Endwalker Sch Question

Since we are getting a 4th healer and it’s been talked about that Whm and Sage will be the selfish high dps healers with no party support and Ast and Sch will be the party support healers. Will Sch’s buffs be on par with Ast? Currently Ast has the best buffs of the healers and sch just has good ole chain stratagem. So will Sch get more party support buffs to be on par with Ast come Endwalker? Ast gives out card buffs every 30 seconds with draw and another every 2 minutes with sleeve draw and buff the entire party every 2 minutes with divination.

But then I’m thinking if Sch gets good party buffs too then won’t Ast and Sch be meta for raids and Whm and Sage will be just prog? I know SE doesn’t want there to be meta anymore so yeah. So many questions.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

it’s been talked about that Whm and Sage will be the selfish high dps healers with no party support and Ast and Sch will be the party support healers

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I have not heard/seen that.
Do you have a link to the interview?

For now I have just seen the pure healer VS shield healer but no mention of buffs and DPS.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

I have not heard/seen that.
Do you have a link to the interview?

For now I have just seen the pure healer VS shield healer but no mention of buffs and DPS.

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From the sage reveal in February:
https://i.imgur.com/6X4UAnn.png

Ah right. Cole Eryx thought that this meant that SGE has an ability which gives a self buff that's consumed when you do certain abilities. He compared the spell effects between the SGE reveal and the benchmark, and found that despite using what seemed to be the same abilities, the effects were massively different.

The single target shield, and AOE attack in particular.

Doesn't mean they're selfish healers or something. Just that they have some sort of mechanic where some of their abilities work differently depending on certain conditions, which is an interesting idea, but we'll have to wait to hear more before coming to any real conclusion.

We literally know nothing about how Sage plays so calm down.

That being said, SCH makes up for their lesser party buffs compared to AST with their higher personal damage. The 3 healers, in terms of damage output, are very balanced as of current patch (5.5).

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Originally Posted by Aeos

We literally know nothing about how Sage plays so calm down.

That being said, SCH makes up for their lesser party buffs compared to AST with their higher personal damage. The 3 healers, in terms of damage output, are very balanced as of current patch (5.5).

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I get it. I’m just assuming because the community is saying Whm and Sage will be the personal high dos healers while ast and sch will be the party support healers. You’re right though we don’t know enough about Sage to know if they will not have any party support yet.

I don't see any reason to assume that'll be a purpose-built dichotomy for Healers to be honest. SQUENIX has seemingly assumed so far that Healers don't have to DPS in content, so it's unlikely that they plan around their damage output as a primary balancing measure. Additionally, the 'buff their own magic' part of Sage could just as easily refer to buffs to their healing/defensive abilities. I could be wrong and maybe the devs will finally come to understand the importance of damage dealing for Healing classes, but it doesn't really fit their MO so far.

They should do something like this:

WHM = more personal dps / no group dps buffs
AST = less personal dps / group dps buffs
SAG= more personal dps / no group dps buffs
SCH= less personal dps / group dps buffs

Despite that, I think defensive and tactical utility buffs should be something relevant for every healer.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

SQUENIX has seemingly assumed so far that Healers don't have to DPS in content, so it's unlikely that they plan around their damage output as a primary balancing measure.

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SE clearly cares about balancing healer rDPS. This is why Malefic has lower potency than Glare. SE also made job changes during Shadowbringers to achieve better healer rDPS balance. And I doubt they assume that healers don't have to DPS, because they released content that cannot be cleared without healer DPS.

Sage probably just gets cleric stance and probably a foul ability just like WHM.

I'd be genuinely impressed is Sage is going to be as "original" in combat as the rest of the Healers.

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Originally Posted by BungleBear

SE clearly cares about balancing healer rDPS. This is why Malefic has lower potency than Glare. SE also made job changes during Shadowbringers to achieve better healer rDPS balance. And I doubt they assume that healers don't have to DPS, because they released content that cannot be cleared without healer DPS.

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To be exact, I think only part of SE cares about healer DPS, and that's the parts designing the raids. Whereas while they do have at least a bit of input in job design, the ones doing that part clearly thinks that the best way to equalize the three healers was to simply take away their offensive kit.

That said, I hope that all three healers get a decent amount of utility if SE won't give us proper and interesting DPS kits. Utility can be fun to play with too. Despite how underwhelming AST's cards are when it comes to their effect, actually playing them is still kinda fun. Just not as fun as it used to be when you had to think about not only shuffling, but converting.

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Originally Posted by Dearche

To be exact, I think only part of SE cares about healer DPS, and that's the parts designing the raids. Whereas while they do have at least a bit of input in job design, the ones doing that part clearly thinks that the best way to equalize the three healers was to simply take away their offensive kit.

That said, I hope that all three healers get a decent amount of utility if SE won't give us proper and interesting DPS kits. Utility can be fun to play with too. Despite how underwhelming AST's cards are when it comes to their effect, actually playing them is still kinda fun. Just not as fun as it used to be when you had to think about not only shuffling, but converting.

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Yes aka the stormblood cards so much to do then and more solutions vs dry shadow bringer lame redraw or minor only come to think of it i totally forget that undraw exist. I do not ever use it since all of shadow bringers.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Yes aka the stormblood cards so much to do then and more solutions vs dry shadow bringer lame redraw or minor only come to think of it i totally forget that undraw exist. I do not ever use it since all of shadow bringers.

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There was no point the moment they separated draw and play. It's a legacy skill that for some reason SE decided to keep in, even though it no longer served a purpose.

MNK at least has the excuse that their rework was mid-expac, so the changes were pretty rushed. But AST was a full expac change, yet somehow this oversight was allowed through. It's depressing how little SE looks at the healers. Sometimes I prefer that they just eliminate the role and make all healers into support style DPS or something.

When 90% of our heals are just AOE heals to cover for manditory raid-wide damage, it makes me wonder why we even bother with this farce. Spot healing is way more interesting, even if it's to keep that DPS who keeps standing in the red alive. At least it's more than just hitting one button at a regular interval like our DPS rotation.

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Originally Posted by Dearche

When 90% of our heals are just AOE heals to cover for manditory raid-wide damage, it makes me wonder why we even bother with this farce. Spot healing is way more interesting, even if it's to keep that DPS who keeps standing in the red alive. At least it's more than just hitting one button at a regular interval like our DPS rotation.

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Sounds like we need a return of Alexander style raids, where nobody was safe, and anybody could suddenly get a random prey or mechanic on them that healers had to quickly heal them through lest they die.

Example of a possible future mechanic, a single target Akh Morn style multi hit blast that stays on the random target, cannot be "splash mitigated" by others standing on them, and can only really be survived by healers quickly healing them through the hits.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Sounds like we need a return of Alexander style raids, where nobody was safe, and anybody could suddenly get a random prey or mechanic on them that healers had to quickly heal them through lest they die.

Example of a possible future mechanic, a single target Akh Morn style multi hit blast that stays on the random target, cannot be "splash mitigated" by others standing on them, and can only really be survived by healers quickly healing them through the hits.

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To be honest, I do much prefer this sort of stuff.

Single target damage, maybe with a transferable tether or pillars that only show up one or two at a time but quite often, would make healing much more interesting. It would also make us use our GCD heals as well, even SCH. If this is combined with a better MP management system, like if the basic heal GCD gives us MP rather than relying on a regenerating CD or two, we would actually be playing as real healers doing rapid triage near constantly, not some AOE heal bot that spends most of our time hitting one damage spell.

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Originally Posted by Aeos

We literally know nothing about how Sage plays so calm down.

That being said, SCH makes up for their lesser party buffs compared to AST with their higher personal damage. The 3 healers, in terms of damage output, are very balanced as of current patch (5.5).

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Balanced? Haha, I guess so. They were stripped down to the same sad 1-button spamming trash we have now, so in a real sense--they're all equally bad. I'd agree--balanced indeed.

Be nice if they did something like Disc Priest in WoW, where you put a buff on players and a portion of damage you do turns to healing

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Originally Posted by Arnyekok

Be nice if they did something like Disc Priest in WoW, where you put a buff on players and a portion of damage you do turns to healing

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Unfortunately very unlikely. It could be a very fun design for a healer but it would give that healer a massive advantage. Healer optimization generally boils down to reducing all unnecessary healing to an absolute minimum and replacing it with more dps. If you have a healer that, by design, is able to do both healing and dps at the same time and doesn't have to trade one for the other then they will quickly become an absolute must-have.

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Originally Posted by Arnyekok

Be nice if they did something like Disc Priest in WoW, where you put a buff on players and a portion of damage you do turns to healing

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I still believe that whm would be the only healer that could get away with it. The other healers already has a gimmick going them already (ast cards or sch fairy.) Whm on the other hand doesn't really have a gimmick per say so it would be nice on them.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Unfortunately very unlikely. It could be a very fun design for a healer but it would give that healer a massive advantage. Healer optimization generally boils down to reducing all unnecessary healing to an absolute minimum and replacing it with more dps. If you have a healer that, by design, is able to do both healing and dps at the same time and doesn't have to trade one for the other then they will quickly become an absolute must-have.

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Doesn't Ast dps and heal at the same time with no damage loss because of their 1.5s cast times and massive amounts of oGcd's.

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Originally Posted by Truen

Balanced? Haha, I guess so. They were stripped down to the same sad 1-button spamming trash we have now, so in a real sense--they're all equally bad. I'd agree--balanced indeed.

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Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

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Originally Posted by Acece

Doesn't Ast dps and heal at the same time with no damage loss because of their 1.5s cast times and massive amounts of oGcd's.

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Maybe I should've explained it better. AST is already an issue because it is the healer that is the least affected by having to heal. To the point where you almost want an AST just because they can cover most of the healing with no losses, allowing the other healer to dps more.

AST spells however still only do one or the other, I'm gonna ignore Earthly Star in this case because it is still exclusively planned as a healing tool, the damage is negligible outside of dungeon aoe.

Now imagine if you had a healer whose dps spells healed a target for 30% of the damage dealt, with each cast or DoT tick.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

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Healers never had a rotation but they atleast had some options.

But what also needs to be kept in mind is that healers in older expansions actually had to heal more and had less free oGCD healing options.

Right now you have the issue of healer dps options being reduced to mostly spamming a single button while also having lower healing requirements and more tools to instantly deal with that little required healing, leading to even less time spent healing and more time spent spamming that single ability.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

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I will continue to roll my eyes at the ludicrous argument that, even considering its premise true, boils down to "Ehhhhhhh whatever, your jobs have always been boring! You aren't allowed to ask for them to not be boring for this reason!"

Yes, pressing one button over and over and over again is boring. Who knew? It's not a rotation I'd ask for any job. So why is it somehow insane for healer mains to ask to not press one button over and over and over and over and over again?

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Originally Posted by rewd

Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

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ARR Scholar was a legit green dps. We jokingly say green dps a lot but those were good times when it actually held true. You could tell it came from a dps class cause you were busy in all the right ways. So many dots! I miss it so much. Every healer should have been that enjoyable but it's obvious now they had more time to design the class back then becuase its only lost complexity and skills with every expansion.

They didn’t even needed to touch SCH or AST. It was only WHM that desperately needed a boost. On DPS side of things, SCH should’ve stayed as the mobile DoT master, AST should’ve kept all of its buffs and had time related skills mixed in, while WHM should’ve been a pure DPS type like BLM (wind, water, aero, earth skills to rotate through). And with Sage coming in, that could’ve had the fastest of DPS skills with debuffs they could place on mobs and bosses (my take anyway, but gotta wait until the skill trailer to see what SE does )

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

ARR Scholar was a legit green dps. We jokingly say green dps a lot but those were good times when it actually held true. You could tell it came from a dps class cause you were busy in all the right ways. So many dots! I miss it so much. Every healer should have been that enjoyable but it's obvious now they had more time to design the class back then becuase its only lost complexity and skills with every expansion.

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Personally I consider Stormblood to be the peak of SCH's design. ARR was fine within its era for sure, but Heavensward Scholar was too powerful, iirc it could do like 2/3s of a dps' damage + plus could cover a fairly decent chunk of the healing in optimized settings. While Stormblood isn't perfect by any means (Miasma II and Ruin II where in poor and conflicting spots design wise in my opinion) I think it was a good compromise between accessibility and complexity.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Personally I consider Stormblood to be the peak of SCH's design. ARR was fine within its era for sure, but Heavensward Scholar was too powerful, iirc it could do like 2/3s of a dps' damage + plus could cover a fairly decent chunk of the healing in optimized settings. While Stormblood isn't perfect by any means (Miasma II and Ruin II where in poor and conflicting spots design wise in my opinion) I think it was a good compromise between accessibility and complexity.

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I don’t think that being too powerful is really a good criticism, especially when it comes to dps. The Heavensward SCH felt good to play. They could have nerfed the dps potencies significantly and it would have felt the same to play, healing always comes first, and you always do as much damage as you can around the healing, however much that is. When it comes to healing potencies, it’s a bit more complicated because changing the healing potencies will change the way you use your kit, but generally speaking I think that if a kit is fun but the numbers aren’t right, you change the numbers, not the kit.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

SQUENIX has seemingly assumed so far that Healers don't have to DPS in content, so it's unlikely that they plan around their damage output as a primary balancing measure.

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Indeed, from Yoshi P interviews, Healer DPS isn't mandatory for the majority of the content.

However, small note :

- First weeks savage clear aren't possible without Healer's DPS (not enough gear, not enough damage
- They still balance Healer damage output. Whether you choose or not you make use of that potential is up to you. But they've always been balancing rDPS capabilities.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

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No, healer DPS was better before :

- Stone/Malefic/Broil was the filler. If you could land one more, it was the reward, the bonus, not your main button.
- We had 3 to 5 dots depending of the class (3 for AST and WHM, 5 for SCH), which was better because by the time the dot were ticking, you brought damage and could do something else. It was a better way to contribute to party damage since we're primarily healers.
- 1 to 2 oGCD damaging spell. WHM had Assize + Fluid Aura, SCH had (and still has) Energy drain.
+ Cleric Stance to swap Intel/MND to actually do damage.

So maybe it was a bit too much for some, but it was a least "enough".
Reducing these button were acceptable, but not in the way they did in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

I don’t think that being too powerful is really a good criticism, especially when it comes to dps. The Heavensward SCH felt good to play. They could have nerfed the dps potencies significantly and it would have felt the same to play, healing always comes first, and you always do as much damage as you can around the healing, however much that is. When it comes to healing potencies, it’s a bit more complicated because changing the healing potencies will change the way you use your kit, but generally speaking I think that if a kit is fun but the numbers aren’t right, you change the numbers, not the kit.

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I disagree here. When dps is the main worthwhile metric in this game it means that if one of the healers had a significant edge in dps it will be far and away the best option. SCH was dealing significantly more damage then AST and SCH in that era.

And no, I agree, heavensward sch was FUN, but you know what else it was? needlessly complex and prone to discouraging good play in less skilled players, all those memes about SCH's just dpsing while putting the strain on their co-healers, while not accurate to high skill levels, existed for a reason. No to mention cleric stance was just so...unnecessarily convoluted and punishing. I understand, it feels good to overcome these challenges and know you're contributing on both the offense and defensive front, but this is not something I think we need to go back to.

This is why for the most part I prefer stormblood, it wasn't needlessly convoluted, but it also wasn't just spamming Broil the whole time. It was a compromise, it with a few more system tweaks to make the overall experience smoother is my 'ideal' version of SCH.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

No, healer DPS was better before :

- Stone/Malefic/Broil was the filler. If you could land one more, it was the reward, the bonus, not your main button.
- We had 3 to 5 dots depending of the class (3 for AST and WHM, 5 for SCH), which was better because by the time the dot were ticking, you brought damage and could do something else. It was a better way to contribute to party damage since we're primarily healers.
- 1 to 2 oGCD damaging spell. WHM had Assize + Fluid Aura, SCH had (and still has) Energy drain.
+ Cleric Stance to swap Intel/MND to actually do damage.

So maybe it was a bit too much for some, but it was a least "enough".
Reducing these button were acceptable, but not in the way they did in ShB.

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It was great. Simple and effective, with ways to micro optimize, kept you busy without turning you into a full fledged dps. It had always felt like a perfect fit with the way the gcd is implemented and how you used each one, especially when there were less oGCDs as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I disagree here. When dps is the main worthwhile metric in this game it means that if one of the healers had a significant edge in dps it will be far and away the best option. SCH was dealing significantly more damage then AST and SCH in that era.

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I think you’ve misunderstood my point. My point was not that it is not an issue if one healer does more damage than the others. While healing is the main job of a healer, it’s a pass or fail job, so dps numbers is what will differentiate adequate healers. My point was that you can change how well a healer performs at dps by changing the potencies of their skills, rather than changing the function or number of skills. (Although it’s true that here you can only tune for best case, average case, or worst case, which means a healer with difficult dps may end up doing worse dps on average than a healer with easy dps, due to a smaller number of players getting it right. I’d consider that to be worth it to have a healer with something interesting to do in downtime).

If you can find a way of making healers fun for players like me, who enjoy trying to eke that little bit more out of their kit, (in their downtime as well as their uptime) without making them complex in a way that cause worse players to make mistakes, then go for it. But I don’t accept the argument that healers can’t be complex, fun, and punishing to those who make mistakes. BLM is also punishing to those who mess up, and the group is will die because a BLM messed up and the group failed a dps check just as they will if the healer was too caught up in dpsing to push their healer buttons. No one is saying that BLM needs to be simplified so that bad BLM players don’t cause problems for their groups.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

I think you’ve misunderstood my point. My point was not that it is not an issue if one healer does more damage than the others. While healing is the main job of a healer, it’s a pass or fail job, so dps numbers is what will differentiate adequate healers. My point was that you can change how well a healer performs at dps by changing the potencies of their skills, rather than changing the function or number of skills. (Although it’s true that here you can only tune for best case, average case, or worst case, which means a healer with difficult dps may end up doing worse dps on average than a healer with easy dps, due to a smaller number of players getting it right. I’d consider that to be worth it to have a healer with something interesting to do in downtime).

If you can find a way of making healers fun for players like me, who enjoy trying to eke that little bit more out of their kit, (in their downtime as well as their uptime) without making them complex in a way that cause worse players to make mistakes, then go for it. But I don’t accept the argument that healers can’t be complex, fun, and punishing to those who make mistakes. BLM is also punishing to those who mess up, and the group is will die because a BLM messed up and the group failed a dps check just as they will if the healer was too caught up in dpsing to push their healer buttons. No one is saying that BLM needs to be simplified so that bad BLM players don’t cause problems for their groups.

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My thought it this. I do not consider juggling 5 different timers to be a decent way of creating flow, its needlessly complicated. I would rather see the design of a class be an ebb and flow type of thing. Like for scholar. I find the thought of juggling 5-6 dots needlessly complicated when you could create a more interesting gameplay loop in fewer buttons. I'd rather focus on creating something like that then cry about the good old days. I personally would rather see 1-2 dots with the dots feeding into something rewarding when you maintain them, like a more robust version of the fae guage system where you create a loop between your healing and dps, with measures in place to lean more towards one end without completely screwing over the other.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

My thought it this. I do not consider juggling 5 different timers to be a decent way of creating flow, its needlessly complicated. I would rather see the design of a class be an ebb and flow type of thing. Like for scholar. I find the thought of juggling 5-6 dots needlessly complicated when you could create a more interesting gameplay loop in fewer buttons. I'd rather focus on creating something like that then cry about the good old days. I personally would rather see 1-2 dots with the dots feeding into something rewarding when you maintain them, like a more robust version of the fae guage system where you create a loop between your healing and dps, with measures in place to lean more towards one end without completely screwing over the other.

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You wouldn’t hear me complaining about something new but interesting, either. It just seems wrong to throw away a fun system and replace it with nothing. Ultimately what is needed is a group of healer mains on the dev team who are given authority on healer design and who properly play test new healer designs. I can’t believe any healer main would sign off on the changes that we got.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

My thought it this. I do not consider juggling 5 different timers to be a decent way of creating flow, its needlessly complicated. I would rather see the design of a class be an ebb and flow type of thing. Like for scholar. I find the thought of juggling 5-6 dots needlessly complicated when you could create a more interesting gameplay loop in fewer buttons. I'd rather focus on creating something like that then cry about the good old days. I personally would rather see 1-2 dots with the dots feeding into something rewarding when you maintain them, like a more robust version of the fae guage system where you create a loop between your healing and dps, with measures in place to lean more towards one end without completely screwing over the other.

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I agree that noninteractive dots aren't the way to go. They're not great design if you don't do anything with them. But at the same time, I'd take even boring noninteractive dots over what's possibly the worst design they've come up with yet: casting one single spell a bajillion times over and over again.

There really is a big dif you can tell in how less played healers are atm cause 70% of rollo tend to need em around 29 on tank and 1% dps where dps only ever seem to show for alliance. Bet even blue mage is used more for running old things over healers

WoW's Shaman has one of the simplest interactions which is rather satisfying to pull off:

Flame Shock dots can proc Lava Burst.

Lava Burst is a very slow cast, high resource spell that deals a lot of damage. It's slow cast and MP cost make it inefficient to use by defaul. But Flame Shock's tick damage ( A spell rather similar to WHM's Dia, with upfront damage and a DoT) has a chance to make Lava Burst instant. Not only that, Lava Burst will always cause a critical strike on a target suffering from Flame Shock's dot.

It's such a simple interaction and yet it gives enough variability to give breaks to Shaman's allways be casting healing gameplay.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

WoW's Shaman has one of the simplest interactions which is rather satisfying to pull off:

Flame Shock dots can proc Lava Burst.

Lava Burst is a very slow cast, high resource spell that deals a lot of damage. It's slow cast and MP cost make it inefficient to use by defaul. But Flame Shock's tick damage ( A spell rather similar to WHM's Dia, with upfront damage and a DoT) has a chance to make Lava Burst instant. Not only that, Lava Burst will always cause a critical strike on a target suffering from Flame Shock's dot.

It's such a simple interaction and yet it gives enough variability to give breaks to Shaman's allways be casting healing gameplay.

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yeah even though some games is abit like 14 current 1 dot 1 dps spells they still does it in a way to make it feel of some use haha like my old turn base mmo a few healer merc has a dot but also a special effect like enemies taking more damage off staff type magics/ reduce enemies range attacks and plenty to go from also the hero your main tends to have more abilities vs the merc counter parts. healer mains had so much to choose from and can be build to be hybrid or mostly focus to heal or be a very power damage healer ever since the many mass changes to the game. flame blow which did immense damage and hesvy dot use to be a 4 turn wait aftwr now with new paassives they can spam it it every 2 turn lmao

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

WoW's Shaman has one of the simplest interactions which is rather satisfying to pull off:

Flame Shock dots can proc Lava Burst.

Lava Burst is a very slow cast, high resource spell that deals a lot of damage. It's slow cast and MP cost make it inefficient to use by defaul. But Flame Shock's tick damage ( A spell rather similar to WHM's Dia, with upfront damage and a DoT) has a chance to make Lava Burst instant. Not only that, Lava Burst will always cause a critical strike on a target suffering from Flame Shock's dot.

It's such a simple interaction and yet it gives enough variability to give breaks to Shaman's allways be casting healing gameplay.

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Imagine if WHM Aero 2 proc'd the old Aero 3 in the same way. Im excited just thinking about it.

5.0 has been the worst, most boring, absolutely disappointing iteration of healing I've ever seen, in any game. I absolutely hate what they did to the SCH job, I'm still after all this time quite bitter about it and desperate for news they're going to return some of what they took away when Endwalkers releases. If they don't I just don't imagine I'll play long after the expansion releases. I'm so damn sick of spamming 1 DD spell endlessly.