination of “shiny new toy” and a lot of healer mains actually swapped to DNC because they were tired of the healers getting the shaft.

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That's some interesting... "revision" of history, shall we call it?

Bard was just flat out worse in ShB. Plenty of people liked BRD but felt forced off it.

And this sort of leapfrogging is going to continue because when SE introduced DNC, they didn't give DNC its own niche. So BRD will either be a worse DNC, or DNC will be a worse BRD.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

That's some interesting... "revision" of history, shall we call it?

Bard was just flat out worse in ShB. Plenty of people liked BRD but felt forced off it.

And this sort of leapfrogging is going to continue because when SE introduced DNC, they didn't give DNC its own niche. So BRD will either be a worse DNC, or DNC will be a worse BRD.

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Hasn’t this been the ranged dps role since Heavensward? I may be remembering wrong since it was a while back. Caster MCH/BRD come out, one does better than the other, SE decides to start a buff war where they were constantly adjusting potencies between the two for balancing (and failed every time from what I remember lol). Stormblood, I honestly cannot remember for some reason lol but I’m sure it was a still a case of one just being better than the other.

Shadowbringers, Dancer comes out, steals most of Bard’s support, brought healing skills that no other ranged had an answer to, becomes the ‘better’ ranged dps option. Bards give up on their job, Machinists disappear from existence.

Come Endwalker, Bard has stolen Technical Step from Dancer except 1% stronger, Dancers are now left with less personal damage and less unique things to bring to the raids. Machinists continue to be intangible (I’ve honestly seen like 4 this whole expansion lol)

Since then SE been caught in a desperate tug of war with itself to keep the ranged role balance between its own jobs and the other roles; it wouldn’t be the first time 4X Bard raids were a thing lol. The only difference is that they don’t have the resources to make as many adjustments mid-expansion, I guess because they have so much additional jobs to worry about now.

I predict that with the next expansion, Dancers will see a significant increase in their personal dps. Their support kits will be removed (both Steps are now just pure damage), Curing Waltz is now 120s cd. Machinist gets a permanent 5% damage buff to one party member, a 5% damage buff for the party every 120 seconds and it can restore HP to itself and nearby party members. It has slightly less dps to compensate (but still outdoes Dancer in rDPS). Dancers give up on their job, Bards cease to exist.

Come the next expansion…just swap the class names around lol. The ranged dps role is just an infinite game of musical chairs where everyone is too scared to sit down in case the chair is taken from under them

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Originally Posted by Connor

Hasn’t this been the ranged dps role since Heavensward? -snip-

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MCH vs other phys ranged at least has one distinction now:

MCH is the selfish "pure dps" while dancer-bard is the buffer/"rDPS dps".

So in short, yes, you're pretty much right - but I don't think SE will ever give MCH raid buffs like that. They're comfortable in their own niche. It's DNC and BRD that are problematic and need distinct identities.

The other thing I wish to note is that it's not that SE doesn't have the resources to do mid-patch balancing. They actively choose not to. This is also something that dates back to heavensward when statics would get upset at having chosen a comp, but then feel they would have to change in the middle of a raid patch. (Yeah, also sucks for WHMs that predicted the EW changes would dumpster them... then got dumpstered... and now are locked into dumpster mode till 6.1 at the earliest)

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Originally Posted by Drakeos

Hate playing high apm/cpm class like bard/mch due to carpal tunnel sydrome i love my dnc but been kicked/refused by parties cause want bard/mch in their party and this upsets me as dnc main :(

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I have literally never ever seen a single PF group that favored a MCH over a DNC much less exclude jobs, wtf kind of server are you playing in?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Nah, DNC definitely needs some sort of potency buff. BRD is roughly 8% ahead of it right now, and it doesn’t give nearly enough rDPS to warrant being so low. It didn’t in ShB either.

In ShB, DNC wasn’t more potent than BRD in terms of personal damage or rDPS. A lot of BRD mains ditched the job after the ShB changes because they preferred SB BRD or they disliked how ShB had no support to it in favor of making DNC the “support king”; while others flocked to DNC in a combination of “shiny new toy” and a lot of healer mains actually swapped to DNC because they were tired of the healers getting the shaft.

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8% I think would be solved with more feathers procs not with pot buffs
if there is that much discrepancy in the damage its the kit in its self not just pots
This is why I say more feathers and better procs, back in ShB you could get procs separate for each weaponskill
I don't see that in the new dancer but I also think they should have a heavier ally buff
this way working with bard then fight with them for dominance
But overall BrD should do more dmg just how much more is the question

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Originally Posted by Vatom

8% I think would be solved with more feathers procs not with pot buffs
if there is that much discrepancy in the damage its the kit in its self not just pots
This is why I say more feathers and better procs, back in ShB you could get procs separate for each weaponskill
I don't see that in the new dancer but I also think they should have a heavier ally buff
this way working with bard then fight with them for dominance
But overall BrD should do more dmg just how much more is the question

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Actually, I don't want more feathers. Procs are a fun idea in general, but they take up brain bandwidth (for the wrong reasons), similar to DOTs. You want the job to be smooth, not marred with RNG. RNG is what made the dancer unappealing in the past, you either did nice damage or none at all, and not thanks to your skill as a player.

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Originally Posted by Drakeos

Hate playing high apm/cpm class like bard/mch due to carpal tunnel sydrome i love my dnc but been kicked/refused by parties cause want bard/mch in their party and this upsets me as dnc main :(

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Because they don't understand that dancers are a support job, and that role does not explicitly exist in this game.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

8% I think would be solved with more feathers procs not with pot buffs
if there is that much discrepancy in the damage its the kit in its self not just pots
This is why I say more feathers and better procs, back in ShB you could get procs separate for each weaponskill
I don't see that in the new dancer but I also think they should have a heavier ally buff
this way working with bard then fight with them for dominance
But overall BrD should do more dmg just how much more is the question

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I don’t think you can solve damage discrepancies like what exist between BRD and DNC via RNG procs. Because then you have to hope your proc rate is high enough to close the gap, versus potency buffs are more of a guaranteed increase.

Back in ShB, only your “Flourished” procs could generate feathers. You had a 50% chance to proc Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall off of Cascade and Fountain, respectfully. Likewise, there was a 50% chance to proc Rising Windmill and Bloodshower from Windmill and Bladeshower, respectively. Feathers only proc’d off of your procs—never off of your base combos, so it wasn’t any weaponskill would grant you a feather, and your procs were specific to the base combo button.

There was also only a 50% chance. Fan Dance III was a 50% chance off of Fan Dance I and II. So you can see how RNGesus could decide to spite you easily. Increasing items to give procs still won’t guarantee to close a damage gap. Just like increasing the number of available procs won’t guarantee it. At the end of the day, they remain a coin flip.

If you want to guarantee closing any gap, you adjust the potency of DNC’s base combo or other skills that don’t rely on RNGesus being nice. Otherwise, you’re still risking it falling behind should a given DNC have a bad run. And believe me, they exist.

The problem is and I'm going to be that dissenting voice....

People pushed really really hard to make DNC fall more into their supporting skills and they should know full well what that meant for them going forward.

They took away its rather interesting niche of being a true skirmisher, DNC had to get in the enemies face to do their step finishes and flourish rotations which made them a somewhat risky, but rewarding job that flit in to burst and then flit back out to do their standard rotation, this was afforded before but taken away because the loudest voices begged for the DNC to be more supportive, to stay back, to focus on buffing their allies more

SE gave those people exactly what they asked for and anyone that has played this game for any length of time knows

the dev team does not like supports being powerful because the games' balance begins to revolve around them.

I wasn't here for HW but I was for ARR and and I remember how necessary things like Stone skin were, you simply couldn't do certain turns of coil without it, the game was being balanced around that ability, so SE did away with it, as they did protect, shellga, cleric stance and many other things that would deem as "we have to balance exclusively around this"

So ever since, supports don't get to be strong, they get to support and not much else.

DNC had a massive identity crisis in ShB, you could see part of a vision that SE wanted for them (a skirmisher dps) that was bogged down by this whole "but dancers must support" and now they've learned further into that and what is DNC now?

A cheerleader and not much else and that's because people were pushing too hard for something that they should know throughout the past....

SE will take away or they will purposely under tune because they don't want the game to revolve around it.

BRD funnily enough for the first time in a long long time, actually escaped their own personal identity crisis, they actually play....well, like a bard, a tempo paced job that bolsters through song, exactly as it was always supposed to be and the reason BRD is doing so well despite also being penalized for having supportive abilities but DNC isn't?

BRD spreads their deficit across the entire group so it's much easier to pick up the slack, DNC is entirely reliant on their partner being a DPS machine and doing double the work to make up for their shortfall.

Now you have to ask yourself an important question when it comes to DNC, what exactly do you want SE to buff on it?

If they buff their RDPS, they will likely lose more personal dps as further tax, remember SE does not want a supportive job to take over the game like SCHs did back in ARR.
If they buff their DPS, they will lose more RDPS, they'll likely come back to a more comfortable personal spot, but not be as strong supporting their team

Personally, I'd just do away with Dance Partner entirely and go all in with Step Burst Windows but that's just me.

I would like to see the new abilities be general procs not just tied to cooldowns
i played dancer for the proc gameplay, and this would count as a buff if the chance was substantial enough, but be more fun than just potency boosts

well in a interview with yoshi p that was posted on discord earlier, yoshi p mentioned that he thinks Dancers dps is too low, so hopefully that means we'll see a buff in the not too distant future.

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Originally Posted by Drakeos

Hate playing high apm/cpm class like bard/mch due to carpal tunnel sydrome i love my dnc but been kicked/refused by parties cause want bard/mch in their party and this upsets me as dnc main :(

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Huh? My current main (not my posting character) is a Dancer Main, I can keep up with everyone in Deeps, and my partywide buffs and off heals and shields have saved the group from wipes more than once. the Fact I was able to tank a boss long enough for the healers to rezz the party on Nerducla this is everything you need to know about Dancer. Oh and we had a BLM in that run and I was still higher Aggro.

Not to say I wouldn't want a slight buff on damage, but if you got kicked for playing dancer, than they are dumb, because Dancer is one of the strongest jobs in the game for utility, and the DPS if you do it right is more than sufficient. (note yes Bard and Machinist have high output, but only in single target, and the burst window of Dancer is much stronger because it includes group buffs, while bard has ok group buffs that are lack luster at best. And Machinist is selfish DPS, and the weakest Selfish DPS in the game. I would rather a Samurai or Black Mage))

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Originally Posted by SherlottaEryut

I think DNC should get a cheeky buff… like the previous comment on this said, maybe add in another support skill?

Also I never see anyone use improv it feels like it takes too long to get 4 stacks.

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I use it in specific moments, but those usually only last long enough for 1 or 2 stacks.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Huh? My current main (not my posting character) is a Dancer Main, I can keep up with everyone in Deeps, and my partywide buffs and off heals and shields have saved the group from wipes more than once. the Fact I was able to tank a boss long enough for the healers to rezz the party on Nerducla this is everything you need to know about Dancer. Oh and we had a BLM in that run and I was still higher Aggro.

Not to say I wouldn't want a slight buff on damage, but if you got kicked for playing dancer, than they are dumb, because Dancer is one of the strongest jobs in the game for utility, and the DPS if you do it right is more than sufficient. (note yes Bard and Machinist have high output, but only in single target, and the burst window of Dancer is much stronger because it includes group buffs, while bard has ok group buffs that are lack luster at best. And Machinist is selfish DPS, and the weakest Selfish DPS in the game. I would rather a Samurai or Black Mage))

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Uh.....
no?

Dancer is like 400 dps behind the second lowest job on personal dps. Bard's party buffs give equivalent, or even more depending on the group composition, raid dps to dancer's buffs, while doing 10-15% more personal dps. Dancer utility absolutely blows. All we have is curing waltz, which while good on paper, is not very useful because healer's are so powerful at lvl 90 and overheal everything with oGCDs.

"But only in single target" as if aoe damage has ever mattered in ffxiv? Encounter design philosophy is 99.9% single target big baddy 2minute windows. "Burst" is a useless statistic. It doesn't matter if dancer does more damage than bard or machinist in the first 15 seconds of the 2minute window, as it does remarkably less damage over the next 105 seconds of the two minute window. Enrage timers do not care if you do all your damage quickly, or over the course of the fight. If you don't do enough damage, you still die, and dancer toes the line.

Why are you getting kicked? It could be your rotation is off. I was able to clear savage with dnc and nin in party.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Huh? My current main (not my posting character) is a Dancer Main, I can keep up with everyone in Deeps, and my partywide buffs and off heals and shields have saved the group from wipes more than once. the Fact I was able to tank a boss long enough for the healers to rezz the party on Nerducla this is everything you need to know about Dancer. Oh and we had a BLM in that run and I was still higher Aggro.

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I’m really not trying to be mean here—but if you were “keeping up with the other DPS” in a party, those DPS were just bad. DNC is not a job that is competitive with any other DPS in terms of personal damage in a regular setting. Never has been. If the top DPS in a party is a DNC, then there are a lot of concerns about the other DPS in there.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

They didn't give us a direct buff. Instead, they buffed our pets. The RPR and DRG pets in particular are stronger now (RPR thanks to changing our abilities into weaponskills).

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This is an uncomfortable...but not at all untrue way of mindset when playing DNC.

Just be thankful there's no leashes.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you want to guarantee closing any gap, you adjust the potency of DNC’s base combo or other skills that don’t rely on RNGesus being nice. Otherwise, you’re still risking it falling behind should a given DNC have a bad run. And believe me, they exist.

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I don't want them to totally close the game I think its fine having low dps but to not have anything in return is foolish like we are going with drk back in HW to StB but that is another fourm
I think proc will allow you to make windows and have sustainable dps, not big boi reaper dps, sustainable one of the reasons range physical was so stand back in the day, play off of that
2 100pot is bigger then 1 200pot its the potential that Im going for not I bench 540 potency

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Actually, I don't want more feathers. Procs are a fun idea in general, but they take up brain bandwidth (for the wrong reasons), similar to DOTs. You want the job to be smooth, not marred with RNG. RNG is what made the dancer unappealing in the past, you either did nice damage or none at all, and not thanks to your skill as a player.

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Do you want buffs with rng dmg or just dmg? You really can't have both and expect SE to be cool with it.

Brain bandwidth... oh I forgot there are people who didn't like to play the piano but I dont think a dot had much brain power, don't sell yourself short.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

The problem is and I'm going to be that dissenting voice....

People pushed really really hard to make DNC fall more into their supporting skills and they should know full well what that meant for them going forward.

They took away its rather interesting niche of being a true skirmisher, DNC had to get in the enemies face to do their step finishes and flourish rotations which made them a somewhat risky, but rewarding job that flit in to burst and then flit back out to do their standard rotation, this was afforded before but taken away because the loudest voices begged for the DNC to be more supportive, to stay back, to focus on buffing their allies more

SE gave those people exactly what they asked for and anyone that has played this game for any length of time knows

the dev team does not like supports being powerful because the games' balance begins to revolve around them.

I wasn't here for HW but I was for ARR and and I remember how necessary things like Stone skin were, you simply couldn't do certain turns of coil without it, the game was being balanced around that ability, so SE did away with it, as they did protect, shellga, cleric stance and many other things that would deem as "we have to balance exclusively around this"

So ever since, supports don't get to be strong, they get to support and not much else.
.

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Couldn't say it better myself

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Originally Posted by Vatom

I don't want them to totally close the game I think its fine having low dps but to not have anything in return is foolish like we are going with drk back in HW to StB but that is another fourm
I think proc will allow you to make windows and have sustainable dps, not big boi reaper dps, sustainable one of the reasons range physical was so stand back in the day, play off of that
2 100pot is bigger then 1 200pot its the potential that Im going for not I bench 540 potency

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Pardon if I’m misunderstanding, but you seem to be under the impression I’m asking for DNC to deal damage equivalent to a RPR? If I’m misreading your post, I apologize—but that isn’t what I’m saying at all. If anything, I actually believe RPR should be nerfed.

RNG damage increases don’t have sustain. They aren’t consistent, so you can’t have consistent damage—instead you just have spikes. SB BRD was very much like this: you could have a god-tier run of a fight one pull, dealing more damage than some of the melee DPS jobs—and then the next run you get hardly no procs during your Raging Strikes window, and just want to pitch yourself off the arena when your opener has no 3-stack Pitch Perfects and no Barraged Refulgent Arrow. And while I adored SB BRD, I will admit that the RNG was incredibly frustrating at times. DNC is much the same way—though a decent opener also being reliant on your Finishes Direct Hit Criting because the discrepancy between a vanilla Tech Finish and a D.Hit Crit one was fairly staggering and equally as bad back in ShB.

The difference between SB BRD and DNC was that BRD’s RNG was able to be manipulated. DNC doesn’t have that, so it has no mitigation against poor runs. You kind of just have to suck it up. Nothing you can do can force RNG to work in your favor the way snapshotting multiple Crit buffs on your DoTs could SB BRD.

Base combo potency increases is better in the long run for more consistent damage. You can’t have consistent damage increases buffing RNG abilities due to the very nature of them being RNG.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Pardon if I’m misunderstanding, but you seem to be under the impression I’m asking for DNC to deal damage equivalent to a RPR? If I’m misreading your post, I apologize—but that isn’t what I’m saying at all. If anything, I actually believe RPR should be nerfed.

RNG damage increases don’t have sustain. They aren’t consistent, so you can’t have consistent damage—instead you just have spikes. SB BRD was very much like this: you could have a god-tier run of a fight one pull, dealing more damage than some of the melee DPS jobs—and then the next run you get hardly no procs during your Raging Strikes window, and just want to pitch yourself off the arena when your opener has no 3-stack Pitch Perfects and no Barraged Refulgent Arrow. And while I adored SB BRD, I will admit that the RNG was incredibly frustrating at times. DNC is much the same way—though a decent opener also being reliant on your Finishes Direct Hit Criting because the discrepancy between a vanilla Tech Finish and a D.Hit Crit one was fairly staggering and equally as bad back in ShB.

The difference between SB BRD and DNC was that BRD’s RNG was able to be manipulated. DNC doesn’t have that, so it has no mitigation against poor runs. You kind of just have to suck it up. Nothing you can do can force RNG to work in your favor the way snapshotting multiple Crit buffs on your DoTs could SB BRD.

Base combo potency increases is better in the long run for more consistent damage. You can’t have consistent damage increases buffing RNG abilities due to the very nature of them being RNG.

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There is something we can agree on Rpr getting nerfed

True RNG damage isn't sustain, that too I agree but I was simply asking to limited RNG with a guarantee at the end of a combo to no waste the effort
To be a more passive form of manipulation when until third GcD (Fountain fall) feathers are a dice roll along with cascade giving you high chance but FF giving you that 1 always
Now that I've articulate it it seems foolish not to see Haha. Your still going to need a increase in pots and to go any other route would simple change DNC as a whole
That is not my goal here, I'll retract my statement for now and look for a better solution

Though I've come to and understanding I still don't believe slapping potency on everything will save the game nor this class but I leave it at that as a start and revise.