Male Viera names?

I've been thinking of creating a male Viera character in the future, so I've been wondering what are their naming conventions. Apparently it's "whatever": Viera adventurers often take up new names, including using naming conventions from other races. But some do keep the names they use when living in the forest, and if you create a new Viera character, the name generator would create these "forest names".

I think since "boy and girl vieras don't look very different until adolescence", perhaps their forest name conventions would be the same between genders. But the generated names seem more feminine sounding. I wonder if that will stay true for male Vieras (perhaps justified by females being more common), or there would be unique options for male Viera in the name generator? If you're making a Viera character, what do you choose for your name, and why?

I don't think there's any lore on that, or even so far as I know any named viera males in FFXIV at least.

Come 6.0 at least we should be able to get some information by looking at the random name generator for male viera at the very least.

Not any Lore YET; though I've speculated in the past that perhaps Viera Forest Names aren't really gendered, with the whole "indistinguishable until puberty" thing.

Of course, that may be a "TO OUTSIDERS, they're indistinguishable until puberty"; or "indistinguishable" in the same way that human children are/can be until puberty kicks in but the entire town already knows which are males and which are females.

At the end, we'll know for sure closer to release date.

My guess is it's gonna be a modified female name (like miqo'te moonkeepers), an "lmao just w/e you want" explanation of them adopting new names once they get kicked out of the village, or something arcane like "their names mimic sounds from nature from bird calls to babbling brooks to help them stay unnoticed in the wood while still being able to communicate" I just hope that it's packaged with female hrothgar names too. (and those extra threads are deleted and merged with the main official race thread, 'cause why did they even create two new threads?)

But didn't we get our viera/hrothgar naming conventions like almost a month after ShB launched? I think we might have to wait a good while unfortunately. :(

Considering the females use Icelandic names for their "Forest" / birth names, I imagine the males would do so as well.

Just the same it's a relatively safe wager the female Hrothgar will use Slavic names just like the males. Given the males use variations on their "queen's" forename for their surname, that bit is the hard part to discern.

Icelandic names just like the women makes the most sense, and as you brought up in your OP, since Viera are androgynous until puberty most of their names are probably gender-neutral despite sounding feminine to us.

Some extra info from Matsuno's twitter came up in the male Viera thread. It DOES confirm that male and females can't be told apart until puberty, and that includes their... primary sexual characteristics, it seems.

Of note:

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Q: What about their gender identity? Do they not have that on their mind while growing up?
A: They do not think about it until puberty starts
Q: So are they just accepting it after puberty? It sounds scary to me that onces they are old enough, they are suddenly being told "You're Male, you have to leave the village now"
A: For us a big influence while growing up is our environment, "As a girl/boy this is what you have to do and how you have to behave". In that sense, Viera aren't raised like that. Their approach to education and raising keeps this in mind. The surrounding enviroment is different to our present age.

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It fuels the "share naming conventions between the genders" theory; although males that get taken by a mentor could still get another name for their training and to further differentiate them.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Some extra info from Matsuno's twitter came up in the male Viera thread. It DOES confirm that male and females can't be told apart until puberty, and that includes their... primary sexual characteristics, it seems.

Of note:



It fuels the "share naming conventions between the genders" theory; although males that get taken by a mentor could still get another name for their training and to further differentiate them.

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I've read the answer to the second question four times and I still don't know what it's trying to say.

Taking it at face value, it seems like Matsuno is saying "they have a different set of norms". Which is both very obvious and completely facile to observe. Two families living as neighbours can have different norms when it comes to gender environments. What is more interesting is what happens when someone doesn't fit into the rigid box, and Matsuno has apparently deliberately decided not to answer that part of the question, hiding behind cultural essentialism.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I've read the answer to the second question four times and I still don't know what it's trying to say.

Taking it at face value, it seems like Matsuno is saying "they have a different set of norms". Which is both very obvious and completely facile to observe. Two families living as neighbours can have different norms when it comes to gender environments. What is more interesting is what happens when someone doesn't fit into the rigid box, and Matsuno has apparently deliberately decided not to answer that part of the question, hiding behind cultural essentialism.

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I'm not sure where the confusion is, but I think he's mostly addressing the "so they just accept it?" bit and taking the second sentence as a remark rather than a question to be answered.

And yeah, they'd just be raised to accept (or at least know) that at some point some of them will turn out to be male and will need to take up their duty as Wood-Warders.

In any case it's not "you have to leave the village now", it's "you'll be apprenticed to the next Warder who visits the village".

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not sure where the confusion is, but I think he's mostly addressing the "so they just accept it?" bit and taking the second sentence as a remark rather than a question to be answered.

And yeah, they'd just be raised to accept (or at least know) that at some point some of them will turn out to be male and will need to take up their duty as Wood-Warders.

In any case it's not "you have to leave the village now", it's "you'll be apprenticed to the next Warder who visits the village".

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The second sentence seems rather clearly an elaboration of the first, by bringing up a possible example reaction to the Viera rituals surrounding puberty. And Matsuno's answer seems rather dismissive with "well, their culture is different".

What would have made it clear is if Matsuno explained what those who disagree with the culture will feel and likely do. He could presumably do so within the character limit by removing the first sentence of his answer, which is "our environment contains arbitrary gender essentialism divides that affect how we think". And the next sentence states the Viera also have an arbitrary gender essentialism divide, but "different" somehow, and "[not] like that".

EDIT: To make it clearer, Matsuno could have said "in our world now, we try to allow boys and girls to be what they want. But Viera aren't raised like that, and they believe that boys and girls must have strictly different roles." That would make the statements clearer to me.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

EDIT: To make it clearer, Matsuno could have said "in our world now, we try to allow boys and girls to be what they want. But Viera aren't raised like that, and they believe that boys and girls must have strictly different roles." That would make the statements clearer to me.

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That's the opposite of what he's saying.

The first part of the statement is about human culture. Humans have a concept of male and female as children and have different expectations placed on them depending on whether they are a boy or a girl.

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For us a big influence while growing up is our environment, "As a girl/boy this is what you have to do and how you have to behave".

In that sense, Viera aren't raised like that. Their approach to education and raising keeps this in mind. The surrounding enviroment is different to our present age.

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Viera do not have that "big influence" because they have no concept of boys and girls. The rest of the statement is vague but it seems simple enough to me that would mean that they're not raised with the concept. They're not preparing some children to be future warders and some to be future villagers, they just treat them all the same.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's the opposite of what he's saying.

The first part of the statement is about human culture. Humans have a concept of male and female as children and have different expectations placed on them depending on whether they are a boy or a girl.



Viera do not have that "big influence" because they have no concept of boys and girls. The rest of the statement is vague but it seems simple enough to me that would mean that they're not raised with the concept. They're not preparing some children to be future warders and some to be future villagers, they just treat them all the same.

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Except all Viera are eventually divided into warders and villagers, not due to skill or aptitude, but due to biological gender. This means it is gender essentialism, and an arbitrary one.

Hence my comment that it's not actually that different between the "human example" Matsuno gave and the Viera example. Humans may have different expectations of male and female children, but these expectations are arbitrary, and have very little to do with actual biology. And in modern society (and definitely in Eorzea), there is a drive towards examining those expectations and allowing for greater crossover.

Viera may not have the arbitrary expectation between children, but they demonstrably have them between adults. So either Matsuno is saying "Humans and Viera are the same in having weird expectations between male and female", or he's saying "Humans and Viera are different, because Humans try to look past biological (and assigned) gender, while Viera keep strictly to them". But the way he phrased it seems to wobble between the two.

I imagine that, with the male models now completed, they could easily add a transgender Viera or two to an existing settlement. It may have already been established that nobody has ever seen a male Viera, but that would still be true if they met an AMAB Viera. It would be a very easy retcon.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Except all Viera are eventually divided into warders and villagers, not due to skill or aptitude, but due to biological gender. This means it is gender essentialism, and an arbitrary one.

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They are divided by gender as adults, but that doesn't apply as children. He's talking about how they think and are treated as children.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I imagine that, with the male models now completed, they could easily add a transgender Viera or two to an existing settlement. It may have already been established that nobody has ever seen a male Viera, but that would still be true if they met an AMAB Viera. It would be a very easy retcon.

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That depends entirely how the culture treats it - and I can't see them even having such a concept as transgender. You developed that body shape, you're a warder whether you like it or not, and there's no such thing as disagreeing with the role that fate has decreed for you.

I think we could easily find them outside of the tribe, but even then their whole understanding of gender is going to be different, especially if they're all treated as female until they "become" male. (It seems likely they all use female pronouns, at least.) In that case it would be more about refusing to acknowledge that physical change and continuing to adhere to the gender they've had from birth.

Fully aware you're speaking academically, but you've basically looped back around into gender essentialism, whether you meant to or not. What is gender but the notion that one's assigned sexual characteristics are intrinsically tied to one's personality and role in society?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Fully aware you're speaking academically, but you've basically looped back around into gender essentialism, whether you meant to or not. What is gender but the notion that one's assigned sexual characteristics are intrinsically tied to one's personality and role in society?

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It's the state of Viera society as adults but not as children, because they can't be assigned a gender as children.

I would say that their view of gender would be slightly different from ours. Though in particular because their formation SEEMS to be less based on "gender" and more on "DUTY": such as "You'll either grow into a Wood Warder or a [Whatever the term was for the females]", a "duty" that HAPPENS to be based on sex (on which I'll say no more beccause I don't want to do a whole diatribe on gender roles and expectations).

HOWEVER, given that most if not all the Viera we meet are outliers and rebels (I'm deliberately excluding the Viis here), or were simply born out of their "restrictive society"; it does give a good excuse for a female (well, Designated Female At Birth) Viera to have wanted to grow up to be a Wood Warder only to be told no because she developed feminine sexual characteristics. She (or He if we go by the "Trans" angle and not a "gender-non-conforming" one, or a "Cis Female but enjoys typically-male roles") would be presented to us in a mostly "male Viera" sort of upbringing while "biologically" being female. Do I think the dev team will go with that? No. Of course not. They were weirded out enough giving men dresses to chip in to the whole "trans people exist" issue. Do I think it's a perfectly acceptable backstory for a Viera character that is even accidentally Lore-appropriate? Yes, of course.

It feels... like a convoluted way to retcon the Males' existence into XIV when we could have just said "Yes, they existed all the time.. off-screen." Especially since Matsuno added that this did not apply to FFXII, meaning he's leaving his options open in the case there's another Ivalice game.

The situation appears rather straightforward to me. They're not the equivalent of modern day real world humans, they're an isolated group of tribes bound by the will of their forest. As such their society subscribes to strict gender norms. Some Viera see fit to take their leave of the forest altogether, probably right around the same time that they grow into their adult form. The number of individuals doing as much, however, is likely to be small - though that won't be reflected in the player character population. It will, however, be reflected through NPC placement.

I think Matsuno handled the questions rather well. Especially since some of them were arguably deceptive and leading in their framing - particularly the phrase 'it sounds scary to me'. Assuming we get another lore book, I don't doubt that there will be more detail to work with as well as snippets of potential lore to be found in-game during Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

It feels... like a convoluted way to retcon the Males' existence into XIV when we could have just said "Yes, they existed all the time.. off-screen." Especially since Matsuno added that this did not apply to FFXII, meaning he's leaving his options open in the case there's another Ivalice game.

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Agree with most of your post but just be be pedantic here; he also says they came up with it during XII's development, and that his reasoning for saying it doesn't apply to XII is only because he left that game's development before it had the chance to be published somewhere.

I do agree it's convoluted and not really necessary as an explanation, but all the same I just find it interesting to have characters from different cultures with different concepts of gender. It doesn't take away from the possibility of someone's mental gender not matching their body; it just means it's going to come up in a different form to a culture where everyone knows their physical gender from birth and is treated accordingly.

There's not much potential to recognise it while in the tribe and following the cultural rules, but they can still leave and embrace whatever identity they want once they're out in the wider world - though as I said, they're just going to have a different vocabulary and outlook about what it means and what gender roles even are.

Think it’s also important to note since it’s a fantasy game they don’t take every real life approach/don’t have the same logistics or even biology as us. So it may not be something that even pertains to them unlike IRL.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I imagine that, with the male models now completed, they could easily add a transgender Viera or two to an existing settlement. It may have already been established that nobody has ever seen a male Viera, but that would still be true if they met an AMAB Viera. It would be a very easy retcon.

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I'd be overjoyed to see this, yeah. It would be amazing and awesome and all sorts of superlative descriptors.

And it would also help with my confusion about Matsuno's answer, implying that he couldn't be specific and direct because he didn't want to spoil.

I just can't see the society being accepting of people saying "oh, but I don't feel like I'm a man, I'm sure I'm really a woman so I should be able to stay in the village" - not when the ones who do accept their physical gender might not be too happy about being pushed out of the tribe either.

I also think the whole society would just depend on everyone being in the mindset of following their ordained duty and it simply is more about following that physical indication of their role, regardless of what they think of it. eg. "I don't really feel like I've become a man - however that is supposed to feel - but my body indicates that I am, so it's my duty to become a warder."


To be clear, I have no issue with the idea of trans characters in the wider picture of Eorzean society that has a concept of gender similar to modern western society, with male and female stereotypes and the ability for anyone to aspire to any kind of role, but I think it's a waste of interesting ideas to look at the strictly-divided-by-physical-gender tribe and assume they'll have the same attitude to letting people live according to which gender they feel like. The interest comes from figuring out how someone would think about gender from that society's viewpoint, and what they would make of Eorzean social concepts once they got there - basically having to make sense of how they feel and which gender they actually want to identify with rather than what everyone in the tribe, including themselves, thought a straightforward question of body shape.


TL;DR: You need to have a concept of gender before you can decide you don't fit into it, and I don't think Viera would have it in the way we think of it.


Also from a purely practical standpoint (and at least to my awareness), they never go back and add new minor characters to towns unless it's to unlock some kind of new side activity. If we see male Viera NPCs of any gender, they're going to be in places we haven't seen yet.

I think what I was more getting at is, it's not "not" a concept of gender just because it doesn't kick in until puberty. The implications seem to be they're raised in the village by women, and then sent off to live with the men once "things" become apparent. Yeah, kids are stupid, but they generally start forming an identity well before hormones kick in, and that system basically guarantees the omnipresence of "female" role models to pattern behavior off of.

Because honestly, as soon as I started trying to reconcile that with the "forced into a death game to prove their masculinity because they grew a penis at age 12" thing my brain started to melt. There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

You will inevitably get a child perfect for village life who ends up growing in the other direction. The reverse as well. It would be an easier pill to swallow if the truth of Viera ended up somewhere along the lines of "we can make exceptions in either direction depending on the child, and our societal equivalents of your quaint notions of 'gender' are purely based on function."

Sunseekers work because tia always have the option to opt out and come back later (or not at all), while females sticking to the tribe structure choose when they mate with the nunh, and not the other way around. Nunh itself is a voluntary position with very clear disclosures. There's consideration for free will there that keeps the society from collapsing in on itself. (For a no-free-will counterexample, go watch Kemono Jihen.)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

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The Viera are a fictional race in a fantasy game. They're not the equivalent to modern day humans in the real world, thus their values and cultural beliefs/trends are going to differ. Those who disagree with the status quo take their leave, those who are content with it choose to remain.

This is all getting alarmingly close to the mentality of needing to educate and reform their tribal ways, though.

I would think most, if not all, trans and otherwise not-going-with-the-norm Viera just end up leaving the forest since their society isn't working for them.

For RPers I expect to see "I didn't like the role I was going to be put into so I left" as a backstory for a lot of Viera.

We can also get an idea of how the males are treated from previous descriptions of male viera, as well as female moon keeper miqo'te attitudes to their males, keepers seeming to be based on viera. it could be a case with the viera that puberty hits the boys hard and they become aggressive/territorial into adolescence and adulthood. Their society could be segregated based on the sexes out of natural necessity rather than strictly custom. A lot of mammals in our world are like this, where the males are cast out on their own after puberty when they become brats. They then go solo or form bands of males and only interact with the rest of their society for breeding.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Viera are a fictional race in a fantasy game. They're not the equivalent to modern day humans in the real world, thus their values and cultural beliefs/trends are going to differ. Those who disagree with the status quo take their leave, those who are content with it choose to remain.

This is all getting alarmingly close to the mentality of needing to educate and reform their tribal ways, though.

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Now you're putting words in my mouth. We don't have the full story, so all of this is speculation. What little we do have so far pushes the bounds of credibility for some of us who actually enjoy engaging with and critiquing our media on a deeper level. No values judgments are being made, though your knee-jerk reactions are always fairly telling.

That said, I think the Star Trek rule applies. The writers are human, and writings by humans are, by their very existence, explorations of humanity and human nature. Any pretensions otherwise, like "oh, but they're aliens," have only ever been a layer of plausible deniability used to facilitate discussions of issues that tend to make people a bit touchy. Like you and gender norms, which has already been very well established thank you and still contributes basically nothing.

If you don't like the discussion, just move on. I think we'd all prefer it if you kept your word about sticking to the stuff you liked and stopped constantly interjecting about the stuff you don't.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

No values judgments are being made, though your knee-jerk reactions are always fairly telling.

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I'd be inclined to state that the poster singling me out for what has to be the tenth or so time would be the 'knee jerk reaction' in this specific case. I don't recall ever speaking to you in-game, but you seem to be familiar with me on some level. That aside...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

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The 'unfortunate subtext' statement is what comes across as passing judgement.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

That said, I think the Star Trek rule applies. The writers are human, and writings by humans are, by their very existence, explorations of humanity and human nature. Any pretensions otherwise, like "oh, but they're aliens," have only ever been a layer of plausible deniability used to facilitate discussions of issues that tend to make people a bit touchy. Like you and gender norms, which has already been very well established thank you and still contributes basically nothing.

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Star Trek? We're discussing Final Fantasy XIV, rather than Star Trek. That aside, it's a pretty old show I believe and not everybody posting here is going to be familiar with it or even find it to their tastes.

I'm not sure what you're getting at in regards to the 'gender norms' comment. Could you elaborate?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

If you don't like the discussion, just move on. I think we'd all prefer it if you kept your word about sticking to the stuff you liked and stopped constantly interjecting about the stuff you don't.

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Just as you're free to post wherever you so wish, so too am I. I'm not sure where you're getting this 'we' from, either. Even if others agree with you this place is not a hive mind and we've thankfully moved past the days where narratives were controlled by a small group of active posters.

I'm not at all sure why you seem to think I should not weigh in on the subject of male viera, given that I've been one of the most vocal supporters of their inclusion over on the general discussion forum.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The 'unfortunate subtext' statement is what comes across as passing judgement.

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I mean, I suppose you're welcome to disregard the attached context ("institutionalized child murder," by the way) if that makes it easier for you to paint me as some unreasonable gender crusader.

You didn't actually respond to any of my relevant points re: writing and humanity, so there's not much else I can say to you.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I mean, I suppose you're welcome to disregard the attached context ("institutionalized child murder," by the way) if that makes it easier for you to paint me as some unreasonable gender crusader.

You didn't actually respond to any of my relevant points re: writing and humanity, so there's not much else I can say to you.

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This interview excerpt may be of help:

Shadowbringers may leave players feeling emotionally conflicted at its end. What interested you about making players feel a bit unsure about whether they’re doing the right thing?

Yoshida: I touched on this in a previous answer as well, but I would be delighted if Final Fantasy XIV served as a catalyst for people to ponder about themselves, their surroundings, parents, siblings, friends, and society, instead of holding onto the idea that good is rewarded and evil is punished. That said, we are entertainers, not philosophers—our greatest joy would be for players to enjoy the game, one way or another.

Source: https://www.siliconera.com/final-fan...gh-emet-selch/

The game is but that at the end of the day - a game. Others are free to do as they so please, but bear in mind that many of us do not view the world in the same way as those who frequent social media and drop loaded terms into a debate as a point of concern. Some are just here to enjoy the story and discuss elements within it without getting lost in endless circular arguments revolving around morality.

I'm personally comfortable enough in my own moral compass that I need not have the media I consume constantly reinforce it, though. As always, I suspect that the prudent course would be to agree to disagree. I'm not here to argue or get into mud slinging matches. I'm simply here to discuss the game's characters and story.

Ultimately I think it's fine for a non human race in a fictional fantasy setting to not conform to modern day concepts of morality. I'm not really sure what's controversial with that stance - and of course, others are free to disagree with it if they so wish but again, it's a game - I don't think anybody needs to get angry over it.

I agree with Theodric, I am rather glad to see that they stuck with their guns with the race's unorthodox approach, since it helps emphasise their grittier aspects.

I will look forward to playing one as a wandering merc should the design options be to my liking.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I think what I was more getting at is, it's not "not" a concept of gender just because it doesn't kick in until puberty. The implications seem to be they're raised in the village by women, and then sent off to live with the men once "things" become apparent. Yeah, kids are stupid, but they generally start forming an identity well before hormones kick in, and that system basically guarantees the omnipresence of "female" role models to pattern behavior off of.

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The thing is, where are they going to get that concept of gender from, and form that identity upon, if the only thing they know about men is that they're not allowed to live in the village?

And apparently the women do everything that the men would do anyway, besides the additional ultra-survivalist skills that need to be taught from warder to apprentice.

At most you'd have some kids showing a preference about what role they'll have to take up, but that isn't necessarily tied to gender even in a culture with the normal concepts of male and female.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Because honestly, as soon as I started trying to reconcile that with the "forced into a death game to prove their masculinity because they grew a penis at age 12" thing my brain started to melt. There's... really no way to explore that rigidity in-game while also showing it as necessary or positive without a heaping helping of unfortunate subtext.

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I think I'm missing the subtext, but you've got it upside-down saying they do it to "prove their masculinity". Their masculinity has been inarguably proven by the fact that they grew into a man, and that is why they have to get out there.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

You will inevitably get a child perfect for village life who ends up growing in the other direction. The reverse as well. It would be an easier pill to swallow if the truth of Viera ended up somewhere along the lines of "we can make exceptions in either direction depending on the child, and our societal equivalents of your quaint notions of 'gender' are purely based on function."

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I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

The big thing is, tradition and religion make people throughout history do a lot of things that make no sense from a secular perspective. Do this, wear that, eat certain foods, don't approach the sacred mountain or the wrath of the gods will fall upon the village and it will be all your fault.

And this being fantasy fiction, there's a particularly high chance that the gods actually are ready to inflict their wrath.

If it's a matter of practicality, determining societal role purely by physical gender isn't a great approach, and maybe it would be helpful to let the warders come home for dinner too.

If it's the sacred will of the forest that men become warders and leave the village, you don't argue with the sacred will of the forest. That's just the Way Things Are and you take up your role or accept exile as your only other option.


Also, at a meta level, the whole system was concocted as an explanation for why there are no male (or male-model) Viera in the village. It wouldn't really make sense if it didn't strictly ban men from the village.

An excellent post, Iscah.

I also think that another good way to look at it is through the lens of the natural world. I like to go hiking in forests and mountains, so I see a lot of such things in their purest form. Nature can seem both wondrous and cruel to us, but it is what it is and it works in its own way.

We might find a specific animal to be very cute, though as it is part of the food chain another, bigger animal will seek to consume it. There's no malice in the act, it's just how it works.

I like spiders. I think they're cool creatures who help get rid of pests. I also like cats and own one - she's adorable, though if she sees a spider she chases and kills it. I wouldn't make a moral judgement on that act because...it's instinctive behaviour.

Bringing the conversation back to Viera, that's how I see it. They aren't modern day real world humans, thus they have different instincts, cultural norms and behaviours.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Agree with most of your post but just be be pedantic here; he also says they came up with it during XII's development, and that his reasoning for saying it doesn't apply to XII is only because he left that game's development before it had the chance to be published somewhere.

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My bad, then! Must've missed that part.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The thing is, where are they going to get that concept of gender from, and form that identity upon, if the only thing they know about men is that they're not allowed to live in the village?

And apparently the women do everything that the men would do anyway, besides the additional ultra-survivalist skills that need to be taught from warder to apprentice.

At most you'd have some kids showing a preference about what role they'll have to take up, but that isn't necessarily tied to gender even in a culture with the normal concepts of male and female.

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That's basically my understanding, their concept of gender would be different than ours, and children not thinking of themselves as either male or female; and probably the rest of the village not thinking of them as either but just as a nebulous gender-neutral "children". Or they may think of them as girls until proven otherwise, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

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Indeed, and I don't believe the intention is we're supposed to overthrow their traditions or anything of the sort. If anything, it serves as an easy way for player characters to leave said society. For any reason from "dislikes the role the Green Word gave them" all the way to "Gender dysphoria is a <kupo!> in a society with a heavy emphasis in a sex-based-binary." (though, of course, since backstory headcanons are JUST headcanons, it can also be as innocent as "the Will of the Woods said we'd be better off protecting the Jungle from X/Y/Z event")

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't think the idea is supposed to be easy to swallow. It's meant to be a harsh strict societal rule based on tradition over practicality. That's the only way a system like that can stay intact. If you start making an exception for the clumsy man who is good with kids and the woman who wants to be a warder, pretty soon it stops being a gender-based system at all.

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I think the key will be in how (or if) it ends up depicted in-game at all. I think to me, it seems a waste to have Viera children grow up genderless only for them to be sorted out later. On the one hand, you end up with an all-male-bodied group and all-female-bodied group of otherwise genderless beings, which I agree is neat, but on the other, dividing them up at all feels like its wasting the potential of exploring a truly genderblind society.

But then...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Also, at a meta level, the whole system was concocted as an explanation for why there are no male (or male-model) Viera in the village. It wouldn't really make sense if it didn't strictly ban men from the village.

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This. Matsuno crafted a very solid explanation on the assumption that it would never need to be walked back. But here we are. It wasn't until Heavensward that the devs really felt they could relax a bit on the scarcity of male Miqo'te, and then they were not only all over the place, but didn't really stick to the "established lore" beyond naming conventions, carrying with it the implications that enough had moved on from the old ways.

Will the Dramaturge still talk about how nobody's ever seen a male Viera? Will we get some sort of disaster-induced exodus like the Au Ra to explain their sudden presence? How much of their society would they try to hold onto if they were forced to live alongside other races? There's a lot to ponder.

Also, I certainly hope you haven't mistake my willingness to debate with you for any kind of personal attack. I know I can come across as harsh (I blame the perma-scowl on the character avatars), but I'm not actually that invested in an outcome here. From our minimal interactions on these forums, you seem like a cool, articulate person with interesting ideas.

I rather they don't exist outside of the woods let the wol be the only male viera we see i would say the same about the cat bois but sadly that ship sailed after they pandered to the QQ'ers FF 11 > FF 14

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It wasn't until Heavensward that the devs really felt they could relax a bit on the scarcity of male Miqo'te, and then they were not only all over the place, but didn't really stick to the "established lore" beyond naming conventions, carrying with it the implications that enough had moved on from the old ways.

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My headcanon to explain the proliferation of male Miqo'te adventurers is that something happened 25 years ago (Battle of Silvertear Lake?) that affected the gender balance of the Miqo'te. At least, that's what I would use for the backstory of a Miqo'te PC.

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Originally Posted by Kakurady

My headcanon to explain the proliferation of male Miqo'te adventurers is that something happened 25 years ago (Battle of Silvertear Lake?) that affected the gender balance of the Miqo'te. At least, that's what I would use for the backstory of a Miqo'te PC.

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One thing I have noticed in ShB is that unlike on the First compared to the Source there appears to be a more 50/50 gender balance of male and female Mystal, the Firsts equivalent of the Miqo'te. So the larger quantities of male Mystal NPCs at least makes sense there. Who knows in the future at some point they may take us to another shard were something similar is present for that shards equivalent of the Viera as an excuse to show more male Viera NPCs.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Will the Dramaturge still talk about how nobody's ever seen a male Viera? Will we get some sort of disaster-induced exodus like the Au Ra to explain their sudden presence? How much of their society would they try to hold onto if they were forced to live alongside other races? There's a lot to ponder.

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I don't think there'll necessarily be a claim of their "sudden presence" because if the WoL is a Viera, that means they've been emerging from the woods since at least some time prior to the beginning of the story. It's going to require either a subtle rewrite or explicit disproving of the Dramaturge's current claims to bring in any kind of alteration to the lore he provides, but it won't be because the situation within the game has changed since he delivered it.

As for how to take their societal views into the wider world, I'm playing with that myself trying to work out what my hypothetical alt makes of the whole thing. I think he's fine with being a man but doesn't really have a concept for what that means besides being a warder, though maybe being an adventurer is close enough.

I wonder if it's even an upside-down thing where activity=gender to the point that adventuring is "being male" and staying in one place is "being female" and that could lead to the idea of dressing as a man while adventuring and a woman while staying in town for a longer period, and not seeing that as anything remarkable. (This could also explain why non-Viera people think they've only seen female Viera in the cities!)

Or maybe it's just as simple as being a man, because he is.

I'm not sure which way I want to take that and I think it's going to partly depend on what new official lore we get regarding them.

Of course, the attitude of exiled Viera to their culture is all dependent on why they decided to leave the village in the first place. Did they leave to dodge their cultural expectations or because they felt called to serve the village best by journeying beyond it? They might want to hold to their traditions as much as they can, or they might be glad to be rid of the whole thing and just entirely take on the new culture they've landed in.


Come to think of it - from the WoL's specific lore, it does seem like a very Azemish thing to say "stuff your overbearing traditions, I'm off to see the world and help people as best I can."

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Also, I certainly hope you haven't mistake my willingness to debate with you for any kind of personal attack. I know I can come across as harsh (I blame the perma-scowl on the character avatars), but I'm not actually that invested in an outcome here. From our minimal interactions on these forums, you seem like a cool, articulate person with interesting ideas.

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No offence taken, and thankyou for the compliment!

And yes, perma-scowl on the avatars is a bit of a thing. Some get it worse than others.