Healer are no longer Healers we are DPS

Why do you continue to take away a Healers' main job...Healing?????
It has been getting worse and worse since Alexander. Why can we not focus on the job we are supposed to be doing...HEALING!!!:mad:

If you're raiding and all you do is heal, you're not helping your group. Now offensive cooldowns are 1.5 seconds there's no point not to help DPS.

If you've been grumbling about it since HW you really need to get over it.

If we are to be DPS where is our damage rotation?

Translation: when my party is topped up I want to do nothing. Stop being lazy. We don't even have a rotation. ABC has been the game design forever.

I get OP. I wanna help my group in the form of healing too. It doesn't mean that's what I do. I wish it was what I HAD to do, I wish it was necessary but it isn't. Heal and help out with DPS. Instead I DPS and help out with healing instead. 99% of the time I press 1 button and every 30 seconds another one. And this isn't even an exaggeration. I am literally spamming DPS buttons the entire fight. Imagine MNK but with only 2 GCD's and the entire rest of the kit is just CD's that you weave. That's what we're playing. Instead of adding DPS with our CD's, we do healing instead.
CD's just aren't engaging enough. If they don't modify GCD's and simply are press and forget... it's just not enough. And that's what most CD's are. Give us damage to heal and a more engaging healing kit. Or give us more DPS buttons and keep it how it is. Just something. Anything. But not this.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

If we are to be DPS where is our damage rotation?

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In Sage toolkit looks like it.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

If you're raiding and all you do is heal, you're not helping your group. Now offensive cooldowns are 1.5 seconds there's no point not to help DPS.

If you've been grumbling about it since HW you really need to get over it.

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You may be right about needing to get over it, however, there's no need for you to be rude about your reply.

I have been playing this game since beta and I remember the way a healer used to work and I loved it. I do not like the transition from a pure healer to being a DPS because when raiding, healing is only wanted a limited amount of time and DPS basically all of it. This transition feels more like they should just get rid of the healer category all together and just make is a special kind of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Scura

Why do you continue to take away a Healers' main job...Healing?????
It has been getting worse and worse since Alexander. Why can we not focus on the job we are supposed to be doing...HEALING!!!:mad:

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Go and play WoW please, this is not, Healers have always been Green Dps, albeit with absolutely shittier mechanics.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Go and play WoW please, this is not, Healers have always been Green Dps, albeit with absolutely shittier mechanics.

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Hey man healers in wow dps too, they're just not expected too like in FFXIV. Some classes actually need to dps to heal.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

Translation: when my party is topped up I want to do nothing. Stop being lazy. We don't even have a rotation. ABC has been the game design forever.

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My argument is that I NEVER want the party topped up, I want constant damage.

It is very easy to make us be Healers. Make parties take more damage, get more debuffs that we need to Esuna, give us mechanics that make us pay more attention to the parties needs etc. DPSing is fine, but making a healers' DPS numbers so high where that is all they want to focus on to be top of charts should not be their main idea of a healer.

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Originally Posted by Scura

It is very easy to make us be Healers. Make parties take more damage, get more debuffs that we need to Esuna, give us mechanics that make us pay more attention to the parties needs etc. DPSing is fine, but making a healers' DPS numbers so high where that is all they want to focus on to be top of charts should not be their main idea of a healer.

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Adding more things to esuna or more tank busters doesn't make it more fun, it makes everything more tedious. That sort of attitude of wanting more to heal leads to overhealing and wasting mana. If you're strategic with your heals and the rest of your party is avoiding mechanics as they should, mana spent throwing a glare is a resource better spent than overhealing the tank.

If we try to balance it to make the healers do more, then the tanks won't have anything to do. I'm not sure why people are allergic to throwing a glare in their off-time. Ranged DPS don't complain about having an ability to diminish incoming damage for the party or having support abilities.

I think going full green DPS isn't the way either, and you shouldn't be trying to be a black mage who can cure, but with how the game is now you should be expected to at least help the rest of your party and provide some damage when you can in order to let the pressure off the DPS a bit during DPS checks. The game is a team game in a different way from other MMOs in that each of the roles has some ability to help everyone else. Tanks can diminish incoming damage and add DPS, DPS has abilities to support each other, raise, heal, or diminish damage, and likewise healers can DPS as well.

I think it's clear that the devs don't want to put too much pressure on one role

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Originally Posted by Imora

My argument is that I NEVER want the party topped up, I want constant damage.

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That would be fun to watch. 95% of healers wouldn't be able to keep up.

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Originally Posted by RocciaSolida

I think it's clear that the devs don't want to put too much pressure on one role

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Which is why they tend to put the pressure on everybody. *stares at Light Rampant*

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

That would be fun to watch. 95% of healers wouldn't be able to keep up.

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98 really. Lets not pretend that that extra 3 % could keep up.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

98 really. Lets not pretend that that extra 3 % could keep up.

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Depends on the content, I'm confident that about 20% of the healers I get in dungeons could keep up with increased healing requirements, the other 80% however...
And the emphasis is on "in dungeons", anything more difficult would be a very different matter.

Sage gets quite a lot of shields and hots. I suspect they did that so two SGE comps would be viable considering its the go-to healer for people that are fed up with one button spam rotations.

AST does seem to get some new card management stuff, though honestly I coulnd't really tell.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

98 really. Lets not pretend that that extra 3 % could keep up.

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Clearly, the worst part is that the "no dps healers" that only spam heals are the ones that let us die the most ... imagine if there was damage constantly and not once every 30 seconds :'D

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Originally Posted by Scura

Why do you continue to take away a Healers' main job...Healing?????
It has been getting worse and worse since Alexander. Why can we not focus on the job we are supposed to be doing...HEALING!!!:mad:

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We've never had fewer dps abilities than we do now and you're still complaining? Good grief. YES. You're expected to help kill things...in every game ever.

News flash, healers have always been dpsing. What else are you gonna do when there's nothing to heal?

Aside from that, judging from how they showed off Holy 2, that Starfall ability, and Sage's dps rotation along their dps/heal ability, it's SE softly acknowledging that healers do indeed dps and that they're incorporating them into their kits, which is nice.

Truth is that healers will never be able to heal that much in their combat design to enable constant GCD healing, no matter how much they say they will.

Every encounter is predictable, and the jobs are designed around it. They're not changing every job to accommodate for one role. Plus, healer should not be strictly healing. The stereotype that all you do is heal is superficial, spamming Cure 2/Medica/Cure 3 is as equally boring as spamming Glare, except spamming Glare is actually useful.

We should encourage SE to add more "support" like buffs and a DPS kit that rewards you for using your heals effectively.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

If you're raiding and all you do is heal, you're not helping your group.

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WUT!!! did I just read LMFAO

As an newbe or sprout i just try to survive myself and team members. Often i am flat on the floor.:)
So doing damage beside healing is not often done be me, i have a small dot what i use on bosses and an ae spell to use on trash mobs groups but only if the tank still got enough live, mostly not.
I like doing dungeons but it looks like i am not good enough to do healing and damage at the same time.

Lol. I can't imagine the 'fun' to be had trying to play full DPS as a SCH. 0_o

That sounds like a low effort bait

Can't wait to see no DPS Sage that will argue they're not DPS even with a healing ressource tied to DPS spell and calling it "bad design".

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Originally Posted by Imora

My argument is that I NEVER want the party topped up, I want constant damage.

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Completely impossible.

I don't think people realize how impossible this is. The difference between a party of semi-inexperienced players challenging a fight at min-ilv and a well coordinated BiS geared group with a perfect heal map and group mitigation planning is worlds apart. Even if the damage was high enough that the first example had to heal 100% of the time, the skilled group would reduce that to well below half.

Also, ff14 follows a very strict 1 healer per 4 players composition. A game like WoW you can be flexible, adding more or reducing your number of healers as you learn a fight. This issue means FF14 will always be stuck with a situation where gear+experience results in increasing downtime.

Obviously incoming damage could be bumped a good bit, but you'd never eliminate downtime, so being able to fill it is important.

Scura,

I agree with Mikko, the expectation of any successful raid static/pug from the healer class to do both DPS and heal. By not showing that committment, this puts more pressure on the other members who then in-turn will eventually jump ship to another Static or leave party.

Please forward request in your FC Mentoring Channel and someone who help you out.

Thank You

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Originally Posted by Scura

Why do you continue to take away a Healers' main job...Healing?????
It has been getting worse and worse since Alexander. Why can we not focus on the job we are supposed to be doing...HEALING!!!:mad:

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God I wish we'd get treated a bit like dps. At least if that were the case the Devs would consider one-button-spam something completely unacceptable in terms of design. Yet here we are.

Did we watch the same Live Letter? People wouldn't be this pissed if healers had moved more to Green DPS lol

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Go and play WoW please, this is not, Healers have always been Green Dps, albeit with absolutely shittier mechanics.

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different people want different things

if your response to other healers, who have different wishes about healers, is play other games, then I would suggest you play other roles as well, other games even.

If you want to have simple rotations, go play tanks. Warrior can heal a good amount without using GCDs

If you want to have complexity of DPS, go play DPS. Dancer, Red Mage, and Summoner(phoenix mode) can heal too.

If you want to support the team while doing DPS. Tanks and all DPS jobs can provide some form of support

Really, no one is stopping you from playing DPS, better yet, go main a DPS and ask for more healing actions so one day you can outheal poor performing healers.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

If you want to have a simple rotations, go play tanks. Warrior can heal a good amount without using GCDs

If you want to have complexity of DPS, go play DPS. Dancer, Red Mage, and Summoner(phoenix mode) can heal too.

If you want to support the team while doing DPS. Tanks and all DPS jobs can provide some form of support

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What if I enjoy the healer fantasy but I don't want to get bored out of my mind spamming one button damage? AST I guess. Or Sage.

What if I used to love SCH's class fantasy, it's tactitian aesthetics, the look of the spells, the book animations. What if I enjoyed what the class used to offer. Debuffs like Virus, Eye for an Eye, slow with Shadowflare, and Miasma.

Where is that tactitian fantasy now? Where is the Elementalist fantasy from WHM? Do I go find them in other classes? Other games? Why are people's attachements being dismissed? Was it really that hard to maintain those things? Did they have to be removed? WHM and SCH have lost so many skills and abilities over the years. They got their kits cut down and replaced with One-button spam. Now made easier with the new shining shorter casts. Do you want to optimize? Better get your stomach ready to see that bar fill up with the same goddam spell 130 times in this 10 minute fight.

I guess there are people out there that really find using Broil or Glare twelve times in a row after each dot enticing gameplay. That they don't see anything wrong or annoying about that. Hey you get to weave in some oGCD spells.

Cool.

Just move on, right. This is no longer the Job for you. Hey better just try something else. Sure.

Oh monk is a disaster? Oh better play Ninja. Why don't you like Summoner? Better play Black Mage. Oh the devs are ready to bend for those Jobs but not the healers. No, the healers have to stick to this amazing ,perfectly designed gameplay. No issues there. No pet IA ghosting. No Dot clipping. No skill redundancy, no problems whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

What if I enjoy the healer fantasy but I don't want to get bored out of my mind spamming one button damage? AST I guess. Or Sage.

What if I used to love SCH's class fantasy, it's tactitian aesthetics, the look of the spells, the book animations. What if I enjoyed what the class used to offer. Debuffs like Virus, Eye for an Eye, slow with Shadowflare, and Miasma.

Where is that tactitian fantasy now? Where is the Elementalist fantasy from WHM? Do I go find them in other classes? Other games? Why are people's attachements being dismissed? Was it really that hard to maintain those things? Did they have to be removed? WHM and SCH have lost so many skills and abilities over the years. They got their kits cut down and replaced with One-button spam. Now made easier with the new shining shorter casts. Do you want to optimize? Better get your stomach ready to see that bar fill up with the same goddam spell 130 times in this 10 minute fight.

I guess there are people out there that really find using Broil or Glare twelve times in a row after each dot enticing gameplay. That they don't see anything wrong or annoying about that. Hey you get to weave in some oGCD spells.

Cool.

Just move on, right. This is no longer the Job for you. Hey better just try something else. Sure.

Oh monk is a disaster? Oh better play Ninja. Why don't you like Summoner? Better play Black Mage. Oh the devs are ready to bend for those Jobs but not the healers. No, the healers have to stick to this amazing gameplay.

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I'm not the one straight out telling others to switch out. It's not my place nor any others'.

if the aesthetics is behind your main complaint, then it's fine to complain. I respect your sentiment and it should not be dismissed.

I, too, prefer Elemental aspect in WHM, though IMO some abilities many people in this forum praise and love should go away for good and never come back

You may disagree with me and I can understand it, but there some people really like the Holy thing on WHM. Are they not part of the community? Should they deserve to be ignored?

how about those who really enjoy that one button spam? I know some people do.

Do you tell them switch their jobs when there's no substitute for them?

and If they tell you to switch jobs or go player other games? Should you listen to them? Why should they listen to you?

What makes you more deserving to ask for changes for healers than those who wish to stay the same?

How about Dancers asking for more healing actions and Bards asking for Raise actions? You really want to have different buttons to press while healing, and other DPS want to heal while having different buttons to press

How about all melee DPS asking for more healing abilities because those players prefer melee aesthetics while being healer at heart ?

You can ask for interesting rotations or actions on healers because of your healer fantasy and aesthetic preference, so can DPS and Tank players ask for interesting healing actions and supportive skills because of their preference.

At the end of the day, every job is perfect. No one needs each other and everyone is happy

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I'm not the one straight out telling others to switch out. It's not my place nor any others'.

if the aesthetics is behind your main complaint, then it's fine to complain. I respect your sentiment and it should not be dismissed.

I, too, prefer Elemental aspect in WHM, though IMO some abilities many people in this forum praise and love should go away for good and never come back

You may disagree with me and I can understand it, but there some people really like the Holy thing on WHM. Are they not part of the community? Should they deserve to be ignored?

how about those who really enjoy that one button spam? I know some people do.

Do you tell them switch their jobs when there's no substitute for them?

and If they tell you to switch jobs or go player other games? Should you listen to them? Why should they listen to you?

What makes you more deserving to ask for changes for healers than those who wish to stay the same?

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Nothing I suppose. Unless you think more time played equals more experience, and that deserves more dev attention. I don't think it's wise to center your attention to veterans and "gatekeepers" exclusively.

You could still "one button" spam back in ARR. Heck you have always been able to focus your attention on healing and ignore the DPS part of your kit with any healer. Adding more buttons doesn't hurt people that don't want to press buttons. They just don't press them.

But removing buttons/skills does hurt people that want more complexity or want to optimize, because they are forced to play with less complex kits. Im absolutely fine with lowering the skill floor. But why would you lower the skill ceiling too? Why hurt your veteran players? Is that design compromise completely impossible?

My desire for the healer role is really quite simple.

I don't want to see another encounter where I press 1 button 171 times or my co-healer manages 200+

I genuinely don't care if they pad it out with buffs, more healing, more varied DPS or what not. I just don't want to be pressing the same single button for the majority of the fight.

I'd be absolutely over the moon if SE offered more variety within the role but they just don't at least for now. Maybe Sadge will finally get there.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

How about Dancers asking for more healing actions and Bards asking for Raise actions? You really want to have different buttons to press while healing, and other DPS want to heal while having different buttons to press

How about all melee DPS asking for more healing abilities because those players prefer melee aesthetics while being healer at heart ?

You can ask for interesting rotations or actions on healers because of your healer fantasy and aesthetic preference, so can DPS and Tank players ask for interesting healing actions and supportive skills because of their preference.

At the end of the day, every job is perfect. No one needs each other and everyone is happy

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No, I do not accept this comparison. These are not equivalent things, considering how healing works and its value. Healing only has value when it saves a player from death. DPS always has value. Healing is situational by design, therefore making a comparison between giving DPS situational skills and giving Healers abilities that are always useful is not fair. The way healing is designed in this game with sparce damage ditched all around, most mechanics being avoidable, hell, most mechanics requiring you to do them or simply wipe (Meaning no amount of healing will save you, not even shields), really reduce the value of healing abilities.

This is not a debate about Healing stepping on DPS identity. It was never about healers wanting to hit numbers equal to DPS. What causes the incessant one-button spam is the healing downtime prevalence. Healers barely need to cast healing spells to keep everybody safe. It's only made worse by practice, gear and the potency and availability of your healing skills. The more potent your healing spells, the less healing spells you actually need to cast, the more prevalent the healing downtime becomes and the more often you'll find yourself casting your damaging spells back to back over and over.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Nothing I suppose. Unless you think more time played equals more experience, and that deserves more dev attention. I don't think it's wise to center your attention to veterans and "gatekeepers" exclusively.

You could still "one button" spam back in ARR. Heck you have always been able to focus your attention on healing and ignore the DPS part of your kit with any healer. Adding more buttons doesn't hurt people that don't want to press buttons. They just don't press them.

But removing buttons/skills does hurt people that want more complexity or want to optimize, because they are forced to play with less complex kits. Im absolutely fine with lowering the skill floor. But why would you lower the skill ceiling too? Why hurt your veteran players? Is that design compromise completely impossible?

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I agree with you, but the funny part is that despite taking away so many actions and spells. There are still lots of healers who fail to press what few remaining buttons they have.

I'm sure you may have seen some healers that never use their oGCDs through out the fight.

Probably from SE perspective, the current state of healers has enough skill ceiling as it is, but I jest.

I don't know what will it take for SE to change their healer design philosophy. I personally dislike it and I hope your concerns and suggestions are taken seriously by SE someday.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

No, I do not accept this comparison. These are not equivalent things, considering how healing works and its value. Healing only has value when it saves a player from death. DPS always has value. Healing is situational by design, therefore giving DPS situational skills as opposed to giving Healers abilities that are always useful its not fair. The way healing is designed in this game with sparce damage ditched all around, most mechanics being avoidable, hell, most mechanics requiring you to do them or simply wipe (Meaning no amount of healing will save you, not even shields), really reduce the value of healing abilities.

This is not a debate about Healing stepping on DPS identity. It was never about healers wanting to hit numbers equal to DPS. What causes the incessant one-button spam is the healing downtime prevalence. Healers barely need to cast healing spells to keep everybody safe. It's only made worse by practice, gear and the potency and availability of your healing skills. The more healing you potentially are able to do, the less healing you actually need to do and the more prevalent the healing downtime becomes and the more often you'll find yourself casting your damaging spells back to back over and over.

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I agree and i should not have edited it. That part was meant to be a reply to other different topic in other thread, and somehow i made it towards you. For this I apologize

I picked up RDM this expansion mostly because I was thinking that Vercure and Verraise would be enough to satiate my desire to heal while having more options to do damage. I was wrong. I noticed that what prevents RDM from stepping on healer toes is their lack of ability to prevent death from happening in the first place. No cleanse, no Rescue, no oGCD or AoE heals, no HoTs or mitigation abilities; these abilities are truly instrumental in allowing healers to keep people alive, and firmly establishes them as healers in FFXIV.

The more time I spend away from healing, the more I realize that healers are not DPS jobs. Much like the ability to speak doesn't make a person intelligent, the ability to do damage does not make healers a DPS job. Even if they are doing it 90% of the time. The reason why I feel that way is because brainless button spamming to cause damage is filler, and the amount of time a healer spends DPSing can directly be correlated to their downtime. No matter if you look at things like 'cause damage until heals are needed' or only cause damage when it is safe to do so; both mindsets will optimize their kits exactly the same.

Healer kits are designed to erase mistakes, or prevent them. The very nature of this role is situational. That's fine, but also easy to see how someone can feel like healers are DPS jobs when the situation usually requires them to do damage. This is exacerbated as players get better gear, and better at encounters. That is a big reason why I did pick up RDM, because if my healers are reduced to ST spam and raises, then I might as well use a job with a more enjoyable DPS rotation while still providing rez support.

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Originally Posted by Imora

My argument is that I NEVER want the party topped up, I want constant damage.

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I remember when HW or (may be SB) first came out, playing with my AST
leveling up running all those dungeon we all barely have the il required, and AST heal is so low I am constantly healing just to keep everyone alive
those are the time I have most fun with my AST
now with all the over gearing, and how powerful oGCD heal are. I found AST very boring.
I would rather dev give us have those thrill of intense healing or give us more support skill/buff, make more mechanic that relate to healing, than giving us more DPS skill.