Does Summoner get better?

I know I'm only level 67, but this summoner rework isn't really gelling with me.


There doesn't seem to be much strategy to it. Just press what is available; use all three summons when available.


Am I missing something? Does it get better at level cap?

It doesn't really get better. It stays the same basic thing until 86 and then you get 1 extra button to press during primal summons and that's it.

86 makes the summons significantly more unique, to the point where I hate syncing down, but it doesn't change the structure of the class. It's entirely about picking the right summon for the right movement requirements.

86 is where it gets way better

I would hardly say that at 86 it gets better. All 86 does is let you use your "Death Flare" button with the other three filler primals and that's it.

Sure, they look incredibly flashy and each one works a little different than the other (one is a long GCD cast, one is an insta-GCD cast and the last one is an oGCD), but if you already feel like there's not much to do with SMN and all you do is press what's available, 86 or 90 is not gonna change that.

It gets better simply because it can't get any worse.

Could do with 1 or 2 more attack buttons that do something different for each summon, then it might be an awesome job. As things stand, BLM is a far more interesting caster than RDM and SMN.

Not really no. Even if it got buffed I wouldn't recommend it cause it's problems are fundamentally tied to the mechanical direction they took with the rework. It gets boring far too quickly to be considered good, even at 90.

86 is the sweet spot peeps. 90 is where your summon attack isn't trying to run up to the mook.

I'd save Aetherflow for Titan so you can constantly weave attacks for constant damage.

At 86 is when it starts feeling like the class is trying to go somewhere, and then it'll just stop there and never feel finished or satisfying. So, really no, it doesn't get better.

They need to give its level 86 summon phase distinctions to earlier levels, for sure (same with the primal animations), but naturally they leave that as the new unlocks for now, since they gotta have something for new expansion leveling hype for existing summoners to strive for, and they had no other new ideas to put in that level range if they were to put all the new stuff in the pre-established kit

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Sure, they look incredibly flashy and each one works a little different than the other (one is a long GCD cast, one is an insta-GCD cast and the last one is an oGCD), but if you already feel like there's not much to do with SMN and all you do is press what's available, 86 or 90 is not gonna change that.

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You still cast each one, don't you? Or do you ignore some of them? I don't really know the rotation since I'm not near level cap yet.


It all just seems "press what is available".

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Originally Posted by Snowdove

You still cast each one, don't you? Or do you ignore some of them? I don't really know the rotation since I'm not near level cap yet.


It all just seems "press what is available".

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Press what’s available unless downtime happens. Then try to squeeze in all three avatars and the Ruin IV charge while dumping Ruin III, and either Ifrit or Titan GCDs. Basically it’s only half interesting because you’re not allowed to play nice with downtime.

A funny thing, once you pass from Lv79 to 80 you actually get a bit weaker. One you unlock Phoenix you lose a Deathflare per minute.
Pinnacle job design, that spicy chicken.

Their intention was to make SMN more like a summoner, but they have ironically created even more of a ruin mage than it's previous iterations

Pretty much, only now you Ruins are apple-, lemon- or strawberry-flavoured.

Oh c'mon, Ifrit Ruin does feel pretty damn different from the others. It's a solid base, it's just rather bare-bones compared to other max level jobs. Feels like it's missing an expansion or two's elaboration.

I have never felt bored before when playing Summoner, now I do. And no, you still just need to go through all of them as most of the times your Bahamut or Phoenix will be on cd and its better to go through the summones than not. As on what you choose in order is for me solely based on how much mobility you need at that certain moment.

The biggest difference compared to the prev SMN to me is that now I am forced to use swiftcast whereas before it was a choice, so it is most likely that I will not have it for the ressing, that would be a good raid utility. But sorry team, I need to do dmg quick on Ifrit so no res for ya (unless it is a must)

I am starting to change to dancer. I am loving it.

I will start leveling another DPS soon, just in case to have something for raiding. Right after I reach 90 with my pali.

I guess I don't get this need for 567 buttons on my job for it to be fun. Fewer, more impactful, buttons is more fun to me than a whole bunch of buttons that are less important. Not sure if it is epeen flexing "I have more keybinds, therefore I am better." I think my only real issue with the current summoner, apart from the need for a damage buff, is that it feels a bit disjointed. The legacy ruin IV and aetherflow almost feel tacked on, rather than a fluid part of the whole. Also, phoenix needs some sort of change - you shouldn't be adding an ability that is literally a dps loss as you level up.

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Originally Posted by VorpalSpork

I guess I don't get this need for 567 buttons on my job for it to be fun. Fewer, more impactful, buttons is more fun to me than a whole bunch of buttons that are less important.

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ARR SMN did more with less buttons than this rework has. The impact of setting up a perfect Bane spread alone was inherently more satisfying than any of the new avatars. It just wasn't visually interesting, and I'm not faulting anyone for that opinion. Just don't fault us for seeing the total design and calling it a failure even within the metrics you consider important. Because we -want- meaningful buttons. The way SE has done it has stripped out not only Summoner's prior iterations, not only failed its identity as pet job, not only rehashed multiple micro-phases from other jobs instead of injecting anything new, but all of those, while also failing to even respect the basic identity of all mages in any MMO ever: Casting spells.

I don't have any issue with people that don't like how it plays, or preferred the previous incarnation. I absolutely prefer the current version and would disagree (subjectively) that bane spreading felt better than the current version, but it's subjective. But, too many of the comments amount to simply, "Not enough buttons." If you don't like what the current buttons do, that's very different. And, yeah, I expect there are a fair few who basically lost their job due to the total rework, and that would feel bad.

I have mixed opinions on SMN. On one hand, it's totally brain dead so it's perfect for me. On the other, it feels dangerously close to the healer dps rotation and countless people have stated their issues with how boring that can be.

The other thing that doesn't sit right with me is the disconnect between how flashy your spells are and their actual function. Your spammable gcds look like other jobs' 1 minute cooldowns, your egis which appear every 20 seconds are a spectacle worthy of a 3 minute cooldown, yet you're doing mediocre damage the entire time. It loses the impact when you cycle back to it for the 10th time and the boss still isn't dead.

It's like if every dragoon gcd was a nastrond, or reaper was in enshroud 100% of the time. No matter how amazing a skill looks, it becomes boring if you're given too much of it and it feels like you didn't earn it. When every gcd is amazing, no gcd is amazing, proper pacing is very important.

This goes for the casting tempo too. When so much of it is instacast skills, you lose the feeling of what's actually special about instant cast spells, it just becomes the new normal. You lose the satisfaction of having a well rounded variety of skills and choosing the right spell for the right moment. Like red mage's dualcast, you're given way more mobility than you actually need, and it gives people ammo to justify slapping you with the phys ranged label, it is a trap.

All I'm saying is that the ruin 3 spam and 'downtime' in the old summoner rotation served a purpose. You need the lows in order to better appreciate the highs, when you're constantly popping off it wraps around back to being boring again.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

reaper was in enshroud 100% of the time.

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Oh man this forum would crash with all the threads calling for Reaper nerfs on why they are putting out more damage then the boss if this was the case.

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Originally Posted by Snowdove

I know I'm only level 67, but this summoner rework isn't really gelling with me.


There doesn't seem to be much strategy to it. Just press what is available; use all three summons when available.


Am I missing something? Does it get better at level cap?

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As others have said, the job gets more interesting at 86. The game play is tactical, if you wish to maximize your DPS. However, if you do not care about small DPS losses and just hit whatever comes up, the job is relatively easy to play. As I have said in other threads, SMN is a job that has a lot of choices of spells to use at any given time and the trick to mastering the job is utilizing self-control to not smash everything as it comes up and using forethought when choosing the order you summon your elemental phases.

My experience with SMN is simple.
I only leveled SMN through SCH and my only experience was... the role quest.
And oh mama, it felt like I already scrapped the bottom with the role quest alone. I tried it again thinking I missed something.

Usually I enjoy leveling jobs to discover/rediscover what they do through level. Except Ninja and its mudras, I learn them once again every expansions. But I feel like there was nothing to learn on SMN. Once you know the buttons, the job actually just plays itself.
To put it simple, I do agree that it feels like a Reapeer in enshroud or if MCH gameplay was just jumping from one hypercharge to another hypercharge phase.
It's better than previous SMN for sure but how can you play without the lv86 ability? It's as if BRD songs had no effect and would just replace the visual effect on straight shot.
Also the no cast, even than long cast for Garuda phase is calling to be paired with Swiftcast.

Visually, it's satisfying. Each phases is good the problem is that there is nothing beyond these phases except aetherflow that consist of 3 abilities that will be spent in the party buff window.
MCH works because it has the various tools to keep an eye on, SMN just doesn't have that.
It's a good base that needs to be expanded upon but not only it's even less complete than MCH but don't forget they did not expanded on MCH/DRK reworks.

Also, thanks Larryzaur for dismissing the concerns under a rug.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

As others have said, the job gets more interesting at 86. The game play is tactical, if you wish to maximize your DPS. However, if you do not care about small DPS losses and just hit whatever comes up, the job is relatively easy to play. As I have said in other threads, SMN is a job that has a lot of choices of spells to use at any given time and the trick to mastering the job is utilizing self-control to not smash everything as it comes up and using forethought when choosing the order you summon your elemental phases.

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Please do not lie to to her. There are no choices within this job. You use ifrit when you can get into melee range, Garuda when the boss is not moving and titan for burst/movement

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Please do not lie to to her. There are no choices within this job. You use ifrit when you can get into melee range, Garuda when the boss is not moving and titan for burst/movement

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Thank you for describing some of the primary choices that every job in FFXIV has to make in terms of when to use what ability. This brings Summoner in line with the rest of the lineup of jobs in this game as opposed to the weird dot juggling/ruin stacking. Good riddance to all that.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Thank you for describing some of the primary choices that every job in FFXIV has to make in terms of when to use what ability. This brings Summoner in line with the rest of the lineup of jobs in this game as opposed to the weird dot juggling/ruin stacking. Good riddance to all that.

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It has nothing to do with choices when the game itself dictates you what to do. Or do you want to use your dash into the next aoe around the boss?

Having the choice is for example:

- Adjusting on MNK in downtimes with SSS, FS, chakra or thunderclap
- Adjusting on BLM via smartcasts, leylines-placement, dashes, when to reset your DoT
- Adjusting SAMs base-rotation
- Adjusting on any class with a bunch of proccs for DPS gains.
- etc...

SMN has become a no-brainer class. It´s whole choice is "i shouldn´t use ifrit, when i can´t get into melee range". And that´s more a law than a choice. The other 2 are locked behind "DPS-priority" anyway. So far SMN doesn´t have to care about anything but some boss-mechanics, where you´re able to preposition yourself easily like BRD / MCH / DNC. Imo even such RDPS classes have to take care about more than SMN. (Procc, Dots, Gauge...)

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It has nothing to do with choices when the game itself dictates you what to do. Or do you want to use your dash into the next aoe around the boss?

Having the choice is for example:

- Adjusting on MNK in downtimes with SSS, FS, chakra or thunderclap
- Adjusting on BLM via smartcasts, leylines-placement, dashes, when to reset your DoT
- Adjusting SAMs base-rotation
- Adjusting on any class with a bunch of proccs for DPS gains.
- etc...

SMN has become a no-brainer class. It´s whole choice is "i shouldn´t use ifrit, when i can´t get into melee range". And that´s more a law than a choice. The other 2 are locked behind "DPS-priority" anyway. So far SMN doesn´t have to care about anything but some boss-mechanics, where you´re able to preposition yourself easily like BRD / MCH / DNC. Imo even such RDPS classes have to take care about more than SMN. (Procc, Dots, Gauge...)

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Don't acknowledge the troll. It isn't clever

The only thing smn is good for is blinding your party members and blocking their view with giant primal summons.

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Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

The only thing smn is good for is blinding your party members and blocking their view with giant primal summons.

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That's not the SMN's fault that's client side /petsize all small or medium. I love summoner.

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Originally Posted by DES_VII

That's not the SMN's fault that's client side /petsize all small or medium. I love summoner.

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I wasn’t aware petsize changed the level 90 titan/ifrit/Garuda I was under the impression it didn’t. And it does nothing for the fact that they are casting the equivalent of rdm lb3 over and over through the fight.

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Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

I wasn’t aware petsize changed the level 90 titan/ifrit/Garuda I was under the impression it didn’t. And it does nothing for the fact that they are casting the equivalent of rdm lb3 over and over through the fight.

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you just need to use the right command. /Petsize all Small will make em tiny tiny and if you set "other" and "party" battle affects to limited, im pretty certain the explosion isnt displayed.

I can't really see them toning it down, and i don't really notice it visually imparing the fight if the egis are on small. Buut thats just me i guess.

Petsize does change the primals, but not the Enkindle II animations. So while they will not be seeing titan's ass be quite so fat, they will still be seeing a full scale Earthen Fury.

Ifrit's summon is especially bad since the blast of fire conflicts with enemies that use fire based telegraphs (like fireballs around their body) to indicate what mechanic they're using. It's really hard to see visually.

Also for the first pandemonium boss, just try to see which side the chains are going to hit with a SMN in the party and graphics turned on.

We shouldn't have to limit animations to play this game.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

you just need to use the right command. /Petsize all Small will make em tiny tiny and if you set "other" and "party" battle affects to limited, im pretty certain the explosion isnt displayed.

I can't really see them toning it down, and i don't really notice it visually imparing the fight if the egis are on small. Buut thats just me i guess.

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I prefer not to turn of battle effects, it’s just as much as a hindrance as the blinding smn bs

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

Ifrit's summon is especially bad since the blast of fire conflicts with enemies that use fire based telegraphs (like fireballs around their body) to indicate what mechanic they're using. It's really hard to see visually.

Also for the first pandemonium boss, just try to see which side the chains are going to hit with a SMN in the party and graphics turned on.

We shouldn't have to limit animations to play this game.

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That’s basically my issue with smn effects, the colors they use all but make the games telegraphed aoe marks invisible, I haven’t ever had an issue with that with any other job, including rdm lb3

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

ARR SMN did more with less buttons than this rework has. The impact of setting up a perfect Bane spread alone was inherently more satisfying than any of the new avatars. It just wasn't visually interesting, and I'm not faulting anyone for that opinion. Just don't fault us for seeing the total design and calling it a failure even within the metrics you consider important. Because we -want- meaningful buttons. The way SE has done it has stripped out not only Summoner's prior iterations, not only failed its identity as pet job, not only rehashed multiple micro-phases from other jobs instead of injecting anything new, but all of those, while also failing to even respect the basic identity of all mages in any MMO ever: Casting spells.

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Thank you for putting it so perfectly. This rework was a failure across the board and needs to be scrapped. They can bring it back as a new job when they have better ideas for how to implement it but for now they REALLY need to bring back the summoner we have had since 2.0.

On topic, no. 86 gets you one more spell that is either an instant cast that you weave in, a cast that works as an AoE damage over time, or...a melee attack in two parts. It gives you a wee bit more to do but doesn't particularly flesh out the job in any meaningful way.