Why dont they just separate the two?

[P0W3RK1D]

I think everything could work if they separated the EX/SAVAGE content (the content that actually revolves around balance and homogenized/scripted gameplay) Vs Casual play, normal raids, and DNGS (places that can afford a little diversity and leniency in terms of gameplay mechanics.

SE separated PVP and PVE -- PVP has what is basically a different skill hotbar for every class, and even a few spells that the classes themselves don't have for PVE. Why cant they do the same For Casual vs Competitive play by separating Casual vs Competitive classes and abilities so everyone has fun.

If they did this they wouldn't have to worry about having coded themselves into a Balance-box with Casual content and they would now just be able to make separate class mechanics and spells that don't need to take into account for perfect numbers or savage content, but those who like the competitive edge in raids wont have to loose out on anything either since their balanced class mechanics would essentially be separated and untouched.

[ItMe]

If they did this they wouldn't have to worry about having coded themselves into a Balance-box with Casual content and they would now just be able to make separate class mechanics and spells that don't need to take into account for perfect numbers or savage content, but those who like the competitive edge in raids wont have to loose out on anything either since their balanced class mechanics would essentially be separated and untouched.

So... they would make 2 versions of each class: one for "serious content" where they care about balance, and one for "casual content" where they can just make whatever?

If balance doesn't matter in casual content why do you need a new version of the job? If it doesn't matter why can't you use the "serious" version of the job and just not care if you play non optimally?
If the goal is to "[not] need to take into account for perfect numbers or savage content" then what you run outside of Savage shouldn't matter.

If they did spend time separating them... if anything that would just hurt job balance. If they have to spend time making separate class mechanics and spells for every job, that's less time they can spend balancing the version of the jobs that needs balancing.

I really don't see what this request accomplishes beyond wasting SE's time.

[P0W3RK1D]

If they did spend time separating them... if anything that would just hurt job balance. If they have to spend time making separate class mechanics and spells for every job, that's less time they can spend balancing the version of the jobs that needs balancing.

I really don't see what this request accomplishes beyond wasting SE's time.

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.

balance SHOULD matter in casual content, but BALANCE should NOT take priority over FUN and unique mechanics and gameplay, CASUAL content should be built to appease CASUAL players, just as COMPETITIVE content should be built to appease COMPETITIVE players.

as ive stated enough times before, SE has trapped themselves in a box of balance, so much to the point where classes and their abilities and numbers are basically built around being viable for savage gameplay, and anything that so much as steps toe outside of this box is apparently so game breaking its just disregarded as NoT PoSsIbLe, even though the extreme and savage gameplay only accounts for 10% max percent of all the game has to offer, meanwhile the players who dont even do competitive content like that are just left with the "eh... there's nothing wrong with your class " people.

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem? Why do you think so many ppl are upset, and have even dropped the healer role all together? Why do you think so many ppl are upset with the way they did Blue-mage (arguably one of the most interesting and wanted classes, a borderline staple to the entire franchise) -- ruined and thrown out all to appease Competitive gameplay , which again, is not really even 10% of the game.

No, it would not hurt job balance, nor would it be a waste of time if they were to separate the 2 areas. In fact it would open up the dorr to so much possibility and freedom in class, level and dungen design SE could take advantage of -- it would give them a way out from the box they've built (hek, they could possibly even still let the competitive sets be able to be played in casual areas, just for thoes who like the old ways), but regardless there needs to be something done about the rift between the 2 player bases, but as it is now the vibe im sensing from the devs are Competitive endgame is the way to go, and Casuals be damed -- or at the very least thats the vibe im getting from the Elites.

[ItMe]

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.

That's like comparing apples and apple sauce. They're similar, but one shouldn't try and mistake one for the other.
When you do PvE content, regardless of wether you're fighting a boss with elaborate mechanics or a boss with laxer ones, you're interacting with the boss in the same way: you are engaged with a single target for a long time and the boss isn't moving around much. That's nothing like PvP. Combat vs a boss and combat vs a player are just structured so differently that having different kits in each isn't about balance, it's about trying to make your job fundamentally work in very different content.

balance SHOULD matter in casual content, but BALANCE should NOT take priority over FUN and unique mechanics and gameplay, CASUAL content should be built to appease CASUAL players, just as COMPETITIVE content should be built to appease COMPETITIVE players. [...]but regardless there needs to be something done about the rift between the 2 player bases,

I don't believe the rift is as big as the forums make it out to be, but regardless this solution would do nothing but further separate the two in ways I don't think would be to the game's benefit overall.

[Kuroka]

Well yes but actually no. More skillsets would be annoying and i dont wanna be put into a category..

But yes, tuning everything around savage which is only run by so many ppl and only makes up so much content is a terrible shackle...

[Coletergeist]

I get savages, but extremes? Are they really that hard?
I mean, Jade Stoa is a 1 minute fight. Literally.

Only extremes I can think of that are actually "hard" is Emerald, the new Diamond, and perhaps Hades for some? Most of the time extreme fights are basic and have common mechs, just a bit more of them than usual.

Or am I wrong?

[soccerdude8]

im getting closer to end game on my character and im wondering what the issue you are trying to fix here? what does savage and extreme stuff have to do with normal tier? are jobs being excluded from content? is there some kind of toxic elitist meta slave mentality at end game? genuinely curious.

[ItMe]

are jobs being excluded from content?

RDM's had a tough time finding groups for TEA, but that's about it.

Is there some kind of toxic elitist meta slave mentality at end game?

No, there is not.

[P0W3RK1D]

im getting closer to end game on my character and im wondering what the issue you are trying to fix here? what does savage and extreme stuff have to do with normal tier? are jobs being excluded from content? is there some kind of toxic elitist meta slave mentality at end game? genuinely curious.

the devs are focusing and revolving the job system too heavily around number prefect balance in casual gameply, when that stuff is mainly for the comppetitive realm.
and in turn Classes have become more homogenized (espeically evident in the healer, and a bit of the tank role), Class identify is sacrificed, cool and fun mechanics are thrown out (again, just look at what SE did to the healer role when shadowbringers hit, they literally ripped from our classes more abilities from us than they gave back -- abilities of which were arguably the funniest aspects of the jobs that also highlighted their uniqueness and made them feel powerful and cool -- not to mention one more the disgrace that has been shoved upon blue mage for the sake of balance when 90%+ of the game is "casual".

If they could give those lacking classes back their uniqueness, and fun mechanics, and make the limited jobs able to join everyone else in the casual-gameplay realm without the dumb limitations the problem would pretty much honestly be solved, but as ive mentioned multiple times before; that plastic box the devs coded themselves into may need a more...solid solution.

[WhyAmIHere]

the devs are focusing and revolving the job system too heavily around number prefect balance in casual gameply, when that stuff is mainly for the comppetitive realm.
and in turn Classes have become more homogenized (espeically evident in the healer, and a bit of the tank role), Class identify is sacrificed, cool and fun mechanics are thrown out (again, just look at what SE did to the healer role when shadowbringers hit, they literally ripped from our classes more abilities from us than they gave back -- abilities of which were arguably the funniest aspects of the jobs that also highlighted their uniqueness and made them feel powerful and cool -- not to mention one more the disgrace that has been shoved upon blue mage for the sake of balance when 90%+ of the game is "casual".

If they could give those lacking classes back their uniqueness, and fun mechanics, and make the limited jobs able to join everyone else in the casual-gameplay realm without the dumb limitations the problem would pretty much honestly be solved, but as ive mentioned multiple times before; that plastic box the devs coded themselves into may need a more...solid solution.

I'll agree with you that certain classes/jobs have become boring/uninteresting... but I feel like you're just acting too entitled and opinionated, and just excusing this by saying "this isn't CASUAL ENOUGH!"
Plus your rhetoric here is really, really antagonistic so even if you were wanting to make a point here... it gets lost in the bias of "I'm not interested in Savage nor Extreme content so the devs should stop putting time into it and let me enjoy the game how I feel it should be designed! Here's why:"

Like... I'd call myself casual, but I also do stuff like savage, extreme, and even ultimates. Though this would just lead down a rabbit hole of "how do you define 'casual'?" and I've neither the patience nor energy for that here.

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.
That's kinda how it used to be? But I also am not as big into PvP so bear that bias and lack of knowledge in mind when i say:
PvP is bad. It's boring bad. It's untenable bad. It's laughably bad. The developers just can't seem to hit that note that draws people into it. I feel like them removing the old system of skills to just having PvP and PvE skills be distinct and separate was an attempt to draw more people in to it... but it failed to do so IMO.
So. They tried that before, and it didn't work how they wanted it to.

balance SHOULD matter in casual content, but BALANCE should NOT take priority over FUN and unique mechanics and gameplay, CASUAL content should be built to appease CASUAL players, just as COMPETITIVE content should be built to appease COMPETITIVE players.
Again here you conflate CASUAL FUN to DISINTERESTED LACK OF CARE. If balance matters, then you're clearly not understanding how the term works if you're gonna hold it up against """fun""" as a comparison/contrast, in this context. SE's mantra of "All content can be done by all jobs" is WHY things are balanced as such they are, so that anyone can do it, i.e. participate in the fun, and not feel excluded as is the case in other games. And for the love of god. Competitive -v- Casual? I've seen some of the most combative and competitive attitudes from some of the most """Casual""" players thus far in this game.

as ive stated enough times before, SE has trapped themselves in a box of balance, so much to the point where classes and their abilities and numbers are basically built around being viable for savage gameplay, and anything that so much as steps toe outside of this box is apparently so game breaking its just disregarded as NoT PoSsIbLe, even though the extreme and savage gameplay only accounts for 10% max percent of all the game has to offer, meanwhile the players who dont even do competitive content like that are just left with the "eh... there's nothing wrong with your class " people.
...what are you even ranting about here? No, honestly, what are you on about here?? If something is viable for savage then it's viable for literally everything. What "steps toe out of line?" I'ma need an example of something that does that that IS NOT A BUG, nor BLUE MAGE. BLU, for what the director has said, was purposely designed to be separate from the other combat jobs because {reasons}. If you're really that bent about it being excluded from things like Savage... which you don't do anyyways? Then yeah, that's a fair point, because if 8 tanks can clear UCoB then 8 BLUs should be 100% able to as well.
And frankly, why should the developers care what someone has to say about X, if people don't even participate in X?? I don't participate in the gold saucer stuff, nor do I participate much in crafting, so why should the developers listen to what I'd have to say about it other than, if they implement a thing and I try it out, say "nah i'm good, no thanks," and go about my way? If you want to see something improved, become involved in it. Learn about it. Put some time in to understanding how it functions. That's how meaningful change is enacted.

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem? Why do you think so many ppl are upset, and have even dropped the healer role all together? Why do you think so many ppl are upset with the way they did Blue-mage (arguably one of the most interesting and wanted classes, a borderline staple to the entire franchise) -- ruined and thrown out all to appease Competitive gameplay , which again, is not really even 10% of the game.
regarding healer: Yes. People are mad. They dropped the ball. Don't for a second think SE hasn't noticed. If in 6.0 healers are just as bad gameplay-wise, then expect some really fast hotfixes and mid-expansion adjustments to it akin to Monk and Ninja. As well there was a post in the healer section that's pretty succinct in this situation. I'll post the link outside of this quote.
now regarding BLU: Yes, BLU was done dirty. I don't really enjoy BLU, but the idea of it i'll always find intriguing. Even in other games where things like it are implemented; it's just not to my liking. But yes I do think BLU could do with a rework and an actual, full-on integration with the rest of the combat classes. Just keep it on topic. Post in the BLU section of the forums. Keep a single megathread going so the developers can see that, yes, there is still a want to see BLU being a non-limited job. Be productive.

No, it would not hurt job balance, nor would it be a waste of time if they were to separate the 2 areas. In fact it would open up the dorr to so much possibility and freedom in class, level and dungen design SE could take advantage of -- it would give them a way out from the box they've built (hek, they could possibly even still let the competitive sets be able to be played in casual areas, just for thoes who like the old ways), but regardless there needs to be something done about the rift between the 2 player bases, but as it is now the vibe im sensing from the devs are Competitive endgame is the way to go, and Casuals be damed -- or at the very least thats the vibe im getting from the Elites.
No. Stop it. Don't want/wish for player segregation. That's not helpful to the life of this game. It even defeats the very story of the game: overcoming differences and working together with others you might not otherwise do so to accomplish a shared goal. Did you miss that part of the MSQ? It's happened a lot, so I'd find it hard to have missed that bit. As well again seeing how you feel """casual players""" are makes me kind of sad to call myself "casual." given your description I surmise from your posts here.

Refer to the bold within the quoted above.
Link mentioned: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5542882