Change how <100% drop rate items are given while in a party

So my partner and I have been working on the current relic weapon together. We've only progressed it when playing together, never solo. Certain aspects, like doing FATEs and Palace of the Dead, require getting items that don't have a 100% drop rate. Because of this, we often end up with varying different amounts and one will complete it long before the other. As of right now, we've done PotD 1-100 and then 51-80; he has 8 timeworn artifacts and I have 1. I got mine in 21-30 and haven't seen once since. Meanwhile he's over half done, but he'll still have to continue doing it anyway because I won't be finished for quite some time.

What I would like is for things involving a drop that isn't a 100% chance, when people complete it as a party together and have the same quest step active, if it triggers a drop all applicable party members should get it.

Obviously to avoid exploiting it, it would just be a drop chance per party and not per person.

This would make it a lot more enjoyable without effectively nerfing it by changing the drop chance. It seems like stuff like this actually discourages playing together because you'll never progress at the same pace.

Just in case anyone misunderstands, I'm not saying to change the drop rates, I just think it would be better if people playing as a party got drops at the same rate.

That annoyed me quite a bit during the Yokai event too.
This is a change I would like to see.

rngesus is rngesus. it giveth and it taketh away.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

That annoyed me quite a bit during the Yokai event too.
This is a change I would like to see.

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Yes! We were also doing that event and the drops were so inconsistent between the two of us, it made it really frustrating.

I'm not saying I disagree, what you suggest would make more sense I think, but for the timeworn artifacts specifically, delubrum gives a guaranteed drop after each run, so the two of you can do that together and still progress at the same pace.

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Originally Posted by Haventale

I'm not saying I disagree, what you suggest would make more sense I think, but for the timeworn artifacts specifically, delubrum gives a guaranteed drop after each run, so the two of you can do that together and still progress at the same pace.

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I'd really rather not. I just had to do like 50 alliance raids for the last couple steps of the relic and I'm enjoying not having to suffer through other people failing to meet the minimum requirement for playing. Plus we play at odd hours, so it's not always convenient. I think the whole point of having options is being able to pick whichever one suits you best, rather than whichever is guaranteed because the other option is harder since two people don't get the items at the same rate.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

So my partner and I have been working on the current relic weapon together. We've only progressed it when playing together, never solo. Certain aspects, like doing FATEs and Palace of the Dead, require getting items that don't have a 100% drop rate. Because of this, we often end up with varying different amounts and one will complete it long before the other. As of right now, we've done PotD 1-100 and then 51-80; he has 8 timeworn artifacts and I have 1. I got mine in 21-30 and haven't seen once since. Meanwhile he's over half done, but he'll still have to continue doing it anyway because I won't be finished for quite some time.

What I would like is for things involving a drop that isn't a 100% chance, when people complete it as a party together and have the same quest step active, if it triggers a drop all applicable party members should get it.

Obviously to avoid exploiting it, it would just be a drop chance per party and not per person.

This would make it a lot more enjoyable without effectively nerfing it by changing the drop chance. It seems like stuff like this actually discourages playing together because you'll never progress at the same pace.

Just in case anyone misunderstands, I'm not saying to change the drop rates, I just think it would be better if people playing as a party got drops at the same rate.

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RNG is RNG, but yeah. If you're in a group with someone doing content you should be rewarded together. It's a simple QoL change that is needed.

If you'd have done Delubrum Reginae instead of PotD, then you'd each have about 5 by now.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

RNG is RNG, but yeah. If you're in a group with someone doing content you should be rewarded together. It's a simple QoL change that is needed.

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It's possible to share out RNG rolls throughout a party.
For example Blue Mage. Learning spells in RNG, but if one BLU in the party learns the spell, everyone done.

The problem is likely distinguishing premade partial parties from the full party.
You might have loaded in with a friend, but what about the other two in the party?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I'd really rather not. I just had to do like 50 alliance raids for the last couple steps of the relic and I'm enjoying not having to suffer through other people failing to meet the minimum requirement for playing. Plus we play at odd hours, so it's not always convenient. I think the whole point of having options is being able to pick whichever one suits you best, rather than whichever is guaranteed because the other option is harder since two people don't get the items at the same rate.

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Yeah but let’s be honest, you’ve chosen the easiest option. And now you’re complaining about that.

It’s fine as it is.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The problem is likely distinguishing premade partial parties from the full party.
You might have loaded in with a friend, but what about the other two in the party?

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he said chance per party, so they'd get it too in this case, i'd wager. i'd honestly like that as well as playing with a friend makes grinding much easier, but when one is getting lucky and the other isn't it ends up being frustrating and then you end up holding the other player hostage if they dont leave.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If you'd have done Delubrum Reginae instead of PotD, then you'd each have about 5 by now.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Yeah but let’s be honest, you’ve chosen the easiest option. And now you’re complaining about that.

It’s fine as it is.

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Did you... not read all of what my post said? Though honestly, I should've placed money on my bet that someone would come here and say it's fine. It's not fine. You're fixating on the wrong part, so let me elaborate.

Many different aspects of the game require RNG drops for quests. Relics, events (see: Yokai), etc. and give drops differently than others that have a 100% drop rate. Because they're not 100%, people who do the same content, even together, simultaneously, do not get the rewards at an equal rate. This is not about the relic quest itself, it was just an example I used because the entire time we've been doing it, at literally every single step where there wasn't always a 100% drop option, we got extremely uneven drops and one would be long finished before the other. There's many different quests of this variety in this quest line, so I couldn't help but notice it because it's right in front of my face. It's not about the relic, Palace of the Dead, Delubrum, whatever. It's about how people in parties should get drops equally. Do you understand?

I'm not complaining because "boo hoo the relic is too grindy, wah", it's that my partner and I can do the literal exact same thing and he gets 8x as many drops as I do. It doesn't make sense, no matter what it is.

But anyway, thanks for your constructive input. I'll definitely take it into consideration.

Let's just boil this down to what it really is. Sour grapes for you not getting as much as quickly. As with a lot of things in this game as in life, not everything is fair and just best to suck it up and move on, lest you become bitter about the whole thing and quit altogether. Once you get over yourself, then you'll find things become a lot easier to handle. So what if you didn't get as much as your friend even though you were in the same party? There will come a point when the situation is reversed.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Let's just boil this down to what it really is. Sour grapes for you not getting as much as quickly. As with a lot of things in this game as in life, not everything is fair and just best to suck it up and move on, lest you become bitter about the whole thing and quit altogether. Once you get over yourself, then you'll find things become a lot easier to handle. So what if you didn't get as much as your friend even though you were in the same party? There will come a point when the situation is reversed.

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Thanks for your help, appreciate it. Where would I be without your sagely advice. I'm giving you attention now, since you're so clearly mad that I ignored you before, happy?

Also, I said he's my partner. Not my friend.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Let's just boil this down to what it really is. Sour grapes for you not getting as much as quickly. As with a lot of things in this game as in life, not everything is fair and just best to suck it up and move on, lest you become bitter about the whole thing and quit altogether. Once you get over yourself, then you'll find things become a lot easier to handle. So what if you didn't get as much as your friend even though you were in the same party? There will come a point when the situation is reversed.

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Yeah the reversed situation... Do you know what is even more frustrating than getting less drops than the person you are doing the quest with? Getting more as them. Then you have to continue grinding, getting more and more of these quest items while your quest partner still got nothing. So much fun...

However - in Bozja cluster farm groups we can see how a system will get (ab)used when everyone in the party gets the drop: The party splits up to get credit in as much areas as possible. This will not be a problem in instanced content like PotD, but would become the meta for Fate grinds.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

it was just an example I used because the entire time we've been doing it, at literally every single step where there wasn't always a 100% drop option, we got extremely uneven drops and one would be long finished before the other.

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But wasn't there always a guaranteed option for getting the items you need for each relic step?

Thavnairian Scalepowder: Poetics
Memories of the Dying: Heavensward Fates
Bitter Memories: Level 60 Dungeons
Loathsome Memories: CLL or ARR Alliance Raids
Haunting Memories: HW Alliance Raids
Vexatious Memories: SB Alliance Raids
Timeworn Artifacts: Delubrum Reginae

Were these not always the case? Admitedly, my memory is very poor, so maybe I forgot about some change they made?

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Originally Posted by Tint

Yeah the reversed situation... Do you know what is even more frustrating than getting less drops than the person you are doing the quest with? Getting more as them. Then you have to continue grinding, getting more and more of these quest items while your quest partner still got nothing. So much fun...

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Exactly this. He feels bad because he's getting so many, and he'll still have to do it even more because he has to drag my awful luck ass through it until I'm done. I would also feel bad if I got way more than him. Surprisingly, most people have empathy and still may not like a system even if they're benefiting.

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Originally Posted by Haventale

But wasn't there always a guaranteed option for getting the items you need for each relic step?

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If one option is inherently "better" than the other, why give an option at all? I also explained that although doing Delubrum guarantees a drop, it can take an hour, requires outside preparation (lost actions), and requires 24 players to do. Some duties are harder to get in to at later hours of the day. I also said that I did ~50 alliance raids for the previous step, and I'm tired of it. I enjoy doing Palace of the Dead. But again, the relic options are not what I'm talking about. I'll say it on its own line so it can't be missed.

I'm referring to how things that do not have a guaranteed drop rate do not drop consistently between party members. Whether it's FATEs, Skirmishes/Critical Engagements, PotD, etc. and no matter what it's for (not just relics), one person can get it on every completion and one can get 1 for every 20 completions. It discourages group play because the rewards aren't even. If it drops for anyone, it should drop for everyone in the party that can receive it.

Just have the person with more toss theirs and pretend it works the way you want. Dev time is money and this game is severely underbudgeted.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Just have the person with more toss theirs and pretend it works the way you want. Dev time is money and this game is severely underbudgeted.

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I doubt that mindset gets you anywhere, huh. Just ignore things and give up on all expectations? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I doubt that mindset gets you anywhere, huh. Just ignore things and give up on all expectations? No thanks.

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A major life lesson everyone needs to learn:

Is the juice worth the squeeze?

Is what you're getting worth what you're putting into whatever your doing. When it comes to certain debates, you're not going to change people's minds who have already made them up so constantly bickering back and forth is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

When it comes to certain debates, you're not going to change people's minds who have already made them up so constantly bickering back and forth is pointless.

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I don't think it counts as bickering when one person says something and then someone else replies. I think it's just responding. If they come back and just regurgitate it again expecting me to change my stance, then yeah, it's probably bickering by that point. I think it takes more than "shut up and get over it" to be considered a debate, as well. Based on their previous posts they seem keen on complaining about SE at every turn, so I think it's more their personal problems leaking into this thread more than anything. I'm sure they won't be back.

OP saying they don't want to change the drop rates but also want to lock-in a drop if someone else gets it in the party, which is a change in the drop rates. Drop rates are not party-centric, it's player-centric. Having a +1 should not ever have any bearing on changing the RNG.

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Originally Posted by technole

OP saying they don't want to change the drop rates but also want to lock-in a drop if someone else gets it in the party, which is a change in the drop rates. Drop rates are not party-centric, it's player-centric. Having a +1 should not ever have any bearing on changing the RNG.

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maybe im misunderstanding what you're trying to say, and if i am, im sorry. however, the OP stated he wanted it to be party-centric, that's the entire point of the thread. if it was party-centric, meaning its a chance of a drop PER GROUP, instead of PER PERSON, then it wont change the drop rates.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I doubt that mindset gets you anywhere, huh. Just ignore things and give up on all expectations? No thanks.

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No, not give up on all expectations, the point is set your expectations accordingly.

This will probably not happen. It's a big change to the way loot works for a couple couples that grind relics together. It doesn't get SE more money. It's not a feature they could put in an advertisement. "Check out our new update! Now two people can be unlucky AT THE SAME TIME". And the end result is not very different from doing what I said and having the person with more toss them, you still have to grind. If your partner isn't going to get theirs and ditch you what good does this change bring? Peace of mind?

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Originally Posted by Zomkei

maybe im misunderstanding what you're trying to say, and if i am, im sorry. however, the OP stated he wanted it to be party-centric, that's the entire point of the thread. if it was party-centric, meaning its a chance of a drop PER GROUP, instead of PER PERSON, then it wont change the drop rates.

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Yes. I would like it to be a single drop chance per party, not per person. I think I mentioned that it can obviously be exploited by partying up for multiple drop chances if it's per person.

As a weird update, yesterday I ran the early floors solo because I had time, and got 3 timeworn artifacts for 3 clears. Which is absurd considering my drops were 1/14 before, and then in a different instance I got 3/3. Yeah yeah RNG blah blah, but as far as luck goes in this game I've never had a sudden streak of good luck. He's always had to drag my corpse through FATEs or whatever we were doing because he has enough for both of us and I've still only got a handful.

I haven't read anything about solo runs having different chances, so I'll assume that's just a coincidence. As nice as it is to catch up a bit, we were kind of making a point of doing it together, so it may be sad to find out doing it solo is somehow more efficient.

I feel like in an MMO, quest item drops should be uniform across parties. If we're on the same quest and I trigger a fight in one of those purple rings, if he hits an enemy in it even once he gets progress for it even though he didn't talk to the NPC to trigger it or whatever. I feel like quest progress when playing together should maintain the same rate of completion.

Seems like a back end coding nightmare, not impossible though. Unless they straight up normalized the value for the group. If that is the case if they made it optional I guess then I see no issue.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Seems like a back end coding nightmare, not impossible though. Unless they straight up normalized the value for the group. If that is the case if they made it optional I guess then I see no issue.

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They already have a system like this with both BLU spells and inside of PoTD with the silver chests (if one person opens the chest the entire party gets the enhancement); the majority of the back end coding for such a system has already been done. They'll have some work adapting it but the scope of work is something a couple people could get done within a patch cycle easily.

Personally, I'm in favor of all special currency rewards being party centric. Content is a lot less draining and a lot more fun when you're not left out because RNG hates you. And as we see with BLU spells, there's still plenty of grind to be had even with the whole party getting it.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

They already have a system like this with both BLU spells

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Oh yeah I forgot about that. I was thinking of it yesterday and never mentioned it. They clearly can change the acquisition of certain things based on party comp (or being in a party at all), so it has to be possible for this sort of thing too.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

They already have a system like this with both BLU spells and inside of PoTD with the silver chests (if one person opens the chest the entire party gets the enhancement); the majority of the back end coding for such a system has already been done. They'll have some work adapting it but the scope of work is something a couple people could get done within a patch cycle easily.

Personally, I'm in favor of all special currency rewards being party centric. Content is a lot less draining and a lot more fun when you're not left out because RNG hates you. And as we see with BLU spells, there's still plenty of grind to be had even with the whole party getting it.

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I do wonder if it would that simple I do not do much PoTD, but with BLU didn't it use to work by if one BLU got the spell everyone did? Now it is just a 100% drop rate for synced parties now? It terms of PoTD it is just a normalized drop rate for the entire group right?

Now for quest items etc . . . I wonder if it would be as simple since it is a rotating variable so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If you'd have done Delubrum Reginae instead of PotD, then you'd each have about 5 by now.




It's possible to share out RNG rolls throughout a party.
For example Blue Mage. Learning spells in RNG, but if one BLU in the party learns the spell, everyone done.

The problem is likely distinguishing premade partial parties from the full party.
You might have loaded in with a friend, but what about the other two in the party?

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thats not actually how blue mage spell learning works. you have a 100% chance of learning a spell if you complete the content synced (and of course see the spell and alive when the enemy dies).

if you are doing the content unsynced the learn rate is lowered significantly and one blue mage may learn the spell and the rest of the party is unlucky and does not.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I do wonder if it would that simple I do not do much PoTD, but with BLU didn't it use to work by if one BLU got the spell everyone did? Now it is just a 100% drop rate for synced parties now? It terms of PoTD it is just a normalized drop rate for the entire group right?

Now for quest items etc . . . I wonder if it would be as simple since it is a rotating variable so to speak.

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I think it's always been a 100% rate for primal skills in a synced 8-person BLU party - or at least that was added pretty early - but still a variable % for other spells (but also synced across players in an all-BLU party). So if I had 7 other BLUs and we ran Shiva, we'd definitely all get Glass Dance, but if we ran around the Dravanian Hinterlands fighting poroggos we might get Frog Legs, but if we did get it we would all get it; it's not a chance per person which is then shared with others, it's a chance per kill that everyone gets the result of.

Compare that to the issue raised in this thread and it becomes, if we do Delubrum, we definitely get the artifact (though neither getting into nor completing it are as "guaranteed" as some people in this thread like to think); if we do PotD, we might get one, but if we did get one everyone would get it; it wouldn't be a chance per person, but a chance per 10 floors. Rather than rolling the dice for each person, roll the dice for the floor and have everyone receive the result.

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Originally Posted by TitaniumVulpes

I think it's always been a 100% rate for primal skills in a synced 8-person BLU party - or at least that was added pretty early - but still a variable % for other spells (but also synced across players in an all-BLU party). So if I had 7 other BLUs and we ran Shiva, we'd definitely all get Glass Dance, but if we ran around the Dravanian Hinterlands fighting poroggos we might get Frog Legs, but if we did get it we would all get it; it's not a chance per person which is then shared with others, it's a chance per kill that everyone gets the result of.

Compare that to the issue raised in this thread and it becomes, if we do Delubrum, we definitely get the artifact (though neither getting into nor completing it are as "guaranteed" as some people in this thread like to think); if we do PotD, we might get one, but if we did get one everyone would get it; it wouldn't be a chance per person, but a chance per 10 floors. Rather than rolling the dice for each person, roll the dice for the floor and have everyone receive the result.

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I could see it work for some content like PoTD and things like chests that are tied to the run. Though as suggested by the OP which I am for would be be so simple for SE to make it function in such a way? I am not a 100% certain cause on the base code side it may not be a huge mess just it seems server communication is when things become wonky.

Though I guess it depends on how they handle items and spells. If they function the same way may it be as simple as a toggle. I am just not sure.

Because DR in comparison to PoTD has a 100% drop rate, if the drop rate was 100% in potd, no one would go DR....

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Originally Posted by Zomkei

maybe im misunderstanding what you're trying to say, and if i am, im sorry. however, the OP stated he wanted it to be party-centric, that's the entire point of the thread. if it was party-centric, meaning its a chance of a drop PER GROUP, instead of PER PERSON, then it wont change the drop rates.

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It would change the overall observed drop rate. If SE sets the drop rate at 5% it's never going to be exactly 5% because they don't use streak breakers or anything to guarantee it. But the more attempts there are the closer it will get to 5%. This change would reduce the number of dice rolls resulting in more variance between what SE sets the drop rate at and what the actual drop rate among all players is.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It would change the overall observed drop rate. If SE sets the drop rate at 5% it's never going to be exactly 5% because they don't use streak breakers or anything to guarantee it. But the more attempts there are the closer it will get to 5%. This change would reduce the number of dice rolls resulting in more variance between what SE sets the drop rate at and what the actual drop rate among all players is.

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1. I personally feel like you make enough rolls while grinding for things that the observed drop rate wouldn't change much even if you divided the sample size by 4.
2. I'm not sure why the observed drop rate matters. They never tell you the expected drop rate so they have no reason to ensure your observed drop rate matches it, which is probably why they don't have streak breakers.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It would change the overall observed drop rate. If SE sets the drop rate at 5% it's never going to be exactly 5% because they don't use streak breakers or anything to guarantee it. But the more attempts there are the closer it will get to 5%. This change would reduce the number of dice rolls resulting in more variance between what SE sets the drop rate at and what the actual drop rate among all players is.

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Say SQEX implements OP's idea
If I am in a party with my girlfriend to farm memories, and we farm 40 FATEs, that's 40 "dice rolls."

Say they don't
If I am in a party with my girlfriend to farm memories, and we farm 40 FATEs, that's 40 "dice rolls" for each of us.

There is no change.
Either way each player gets 40 dice rolls.
The law of large numbers will work the same wether I'm in a group or not. If we're apart it's not like we observe 80 rolls because no ones rolls are affected by anyone else's.

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Originally Posted by FluffyFang

I'm not sure why the observed drop rate matters. They never tell you the expected drop rate so they have no reason to ensure your observed drop rate matches it, which is probably why they don't have streak breakers.

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They set the drop rate, so presumably they would want the outcome to be close to what they set.

And they don't care about your drop rate as an individual. I'm talking about the overall drop rate for all players.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

thats not actually how blue mage spell learning works. you have a 100% chance of learning a spell if you complete the content synced (and of course see the spell and alive when the enemy dies).

if you are doing the content unsynced the learn rate is lowered significantly and one blue mage may learn the spell and the rest of the party is unlucky and does not.

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I think the "100% if synched" setup was a later addition.

And I'm fairly sure that it's an "all or nobody" learning rate when doing it unsynched - just a lot more likely to be nobody.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Because DR in comparison to PoTD has a 100% drop rate, if the drop rate was 100% in potd, no one would go DR....

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I'm not sure who you're saying that too, since I certainly never said to change the PotD drop rate to 100%. I'm speaking in the broad sense of item drops for quests that come from duties or activities that can be done as a party where the drop rate is not the same for everyone.

Though as a side note, you do have to ask yourself why people wouldn't do DR if PotD had a 100% drop rate too. People made a point of telling me that I should just do DR as if that's a solution to my original post, but if it's only worth doing because of the drop rate, well...

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Though as a side note, you do have to ask yourself why people wouldn't do DR if PotD had a 100% drop rate too. People made a point of telling me that I should just do DR as if that's a solution to my original post, but if it's only worth doing because of the drop rate, well...

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Because it would be faster. DR takes like an hour, 10 floors of PotD is 10-15 minutes.