8 man "nightmare" dungeons

Take 4 man dungeons and recreate them to be 8 man nightmare dungeons(New Diabolos primal storyline).

Most 4 man dungeons are braindead EZ and i think its an absolute SHAME that so many cool dungeon designs and unique boss fights are complete face roll content.

I would like to see the 4 man dungeon storylines/concepts to be taken and made into harder 8 man versions with maybe light raids mechanics with maybe the final boss being the only extreme level boss.

Whenever you pull an additional mob you get nightmare stacks that makes all mobs you pull stronger/faster/beefier and after so many stacks may even turn into elite versions of themselves that can do light raid wide damage/mechs.

Based on how many nightmare stacks you have when you exit battle(without wiping) you will be granted more stacks of treasure finder buff that will grant you rarer item drops/more chests.

When pulling normal mobs the respawn area at the beginning of the dungeon will be blocked off to prevent people from respawning and rejoining the group mid-battle.

In order to do a successful pull for max treasure finder stacks they will actually need to use buffed crowd control spells and other moves to keep monsters at bay since all the nightmare stacks mobs will be too much to handle all at once.

This will still reward players for doing massive pulls but still makes it so they need to coordinate more and handle the pulls differently than aoe-ing everything down since the party will wipe if they do.

Bosses will also grant treasure finder stacks based on how many times players wipe on a boss. A boss will start at 25 stacks, and after several wipes they will receive the min amount of stacks which would be 5.

Treasure chests in the dungeon will not only grant rare mounts/glamour/minions/etc(very good rewards) but also offer buffs/extra timer/treasure finder stacks/mimics/etc and other fun stuff to shake up these dungeons.

I think this could be a good mid-tier/extreme level content for endgame that uses the storylines that are already in game but uses their full potential as bosses and unique encounters as nightmare versions that are exaggerated and based on the warrior of lights memories.

I think this could easily fill the niche that isn't really done much in this game which is 8 man dungeons instead of just having 8 man trials.

The raids were changed after coil onwards is because none of the "trash" mobs were a challenge and none of the mechanics for them were something you needed to contend with.

A 8 man dungeon that increases in difficulty with every boss with only the final boss being a real challenge would be a good type of mid-tier endgame content the game is sorely lacking.

Thank you for reading.

Oh look. Someone is asking for the equivalent of Mythic+ dungeons again.

There really isn't any way to satisfy your request for better rewards without unbalancing the current reward structure of the game. And by that I mean high-end raiding.

If the point is "challenge me", why ask for neater loot than one can get anywhere else?

never did the OP even mention gear being a reward. they clearly said "rarer item drops", which could be anything. Does deep dungeon gear any relevant endgame gear?


If people keep bringing up mythic+ its because they want to do challenging dungeons OR challenging 4 man content, not the reaard structure. its really not that hard to understand.

Not that gear couldn't drop....but it would just be basically unique glamour or dyeable versions of dungeon gear that already exist.

The idea itself is what matters, if enough people keep suggesting the same/similar thing then maybe SE should get on it and make something like it already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QooEr

If people keep bringing up mythic+ its because they want to do challenging dungeons OR challenging 4 man content, not the reaard structure. its really not that hard to understand.

---

What part of 'neater loot than one can get anywhere else' do you not understand.

Challenging dungeons. Check. Go for it SE. Challenging dungeon that give you 'neater loot than one can get anywhere else'. Not so much.

Most of the OP's original comment revolves around rewards, not around the challenge.

Back in 1.0 we had this.
AV back then would make people cry compared to how easy it is now.

I wouldn't mind them back, but I generally wouldn't mind more content in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

What part of 'neater loot than one can get anywhere else' do you not understand.

Challenging dungeons. Check. Go for it SE. Challenging dungeon that give you 'neater loot than one can get anywhere else'. Not so much.

Most of the OP's original comment revolves around rewards, not around the challenge.

---

What's wrong with offering proper reward incentives? Huh?

Do you want the content to waste your time when it comes to rewards? Or am i misunderstanding something?

The rewards are aside the point, i just think it would be cool for 4 man dungeons to have more mechanics than the original and be more challenging as 8 man dungeon raids.

I think plenty of the aesthetics and boss designs/ideas are great from 4 man, they are brimming with potential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

What part of 'neater loot than one can get anywhere else' do you not understand.

Challenging dungeons. Check. Go for it SE. Challenging dungeon that give you 'neater loot than one can get anywhere else'. Not so much.

Most of the OP's original comment revolves around rewards, not around the challenge.

---

the literal second sentence of OP's post reads
"Most 4 man dungeons are braindead EZ and i think its an absolute SHAME that so many cool dungeon designs and unique boss fights are complete face roll content." the last paragraph says they want mid tier endgame content.
The entire premise of this thread is about having challenging dungeons.

the only one bringing up gear was you. OP veratim wrote "Treasure chests in the dungeon will not only grant rare mounts/glamour/unique materia/etc(very good rewards) but also offer buffs/extra timer/treasure finder stacks/mimics/etc and other fun stuff to shake up these dungeons."

At least read posts before trying to invalidate them.

Personally i think its a great suggestion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QooEr

never did the OP even mention gear being a reward. they clearly said "rarer item drops", which could be anything. Does deep dungeon gear any relevant endgame gear?


If people keep bringing up mythic+ its because they want to do challenging dungeons OR challenging 4 man content, not the reaard structure. its really not that hard to understand.

---

Yeah, that was what I thought too... They give Ultimate Raiders just some cool weapon skin, right? Why can't those raids just give, I dunno, cool hats? Maybe some Aura effects or something of the sort?

I'm not oposed to get another place to get end-game gear like we currently have Augmented Cryptlurker and Edenmorn, would be nice to get more options, but we can just have something cool to flex with!

SHB will be remembered (varying on stat cruntch effects) for having the worst dungeons in the game. Even if u hinder urself like say having no healer or only 1 dps it still mechanically malnourished. yoship stated a few times that 4 man content will never rival stuff like 8 man since they dont wanna strain the healer. thats fair and all but linear corridors where DPS and Tanks dont have any big responsibilities isnt the best format and if the content is that trivial whats the point of it? just make em solo instances

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QooEr

the only one bringing up gear was you.n

---

Please show me where, in my original reply, I used the word 'gear'. You won't find it.

You assumed that was my entire point, but I specifically used the word 'loot' at the end because, well, with one or two lines of "make things harder" and multiple lines about all the neat treasure chests that one could get, it didn't seem like the challenge was the main point of the request. It still doesn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Please show me where, in my original reply, I used the word 'gear'. You won't find it.

You assumed that was my entire point, but I specifically used the word 'loot' at the end because, well, with one or two lines of "make things harder" and multiple lines about all the neat treasure chests that one could get, it didn't seem like the challenge was the main point of the request. It still doesn't.

---

you brought up the "reward structure" of the game, along with "high end raids". the only reward structure in xiv that involves raids is BiS gear. What exactly where you referring to then?

We have a lot of other reward systems that are mostly cosmetic or completely self contained, and harder dungeons could be no different. deep dungeons, bozja/eureka minus the relics, the firmament and the kupons all have a variety of rewards with different rarities that dont affect "the reward structure" of the game in the slightest.


saying you dont want a kind of content because of its hypothetical rewards makes literally no sense

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jirah

SHB will be remembered (varying on stat cruntch effects) for having the worst dungeons in the game. Even if u hinder urself like say having no healer or only 1 dps it still mechanically malnourished. yoship stated a few times that 4 man content will never rival stuff like 8 man since they dont wanna strain the healer. thats fair and all but linear corridors where DPS and Tanks dont have any big responsibilities isnt the best format and if the content is that trivial whats the point of it? just make em solo instances

---

Yeah, the feeling I get from playing the Shadowbringer stuff is that "It's a nice story beat, but I wish I was inside of a dungeon right now." Hero's Gauntlet really cemented that for me, here's a dungeon that is all about Shadowbringers being cool but we had Treasure Coffers just popping out in the middle of combat because Dungeons must have Drops and I guess this is technically a Dungeon... Even though it is mostly just a scaled up Solo Duty.

I don't want the story focus to go away, I'll give you that, but at least ARR had actual Dungeons? Y'know, with a place in the map? They had to figure out where they were because people would be there to organize parties to go into the places, so you'd had the front yard of Haukke Manor or the entrances to Coil of Bahamut to at least FEEL like they were actual places? Now we're getting dungeon portals in the middle of a peaceful Eulmore just because the story started the dungeon there. It looks ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiganCross

Hero's Gauntlet really cemented that for me, here's a dungeon that is all about Shadowbringers being cool but we had Treasure Coffers just popping out in the middle of combat because Dungeons must have Drops and I guess this is technically a Dungeon... Even though it is mostly just a scaled up Solo Duty.

---

We've had plenty of duties that were outside.
Did you also feel this way about, say, Bardams Mettle?

I'd take anything at this point. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Oh look. Someone is asking for the equivalent of Mythic+ dungeons again.

There really isn't any way to satisfy your request for better rewards without unbalancing the current reward structure of the game. And by that I mean high-end raiding.

---

General respawn locks are not a mechanic in M+. Difficulty does not increase over time or bosses killed in M+. You do not receive less boss loot per wipe to said boss in M+; you merely either time the run or you do not. M+ does not use double the standard dungeon party size.

The only connection between the two systems is that they would (1) be in dungeons and (2) ask for (and only past the halfway point or so for this suggestion) more than merely a "braindead" level of difficulty.

But hey, why bother to actually read if, on first instinct, something feels vaguely WoW-influenced. Just burn it all, right?

Quote:

---

If the point is "challenge me", why ask for neater loot than one can get anywhere else?

---

Yet there's not a single mention here of the loot being unique. Hell, it doesn't even say it ought to be gear, rather than furniture. In fact "rarer", being a comparative, implies that it is already a randomly dropped item available either broadly or across dungeons in particular, none of which are gear related and therefore have nothing in conflict with "high-end raiding" or "the current reward structure" you placed this concept against.

_________________________

Now, there are a number of problems with this idea as packaged. That's understandable; it's first, spitball draft of a something with rather complex potential outcomes. But it's not M+, nor does it seem intended to be.

Nah, not needed. This type of structure can be found in many other places/games. It's not needed in Final Fantasy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

We've had plenty of duties that were outside.
Did you also feel this way about, say, Bardams Mettle?

---

Nah, at most Doma Castle felt like that during SB, but it was still fine. It's mostly ShB that made everything more cinematic and costed us actual location dungeons. GD is already more of a momment than a location, for example. And that was the pre-ShB one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiganCross

Nah, at most Doma Castle felt like that during SB, but it was still fine. It's mostly ShB that made everything more cinematic and costed us actual location dungeons. GD is already more of a momment than a location, for example. And that was the pre-ShB one.

---

This is why i choose the narrative of diabolos primal nightmare realm, it fits into every "dungeon" type and even allows for permutations on these "memories".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DBriggs304

Nah, not needed. This type of structure can be found in many other places/games. It's not needed in Final Fantasy.

---

Huh? Not needed in final fantasy? What are you talking about?

There are many different difficulties to many different pieces of content in the game.
(hard modes,extremes,savages,unreal,etc)

Not once was i considering other games when coming up with this idea.

Absolutely baffling to me.

I never played WoW for example, so when people mention it i just scratch my head at them.

If you have problems with mythic plus for example, why would i care about that? It's not something i even fully understand,
i am not asking for +15 levels of difficulty or w/e it is?

Just 1 extra tier:nightmare with it's own little story surrounding diabolos.

This goes in line with what they did for every piece of harder content like when you go from doing MSQ primals to extremes, remember during ARR extremes they had extra story that was unique that explained the primals increased power? Or how certain harder fights are exaggerated tales from the wandering minstrel?

My idea follows the same pattern they already laid out.

It's obviously not going to be implemented in the same way as other games, the smartest thing you could say is the flaws of that system(mythic plus) shouldn't be repeated, not throw the baby out with the bathwater and do away with the whole idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I'd take anything at this point. lol

---

Same, so long as it can breath some life (back?) into dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I figured unique Materia could increase multiple stats, or even offer new abilities or offer permutations to existing ones.

This could fill in the end game niche without stepping on the toes of actual gear progression.

---

First, having uniquely powerful materia would mess with "actual gear progression". Moreover, I'd keep things simple where possible; avoid overcomplication. I think it's fine, for instance, if progressively difficult nightmare runs give progressively higher chances for (or move you nearer to your next weekly guaranteed drop of) something, say, just 5 ilvls above the pre-tier BiS and may hit 5 ilvls short of post-tier BiS by the time most raiders are farming the last floor of that raid. Mostly, you just want to avoid it being a way for raiders to get ahead on their mains or it providing so much random but rare junk that it badly devalues other means of, say, acquiring non-craftable vanity items. But you don't need to offer power in some totally unique way. You want the gameplay to be the point, and the rewards merely (or just short of) commensurate to the gear and skill required.

Speaking of keeping things simple, the basic idea of a dungeon getting harder as you go already seems pretty great for midcore side-content, especially if you plan to shake it up further with little added challenges. I feel your greatest strength in that concept is that you can use the Nightmare stacks to naturally fit reward to difficulty. For instance, maybe you could have a bar you build to acquire additional treasure chests and each boss and mob type would give a certain amount multiplied by your level of Nightmare at that time (with nightmare gradually increasing or fading with mob count, etc., so it doesn't oblige cheese strats like pulling the whole room before finishing off the first pack just to get more reward from them). In this way, even against normal, relatively weak mobs, less skilled/geared parties could pull smaller and be challenged while more skilled/geared parties could just pull larger, and each would be rewarded proportionately: the greater the nominal danger, the greater the reward.

For more core content, especially if the gap between early- and late-dungeon difficulty is fairly wide, I suspect having only a small span of a dungeon that actually suits the difficulty you want -- before that being too easy and thereafter like testing the hardness of one's skull against concrete -- could be irritating. However, having some initial difficulty modifiers available, such as to just increase all nightmare (and thus difficulty and reward) from the very start, could easily fix that. That be your first step towards "M+" territory, but I don't see why that should matter; what works, works. We needn't avoid whole spans of content over a stigmatized potential (and highly vague) affiliation.

Edit:I mis-read her post and i was being an idiot.

8 man dungeons sound fun but I really want 4 Man unreal dungeons. However it seems the devs only give us one choice. Either a new ultimate or harder dungeon. People always scream ultimate. I don’t think we’ll ever see harder dungeons as long as ultimate raids exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I removed that part of my second post very early this morning because i didn't think the reward structure for end game gear that square enix would make would have anything to do with whether my idea was good or not.

How did you quote something that wasn't there? Did you have the forum post open all day?

---

It was simply a pinned tab, mate. They don't auto-refresh. That or you didn't change out that part as early as you thought you did.

Quote:

---

I am confused why are you making the same talking points about my idea as the other trolls in this thread did? Alt account?

---

I'm not. I'm one of the people who responded to said "troll" in defense of your post.

Quote:

---

Pretending my end game content shouldn't effect other piece of end game is very bad talking point, since square enix has successfully done this many times in the past with other forms of alternative content every expansion.

---

There's no pretense, it's not a bad talking point, and XIV has never allowed alternate content to compete with raid gear at the time of that raid gear's release.

Quote:

---

Moreover i don't determine the reward structure Square enix does, it makes little difference to my idea to talk about end game gear balance since i trust square to do a good job and it wouldn't be based on any of your excessively verbose hypothetical nonsense.

---

I never said you determine the reward structure. You don't "determine" squat. But concept which match themselves to the existing (trends in) reward structure are more viable than those that are not, and if you're not aiming at all for viability... why place your idea on a public forum. The devs aren't going to look at it until it's (done some equivalent of having) been retweeted ad nauseum, so the only value you're going to get from this place is constructive feedback.

Quote:

---

Ideas on this forum aren't meant to be 1 to 1 implementatation if they ever did use it..its simply there to inspire them to make meaningful content that people would enjoy.

---

You were given constructive feedback as to what seemed really good about your idea and what you could do to improve it further. If you're only response to informed feedback is that 'it doesn't have to be implemented exactly as I've stated anyways'... why put it on a forum? If you've zero desire to revise or flesh out your concept (a rather good one at its core, I think)... why is it here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPete

8 man dungeons sound fun but I really want 4 Man unreal dungeons. However it seems the devs only give us one choice. Either a new ultimate or harder dungeon. People always scream ultimate. I don’t think we’ll ever see harder dungeons as long as ultimate raids exist.

---

"4 man unreal dungeons" was the mobs-synced-up (rather than players level-synced down) and slightly difficulty-spiked version of dungeons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It was simply a pinned tab, mate. They don't auto-refresh. That or you didn't change out that part as early as you thought you did.


I'm not. I'm one of the people who responded to said "troll" in defense of your post.


There's no pretense, it's not a bad talking point, and XIV has never allowed alternate content to compete with raid gear at the time of that raid gear's release.


I never said you determine the reward structure. You don't "determine" squat. But concept which match themselves to the existing (trends in) reward structure are more viable than those that are not, and if you're not aiming at all for viability... why place your idea on a public forum. The devs aren't going to look at it until it's (done some equivalent of having) been retweeted ad nauseum, so the only value you're going to get from this place is constructive feedback.


You were given constructive feedback as to what seemed really good about your idea and what you could do to improve it further. If you're only response to informed feedback is that 'it doesn't have to be implemented exactly as I've stated anyways'... why put it on a forum? If you've zero desire to revise or flesh out your concept (a rather good one at its core, I think)... why is it here?

---

My apologies i read your first paragraph and you discussing materia and end game gear balance and after that i rolled my eyes and didn't take the rest of post seriously.

So i am sorry for that i just assumed you were trolling.

Maybe ill write up a more appropriate response later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deliciou5

My apologies i read your first paragraph and you discussing materia and end game gear balance and after that i rolled my eyes and didn't take the rest of post seriously.

---

Nw's. It happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

First, having uniquely powerful materia would mess with....

---

My idea never really considered the gear level since i never thought of end game progression happening for nightmare outside extra materia and tomestones you could get. Otherwise the gear dropped would be dyeable glamour which would be a valuable reward to people.

Not sure if it's a good idea to discount a proper alternative end game reward like materia.

My original idea was maybe that you could get advanced materia such as having 2 stats on it instead of it one.

So when you fit the idea into a structure of end game it would be parallel in progression to 24 man raids but unlike 24 man instead it would have some more unique materias you couldn't get anywhere else such as maybe a materia that would enhance your crowd control spells, or materia that gave you old abilities back to classes(aero3).
TBH many players i know doesn't really much care for a deterministic approach to gear progression so potentially having some end game materia that granted new abilities or permutations wouldn't exactly be a bad thing esp if you could trade this rare materia on the market board.

Of course if they added new types of materia then they would also need to make slot removal of materia easier when switching out abilities.

But i digress since in a way i kinda agree with you that we should keep it simple in terms of rewards which is why i removed the mention of materia in the original posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Speaking of keeping things simple, the basic idea of a dungeon getting harder as you go already seems pretty great for midcore side-.....

---

I wanted to design nightmare stacks to be something that still allows players to make progress slowly by doing small pulls and also reward players who are more coordinated, even after doing a large pull with nightmare stacks you would still need to fight smaller groups from a mass of enemies in order to avoid wiping the party.

I wanted high amount of treasure finder stacks to be something that allows you unlock unique rewards that are exclusive to this mode for those are skilled while giving players many chances to wipe on bosses without feeling too guilty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

For more core content, especially if the gap between early- and late-dungeon difficulty...

---

Making it so you can just click on nightmare for all current dungeons like you would min ilvl would actually fit in line with more of what i imagined of most of the best rewards being mostly mounts/aesthetics since you would just have access to all dungeons at once without it directly impacting end game too heavily. Each dungeon can have exclusive mounts/aesthetics you can unlock but also a larger pool to draw from as well that all dungeons would share.

I think maybe certain items that fit within end game such as 24 man materia trade in catalysts or end game tokens could drop off the final boss chest if you have enough treasure finder stacks could be good as well since beating the final boss would be no small feat.

I don't really know what is wrong with acquiring matching BiS gear from someplace aside from Tomestones and Raid. I mean, Tomestone is just boring grind anyways, and it's matching power levels with the toughest Raids in the game. Hard content deserve to dole out powerful rewards.

You can just make the reward match the levels but give them a different stat distribution, like Augmented Cryptlurker and Edenmorn does right now. If anything that would make the content relevant and would make building more interesting with more optimization options.

Failing that you can AT LEAST make the items match the Extreme weapons levels. I hate the idea that a dungeon would somehow be considered inferior because the loot will just be undergeared by the time the raid comes out and it would need to be sustained by some form of totem grinding bs, but at least it would be something.

Basically this but with a few tweaks and hopefully set back into the 75 era? https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Dynamis

I would LOOOOOOOOOOOVE it. And it would be an amazing way to introduce job specific relic gear instead of just weapons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Not sure if it's a good idea to discount a proper alternative end game reward like materia.

---

I don't mean to discount it generally; rather, I just don't think it's a good idea to make that unique to a piece of side-content, or even to have it be the first place in which we see that end-game reward. Were interesting materia already pervasive, I'd love to see perhaps some unique (and potentially even faintly, faintly more powerful than elsewhere) version of that thing, but I don't think we should feel compelled by rewards to play the content. Abnormally strong materia would be of consequence to everyone and the fact it's materia (i.e., has a high chance of being destroyed when moved) would add some less-than-fun considerations of hording and upkeep. More importantly, though, materia is iconic to the franchise. Making a single piece of side-content the sole way to acquire an iconic element would give vibes similar to Eureka being the only way to get (the dyable form of) ANY artifact gear (of any expansion, rather than just the dyable form of Stormblood's).

And to be honest, though I'm sure having skills slottable via Materia would warrant complaints as to "illusion of choice" or "adding to the time it takes to have a seemingly functional character", the idea of having a slightly more wind- or storm-centric WHM, and that naturally (i.e., in the course of nightmare dungeon progression) advancing to those materia taking on additional "nightmare" effects, etc., is intriguing to me. Such just has to fight against structural constraints, just as virtually all complex power-effecting progression does. It would suck, for instance, if we had to potentially destroy materia just to swap to a different ability more suited to our content. Hell, if we were to commonly alternate between content types with opposed BiS materia, it'd already be a hassle just to swap between them, however freely. Eventually, you could end up with the "perfect" solution, whereby materia is specific to job and content type and is swapped automatically, or you have Material Palettes (similar to Glamor Palettes) and you can swap out those automatically in accord with certain conditions, etc., etc. But it'd still be a lot of extra investment just to put that power or cool factor you want in an iconic form, rather than just offering it up as Duty Actions or the likes of Lost Actions.

But I digress; the materia idea is long replaced.

Quote:

---

My original idea was maybe that you could get advanced materia such as having 2 stats on it instead of it one.

---

Last note: Perhaps I read too much into that, but consider: unless you would otherwise overcap your first-priority secondary stat, a single-stat materia of equal total stat gain will always be better than a half-and-half or equal-thirds or the like.

Quote:

---

Making it so you can just click on nightmare for all current dungeons like you would min ilvl would actually fit in line with more of what i imagined of most of the best rewards being mostly mounts/aesthetics since you would just have access to all dungeons at once without it directly impacting end game too heavily. Each dungeon can have exclusive mounts/aesthetics you can unlock but also a larger pool to draw from as well that all dungeons would share.

---

Given the shift to 8-man, in place of 4-, I'm not sure that would be as possible to just click as an additional option as a simple "Undermanned" (or the aforementioned "Minimum Item Level") option would be. But, regardless, I'm not sure I conveyed my point clearly.

By early- and late-dungeon I wasn't referring to, say, ARR or HW vs. Stormblood or Shadowbringers. I was referring instead to when you first start into the dungeon vs. the time by/at which you'd be fighting the last boss. You mentioned before that you expect the difficulty of the dungeon to rise over time, if I recall correctly, and not just in consequence to pull size or the like. If so, the dungeon would get harder over time. The larger that gap, the wider an audience the extremes (the very beginning, or the very end of a speedrun) could appeal to, but the narrower the portion of the nightmare dungeon that would appeal to any given group would be.

My assumption (perhaps faulty) is that you wouldn't be able to just toss in a 'nightmare' mode into any old dungeon (due to its being 8-man), nor that you'd necessarily want to. That seems more the territory of far more simplistic concepts like "unreal dungeons", wherein they'd be synced up (rather than down) and beefed up to be of similar engagement given our skills acquired since the dungeon's original level. Nightmare dungeons seem far more a labor of love, the selection of which would be slowly added to: the likes of visiting an Diablos in an aetheric prison (in which we've trapped him to use as a conduit in whatever "fight fire with fire" plan against the Ascians or by which to discover the means of the end of worlds or whatnot), and then taking any of many portals or mirrors into a tormentuous dreamscape, each, for a selection of dungeons.

If we could have dungeons be both 4-man and 8-man, instead of just 8-or-less (Praetorium, CM) OR 4-or-less (everything else), then yes, a toggle would obviously be better. If not, though, you might want to consider specifically how you want to leverage a rotation of nightmare dungeons or the fact that their parties would basically have to be premades.

I don't know that I really want a bunch of 8 man dungeon content, but man if the 4 player dungeons are just not challenging at all. And I get it that yoshi-p doesn't want to "strain the healer" but like...when I'm playing healer I'm bored to tears. Press-A-to-win gameplay just isn't exciting. I want to heal. I have this giant healing tool set that I am just BEGGING to be asked to use. I know it won't happen, because resources, but I really would love to see dungeons spiced up with an optional hard mode. And I don't mean the remixed "hard" versions of dungeons that exist now. Most dungeons are just not engaging on a mechanic or challenging level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xuto-cxb

I don't know that I really want a bunch of 8 man dungeon content, but man if the 4 player dungeons are just not challenging at all. And I get it that yoshi-p doesn't want to "strain the healer" but like...when I'm playing healer I'm bored to tears. Press-A-to-win gameplay just isn't exciting. I want to heal. I have this giant healing tool set that I am just BEGGING to be asked to use. I know it won't happen, because resources, but I really would love to see dungeons spiced up with an optional hard mode.

---

To be fair, a mob damage scalar isn't exactly resource intensive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be fair, a mob damage scalar isn't exactly resource intensive.

---

/whiteflag_val_1

I want them to perfect the exploration zone content with Eureka and Bozja.

Bozja was superior to eureka because of the skirmishes being fun and varied.

Eureka was superior to Bozja because of its interesting world and hostile environment which replicated old style of mmos, partially.

What Bozja lacked was a interesting world, as it was just a fate zone, fun fates but still.

What eureka lacked was dungeon philosophy and as hostile as the world was it wasn’t very decorative , as decent as the Arsenal was it was a missed opportunity to not have any open ended dungeons. And also Bozja better reflected the games strengths where Eureka only did in the very last instance.

I would love to see them perfect that, if dungeons are only used to people that don’t wanna play the game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jirah

perfect the exploration zone content with Eureka and Bozja.

---

So the problem with that kind of content, in general, is that Bozja is (to some degree) already suffering from the same problem as Eureka and will suffer further once EW hits: as the playerbase finishes their grind and moves on the areas grow stagnant and empty and since they're designed around the concept of having a lot of people playing at once and doing the content, they become increasingly frustrating and tedious for the people still trying to do them and as fun as Bozja is - it's significantly less fun when you come into it in a period where you can spend your entire time limit there and see every single FATE fade away at 0% completion outside of the ones you, and maybe one or two other people, slowly push through and every CE get maybe ten people enter at best while everyone else just AFKs asking when the last CLL was and when the next one will be.

Anyway more directly on topic in response to OP: I gotta say I play FFXIV because I like that it feels like FFXIV. I really, really, don't want to see this game turn into WoW with a million systems designed to exclusively cater to the increasingly small percentage of hardcore players that shout the loudest. Savage raids already get their own tier of loot and unique mounts - usually the highest available at the time of release and often at the end of the expansion overall, as well as being the only way to access dyable versions of certain items (And it's always bothered me that there wasn't an alternate path to upgrade normal raid gear to the savage tiers - even if it was added later after those raids stopped being relevant content. I much prefer being able to upgrade an item I like over having to go grind out a new one solely because that's just what I, personally, enjoy. It's a huge factor in why I like the relic weapon quest lines so much.). Ultimate raids get some neat reskins of items with unique visual effects. PVP gets its own exclusive sets of loot as well. I've always liked that most content in XIV wasn't overly bogged down by exclusivity - and the more it does that the more I feel it's going to alienate large swathes of its userbase like myself. I do most of the game at my own pace. I don't do savage raids until years after they've launched when I can comfortably do them unsynched because I simply don't have the time or energy to invest in learning harder versions of raids - it's pretty rare I find savage tier mechanics fun or interesting and the cultures in savage raids have never really done it for me so I just don't do that content. But the more of the game that gets walled off behind an arbitrary wall of just not being allowed to do it unless I tryhard the less I'd want to keep subbing and playing.

Basically it comes down to the same thing that keeps popping up a lot: if you want to play wow, with wow's systems, wow's mechanics and wow's design ideals - then just go play wow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dewslam

Basically it comes down to the same thing that keeps popping up a lot: if you want to play wow, with wow's systems, wow's mechanics and wow's design ideals - then just go play wow.

---

Those occasions, too, stemmed from a lack of reading comprehension and/or familiarity with their point of comparison.

Again, the OP has not played WoW, and this is nowhere to be found (except in the very generic sense of dungeons that have a modicum of actual difficulty) in WoW. There are no 10-man "dungeons" in WoW, only raids. There is no system in WoW by which difficulty progressively increases over the run itself with one's success. There is nothing like this in WoW save in that it's (A) a dungeon and (B) doesn't have to be merely faceroll difficulty.

"I would like to see a dungeon with frequent environmental dangers, mobs that must be focus targeted, encounters that ask you to truly consider your rate of attack and perhaps even bank resources for burst phases, cleanse certain debuffs, kite certain mobs, has some seriously dangerous trash pulls, and is generally unlikely to be cleared fresh without at least one wipe."

"Eww! Sounds like WoW! Burn it! Burn it down!"

*The XIV dungeon Pharos Sirius has been critically nerfed.*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

Back in 1.0 we had this.
AV back then would make people cry compared to how easy it is now.

I wouldn't mind them back, but I generally wouldn't mind more content in general.

---

1.0 dungeon systems were frankly a lot better than anything since Heavensward.

It's a shame the actual map layouts were atrocious.