Zepla and Asmongold discuss FF14 vs. WoW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpbdxAFMzuw

It's a great discussion. Asmongold drops his stream persona here and is very thoughtful.

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpbdxAFMzuw

It's a great discussion. Asmongold drops his stream persona here and is very thoughtful.

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I need to watch the full stream as I caught the tail end of it. But from what I heard it was crazy good. His fans loved it apparently... again.. HIS fans.

That was a fun watch, and he seems to be looking forward to trying the game.

What Zepla said about brand loyalty and tribalism was spot on as well so hopefully fans on either side can chill out and just let him play and not freak out if he doesn't like a certain aspect of the game or ends up not liking it at all.

I hope Asbungold enjoys the game.

Zepla broke down the current issues with WoW so perfectly and did not hold back on some of the issues with FF14 like housing. It really is worth a watch.

I generally don't watch streamers since I much prefer the tactic of engaging players through forum posts but I'll be very happy if there's some prominent streamers casting a light on some of the issues with FFXIV. That makes it more likely that the issues will somehow be addressed.

It’s worth watching for asmongold’s pink bunny ears (with the bow)

Was worth the watch, hit the nail on the head with many points.

Asmon and Zepla are good players, and that gives them instant credibility. If you ever watch Asmon raid as tank in WoW, he's a trip. Can imagine he'll dark knight here and light up the stage.

In general I’m not a fan of his streaming persona or his rabid fan base but this was a very good and frank discussion about the games. I actually enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I generally don't watch streamers since I much prefer the tactic of engaging players through forum posts but I'll be very happy if there's some prominent streamers casting a light on some of the issues with FFXIV. That makes it more likely that the issues will somehow be addressed.

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Just watched a group of people clicking a placard in the mist some there for the last 10 hours trying to buy a small plot of land. Yeah housing is not really a feature in FF14 for a majority of the players.

Great discussion. I really appreciated Zepla's input. She brought up a lot of good points.

As a side note, I actually really like Asmongold. I think he's hilarious, but he's also intelligent.

His chat can definitely be chaotic, but Asmongold himself is not the toxic person so many people claim him to be. He just has different opinions, but that doesn't make him a bad person. I don't always agree with him (for example, his opinion about male Viera is something I definitely disagree with), but I know that it's just an opinion and it doesn't offend me at all. If anything, I find his honesty refreshing.

I hope he enjoys the game. If not, that's ok. He's allowed to dislike stuff just like everyone else.

Nice link.
This was a good vid and without this thread I wouldn't have seen it. Thanks OP.

It was a brilliant watch. Zepla is a great ambassador for the game.

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Originally Posted by Ultaniku

In general I’m not a fan of his streaming persona or his rabid fan base but this was a very good and frank discussion about the games. I actually enjoyed it.

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That's the thing. He left his streaming persona out of the discussion so it was something most could appreciate.

What people fear is what will happen if/when he turns the streaming persona back once he starts playing.

He's the one who's said he wants to be able to just enjoy playing through the game to get a real look at what the game is like. If he turns the streaming persona on while he's playing, that won't happen. Personally I hope he leaves it off for his own sake.

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Originally Posted by FelixDaCat

It was a brilliant watch. Zepla is a great ambassador for the game.

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She didn’t say a lot that needed to be said. Stuff like the structure of the game; most new players don’t appreciate the magnitude of the msq, or how the majority of time spent isn’t actually grinding— it’s watching.

FFXIV is a bit unique in that, to get started, you need to play a game released in 2013. That game has had few changes over the years (outside of pruning) and the content that shows the game in a better light can take hundreds of hours to get to.

Just a time investment seems like a “ok whatever” thing to a typical mmo player, but they don’t appreciate how much of that time is spent watching the game rather than playing it. The story is great, but you need to be in the right mindset to take it in. If you start skipping the voiced stuff to get to “the endgame” faster you’ll just resent the story getting in your way. While this is a perfectly valid way of playing the game, I’d rather do the warning ahead of time so people know what to brace for before it’s too late.

They also have trouble understanding how ffxiv has endgames rather than an endgame, with the endgame of a given expansion unlocking as the base expansion is completed. Coils and extremes are still the endgame from 2013, but they can participate in “the endgame” much earlier than they expect. This is partially why we see so many sprouts confused that those nice people in duty finder no longer want to help them in extreme — they just don’t realize they’re trying to participate in an endgame activity, and they aren’t giving that activity the respect it requires for them to be a contributing member of a team.

They certainly don’t expect the patch content to be roughly the size of an expansion between expansions.

You end up playing through 8 games’ worth of required content to be ready for endwalker, and that’s not counting the optional content you dip your toes into along the way.

Wasnt a fan of the video to be honest. It just mostly "Heres how FF14 good, how WoW bad" video spaced out for 30 minutes rather than a versus topic. It feels like the same Zepla videos with Asmongold reactions. Not what I was expecting tbh -- but its not Bellular content.

The problem that I have with Asmondgold is that I know his actual self, he's pretty chill and respectful. If he decides to play this game without it on, great! But his toxic persona has created just a toxic fan base, and I'm afraid that if he keeps the persona on we will end up with a lot of that base in the game. This game has its fair share of shite people, of course, but I don't want like an influx of it.

As a WoW refugee like Zepla, I could relate to what both of them were saying and agreed with most of it.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

Wasnt a fan of the video to be honest. It just mostly "Heres how FF14 good, how WoW bad" video spaced out for 30 minutes rather than a versus topic. It feels like the same Zepla videos with Asmongold reactions. Not what I was expecting tbh -- but its not Bellular content.

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Not really because they are honestly pointing out simple things WoW needs to get back to where it was and how special the MMO was to them. She even admits to playing Shadowlands which she had to do offstream BTW because she took a TONNNNNN of crap from her community for even saying she was thinking about it.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Not really because they are honestly pointing out simple things WoW needs to get back to where it was and how special the MMO was to them.

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And thats fine. I dont think always living in the past is a good thing either -- you will never achieve those same moments or happiness in the same game. People found this out with Classic really quickly.

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She even admits to playing Shadowlands which she had to do offstream BTW because she took a TONNNNNN of crap from her community for even saying she was thinking about it.

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GCBTW intensifies

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Zepla broke down the current issues with WoW so perfectly and did not hold back on some of the issues with FF14 like housing. It really is worth a watch.

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Agreed. The biggest one being that WoW has designed a system in which they control how you play rather than allowing the Player to decide how they want to play the game.
This rings so well, especially post MoP. I could never figure out what exactly made me stop playing and then Zepla says this and it just all made sense.

A game should never ever force you to play it how, when, where, for how long. I wish I could take back those empty hours of playing WoW for so little progress or reward in return.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

And thats fine. I dont think always living in the past is a good thing either -- you will never achieve those same moments or happiness in the same game. People found this out with Classic really quickly.


GCBTW intensifies

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If they didn't find it out in WoW classic, they were quickly put back into the twilight zone with that peer pressuring level boost in Burning Crusade Classic.
What is the point of classic when you try to insert those sleazy cash shop tactics in a game meant to enjoy or relive nostalgia ? Christ.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

A game should never ever force you to play it how, when, where, for how long.

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We have a saying in the Guild Wars 2 community: "Fun on someone else's schedule isn't fun." What I like about GW2 and FFXIV is I can long in and be like "Hmm, what do I feel like doing today..." Back when I played WoW, it was more like I was handed a list of daily demands, which I would do and then log off.

In FFXIV, you have these Beast Tribes where you can do daily quests to grind reputation, but they're entirely optional side activities. In WoW, those daily rep grinds were literally the gateway to content progression. It was right down to "You play this class, so you have to go to these specific NPCs and make them happy enough to sell you a trinket or weapon to get your item level high enough so you can play with your friends again."

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

In FFXIV, you have these Beast Tribes where you can do daily quests to grind reputation, but they're entirely optional side activities. In WoW, those daily rep grinds were literally the gateway to content progression. It was right down to "You play this class, so you have to go to these specific NPCs and make them happy enough to sell you a trinket or weapon to get your item level high enough so you can play with your friends again."

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In FF14 you have to grind item level. If you refuse it you will be locked out from content, even from the MSQ. Item level grind and reputation grind are basically the same. FF14 is not better in this case.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

In FF14 you have to grind item level. If you refuse it you will be locked out from content, even from the MSQ. Item level grind and reputation grind are basically the same. FF14 is not better in this case.


Cheers

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However getting your item level up is quite easy in this game and takes almost no time to have the level required to enter the content.

Watched the stream it was interesting and all three seemed to be very nice. Certainly seems to be willing to go to FFXIV with an open mind. Hope he likes the game although judging from what i read if he's raid centric like WoW appears to be he might not find the end game very rewarding if and when he gets to it.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

In FF14 you have to grind item level. If you refuse it you will be locked out from content, even from the MSQ. Item level grind and reputation grind are basically the same. FF14 is not better in this case.


Cheers

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It's not a grind for item level at all lol. There are so many ways to advance item level that if you just play the game, you'll get it up, unless you intentionally avoid content that progresses your character and gear lol.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Item level grind and reputation grind are basically the same. FF14 is not better in this case.

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WoW has both. Some main story quests are gated behind reputation in the past while they were current, not quite sure about Shadowlands as I didn't finish it. Heroic dungeons and Raid Finder also have item level requirements.

looking back, WoW became a job more than a game.

towards the end it felt like if I missed a day I should call in sick or something to let Blizz know I wouldnt be there. well, maybe not -that- bad, but it had long stopped being fun, in any way. I play games for entertainment, fun, escape from reality, any one of a number of reasons, but getting a second non paying job is not one of them.

I dont regret my time there. but its been a long time since they earned my money and my time.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

And thats fine. I dont think always living in the past is a good thing either -- you will never achieve those same moments or happiness in the same game. People found this out with Classic really quickly.

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Annie with the Ship of Theseus philosophy question described it perfectly. If you replace literally every core system that people fell in love with is it really the same MMO? What I honestly find hilarious about all of this?

Everything being pointed out as a strength in FF14 right now I remember a lot of people calling weaknesses for years. Just the idea of not having alts as a normal things on multiple characters was a big issue for WoW players for years BUT that was before they added so many convoluted systems that made having an alt a total pain.

It's sort of sad when he mentioned that WoW players seem to hate WoW together, but over here (flaws aside) we like this game overall and we're having fun. Feels like you're stuck doing chores, there's a party next door that people are enjoying and you feel left out. Which is probably why interest in ff14 has picked up so much lately. FF14 hasn't suddenly become better but WoW players have been miserable and want to come and join in the party and be able to have fun too.
It reminds me of playing through StB and ShB MSQ and just being fascinated that I was enjoying it so much. Playing WoW, I'd convinced myself that it was me, that I wasn't having fun because I'd been gaming too long and the genre had become stale and I needed to learn to appreciate what I had better. I saw many players say the same there. It's nice just playing a game and realizing "hey, I'm having fun, this is great!".

You can say "it's just a game" which is true to an extent, but the video also is a reminder that for a lot of people MMO's are a part of their life. A social hobby they enjoy and even something that gets them through rough times. There's no shame with being invested in a game. I do hope something happens from this wave and Blizzard realize they lost all touch with fun. Metrics, grinds, player retention tricks and treadmills look great on paper but aren't enjoyable. I feel bad for players who loved what WoW had to offer to the point that it became a piece of their life and have to abandon it.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Annie with the Ship of Theseus philosophy question described it perfectly. If you replace literally every core system that people fell in love with is it really the same MMO? What I honestly find hilarious about all of this?

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If you consider an MMO as a changing game, then yes, it is the same MMO. If you consider MMO as a static game, then no, it is not the same MMO.

The answer, as with the thought experiment, depends on how you recognize things, not necessarily in the reality of the structure of the thing in question.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

In FF14 you have to grind item level. If you refuse it you will be locked out from content, even from the MSQ. Item level grind and reputation grind are basically the same. FF14 is not better in this case.


Cheers

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... It is though? If you are actively playing the game you will either have the gil for crafted gear, tomes to get gear, another currency to get gear, or you will have the gave give it to you. MSQ has a very low bar for the gear that the only way you would have an issue is if you literally only log on to do MSQ and then never touch the game again until the next one.

It's an interesting stream but Zepla does not tell the whole truth to Asmongold, she doesn't speak at any time about the lack of raid content in shadowbringers one of the main problems of this expansion for the raiding community of the game and a very important point to the wow community.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

What is the point of classic when you try to insert those sleazy cash shop tactics in a game meant to enjoy or relive nostalgia ? Christ.

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Because people may not like Vanilla and would rather play TBC.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

If you replace literally every core system that people fell in love with is it really the same MMO?

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Except the point was even shown in Classic where people were saying Classic wasnt the true Classic experience because of the community. The MMO community has changed so drastically over the years -- which is why things like a Classic are cyclical in nature rather than progressive.

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Everything being pointed out as a strength in FF14 right now I remember a lot of people calling weaknesses for years. Just the idea of not having alts as a normal things on multiple characters was a big issue for WoW players for years BUT that was before they added so many convoluted systems that made having an alt a total pain.

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I cant get into alts for the life of me -- but people who honestly think SL is alt-unfriendly must have amnesia to forget what actual alt-unfriendliness was in Legion and BFA, in my honest opinion.

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Originally Posted by Eimdal

It's an interesting stream but Zepla does not tell the whole truth to Asmongold, she doesn't speak at any time about the lack of raid content in shadowbringers one of the main problems of this expansion for the raiding community of the game and a very important point to the wow community.

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Asmongold is not trying to replace WoW, but to supplement it, and FFXIV is good game for that. If he reaches the endgame, he can then judge for himself how much he wants to invest in the endgame and whether FFXIV has enough for him to play on the side when not playing WoW.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

I cant get into alts for the life of me -- but people who honestly think SL is alt-unfriendly must have amnesia to forget what actual alt-unfriendliness was in Legion and BFA, in my honest opinion.

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I think it's a cumulative effect. Even if Shadowlands is more alt friendly than the previous two expansions, if it's still not friendly enough, it could still be three (or more, or less, depending on how each individual player feels) consecutive alt unfriendly expansions. And I also heard that Shadowlands was advertised to being alt friendly. If true, then that could hurt it even more if people perceived it to be the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

... It is though? If you are actively playing the game you will either have the gil for crafted gear, tomes to get gear, another currency to get gear, or you will have the gave give it to you. MSQ has a very low bar for the gear that the only way you would have an issue is if you literally only log on to do MSQ and then never touch the game again until the next one.

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Hi, if you actively play WoW then you will also not have problems to get the reputation, soul ash, rescued souls, whatever to unlock the content. :) The point is, such artificial limits are to control how fast a player can consume the content. Maybe those limits do not feel annoying for long term FF14 players. But i come from WoW Classic. And i have hit the item level wall very quickly and it felt very disturbing for me. I am at maximal level but then not really maximal level etc. It feels like Square Enix tries to protect the players from themself.



Cheers

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Originally Posted by linayar

Asmongold is not trying to replace WoW, but to supplement it, and FFXIV is good game for that. If he reaches the endgame, he can then judge for himself how much he wants to invest in the endgame and whether FFXIV has enough for him to play on the side when not playing WoW.

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This is a good point and I think it's something a lot of people are missing (not necessarily people in this thread. I'm not trying to call anyone out here).

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's sort of sad when he mentioned that WoW players seem to hate WoW together, but over here (flaws aside) we like this game overall and we're having fun. Feels like you're stuck doing chores, there's a party next door that people are enjoying and you feel left out. Which is probably why interest in ff14 has picked up so much lately. FF14 hasn't suddenly become better but WoW players have been miserable and want to come and join in the party and be able to have fun too.
It reminds me of playing through StB and ShB MSQ and just being fascinated that I was enjoying it so much. Playing WoW, I'd convinced myself that it was me, that I wasn't having fun because I'd been gaming too long and the genre had become stale and I needed to learn to appreciate what I had better. I saw many players say the same there. It's nice just playing a game and realizing "hey, I'm having fun, this is great!".

You can say "it's just a game" which is true to an extent, but the video also is a reminder that for a lot of people MMO's are a part of their life. A social hobby they enjoy and even something that gets them through rough times. There's no shame with being invested in a game. I do hope something happens from this wave and Blizzard realize they lost all touch with fun. Metrics, grinds, player retention tricks and treadmills look great on paper but aren't enjoyable. I feel bad for players who loved what WoW had to offer to the point that it became a piece of their life and have to abandon it.

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It's nice seeing someone like yourself understand the situation so well. This is exactly how things are right now, and why I had to abandon that slowly but surely sinking ship. I didn't want to, but the game just isn't for me anymore when it used to be made for all types. WoW was a major part of my life in many ways, through the good times and the bad. It's a shame that it has fallen so far from grace. For me, it was the best game I had ever played and the one game I had played the longest. Since day 1 I had been logging in almost every day, at least until WoD and BfA where I took a lot of breaks. Shadowlands...that was it for me. And it makes me sad.

Hi, here is the complete version of the discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7nz_fw4E_U


Cheers