Reward Incentives for Doing Content Properly.

Yes, i know unreal content exists. This is an aside from that.

I was thinking on how many new players have little to no reason to go back to an old fights ex primals and other types of older raid content with min ilvl/no echo.

To emulate the older difficulty and complete it serves almost no purpose other than "i can say i did it".

My recommendation is to add new mounts/aesthetics/rewards to older fights for doing them on the hardest difficulty.

I believe it will be healthy for the game to properly use all of its end game content instead of allowing people to undersize all the rewards with level 80 characters.

So yes while the content does exist and you can tech do it, you won't see many party finders for it and it will take forever for most players to get a party together even if they do have friends, let alone new players who want to experience it and don't have the same connections.

It's wasted potential esp. with the great influx of new players who missed the boat.

The game should do better to reward players who do older content on the highest difficulty.

They kinda already did that with BLU and the older 8 man raids

some fights give more faded copies of music rolls when done on min ilvl.

This game's fanbase has a love of this idea - of "doing content properly". Personally I think it's a bit of a mistaken folly: what, exactly, would be gained from making people do old content without any kind of stat boost? Older players would quickly get tired of it if they don't get their rewards instantly - hell I still remember back when I first joined this game in Heavensward trying to get any kind of Extreme Trial group for the basic primals was nearly impossible. Players would pitch fits if even one member of the group didn't know what to do flawlessly and rage quit over a single wipe because everyone was tired of doing them - and the mounts, back then, were still desired for people! There were incentives to do that content. At least now when matching up for older content like raids there's a much more relaxed attitude because several expansions out there's a lot less worry that it'll be a heavy slog. People explain the mechanics to new people instead of yelling at them that they should've read the wikis and memorized the youtube videos, even when it's something like the later omega fights or even eden raids, and we just blitz it down: and sometimes there's some accidents as players learn mechanics they're unfamiliar with. But there is, in general, a lot less stress and anger over it.

And as for newer players? I don't feel like this really incentivizes them to do older content either. There are always systems and mechanics that ask you to do old stuff. Whether it's an achievement, your relic weapon grinds, or simply realizing you have that old quest chain for coil you never did and maybe now you want to see what that's all about. This game re-uses mechanics and concepts often enough that there's nothing really vital about, say, doing the Nael Deus Darnus fight 100% as it was originally intended (if that's even possible given how mechanics have shifted over the years) compared to blasting through it with one or two friends so you can experience the visual and audio of the fight. If you care about the experience and mechanics as they were: it's always an option - or you could even do one of the later game fights that just reuse the same mechanics as they often do. There's nothing to really be gained by trying to force people to do it as it was on release.

Not everything needs a unique reward. If the sense of achievement for doing something for the sake of doing it isn't good enough for you: then why are you doing it? We should stop encouraging devs to make boring, unfun, slogs gatekeep the coolest rewards. It seems pretty dire to me when half of a game's userbase are doing things they hate, and actively complain about it, solely because they want an item.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

Not everything needs a unique reward. If the sense of achievement for doing something for the sake of doing it isn't good enough for you: then why are you doing it? We should stop encouraging devs to make boring, unfun, slogs gatekeep the coolest rewards. It seems pretty dire to me when half of a game's userbase are doing things they hate, and actively complain about it, solely because they want an item.

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i like to host pfs or join discord for im ilv /no echo runs of old savage and extremes for the fun of it, but the truth is theyre not very popular even if many people enjoy it.

its not about wanting prizes for doing things, its just to try to get more people to try it out, especially newer players who maybe wouldve enjoyed doing it when it was relevant.

Even giving like, just an achievement with maybe a title for clearing all savgae fights of an expansion MINE would make pugging these a lot easier.

This is essentially what Faux Hollows is. Its that older content, upscaled and retuned to our max level, and given new rewards. The difficulty in Faux Hollows should be roughly equal to the difficulty of the fights when they were originally released so new players can experience it as it was when originally released.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

This game's fanbase has a love...

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Why are you describing doing end game raiding as unfun boring slogs?

That's like, your opinion,man. Not the opinion of people who never even done the fight before.

I wasn't talking about relic grinds, only end game raids. Please don't lump them together.

You clearly don't have fun with endgame raiding then why do it?

You don't need the rewards, you want them.

According to you the best rewards are gatekeeped by stuff you find boring, so you basically are admitting to reward incentives working on you.

People need a goal to get them excited to do a fight, a fight that has no reward will significantly lower the population of people doing it making it hard to find a party.

Imagine if ultimate's, daily roulettes and current savage raid tiers gave you nothing.

Does that put it into perspective?

Your arguments literally flies in the face of what the devs are already doing with unreal content, i am just saying...expand it to all content not just temporary content.

It's completely optional, just like ultimate's and unreal primals.

Not all content is for everyone. But with no tangible reward you can show off to other players, they will have little reason to even make the party finder....after all...why not just undersize the mounts with a few level 80's?

Its about raid population and making the fights more accessible to newer players.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

This is essentially what Faux Hollows is. Its that older content, upscaled and retuned to our max level, and given new rewards. The difficulty in Faux Hollows should be roughly equal to the difficulty of the fights when they were originally released so new players can experience it as it was when originally released.

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The first line in my post mentioned unreals, my idea is just expand this mentality to all end game raid fights.

To create... as Joshua Strife Hayes would put it:" an evergreen balance".

There is a lot of wasted potential by not properly utilizing all the end game raids for players who never have done it before by adding proper goals.

Yoshi p's biggest mistake in terms of raiding was adding undersize parties to the game and allowing mounts to drop in them.

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Originally Posted by Doru_Nintendan

They kinda already did that with BLU and the older 8 man raids

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Not everyone wants to play blue mage, but point taken.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Why are you describing doing end game raiding as unfun boring slogs?

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Because that's exactly what trying to force people to play "the proper way" is. If you want to do the content in a specific way, go for it. But trying to devise a system that predates on people's obsessive need for rewards to make them play the things you want them to play the way you want them to play it is pretty bad. One of the largest complaints people have with, say, the resistance weapon grind is that every step of the way you have to do the content synced - unlike the older relic weapons which, several expansions on - hit a point where you have large content grinds to do that are made easier by being able to do it unsynced. There is a mountain of difference between wanting to do content, as a challenge or whatever, and feeling forced to do it. People tend to respond negatively to the latter.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

People need a goal to get them excited to do a fight, a fight that has no reward will significantly lower the population of people doing it making it hard to find a party.

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If the only reason someone's doing content is because of an item reward then they're not actually interested in doing the content, which defeats the entire purpose of trying to reinvigorate interest in doing the old content like this in the first place: you aren't drumming up any interest or appreciation of it, just making people jump through hoops to get their new mount or whatever. It sucks that it's hard for people who have a niche interest like running old content in this specific way to find people also interested in that: but that's the problem with wanting to do weird novelty things like that. You might as well give people achievements for beating every raid in an all lalafell party, I certainly see lots of lalafell exclusive party finders out there, I'm sure they'd appreciate having some incentive for more lalafell to exist.

As for the dramatic what if ultimate raids didn't give loot: People enjoy Unreal trials for the most part and they're barely rewarding, and every time I see them come up there's no end of lists of people wanting to see X or Y trial made into an unreal - or even raids and dungeons given the unreal treatment. But I have literally never seen anyone say a single positive thing about the Faux Hollows stuff attached to them. Plenty of people dig that content and don't give a single flip about the alleged rewards for it.

The issue with this proposal in the is just that it's trying to force activity in a niche that the community very clearly doesn't have that much interest in. People would rather see content brought up, rather than having to push themselves down to do it - a problem largely brought about by how most classes feel painfully slow and unfinished when you sync down to low levels.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

Because that's exactly what trying to force people to play "the proper way" is. If you want to do the content in a specific way, go for it. But trying to devise a system that predates on people's obsessive need for rewards to make them play the things you want them to play the way you want them to play it is pretty bad. One of the largest complaints people have with, say, the resistance weapon grind is that every step of the way you have to do the content synced - unlike the older relic weapons which, several expansions on - hit a point where you have large content grinds to do that are made easier by being able to do it unsynced. There is a mountain of difference between wanting to do content, as a challenge or whatever, and feeling forced to do it. People tend to respond negatively to the latter.



If the only reason someone's doing content is because of an item reward then they're not actually interested in doing the content, which defeats the entire purpose of trying to reinvigorate interest in doing the old content like this in the first place: you aren't drumming up any interest or appreciation of it, just making people jump through hoops to get their new mount or whatever. It sucks that it's hard for people who have a niche interest like running old content in this specific way to find people also interested in that: but that's the problem with wanting to do weird novelty things like that. You might as well give people achievements for beating every raid in an all lalafell party, I certainly see lots of lalafell exclusive party finders out there, I'm sure they'd appreciate having some incentive for mo...

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The rewards are optional, you don't need them. You want them. Any end game raid scene is only healthy because they have a system of incentives.

The goal is get players to be motivated to play so other players get the experience as you did, they find fun after they start doing it.

The hardest hump to get over is motivating players with goals in the first place.

After all why do roulettes if you find them boring? Yet roulettes exist to serve players who never done the content before.

Pretty standard stuff.

If you find content boring just stop doing it. No reason to stop other players from having goals for doing optional difficulties.

The flaw in your thinking is when you say it's boring to do, yet it wouldn't be for other people who haven't even tried the fight.

The goal is important part of getting people in the mindset of even trying it AT ALL.

The fun comes after the goal has been set, not because of the goal.

If everyone can just do content once and never have to go back, then the population of the raid scene lowers and gatekeeps newer players out things they wouldn't know they would have fun with.

If newer players see more party finders for this content, then they are more likely to engage with it.

Extreme primals are midcore content that will also act as a learning curve for players increasing the raid scene giving players more long term goals to keep them around, which is healthy for the game.

If you get bored of doing something no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do it.

If other players already accomplished their goals in undersized party, then there is no reason to start party finders you are just damaging the games player economy.

It would be the same if roulettes had no rewards, then que would just take forever.

The primary argument that you keep making is, that because you are already sick of the content and find it a "Slog", no one new should ever have that fresh experience with a healthy raiding community motivated by long term goals.

Which is baffling.

/sarcasm
Those unreal trials sure do take a long time and don't have anything enjoyable happening in them.

I guess people can't fight neo X death/kefka/phantom train/etc. the same way on release because others are sick of it!

You might as well remove all hard content from the game amirite? It takes too long.
/sarcasm

There is No reason to stop others from having their cake and eating it too because you find it a slog/boring.

You damage the games raid scene and player economy by not adding long term goals to these fights and trivializing rewards.

I am not asking for them to bring back the garbage 100 totem system for each individual primal with very low drop rate for mount itself.

Just have 1 mount drop for every clear at min ilvl or create unreal versions of every fight simultaneously for level cap with exclusive mounts locked behind it.

No temp b.s. for unreals.

Each time a suggestion like this pops up, I'm wondering: If you want to do the content "properly", why do you need an extra reward to do so?

My assumption would be that one would want to do this properly because thats more fun for them - why isnt that enough? Why do you need an extra carrot?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Each time a suggestion like this pops up, I'm wondering: If you want to do the content "properly", why do you need an extra reward to do so?

My assumption would be that one would want to do this properly because thats more fun for them - why isnt that enough? Why do you need an extra carrot?

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Because people needs goals(like mounts) to motivate them to try. They know nothing of the fight when they see the mount, but they still want it.

The fun comes as they are attempting it with no foreknowledge of whether they would enjoy it or not.

You are basing your logic in a hypothetical fantasy where players don't like a fight because they never got the motivation to try for the first time.

Whether you unsync them or run them synced with min-iLvl chosen, both are the proper way to do the fights. It's not improper to run through the fights unsynced.

The game should offer an increased reward for doing the harder of the options. But only because it's harder, not because it's the "proper" way to do the fight.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Whether you unsync them or run them synced with min-iLvl chosen, both are the proper way to do the fights. It's not improper to run through the fights unsynced.

The game should offer an increased reward for doing the harder of the options. But only because it's harder, not because it's the "proper" way to do the fight.

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I think when people get hung up on words like "properly" they miss the point entirely.

Not having to do the mechanics of the fight and never having to contend with them means you don't do the fight. You just skip it.

I want players to be incentivized to not skip over the fight and do it the hard way where you actually have to learn things.

Such as you would when the fight is new. Phase skipping should be for pros.

What kind of rewards and reward structure did you have in mind?
I think any "older content but not trivialized" ideas live or die by their imagined reward structures.

You mentioned a mount, would that be a new mount? An alternate way of getting an existing mount?
Would you add one to every boss? Or just ones that would be best to not skip? (and how would "best" be decided?)

Or are you thinking more of a Faux Hollows style shop so not every piece of old content needs a new reward made?
If that's the case, and each piece of content doesn't have a unique reward, people will just grind whichever raid (or whatever) is easiest/shortest.

People already go back and do min iLVL for fun.
You're talking about introducing a system of rewards to encourage "not skipping."
Please elaborate on your ideas for the reward structure you'd use to incentivise people.
I'm legit interested.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I was thinking on how many new players have little to no reason to go back to an old fights ex primals and other types of older raid content with min ilvl/no echo.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I want players to be incentivized to not skip over the fight and do it the hard way where you actually have to learn things.

Such as you would when the fight is new. Phase skipping should be for pros.

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Wait, is the purpose of this system to incentives people to go back and do older content in a harder form? Or to prevent them from "skipping" fights?
I may be misreading you but it seems like you're somehow advocating for both?

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Originally Posted by ItMe

What kind of rewards and reward structure did you have in mind?
I think any "older content but not trivialized" ideas live or die by their imagined reward structures.

You mentioned a mount, would that be a new mount? An alternate way of getting an existing mount?
Would you add one to every boss? Or just ones that would be best to not skip? (and how would "best" be decided?)

Or are you thinking more of a Faux Hollows style shop so not every piece of old content needs a new reward made?
If that's the case, and each piece of content doesn't have a unique reward, people will just grind whichever raid (or whatever) is easiest/shortest.

People already go back and do min iLVL for fun.
You're talking about introducing a system of rewards to encourage "not skipping."
Please elaborate on your ideas for the reward structure you'd use to incentivise people.
I'm legit interested.







Wait, is the purpose of this system to incentives people to go back and do older content in a harder form? Or to prevent them from "skipping" fights?
I may be misreading you but it seems like you're somehow advocating for both?

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There are many directions to take this idea, if i come up with a better reward structure i would just make a new thread.

Generally speaking i just want a version of the fight reward you for having to learn and do all the mechanics where only pro players at the fight can phase skip mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Each time a suggestion like this pops up, I'm wondering: If you want to do the content "properly", why do you need an extra reward to do so?

My assumption would be that one would want to do this properly because thats more fun for them - why isnt that enough? Why do you need an extra carrot?

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He doesn't want the reward for himself, he says maybe it would draw more people to it. Let's say he has 3 friends interested, but you can't do it unless you're 8 ; maybe the 4 missing would join the party if rewards were there.
He wants a carrot to exist to attract enough players to form parties, some of them would be there for the fight, some for the loot.

There is an issue with this however and Dewslam pointed it out : different goals, different approach. The 4 people that are just there for the loot will be way more impatient than the ones there for the fight, and start become toxic / leave if it takes too long to their taste. And I can assure you there are way too many people in this game, in my opinion, that don't give it 3 tries.

But if we're just discussing the idea : why not also grant the moogle tomestones on old raid with condition of no echo and min ilvl ? With a bonus for first timers ? Moogle tomestone farm events worked quite well to populate old content, otherwise it wouldn't have had 3 iterations, and the rewards are not crazy jealousy inducing, just a nice to have, that could be what OP is looking for.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

But if we're just discussing the idea : why not also grant the moogle tomestones on old raid with condition of no echo and min ilvl ? With a bonus for first timers ? Moogle tomestone farm events worked quite well to populate old content, otherwise it wouldn't have had 3 iterations, and the rewards are not crazy jealousy inducing, just a nice to have, that could be what OP is looking for.

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Novel idea: they could hand out older moogle tomestones for older content!