I think I need go into great detail why tanks have bad game design

I feel need make new post and to explain why without straying from the path but coming at you at cold dark-facts

when you play a tank there abilities are put into two categories one is combat related categories. draw a circle on piece of paper then draw a line in-between both notice that circle is 50/50

what does this 50/50 present. what tanks do over all - Holding aggro with means of damage and other side damage mitigation. now new expansion we are using storm blood

a New System is added so now we have break circle into 3s we have just damage. taking 45% of the tank circle 35% damage migration and holding aggro only 10%

when we reach shadowbringers tanks some feeling like tanks completely why cause 70% of that circle is dps abilities 28% damage migration and 2% of it is holding threat.

we keeping raid utility out of question here cause as far i understand all tanks should offer something in class design saying that we leave that alone

can you see the issue here. there is an imbalance inflex damage abilities that really shouldn't be there but there are people who will defend such abilities cause why there fun to use. there not as boring as other counter parts even they aren't important when you tank ya sure its nice have nice damage numbers but let me remind you. that your tank first damage comes second.

If your a good tank you must see the truth in this inflex. your class is like a coke bottle fixing to explode upon opening don't mean that in a good way. good players be like well no need punish me i like a lot dps but other players be like hey please help tanks do more tank things

this game design limits what else tanks can do? watch is sad. never branch out try new things always one or the other new version of already existing ability. this is bad. why is this bad. simply put why give someone copy of something they already used 4 other expansions

time tank devs get creative . not just relay on animation team make there abilities look cool. tanks need have choice making in there kit. either stop that attack stop that ability its gonna hurt my team watch normally this would work on other attacks. but adding mechanics where tank has ability say nope would make fights interesting giving tanks 4th opinion not having low blow and shield slam be utterly useless in boss fight. would be a start however this issue that it would mean that you can skip phases that is not what im asking for. its simple fix really have bosses have attacks that kill whole party until the tank or melee dps uses low blow or leg sweep.

make a few bosses with dis design see if it works in this game. if not try something else now your not just hitting things now your starting feeling offering something to party now your being tank. this not only route they can take. tanks should have raid ulitity something put on allied party member and shield them from all incoming damage. wipe preventation. we already have few of these abilities already in the game

thinks that make up a tank are damage migration. threat. making things hit you. using cc to stop incoming attacks that can wipe or kill another member of your team. wipe preventation pushback, knock-up ground aoes that reduces damage to all that stand inside it at same time dealing over time. ground aoes that deal damage give heal over time effects to your allies. baseball bat dps/healer pushback dps lifesteal healing sustain

Here better explaining before I start let me state i don't know tanks be like ninja. but gonna point out few things. lets put paladin next to ninja.

your fast attack -> riot blade -> royal authority/rage of halone combo only damage. why is that your fight or flight cd its own single button. why doesn't royal authority give you damage bonus fight or flight does. just become you want more objective will not help you here watch one make this combo more engaging

riot blade by itself doesn't count simply cause only gives mp. before you say "wah that would be op" like to you look at other jobs that have abilities bond to there damage rotation doesn't seem broken to me one bit


do want to know why ninja is one of the best classes in game it simply cause rogue/ninja do not confuse the player by mixing stages of growth on the lifespawn of the ninja
1-50 you learn basics trick attack. hide your combo's your ninjustu gives you enough time and practice before you get heavenward content 50-60 then learn weaving dps skills in your dps rotation and keep huton active armor crush. it takes great care in teaching how to use the job well when you reach the that stage

Unfornately that can't be same for tank's your abilities are all over the place. jibbled like jigsaw puzzle. remember when dark knight first came out heavenwards was great class but boy it was a mess. paladins design back then wasn't as bad as it now. it gave you time learn these new abilities storm bringer came out it changed.

you see paladin had rework. the aoe was great idea over flash hell i love that ability no reason why we could keep the blind on are aoe or if not that watch had a cooldown circle of scorn would make sense of cos cause it has cd. and less lightly have dimishing returns

shadow bringers came out right. its just rense and repeat of the same skills. what do they offer just potency damage. look don't want the tanks be easy i dont take fun away from veteran players got see this as a problem

dps skills are nice. but isn't want tanking is about. we wanted exciting rotation we got that we have we have 2 123 rotations and 1-2 aoe rotation. thats perfectly fine. they cross the light when added holy spirit holy circle. and "Im a ultima on a paladin out dps a blm" what now am caster dps too? seriously? you could given us nice shield abilities we so post to be shield and broad. shield smash is awesome took away shield swipe giving ability anything but tank

Why are you making so many topics?

TL:DR but if my pattern recognition is correct, this is probably moot...probably Idk your topics seem very erroneous at best and incomprehensible at worst

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Originally Posted by Jirah

TL:DR but if my pattern recognition is correct, this is probably moot...probably Idk your topics seem very erroneous at best and incomprehensible at worst

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I give up at this point its like trying teach rocket science to a monkey to awesome your question my last post subject was different discussion went different direction so made a post talkin bout current direction of that post instead having replies on stuff thats already been discussed and over with

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

I give up at this point its like trying teach rocket science to a monkey

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Rocket science? Your not a visionary your just spewing word vomit

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

when you play a tank there abilities are put into two categories one is combat related categories. draw a circle on piece of paper then draw a line in-between both notice that circle is 50/50

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Can you provide your drawing?
My circle is not coming out 50/50...

The very first argument you used in the first topic I saw was.

Tanks don't use mitigation abilities, they should be removed and your 123 combo should automatically apply stacking mitigation up to 50%.

Noone wants that. That isn't an issue with bad design, that is an issue with bad players that can only be fixed at the player end.

You then backtrack that and say tanks have too many DPS abilities.

They have far fewer than an actual DPS and their rotations are much simpler so that they can focus more on the tanking.

You have now said that tanks should have more control over the boss, stuns, interrupts etc.

YES, that is what most tanks want, more control over the boss and it's actions...HOWEVER, not at the cost of dumbing down tank gameplay. Tanks are fine where they are in the mitigation/damage skills department, but because everything is already so simple, it need another layer.

Also, how is tank levelling a jumbled mess? You say HW DRK was bad, but that is considered the best itteration of DRK. You say PLD abilities change each expansion so you dont get a chance to learn them, however that is not true. You start with Fast > Riot > Rage, you then add in Goring blade every 3, Rage gets upgraded to Royal, you gain a magic phase, which you use between Goring Blades, you get Atonement which replaces one of your royal authority combos, then yo uget a magic finisher. It all just comes to gether quite neatly really.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Can you provide your drawing?
My circle is not coming out 50/50...

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Yeah I got nothing for you there. I am guessing they mean draw a circle, put a line through it and voila, 50% of Tank gameplay is DPS, 50% of Tank gameplay is Mitigation. I think. I dunno, two lines later they then talk about their new system:

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

a New System is added so now we have break circle into 3s we have just damage. taking 45% of the tank circle 35% damage migration and holding aggro only 10%

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A brilliant new system where a full circle adds up to 90%, and the remaining 10% is presumably dedicated to learning their aforementioned rocket science, maybe to help in deciphering all the broken English in the post.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

I give up at this point its like trying teach rocket science to a monkey to awesome your question my last post subject was different discussion went different direction so made a post talkin bout current direction of that post instead having replies on stuff thats already been discussed and over with

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Your posts are often verging on incomprehensible, and those bits that do make any sense in terms of actual English sentences still have very little relevance to FFXIV that can be garnered. You aren't a misunderstood genius, besides inside your mind. Since you're posting on a character with a maximum level of 51, there isn't any evidence that you should be given even a scrap of a benefit of the doubt, and while I would usually attribute such terrible and incomprehensible language structure to English being a language other than your first, I'm not actually convinced that is the case with you.

If it IS the case that English isn't your first language, please take the feedback that your ideas are being conveyed in a nearly incomprehensible manner a lot of the time if your target audience are native English speakers.

Thank God the devs will literally never EVER take your ideas. Hey I have an idea, let's go back to ARR when tanks were as dull as dishwater. That'll be fun! If I went back and played ARR paladin having played all the tanks through the years and especially in ShB, I'd Endwalker myself right off a cliff.

I stopped reading this persons posts when they said PLD has Ultima and does more DPS than a BLM.

Sometimes I feel like someone is training an AI using the FF forums. Some of these posts are just...idk, I...it's like that time MS unleashed Tay upon the internet....

(Google Microsoft Tay, if you hadn't heard of it before)

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Originally Posted by Ryan77k

Thank God the devs will literally never EVER take your ideas. Hey I have an idea, let's go back to ARR when tanks were as dull as dishwater. That'll be fun! If I went back and played ARR paladin having played all the tanks through the years and especially in ShB, I'd Endwalker myself right off a cliff.

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Lets be honest, besides shiny cool animations Shadowbringers tank gameplay is as enticing as ARR was, perhaps even less since you had more wriggle room to play as tank even if animations werent so cool (and that War 2.0 was mess because they scaled real bad and went from "need no healer" while leveling to "no healer can keep them alive" once they reached max level)

I dont know a single tank (neither healers but thats another issue) that is happy with in their general current state after Gunbreaker wedding night was over and many just switched to dps because tank gameplay is boring to the point the meme "use your tank stance press 1-2-3 and blame the healer if you die" is becoming scarily real with some jobs

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

I dont know a single tank (neither healers but thats another issue) that is happy with in their general current state after Gunbreaker wedding night was over

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Well, you know me, so that's one ;)
(And I never tried GNB either for what that may or may not be worth)

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Well, you know me, so that's one ;)
(And I never tried GNB either for what that may or may not be worth)

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Dang you got me xD

But today you can release a job that plays with a single key and someone WILL enjoy it.

At the start of Shadowbringers there was a serious lack of healers due to many becoming bored with how stale healing got making healer the most in demand role, but when the Gunbreaker wave was over many tanks left as well and we went back to "Tanks needed" most of the time with "Healers needed" from time to time which shows something is not working because i really doubt that magically we had an influx of healers and more that the tanks numbers dropped as well to the point they were below healers again

SE should focus on making tanking and healing fun instead of putting more carrots on the stick (aka tank/healer mounts amongst other things) to motivate to play on roles few people enjoy but that they are mandatory to the party

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Dang you got me xD

But today you can release a job that plays with a single key and someone WILL enjoy it.

At the start of Shadowbringers there was a serious lack of healers due to many becoming bored with how stale healing got making healer the most in demand role, but when the Gunbreaker wave was over many tanks left as well and we went back to "Tanks needed" most of the time with "Healers needed" from time to time which shows something is not working because i really doubt that magically we had an influx of healers and more that the tanks numbers dropped as well to the point they were below healers again

SE should focus on making tanking and healing fun instead of putting more carrots on the stick (aka tank/healer mounts amongst other things) to motivate to play on roles few people enjoy but that they are mandatory to the party

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I can confirm this. I think ShB innovated storytelling in MMORPG's as a whole but failed in other intricate aspects such as gameplay, namely tanks and healers. I don't know what the statistics are but I'd be very curious to see wether or not tanking as a whole is thriving or basically dying, given the changes and all. To add to this, I essentially unscubscribed for longer periods because of the content draught and well, the tank changes.

What they have to do is to solve two problems: first, how can they make tanking interactive and fun while being accessible to the broader playerbase? It is possible, but I imagine the developers got alot of other problems already.

Sometimes I wish I could unsee posts like these.

Also:

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Lets be honest, besides shiny cool animations Shadowbringers tank gameplay is as enticing as ARR was, perhaps even less since you had more wriggle room to play as tank even if animations werent so cool (and that War 2.0 was mess because they scaled real bad and went from "need no healer" while leveling to "no healer can keep them alive" once they reached max level)

I dont know a single tank (neither healers but thats another issue) that is happy with in their general current state after Gunbreaker wedding night was over and many just switched to dps because tank gameplay is boring to the point the meme "use your tank stance press 1-2-3 and blame the healer if you die" is becoming scarily real with some jobs

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I'm pretty happy with Dark Knight, mind you I've never played Gunbreaker but I'm having a blast playing DRK and I actually enjoy the relative simplicity of the job.

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Originally Posted by Sooru

Sometimes I wish I could unsee posts like these.

Also:



I'm pretty happy with Dark Knight, mind you I've never played Gunbreaker but I'm having a blast playing DRK and I actually enjoy the relative simplicity of the job.

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Dont misunderstand me, im not saying having a job with a simple gameplay bad, problem is when every job is. Dark Knight is basically Warrior with dark effects on their animations, thats how much those 2 jobs overlap mechanic wise, Gunbreaker has the continuation combo as their defining factor (and after a while you realize is basically button bloat each 25 seconds), and Paladin is the tank that retain the most flavour but is quite rigid and with the same core problems as the tank role (non existant aggro management, press defensive cd on time against the choreographied atack to not die/be a burden to your healers and thats it you have mastered tank, theres nothing left you can improve)

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Dont misunderstand me, im not saying having a job with a simple gameplay bad, problem is when every job is. Dark Knight is basically Warrior with dark effects on their animations, thats how much those 2 jobs overlap mechanic wise, Gunbreaker has the continuation combo as their defining factor (and after a while you realize is basically button bloat each 25 seconds), and Paladin is the tank that retain the most flavour but is quite rigid and with the same core problems as the tank role (non existant aggro management, press defensive cd on time against the choreographied atack to not die/be a burden to your healers and thats it you have mastered tank, theres nothing left you can improve)

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But is the right direction to make Dark Knight more complicated in order to separate it from Warrior?

And is Dark Knight the class that needs changes or is it Warrior? Or is it both? Are these issues exclusive to Dark Knight or do they apply to the tank role as a whole?

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Originally Posted by Sooru

But is the right direction to make Dark Knight more complicated in order to separate it from Warrior?

And is Dark Knight the class that needs changes or is it Warrior? Or is it both? Are these issues exclusive to Dark Knight or do they apply to the tank role as a whole?

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DRK use to be a complety diferent job before SHB, WAR and DRK was like night and day, so the short answer is yes DRK is the one that needs to be changed since is DRK the one that has copy and paste literally the core gameplay of WAR in SHB and turn it on what it is right now a WAR clone with a small oGCD window and WAR did have this design since SB years before SHB.

DRK use to be with WAR the most complex tanks with PLD being the most simple one, totally diferent in dps gameplay, considering this was taken from those who loved DRK before SHB for years i would say yes it's have to be, it's nothing personal against your opinion about current DRK im glad you enjoy it but the current desing represent a problem that not only affect DRK but WAR too and was DRK the one that has been mutilated to become what is right now so it's pretty logic some ppl like me want it back as a unique job again specially if resemble how it was before SHB madness.

DRK has much more in common with MCH gameplay than it does WAR.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DRK has much more in common with MCH gameplay than it does WAR.

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How can you say something so controversial, yet so true ?

Well it's obvious the designer who made the WAR rework in 4.2 is the same person who did the carnage of DRK and MCH, that man have an absurd obsesión with spam the same skill 5 times in a row for some reason and make everything work around that or have nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by shao32

DRK use to be a complety diferent job before SHB, WAR and DRK was like night and day, so the short answer is yes DRK is the one that needs to be changed since is DRK the one that has copy and paste literally the core gameplay of WAR in SHB and turn it on what it is right now a WAR clone with a small oGCD window and WAR did have this design since SB years before SHB.

DRK use to be with WAR the most complex tanks with PLD being the most simple one, totally diferent in dps gameplay, considering this was taken for those who loved DRK before SHB for years i would say yes it's have to be, it's nothing personal against your opinion about current DRK im glad you enjoy it but the current desing represent a problem that not only affect DRK but WAR too and was DRK the one that has been mutilated to become what is right now so it's pretty logic some ppl like me want it back as a unique job again specially if resemble how it was before SHB madness.

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To be fair, the 2 jobs I've played the most so far (Monk and Dark Knight) both have abilities that create a repetitive spam pattern (Monk's Perfect Balance makes it spam Dragon Kick and Bootshine, and Dark Knight's Delirium makes it spam Bloodspiller). That part I can agree is boring and serves no real purpose. I've proposed some changes in another thread and now I'm curious as to what else could be changed about Delirium and/or Dark Knight as a whole to make the job more interesting.

Monk is getting a well deserved rework on Endwalker after several expansions of being the most forgotten job (right now is the least dps job played because its a complete disaster and kept messing it even more with each expansion), lets cross our fingers they dont screw it up again

SE said that War was the ideal of tanking they aspired, but that was when the other tanks had serious shortcomings

Pld had the lowest damage, was useless against magic and great against physical which make the job struggle a lot during Heavensward because War and Drk were far better
Drk had good consistent damage, was great as a main tank, but nos so good as an offtank, great against magic and average against physical, but they apeared during a magic damage raid meta so they were godly during Heavensward
War had the best damage in huge bursts (during those windows they hit harder than many damage jobs), good at main tank and offtank and good defence against magic and physical with the best "dont die" skill since the cd was really low compared to the others.

Thats a very simplificated version there were many other things as well and even War got neutered a lot since that statement

Rly unpopular opinion I think, but I actually miss Dark Arts spam for DRK.
I think it'd be really cool if it was how you used Bloodspiller, if it powered up your attack and turned Souleater into Bloodspiller or something.
I remember people complaining a lot about it back in Heavensward tho but I thought it was cool.

I also miss Scourge.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Well it's obvious the designer who made the WAR rework in 4.2 is the same person who did the carnage of DRK and MCH, that man have an absurd obsesión with spam the same skill 5 times in a row for some reason and make everything work around that or have nothing at all.

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There's a fairly vocal group of people who want to turn combos into just one button too like in PvP.
Just spamming one button isn't fun.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Rly unpopular opinion I think, but I actually miss Dark Arts spam for DRK.

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you're not the only one, because people dumbing the conversation about it down to spam was and is disingenuous. it played into DRK's fast paced resource management game and rewarded planning ahead.

people relentlessly memeing about DA is exactly why DRK is the way it is now - garbage.

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Originally Posted by KatsuraJun

you're not the only one, because people dumbing the conversation about it down to spam was and is disingenuous. it played into DRK's fast paced resource management game and rewarded planning ahead.

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Maybe spam was a poor choice of words, I remember people complaining about it tho but you're right that it wasn't really spam.
By that same token Edge of Shadow would be spam too but you go dry really fast if you spam it.
I think there's an argument to be made that it didn't feel impactful enough, I kinda feel that way about Forbidden Chakra on MNK too.
If I am unlocking Chakras to charge up this supposedly rly epic ability then it kinda feels underwhelming when it doesn't even hit that hard.
Or uh, Leaden Fist...
Seriously, our level 1 ability is our big hitter just wtf.
Leaden Fist doesn't even change the animation or anything it's really underwhelming and doesn't feel powerful enough imo.

This is why I think Souleater being upgraded to Bloodspiller for example with Dark Arts would be really cool, because you'd feel and see that.
And even if the potency is good I think that actually seeing it is important too.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Maybe spam was a poor choice of words, I remember people complaining about it tho but you're right that it wasn't really spam.
By that same token Edge of Shadow would be spam too but you go dry really fast if you spam it.
I think there's an argument to be made that it didn't feel impactful enough, I kinda feel that way about Forbidden Chakra on MNK too.
If I am unlocking Chakras to charge up this supposedly rly epic ability then it kinda feels underwhelming when it doesn't even hit that hard.

This is why I think Souleater being upgraded to Bloodspiller for example with Dark Arts would be really cool, because you'd feel and see that.
And even if the potency is good I think that actually seeing it is important too.

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I can agree with something like a visual change once you use DA to upgrade abilities, because that's something that felt slightly underwhelming about DA from the very start in 2.0 - by SB I was already used to it at that point tbh. but if we got something like Dark Mind upgraded to a cooler animation, Souleater upgraded to Bloodspiller, etc. yeah that'd be pretty cool. but those are just visual aspects, when the thing that really made me quit drk and barely raid in 5.x is the gameplay. honest to god I was perfectly fine with the way it was in SB. in the interest of speed, i'll summarize what I said about 4.x DRK in the megathread:

-TBN: wants you to have less than 50 blood so you don't cap, but enough MP to cast
-Delirium: wants you to have 50 or more blood, but almost no MP so you don't cap

this dichotomy, along with random skills like CnS costing MP and DA Dark Mind, or Salted Earth generating Blood back then is what formed the core idea of DRK in SB. you had to balance these two resources out properly, and DA was the glue that tied it all together. it let you control how much MP you wanted to dump in preparation for your upcoming CDs or mechanics that might have demanded your shield.

use too little DA and you'll be mashing DA every ogcd window during delirium and still cap on MP, while pushing back all your other ogcds that may be going off cooldown. in a way, SB DRK turned even the ogcd window into a resource.
use too much DA and you won't have MP for TBN, CnS, Dark Mind, etc when you need it.

but now we have a job that has literally all of that stripped away. i don't think it's an accident that even TBN no longer gives blood, and instead a free cast of edge/flood. it was an intentional attempt to make it simpler so you don't have to really think about it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DRK has much more in common with MCH gameplay than it does WAR.

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MCH is so god dam shallow it can blend in to any bloody rotation, only difference being they need to do more besides 1-2-3

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

There's a fairly vocal group of people who want to turn combos into just one button too like in PvP.
Just spamming one button isn't fun.

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It depends. We have to consider that button bloat is an issue exclusive to console players. A PC player has alot of liberties in how they want to play, a console player doesn't. They are limited to their controller, whereas a PC player has more options.

Theoretically it's a feasible concept, but it's not something I feel the developers should integrate into every job. You have to get visually used to the fact that your eyes are concentrated on one ability per time, not the hotbar and actions as a whole. For me personally, I prefer looking at 4 actions I placed next to each other as opposed to having them all contained in one slot.

If it's not genuinely coming from a place of struggle though, seriously git gud. This is what happens when you merge Candy Crush players with seasoned Dark Souls veterans in one pot. Nothing good will come out of it. Ever.

Personally the rigid combos (aka those which have no variation) are outright bloat, because why the hell are you gonna press them in a different order? Imagine tanks having 3 different combos each with 1 key instead of pressing 1-2-3, the number of keys is the same but suddenly you have 9 different skills where you had before 3.

One thing is to not do it on jobs with branched combos (like after pressing 1 you choose between 2-3 and after choosing 2 you have 4-5 and choosing 3 you press 6-7 for example), another is to think it adds complexity pressing the GNB continuation combo button bloat, the DRK 1-2-3 only combo, or the long ass Dragoon rigid combos just to mention a few

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Originally Posted by Shin96

If it's not genuinely coming from a place of struggle though, seriously git gud. This is what happens when you merge Candy Crush players with seasoned Dark Souls veterans in one pot. Nothing good will come out of it. Ever.

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I like this quote as the casual bar is mobile game crap and sure it’s a gold mine praying upon basic human intuition or very short term gratification, but it is not fun. And I doubt FF14 has a E for everyone type of slogan.