Why dont they just separate the two?

I think everything could work if they separated the EX/SAVAGE content (the content that actually revolves around balance and homogenized/scripted gameplay) Vs Casual play, normal raids, and DNGS (places that can afford a little diversity and leniency in terms of gameplay mechanics.

SE separated PVP and PVE -- PVP has what is basically a different skill hotbar for every class, and even a few spells that the classes themselves don't have for PVE. Why cant they do the same For Casual vs Competitive play by separating Casual vs Competitive classes and abilities so everyone has fun.

If they did this they wouldn't have to worry about having coded themselves into a Balance-box with Casual content and they would now just be able to make separate class mechanics and spells that don't need to take into account for perfect numbers or savage content, but those who like the competitive edge in raids wont have to loose out on anything either since their balanced class mechanics would essentially be separated and untouched.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

If they did this they wouldn't have to worry about having coded themselves into a Balance-box with Casual content and they would now just be able to make separate class mechanics and spells that don't need to take into account for perfect numbers or savage content, but those who like the competitive edge in raids wont have to loose out on anything either since their balanced class mechanics would essentially be separated and untouched.

---

So... they would make 2 versions of each class: one for "serious content" where they care about balance, and one for "casual content" where they can just make whatever?

If balance doesn't matter in casual content why do you need a new version of the job? If it doesn't matter why can't you use the "serious" version of the job and just not care if you play non optimally?
If the goal is to "[not] need to take into account for perfect numbers or savage content" then what you run outside of Savage shouldn't matter.

If they did spend time separating them... if anything that would just hurt job balance. If they have to spend time making separate class mechanics and spells for every job, that's less time they can spend balancing the version of the jobs that needs balancing.

I really don't see what this request accomplishes beyond wasting SE's time.

Quote:

---

If they did spend time separating them... if anything that would just hurt job balance. If they have to spend time making separate class mechanics and spells for every job, that's less time they can spend balancing the version of the jobs that needs balancing.

I really don't see what this request accomplishes beyond wasting SE's time.

---

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.

balance SHOULD matter in casual content, but BALANCE should NOT take priority over FUN and unique mechanics and gameplay, CASUAL content should be built to appease CASUAL players, just as COMPETITIVE content should be built to appease COMPETITIVE players.

as ive stated enough times before, SE has trapped themselves in a box of balance, so much to the point where classes and their abilities and numbers are basically built around being viable for savage gameplay, and anything that so much as steps toe outside of this box is apparently so game breaking its just disregarded as NoT PoSsIbLe, even though the extreme and savage gameplay only accounts for 10% max percent of all the game has to offer, meanwhile the players who dont even do competitive content like that are just left with the "eh... there's nothing wrong with your class " people.

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem? Why do you think so many ppl are upset, and have even dropped the healer role all together? Why do you think so many ppl are upset with the way they did Blue-mage (arguably one of the most interesting and wanted classes, a borderline staple to the entire franchise) -- ruined and thrown out all to appease Competitive gameplay , which again, is not really even 10% of the game.

No, it would not hurt job balance, nor would it be a waste of time if they were to separate the 2 areas. In fact it would open up the dorr to so much possibility and freedom in class, level and dungen design SE could take advantage of -- it would give them a way out from the box they've built (hek, they could possibly even still let the competitive sets be able to be played in casual areas, just for thoes who like the old ways), but regardless there needs to be something done about the rift between the 2 player bases, but as it is now the vibe im sensing from the devs are Competitive endgame is the way to go, and Casuals be damed -- or at the very least thats the vibe im getting from the Elites.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.

---

That's like comparing apples and apple sauce. They're similar, but one shouldn't try and mistake one for the other.
When you do PvE content, regardless of wether you're fighting a boss with elaborate mechanics or a boss with laxer ones, you're interacting with the boss in the same way: you are engaged with a single target for a long time and the boss isn't moving around much. That's nothing like PvP. Combat vs a boss and combat vs a player are just structured so differently that having different kits in each isn't about balance, it's about trying to make your job fundamentally work in very different content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

balance SHOULD matter in casual content, but BALANCE should NOT take priority over FUN and unique mechanics and gameplay, CASUAL content should be built to appease CASUAL players, just as COMPETITIVE content should be built to appease COMPETITIVE players. [...]but regardless there needs to be something done about the rift between the 2 player bases,

---

I don't believe the rift is as big as the forums make it out to be, but regardless this solution would do nothing but further separate the two in ways I don't think would be to the game's benefit overall.

Well yes but actually no. More skillsets would be annoying and i dont wanna be put into a category..

But yes, tuning everything around savage which is only run by so many ppl and only makes up so much content is a terrible shackle...

I get savages, but extremes? Are they really that hard?
I mean, Jade Stoa is a 1 minute fight. Literally.

Only extremes I can think of that are actually "hard" is Emerald, the new Diamond, and perhaps Hades for some? Most of the time extreme fights are basic and have common mechs, just a bit more of them than usual.

Or am I wrong?

im getting closer to end game on my character and im wondering what the issue you are trying to fix here? what does savage and extreme stuff have to do with normal tier? are jobs being excluded from content? is there some kind of toxic elitist meta slave mentality at end game? genuinely curious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by soccerdude8

are jobs being excluded from content?

---

RDM's had a tough time finding groups for TEA, but that's about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by soccerdude8

Is there some kind of toxic elitist meta slave mentality at end game?

---

No, there is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by soccerdude8

im getting closer to end game on my character and im wondering what the issue you are trying to fix here? what does savage and extreme stuff have to do with normal tier? are jobs being excluded from content? is there some kind of toxic elitist meta slave mentality at end game? genuinely curious.

---

the devs are focusing and revolving the job system too heavily around number prefect balance in casual gameply, when that stuff is mainly for the comppetitive realm.
and in turn Classes have become more homogenized (espeically evident in the healer, and a bit of the tank role), Class identify is sacrificed, cool and fun mechanics are thrown out (again, just look at what SE did to the healer role when shadowbringers hit, they literally ripped from our classes more abilities from us than they gave back -- abilities of which were arguably the funniest aspects of the jobs that also highlighted their uniqueness and made them feel powerful and cool -- not to mention one more the disgrace that has been shoved upon blue mage for the sake of balance when 90%+ of the game is "casual".

If they could give those lacking classes back their uniqueness, and fun mechanics, and make the limited jobs able to join everyone else in the casual-gameplay realm without the dumb limitations the problem would pretty much honestly be solved, but as ive mentioned multiple times before; that plastic box the devs coded themselves into may need a more...solid solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

the devs are focusing and revolving the job system too heavily around number prefect balance in casual gameply, when that stuff is mainly for the comppetitive realm.
and in turn Classes have become more homogenized (espeically evident in the healer, and a bit of the tank role), Class identify is sacrificed, cool and fun mechanics are thrown out (again, just look at what SE did to the healer role when shadowbringers hit, they literally ripped from our classes more abilities from us than they gave back -- abilities of which were arguably the funniest aspects of the jobs that also highlighted their uniqueness and made them feel powerful and cool -- not to mention one more the disgrace that has been shoved upon blue mage for the sake of balance when 90%+ of the game is "casual".

If they could give those lacking classes back their uniqueness, and fun mechanics, and make the limited jobs able to join everyone else in the casual-gameplay realm without the dumb limitations the problem would pretty much honestly be solved, but as ive mentioned multiple times before; that plastic box the devs coded themselves into may need a more...solid solution.

---

I'll agree with you that certain classes/jobs have become boring/uninteresting... but I feel like you're just acting too entitled and opinionated, and just excusing this by saying "this isn't CASUAL ENOUGH!"
Plus your rhetoric here is really, really antagonistic so even if you were wanting to make a point here... it gets lost in the bias of "I'm not interested in Savage nor Extreme content so the devs should stop putting time into it and let me enjoy the game how I feel it should be designed! Here's why:"

Like... I'd call myself casual, but I also do stuff like savage, extreme, and even ultimates. Though this would just lead down a rabbit hole of "how do you define 'casual'?" and I've neither the patience nor energy for that here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.
That's kinda how it used to be? But I also am not as big into PvP so bear that bias and lack of knowledge in mind when i say:
PvP is bad. It's boring bad. It's untenable bad. It's laughably bad. The developers just can't seem to hit that note that draws people into it. I feel like them removing the old system of skills to just having PvP and PvE skills be distinct and separate was an attempt to draw more people in to it... but it failed to do so IMO.
So. They tried that before, and it didn't work how they wanted it to.

balance SHOULD matter in casual content, but BALANCE should NOT take priority over FUN and unique mechanics and gameplay, CASUAL content should be built to appease CASUAL players, just as COMPETITIVE content should be built to appease COMPETITIVE players.
Again here you conflate CASUAL FUN to DISINTERESTED LACK OF CARE. If balance matters, then you're clearly not understanding how the term works if you're gonna hold it up against """fun""" as a comparison/contrast, in this context. SE's mantra of "All content can be done by all jobs" is WHY things are balanced as such they are, so that anyone can do it, i.e. participate in the fun, and not feel excluded as is the case in other games. And for the love of god. Competitive -v- Casual? I've seen some of the most combative and competitive attitudes from some of the most """Casual""" players thus far in this game.

as ive stated enough times before, SE has trapped themselves in a box of balance, so much to the point where classes and their abilities and numbers are basically built around being viable for savage gameplay, and anything that so much as steps toe outside of this box is apparently so game breaking its just disregarded as NoT PoSsIbLe, even though the extreme and savage gameplay only accounts for 10% max percent of all the game has to offer, meanwhile the players who dont even do competitive content like that are just left with the "eh... there's nothing wrong with your class " people.
...what are you even ranting about here? No, honestly, what are you on about here?? If something is viable for savage then it's viable for literally everything. What "steps toe out of line?" I'ma need an example of something that does that that IS NOT A BUG, nor BLUE MAGE. BLU, for what the director has said, was purposely designed to be separate from the other combat jobs because {reasons}. If you're really that bent about it being excluded from things like Savage... which you don't do anyyways? Then yeah, that's a fair point, because if 8 tanks can clear UCoB then 8 BLUs should be 100% able to as well.
And frankly, why should the developers care what someone has to say about X, if people don't even participate in X?? I don't participate in the gold saucer stuff, nor do I participate much in crafting, so why should the developers listen to what I'd have to say about it other than, if they implement a thing and I try it out, say "nah i'm good, no thanks," and go about my way? If you want to see something improved, become involved in it. Learn about it. Put some time in to understanding how it functions. That's how meaningful change is enacted.

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem? Why do you think so many ppl are upset, and have even dropped the healer role all together? Why do you think so many ppl are upset with the way they did Blue-mage (arguably one of the most interesting and wanted classes, a borderline staple to the entire franchise) -- ruined and thrown out all to appease Competitive gameplay , which again, is not really even 10% of the game.
regarding healer: Yes. People are mad. They dropped the ball. Don't for a second think SE hasn't noticed. If in 6.0 healers are just as bad gameplay-wise, then expect some really fast hotfixes and mid-expansion adjustments to it akin to Monk and Ninja. As well there was a post in the healer section that's pretty succinct in this situation. I'll post the link outside of this quote.
now regarding BLU: Yes, BLU was done dirty. I don't really enjoy BLU, but the idea of it i'll always find intriguing. Even in other games where things like it are implemented; it's just not to my liking. But yes I do think BLU could do with a rework and an actual, full-on integration with the rest of the combat classes. Just keep it on topic. Post in the BLU section of the forums. Keep a single megathread going so the developers can see that, yes, there is still a want to see BLU being a non-limited job. Be productive.

No, it would not hurt job balance, nor would it be a waste of time if they were to separate the 2 areas. In fact it would open up the dorr to so much possibility and freedom in class, level and dungen design SE could take advantage of -- it would give them a way out from the box they've built (hek, they could possibly even still let the competitive sets be able to be played in casual areas, just for thoes who like the old ways), but regardless there needs to be something done about the rift between the 2 player bases, but as it is now the vibe im sensing from the devs are Competitive endgame is the way to go, and Casuals be damed -- or at the very least thats the vibe im getting from the Elites.
No. Stop it. Don't want/wish for player segregation. That's not helpful to the life of this game. It even defeats the very story of the game: overcoming differences and working together with others you might not otherwise do so to accomplish a shared goal. Did you miss that part of the MSQ? It's happened a lot, so I'd find it hard to have missed that bit. As well again seeing how you feel """casual players""" are makes me kind of sad to call myself "casual." given your description I surmise from your posts here.

---

Refer to the bold within the quoted above.
Link mentioned: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5542882

Yes, I want to spend x hours learning to play my job through loads of casual content, only to have to start all over again when I get to my first Extreme trial...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Yes, I want to spend x hours learning to play my job through loads of casual content, only to have to start all over again when I get to my first Extreme trial...

---

as im fairly sure i stated in one of my messages, the devs wouldn't need to do away with the current job setups in casual, players could even choose to use them in casual content if thats what they prefer, but i was saying it would be good if there was a separate style/loadout for the casual players, people who value fun and class design over homogenized number perfect balance mechanics when in casual content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

as im fairly sure i stated in one of my messages, the devs wouldn't need to do away with the current job setups in casual, players could even choose to use them in casual content if thats what they prefer, but i was saying it would be good if there was a separate style/loadout for the casual players, people who value fun and class design over homogenized number perfect balance mechanics when in casual content.

---

your opinion of fun != everyone elses.
"The devs should make a casual rotation and a hardcore raider rotation!"
Okay, so now you can get criticized and flamed by using the "Weaker worse" rotation in content. That what you want, to give toxic people more ammo to be toxic with?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

your opinion of fun != everyone elses.
"The devs should make a casual rotation and a hardcore raider rotation!"
Okay, so now you can get criticized and flamed by using the "Weaker worse" rotation in content. That what you want, to give toxic people more ammo to be toxic with?

---

and thus we are back at the start. "we dont want elite and toxic players to rage out so lets cater to them, screw the casual players."

There are lots of games that say "screw the casual players," and many of them die shortly after, ffxiv is definitely not among them. Where the dev team have taken balance is consistently their choice and it errs on the side of "make this easier to play" and "simplify the mechanics of this job to absurdity" which are not things "elitists" have ever asked for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.

---

They actually came out and admitted why. It became an absolute nightmare balancing the two different modes due to how PvE and PvP gameplay are fundamentally different in how they approach their given objective. PvP is unpredictable and meant to be quick "skirmishes" of sorts. Hence the significantly lower HP players have. Contrast that to Savage content which are essentially the exact same fight except with beefed up numbers and a few more mechanics. In fact, Savage encounters are actually designed first and subsequently stripped down for their Normal mode equivalent. If they were to separate the jobs, it essentially doubles their workload for very little benefit. Casual content in this game is incredibly easy. There's little process to adding defensive buffs, crowd control or stuff of that nature when the content is tuned low enough brute force is always the answer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem? Why do you think so many ppl are upset, and have even dropped the healer role all together? Why do you think so many ppl are upset with the way they did Blue-mage (arguably one of the most interesting and wanted classes, a borderline staple to the entire franchise) -- ruined and thrown out all to appease Competitive gameplay , which again, is not really even 10% of the game.

---

This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with their boring design. Even last expansion, White Mage remained widely more popular at the casual level than Astro despite the latter being objectively better and outright necessary to parse. What changed is SE oversimplifying them in an attempt to attract newer players to the role they perceived was "too intimidating". If anything, separating the jobs would make the casual experience worse not better since every job would be tuned with to the most basic level plausible since their only demographic for the "casual content" would be well casual players. By which I mean, players who barely have any idea what they're doing. They aren't going to add any complicated job designs as that goes against the very intent of separating jobs. Meanwhile, this would make getting into raids far more difficult. Not only would new raiders potentially have to relearn their selected job, but face content scaled far above their level since.

Additionally, the expectation of players who do the higher level content would be much higher as EX/Savage are literally designed to be fundamentally different in your hypothetical. Put simply, you're asking for a system which further segregates and excludes players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

and thus we are back at the start. "we dont want elite and toxic players to rage out so lets cater to them, screw the casual players."

---

If all you do is dungeons for roulettes, leveling, glamour farm, or whatever, then there's no real reason to give much thought to playing at top levels. Stop dismissing poor player behavior and anti-group mentality in an MMO of all things by blanket excusing it as "cAsUaLs ArEnT bEiNg CaTeReD tO." Because casual players are.
"Oh no I was pressing nothing but chaos thrust in dungeon and the tank got mad and yelled at me."
Yeah, if you're holding back 3 other people and wasting their time like that I'd be annoyed to. Granted it's a dungeon so I couldn't personally care less, and if someone's being vitriolic, report them. But being told "stop wasting peoples time because you're unwilling to put in a bare minimum of effort to try" is not toxic, it's a response to someone else's toxic mindset; i.e. 'my fun and enjoyment > 3 other peoples time and fun.'

Raid rewards aren't exciting. The ultimate got delayed. What else is there for """hardcore""" raiders to do but log in on [day], clear out the tier, then go about their way? Maybe cap tomestones for the week.
Meanwhile crafting got an overhaul. Gathering got touched up. Gold Saucer got some tweaks in TT. Mahjong was added. Fishing was expanded upon with this ocean fishing thing. Ishgard Restoration. New emotes were added and the ability to consume a food item furnishing while seated to help further immerse role players.

Stop trying to make excuses because you feel you need to justify how oPpReSsEd CaSuAl GaMeRs are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Stop trying to make excuses because you feel you need to justify how oPpReSsEd CaSuAl GaMeRs are.

---

im not justyfying "how oPpReSsEd CaSuAl GaMeRs are" , i just want our class(s) to be fun and engaging to play, but apparently that and the number perfect balance SE is prioritizing cannot coexist...or can it...

If your not happy being a scholar trying playing Blackmage.
Or maybe even AST. It more fun then playing SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem?

---

Is there a permanent shortage of healers on some servers? On my DC it hasn't been an issue that I've noticed since the initial rush of GNB levelling naturally meant healers were in demand. Now it's back to the usual state of varying between tank and healer, but more often tank.

Plus, even if all jobs were played perfectly evenly, you'd still get healers in demand by simple maths. There are 4 tanks, 3 healers and 10(?) DPS. Group them into parties and you have a tank and 4 DPS left over. Healer is in need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Is there a permanent shortage of healers on some servers? On my DC it hasn't been an issue that I've noticed since the initial rush of GNB levelling naturally meant healers were in demand. Now it's back to the usual state of varying between tank and healer, but more often tank.

Plus, even if all jobs were played perfectly evenly, you'd still get healers in demand by simple maths. There are 4 tanks, 3 healers and 10(?) DPS. Group them into parties and you have a tank and 4 DPS left over. Healer is in need.

---

Logically speaking, -- assuming if the classes were played at least somewhat evenly -- if a raid requires 2 tanks, 4 DPS, and 2 healers, shouldn't the DPS more often then not be in high demand, since it takes four of them them to fill their respective role, it would be the tanks and healers who would be not in demand since it would only take 2 of each to fill their role, where as dps it would take twice as many players -- this is assuming there was no specific bias tward role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Logically speaking, -- assuming if the classes were played at least somewhat evenly -- if a raid requires 2 tanks, 4 DPS, and 2 healers, shouldn't the DPS more often then not be in high demand, since it takes four of them them to fill their respective role, it would be the tanks and healers who would be not in demand since it would only take 2 of each to fill their role, where as dps it would take twice as many players -- this is assuming there was no specific bias tward role.

---

That depends whether you're talking about dividing people across roles or jobs.

If you have 18 players split evenly into roles (so 6 tanks, 6 healers, 6 DPS) then yes, you'd be short of DPS.

But if they are split evenly across jobs (so 4 tanks, 3 healers, 10 DPS) then you are short on healers and overstocked on DPS, as I was saying in my previous post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Logically speaking, -- assuming if the classes were played at least somewhat evenly -- if a raid requires 2 tanks, 4 DPS, and 2 healers, shouldn't the DPS more often then not be in high demand, since it takes four of them them to fill their respective role, it would be the tanks and healers who would be not in demand since it would only take 2 of each to fill their role, where as dps it would take twice as many players -- this is assuming there was no specific bias tward role.

---

But the player base is biased towards role. When a new job is added to a role it does not increase the number of players playing that role it redistributes the existing players already playing that role. based on queuing patterns the ratio of Tanks:Healers:dps is 1.5:1.9:5 with a variance of about +/-.3. The DpS tend to also break down into a 2:1:1 ratio of Melee:Ranged:Casters

The number of jobs in each role is more or less based upon this bias which is why Endwalker will have a 4:4:11(5:3:3) job distribution

If they made jobs have a different rotation and playfeel in savage and extreme than you've made it so that the only place to actually learn how your job plays is in extreme, increasing the skill gap for players for absolutely no gain. No one, i repeat *literally not one person* wants to have to relearn their job from scratch just because they stepped into Paglth'an. No one.

They don't balance around dungeons anyways, they balance around clears in difficult content. And they generally do so with buffs. And those buffs don't make your dungeons harder.

You literally do not have a valid complaint here, none of it makes sense.