Now I don't see it how often talked about, but it has been a uncommon complaint how most jobs in this game usually just do the same amount of damage no matter the bosses and monsters involved when you're playing a synced instance or raiding and the overall damage from your group is always going to be same even if you're all playing at your best. Even having the current high end Gear provides just a minimum boost and nothing more. I mean the high end crafting gear seems to have more of a noticeable effect than the battle gear
Unless its POTD and HOH (that just kind of nullifies it all) or your a BLM (insert BLM memes here).
Also the over world monsters being largely weaker...and well nothing to write home about as any job can just curbstomp those.
So the question is why not give bosses and monsters weaknesses and resistances depending on the job being used to make all the jobs more interesting?
For a Flan for example its weak against Magical Ranged DPS via spells, but highly resistant to Melee and Ranged DPS.
Sure this "may create some inevitable issues" because people are bound to block others in PFs because they want certain jobs for raids mostly (which they already do to some extent).
In dungeon runs this shouldn't be a issue because you have the usual 3-4 bosses + mobs that will all have their resistances and weaknesses.
In a way it might get players to play other jobs so they can learn to be comfortable playing said jobs if needed.
Like for me I'm always playing Dragoon, but I found a boss was weak to Samurais and said party prefers a Samurai I could try to get out of my comfort zone to try it out.
That is just my 2 cents, during my time playing this game I really did notice that no matter the job that it will always be the same amount of time and damage no matter what you're fighting and that it seems it be Gear+PlayerSkill dependent more than anything else which to me isn't all that fun if there is no Job+bonus damage at play.
This isn't just my opinion, others expressed that most jobs in any given group roughly do the same amount of overall damage no matter what, emphasis on roughly as the numbers can slightly vary but not by very much.
One last thing on how would you solve the raiding aspect...well
I believe if certain jobs were given buffs that allowed lets say a Magical Ranged DPS gave a Melee DPS to bypass the Flan's resistance bonus, but only do normal damage that it will offer more dynamic and fun strategies in Roulettes, and raiding.
Maybe this isn't the kind of game for that, I know a long time ago there were Elemental Materia and that didn't work out. I just wish the jobs in the game were not all samey you know? Its the problem of the journey always being the same and it becomes less rewarding the more you do it over and over again.
I'm alittle bit all over the place with this text, but I hope I made sense.
The problem with jobs?
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08-06-2021, 01:15 PMKaliestoThe problem with jobs?
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08-06-2021, 01:22 PMEnjuden
They did this already. Got rid of it because people would lock out jobs completely, or some are locked out completely (Melee locked to Dragoon/Ninja only until Shadowbringers for instance). Also seeing the post shows you or whoever else you're speaking for has no idea what they are talking about when it comes to damage. If they're doing the same damage, then it is more than likely that the classes either are doing similar (which only two of them do on dps jobs, tanks is similar), or B. One of the dps is not as good as they think they are. Inb4 Dancer is one of the jobs being compared to despite being the lowest in the game.
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08-06-2021, 01:36 PMKaliestoQuote:
Originally Posted by Enjuden
Just it is a complaint I've seen here or there, they accuse all DPS just amounting to the same overall damage per raid or dungeon raid if all playing at their best. Basically each job being just a copy-paste with nothing dynamic about them other than just a different set skills that lead to the same overall damage output as a group again IF your whole group plays at their best. No bonus damage vs slashing, piercing,etc , elemental weaknesses, no nothing.
Dancer even if considered the lowest will always contribute to the same overall group damage "roughly" minus very few points.
The point I'm making I really do wish Bosses and Monsters overall had more strategy to them over than move over here to not get hit by mechanics. -
08-06-2021, 01:38 PMAyuhraI'm a Dancer main. We contribute to the group damage via buffing our dance partners and the rest of raid. In a group of players of equal skill and gear if my personal output is at the top of anyone's damage charts something is going very wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
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08-06-2021, 01:40 PMKrotoanThis very much used to be a thing and it became far too divisive. Certain jobs used to make mobs weaker to their type of damage and things had elemental weaknesses.. so it's pretty much a matter of the method they tried pulled away from their vision of how the game should be played, I.E. everyone should be able to play the game as whatever they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
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08-06-2021, 01:43 PMKaliestoOh so that what happened? Well if the playerbase spoke long ago on it then I can't really argue against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
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08-06-2021, 01:49 PMKrotoanTo be absolutely fair.. i don't remember it very well because at the time I wasn't super committed to any sort of build or keeping track of an actual rotation (I was very much just playing through the story and watching stuff in wonder), but I don't think it was like player pushback, the devs just noticed that people started to gravitate towards certain comps and "builds" VERY heavily and that's not what they wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
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08-06-2021, 01:56 PMEnjudenIt is a complaint of ignorance and emotion rather than raw data. The numbers are clear for anyone to see if they bothered to look, and the data would show the majority of players refuse to play at that level. If they're talking max damage only, then sure, though the reality is that if you're not doing World Firsts, you're not going to see max numbers from people, and even then you won't see it unless it's the top of the top. If they want to have more strategy, they should start doing EX/Savage without echo and not undersynching it. Otherwise that's all that they are going to get since SE refuses to do more than that for the majority of content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
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08-06-2021, 02:03 PMRymi64
Yea it led to dragoon always being part of them team so then you had a range physical then slashing debuff with warrior and of course u had ninja for trick.
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08-06-2021, 02:15 PMJojoyaLeaning heavily toward certain comps is effectively player pushback even if it's through actions as opposed to words. A lot of times what we think we want isn't really what we're looking for in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
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08-06-2021, 02:16 PMVyrerusIt had been in the game since 2.0, but during 2.0 there weren't as many jobs, so only one job or another would get left out of a full party with all different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
Come the addition of Ninja, groups started to shun weaker jobs like DRG even more heavily than they had in the past, since there was more choice.
Come 3.0 a true, "Meta" developed after a few tweaks to the Heavensward jobs, resulting in the mathematically highest DPS composition being a WAR, DRK, NIN, DRG, MCH, BRD, AST, and SCH. This was due to WAR bringing slashing debuff, increasing its, the DRK's, and the NIN's DPS. The NIN brought Trick Attack increasing everyone's DPS. The MCH brought Hypercharge, same thing as Trick Attack back then. BRD brought Battle Voice and Foe's Requiem, increasing the Healer's DPS as well as NIN's Ninjutsu damage. DRG brought Disembowl, originally the piercing debuff, increasing its damage as well as BRD's, along with Battle Litany, which was originally a group wide +20% crit rate. SCH brought Selene who originally increased Spell Speed/Skill Speed for the whole party, providing a very small increase to overall raid DPS, allowing everyone to fit one more GCD into burst windows. AST brought Spread Balance, increasing everyone's DPS. DRK brought higher DPS than PLD, and it allowed the comp to shun MNK, since original Delirium did the same INT down, reducing magical raidwides, that Dragon Kick used to do.
Combining these jobs allowed for exceedingly powerful burst windows, allowing fights to be cleared far more quickly than any other composition. It carried on into 4.0, largely unchanged except PLD > DRK(and WAR too, but slashing debuff) now, until they buffed SMN's Devotion buff, causing it to actually replace MCH in the comp a patch or so after they added UCoB iirc.
This was what lead to all content creators for XIV talking about, "The Meta" for the better part of 2016/2017, and that discussion didn't die down until one of the World First groups beat UCoB with a DRK in the comp instead of a WAR. Note that the rest of that meta group was unchanged, merely resulting in infinitesimally lower DPS for the NIN, while everyone else in the party's DPS remained largely at meta levels. However, public perception swayed to, "Meta doesn't matter, see!" so the Devs moved towards making meta comp less pivotal.
A meta comp will always still exist given inherent imbalance for rotational design differences, but it's less important now than ever before. -
08-06-2021, 02:21 PMKrotoanI'd consider pushback to be complaints and resistance, not just user data. Like the players weren't resisting the change, they were just doing what the conditions dictated to be optimal and the Developers looked at the data showing that only certain jobs were running the endgame content and went.. "hmm.. that's not what we want." BUT.. again.. maybe there was actual resistance on the forum and in social media, but at the time those things mattered I wasn't very active in those circles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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08-06-2021, 04:41 PMFyrebrand
I don't really see how this would make jobs more "interesting" or add any element of strategy. It seems like it would just be the game telling you what jobs to play for what content. Imagine queuing in Duty Finder for a roulette, and you find out all your damage is resisted by the boss. Okay...? There's nothing you can do about that, so how does that change your strategy at all? You just play the same way, but get punished with a slower fight. Or conversely, if you lucked out and picked the "right" job, you get arbitrarily rewarded for nothing. Not to mention, the risk of the "wrong" DPS getting kicked from the group.
Even that idea you described, where a magical DPS can apply a buff to a physical fighter and mitigate the penalty... so, they do that, and then what? They just do the fight as normal? Seems like we didn't really add anything of substance. Help me out if I am missing something or not understanding what is being asked for. -
08-06-2021, 04:51 PMVippidyP
Imo I'd prefer a less balanced game than a more stale one.
If they were more willing to design encounters in unique ways it's not too hard to imagine a world where different jobs are good at different things, which the "all on one character" system lends itself perfectly too... -
08-06-2021, 06:53 PMSeraphor
They do this in Bozja though.
Eureka had elemental wheel, Bozja has Magic/Physical dichotomy. -
08-06-2021, 08:46 PMJuzjuzzBut in eureka everyone had the same elemental wheel. It didn't change how you played depending in witch jobs are here. Same with bozja, i think there is a lost action to deal with the magic/physical dmg. It's not like it changed your rotation or anything. In stormblood brds were happy with a drg (if i'm not wrong) because of piercing dmg, anything else was worse and it's not like the drg had a suddent change of playstyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
But having to know what your opponent instead of just doing your rotation and dodging AOEs is less boring, i agree with that.
The biggest problem with making certain job "worse" against certain type ennemies is the illusion of choice. If playing drg is better than playing nin against a dragon, the only choice added is "you want better dmg or worse dmg ?" add the fact that the player doesn't like drg and it becomes frustrating. The normal response to this is "i want bigger dmg" after all. -
08-06-2021, 09:06 PMStriderShinryu
While I can understand the desire for jobs to be a little more different from each other, the proof is in the pudding right here on the forums without even having to go into the game. We have many, many threads where players already complain that others don't play optimally and efficiently, even in casual content, so it's not hard to see that it wouldn't go over particularly well if there actually was a true meta established again where there legitimately were clearly best jobs or comps for certain things.
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08-06-2021, 09:18 PMPayadopaExactly. It's not like you can't switch on the fly anyway. And in my group we all play what we feel like anyway. Nobody cares about the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by VippidyP
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08-06-2021, 10:08 PMkaynide
It’s all just a vestige of FF11 and 1.0 roots..and to a lesser extent, Dungeons and Dragons.
Such a system requires extensive balancing and robustness to be useful, otherwise people just meta it to choose limited “best” options (see Guildwars 2), which makes it simply illusion of choice.
At the end of the day, simple but elegant is best when development time is limited. No need to make more work for yourself for little profit, right? -
08-07-2021, 04:06 PMAsari5
i dont really get why you think its bad to habe the same raiddmg from every job. isnt that the maingoal in balamcimg jobs? differences in playstyle? yes an absolute must.... but differences in overall raiddmg? its a no go
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08-07-2021, 04:25 PMItMeIt's not just that the playerbase spoke against it, but the devs didn't care for it either..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
We used to have elemental weaknesses/resistances too, but the devs saw people abusing it to cheese content in ways that made them increasingly unhappy, like parties of Black Mages loading up on materia that boosted damage for whatever element the boss was weak to and just burning it down before it could do mechanics.
The breaking point was when it became the regular to rock 1 healer 7 dps parties on Rhamu EX where a single Titan Egi tanked. After that they didn't even wait for a patch to remove the elemental wheel, they just hot fixed it out. -
08-07-2021, 07:22 PMVyrerusWhat? There was no elemental wheel in 2.0. You're likely thinking of SMN used to have access to Thunder 1, allowing it to have the highest single target and AOE damage in 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
Titan Egi didn't have an elemental advantage over Ramuh(though he traditionally would). Because pets took damage at a reduced level because they used to have HP back then, and SE wanted to take it easy on pet users, Titan Egi circumvented the Shock Strike Orb gathering tank mechanic, and it was beautiful. Instead of taking 17k from Shock Strike, Titan Egi took maybe 3k. Glorious. -
08-07-2021, 07:47 PMRannieThe elemental Weakness/resistance was in 1.0 and they got rid of it... we were able to throw stats and stuff into elemental as well back in 1.0Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
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08-07-2021, 08:31 PMVyrerusYeah, I've heard 1.0 had a neat thing with MNK's fists doing elemental damage, and magical system more akin to FFXI's. Just like, it was most certainly phased out by 2.0. Heh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rannie
People did like to stack casters in 2.0 though, what with Foe's Requiem being insanely good and specifically for them. -
08-07-2021, 08:43 PMPayadopaI really dislike that argument. Every game follows a certain rule set, therefore if I game the system I can speed run the win state. The illusion can be a powerful tool if done right and your argument just assumes that every single player will do either number crunching or look up a guide and therefore nobody else is allowed (the illusion of) freedom. That's a very reductive way of playing, to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
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08-07-2021, 09:02 PMRaikaiIt is the nature of the beast. Whenever they introduce this kind of utility to MMOs like this, it's inevitable that certain player options will be locked off content. Players love to min-max even when it isn't really needed... I honestly can't think of a MMO that pushed something like this and didn't change at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
The best you can bet or wish for, I suppose, would be more of non-detrimental (ie. Curing Waltz), personal (ie. Manaward) or niche (ie. Holy's stun) utilities. Basically anything else that would provide direct dps boosts. -
08-07-2021, 09:06 PMWavaryen
I hated the game when it was like this.
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08-08-2021, 12:12 AMItMeAh, my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
You're correct, I'm mistakenly conflating a few ideas. -
08-08-2021, 12:43 AMRymi64Nobody cares about the meta because 1) there really isnt a meta and 2) playing with friends is a different situation from playing with pugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payadopa
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08-08-2021, 01:31 AMForteNightshadeBut the community as a whole does. If you made fights favor certain jobs enough it made switches a noticeable damage increase, people will start mandating it. Another problem is gearing secondary or tertiary jobs can be much harder. Case in point, you can't easily swap between the Melee since, for some silly reason, they don't all share gear. Granted, you also have the Casters where only one of them likes Spell Speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payadopa
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08-08-2021, 02:18 AMJuzjuzzYou have to lvl up the job and farm some gear before even thinking about swapping. Not everyone does that or even wants to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
And i think even if we can swap jobs easly, it's cool to have a main job you can play all the time without having to change because others want you to (and even now having secondary job is really cool because you can adapt IF YOU WANT TO). In a group you know it won't cause any problem but with ppl who don't know and don't care it's not the same story. -
08-08-2021, 02:57 AMDerio
Glad they got rid of that bs. Remember when people would exclude jobs like PLD in 3.0? Devs learned that lesson.
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08-08-2021, 03:51 AMTitania40
To the OP, yeah that is a nice system to have in an RPG... when it's a single player or the non-casters can just casually pull out a different weapon. When I'm playing Final Fantasy X it's perfectly fine that Tidus can barely scratch a flan but Lulu can easily one shot it. It gives you reasons for each character in the party, times where you might prefer Waka but perhaps you need to use Auron instead. When I'm playing DDO it's acceptable that some enemies barely take any damage from my monk's unarmed attacks. It only takes a second or two (at most) to switch from unarmed attacks to using kama after all, or to switch from a steel sword to one made out of magical silver to bypass that enemy's damage reduction.
On the other hand, here in FFXIV my pugilist can only use her fists as weapons. If an enemy is all but immune to bludgeoning damage but can be hurt by slashing weapons, I can't actually change weapons after the fight is started. Doing so would require also changing my class. Do I have that class unlocked? And if so, what level is it? Does it even let you change classes while in a dungeon? No, seriously. Does it let you do that? I honestly don't know, because I've never tried.