SUGGESTION: Turn Bluemage into a regular job - Limited Job>Advanced Job (An Approach)

I know that the developers of Final Fantasy XIV have the opinion that the blue mage job can't be implemented into the regular job system "roaster" without being OP.

Thats why they excluded him into a special role as a so called "limited job".
I myself dislike the idea that balance wise not all FF jobs can be included into the regular job system. Since Final Fantasy XI Online and other Offline titles managed it also to include the BLU job into the normal job system - this is what i think is a matter of balancing.

I know that Yoshi P. and his team likes the idea of having the BLU as classic as in the very old FF titles and not as in Final Fantasy XI Online.

I myself believe on the other hand, that the Bluemage should be a more melee orientated hybrid caster since lot of his bestiary bluemagic spells rely on being in close target range. Wether it is a fire breath and many other frontal cone AoE spells.
Also a melee mage is something that we really do not have - besides red mage who only engages in melee combat for burst damage.

My appraoch and concept on the other hand is kind of the versa form of a red mage. A mage that engages in melee combat to built up bestiary mana points and uses his blue magic for burst damage. And i also think that it fits the concept quiet well, since bluemagic is a sort of magic that is obtained by engaging enemy monsters.
In the current state bluemages more or less spam their spells without any pause.


LIMITED SPELL SET BY SPELL TYPE CATEGORIES

First of all what would help in my opinion to guarantee that every BLU has a good mixture of a spellreportoir is that we split the blue magic spells into different types and put a limit on the amount of spells of every type.

So that for example you have a maximum of 3 spells per spell type which you can equip from the spell library of the blue mage spellbook to a maximum amount of 12 blue magic spells. How much spells it should be in the end - thats a matter of balancing, this picture should be just an example:

https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/13ade2c8ab.jpg
1. Single direct damage spells (max. 3/3)
2. AoE spells (frontal one AoE, PBAoE etc.) (max. 3/3)
3. Weakening Spells (DoT (Poison etc.), Debuffs) (max. 3/3)
4. Support Spells (Buffs, Self-Heal) (max. 3/3)


BLUE MAGE GAUGE / BESTIARY MANA RESSOURCE


The nature of blue mages is to engage enemies / monsters in combat in order to learn monster abillities. In many games such as in Final Fantasy X the playable character Kimhari constantly has to draw (and store) monster abillities from the enemies in order to perform monster abillities afterwards.

My idea is to implement an extra mana ressource for the BLU which fills up if he engages in (melee) combat with the enemies. As i said before its kind of the opposite version of the red mage, which fills up his ressource with magic and later on engages in melee combat for burst damage.


The magic bar could for example be split into four different segments. To cast a BLU spell at least one segment of BLU MP is needed to cast a bluemagic spell.
https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/...017e_album.png

So that BLU spells also differentiate in the amount MP segments needed to cast the specific spell as well as in damage and casting time (matter of balancing). So there are different "tiers" of blue magic spells. Once you can use more often and others that only can be casted irregularly:
https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/2ff7ce2f02.jpg

This should prevent the BLU job to cast healing spells or other high damage top tier spells (1000 needles etc.) on a regular basis and to prevent them from spamming these special spells.


FILLING THE GAUGE WITH (MELEE) ROTATIONS + ABILLITIES

The magic ressource of the BLU is filled up by executing melee combo attacks as in the example shown here. It shows a combo of 3 melee attacks after an other, the first one gains no BLU magic, the second one gains one magic point, the third attack in the combo grants 2 blue magic points at once. So that after each combo you can fill up a total of 3 mana points - not the maximum of 4 which is needed to cast "top tier Blue magic"
https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/...b155_album.png

Alternatively, if the plan of SE is to stick with the pure magic role, it should be also possible to implement basic blue magic combos:
https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/...73d0_album.png


But personally in my opinion - and as i already said before - the melee / magic hybrid role such as in Final Fantasy XI would be much more optimal for the BLU since most of his magic relies on being in close combat range to the targets. As well as it would be the first real mage that primarly engages in melee range - it would be more different to the casters which we have now in the game.


Since a regular combo would only grant 3 BLU Magic segments it is not optimal to cast a spell which costs about 4 BLU MP segments. If he'd wish to cast a top tier spell which costs 4 magic points he need to do 5 melee attacks in a total - which should be inefficent in order to limit the use of a top tier spell.

In my approach an extra abillity - MP drain - which is locked on a re-use timer grants the BLU to cast a top tier spell every 30 seconds without having a gap in the skill rotation. So that in the end low and mid tier blue magic spells can be casted more frequently. And about every 30 seconds the BLU could draw additional MP from the target in order to excecute a top tier BLU spell.

https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/...19de_album.png



ROTATIONS - AN EXAMPLE
In this example, BLU gains 3 MP segments for a full melee combo. At each end of a combo he can use a BLU spell for 3 segments.
So that in the end a rotation could look like that:

1.For a starter a DoT or buff spell + a low tier direct damage spell is used.. (Costs: 1 + 2 MP points)
https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/...c1e0_album.png
2. ... followed by an other combo with a mid tier BLU spell.. (Costs: 3 MP points)
https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/...5138_album.png
3. .. in the end an other triple melee combo + the MP drain abillity is used (re-use of 30 seconds) in order to gather 4 MP for a flawless high level tier BLU spell. (Costs: 4 MP points)
https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/...5ee2_album.png


To summarize my approach:
- Creation of 4 different magic type categories for the BlU (single damage, AoE damage, weakening spells (DoT / Debuffs), Support Spells)
- There is a limit for the amount of spells per spelltype (3/3/3/3) in order to grant a good mixture of spells
- The Blue gets an own magic ressource
- The mana ressource needs to be filled up while engaging in (melee) combat in order to prevent BLU from spamming blue magic spells
- Differentiation into low, mid and high tier BLU spells by cost and casting time
- skill rotations limit how often top tier blue magic spells can be used

https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/13ade2c8ab.jpg
https://chrysaliswiki.wdfiles.com/lo...emage_ff11.jpghttps://img.pngio.com/blue-mage-fina...ng-213_314.png
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...0b464a4873.png

Youtube Video of the melee blue mage in Final Fantasy XI Online


WHY ADVANCED JOB INSTEAD OF "LIMITED" JOB?

If BLU becomes an other job for the job system he would'nt be "limited" anymore to only play specific content.
I took the term "advanced" since we know that term already from Final Fantasy XI Online - which described jobs that were unlocked if you had a standard job class at a minimum of lv 30.

Additionally the BLU has not a fixed skill set and has a little bit more freedom in setting your skills, he requires much more effort in order to receive his skills. A concept which i could imagine also for other job classes like the beastmaster (who has to tame different monsters before to use them as a pet) or the puppetmaster job as well (different setups for his automatons).


Thank you in advance for your opinions (and thumbs ups as well^^)

The Limiting per type of spell I know is an example, but it just won't fit into the 'job fantasy' and may contradict with that since as Blue Mages are able to freely pick and choose spells in FFXI with the limit being 80 Blue Points when you have mastered the Job. However... we can use the rarity system to such an advantage, we can do it how the developers did it with triple triad. The higher the rarity the more of the cost while lower rarity will have a lower cost. I think implementing the point system from FFXI would be far better as it still allow Blue Mages to freely pick and choose. Also I think we can also work it around with Aetherial Mimicry where if you're a certain role, it'll only buff those spells making them more of a priority than ever. Plus they need to add more new spells for tanking and healing making it extremely harder for people to try and max DPS while tanking and healing, more useful tanking and/or healing spells means they have to sacrifice a spot just for that spell that is mandatory for a role.

If I may be so bold to suggest, that instead of not only the Gauge prevents the spell but also allow it to cast powerful strong moves only at the highest level and let it have at least 5 sections divided. At least then Level 5 Death can be used with the concept. Like in FF8 where it is Level X death and the X is between 4-1 with 1 being the strongest, however in FFXIV I think it would be better if we implement it where at 1 resource point it is grayed out and cannot be used, at 2 resource point it can be Level 5 Death then moving to 3 resources it becomes Level 4 Death, 4 resources is Level 3 Death and 5 Resources is Level 2 Death. I didn't include Level 1 Death as it'll be too overpowered since anything can be a multiple of 1. So like certain moves are grayed out where it needs the resources. If its moves like Flat Damage like Missile/Launcher then the resource point would be around 4 or 5 (Most Likely 5). Plus it'll still have the job fantasy of it being OP in a sense that a spell will take 4/5 sections spells are powerful with a long CD.

As for your combo idea, I like it but if we're going to have 4 sections make it gain only 2 per combo rather than 3 or if 5 sections then 3 per combo. I feel gaining half of the bar is better since with Blue Mage OGCD can be weaved in easily at the time of this posting.

The Draw Bestiary MP CD could be a bit longer like around 110 seconds like Red Mage's Manafication as it is to prevent the spamming of powerful spells easily. As for additional abilities, maybe we can have a Condensed Libra but as a job ability where it randomly buffs only you for 15 seconds for a specific element (being only 1 element rather than a group of it).

This is a great concept you have made for Blue Mage to becoming a normal, and I believe your thread along with many other Blue Mage thread should be seen by the development team. You have also manage to visualize the job gauge I had imagine, so for that I believe you have done a great job posting a thread describing a concept of a Blue Mage normal job.

I support this! SE should really take some idea from here, i like the bar system and how stronger tier spells uses more bars cause it also falls in line with how they release even stronger spells with each Blue Mage updates(the trial and raid OGCDs)
I've also thought about what if Blue Mage is "reverse Red Mage" in this game, making them have a combo based rotation would make them unique among all the casters we have so far.
About the "skill limit per type" i thought they could've just streamlined the whole Blue Mage skills instead of giving them options(which make them have to rehaul the whole system), but by limiting the Blue Mage skills like this it could make them more concise without having to rework the whole system, but of course they would have to rebalance a lot of the skills first because of how many "gimmick skills" in the roster right now.

I adore the graphics and effort put in. Obviously in support of an advanced job concept, and I'm glad you used that term. I feel it works very well to describe blue and be in line with FF terms, also feels a lot better than being limited lol.
I hope to post a thread like this one day soon but I doubt it'll have all the cool graphics!


Pretty much was ready to press like before I read it lol. The slot system after reading it is interesting, so I still pressed it.

It is definitely more work to add a whole new section to blue mage but I think it is less work than adding a whole new job as they already made many assets, so I think asking for advanced isn't excessively unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Obviously in support of an advanced job concept, and I'm glad you used that term. I feel it works very well to describe blue and be in line with FF terms, also feels a lot better than being limited lol.

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Indeed and i like the positive description also much more - since we know it already from Final Fantasy XI Online.

And because the BLU would be a more complex job, since you have to learn and pick (in a limited setup because of duty finder) specific spells for your personal task bar.

A concept which i could imagine for upcoming jobs like beastmaster - where you have to tame monsters before you can make them a pet - or puppetmasters, too.

It's not a bad write up honestly.

They have to do something other than have carbon copies of the same 220 potency aoe spell or 200-220 single target spell

To add to this idea. I would propose a 5th category for 50-60. Stances.

This is mainly a way to add certain skills and a button that changes based on of the "stance" (in this case Condensed Libra). This button will have 3 types with 3 effects each (Astral, Umbral and Phsycial, with regular Attack, Attack with Mitigation and Assize like attacs)

Mimicry will of course dictate the stance (Tank gets a Mitigation CD, DPS gets an attack, Healer gets a Heal)

From there it'll be reworking 6 spells (2 phys attacks and 4 Primal spells) to fit this new paradigm. (in the event that not all 9 are learned the button would stay blank untila combo that has a learned spell is active)

I don't post that much, but I just wanted to let you know that I thought your post made much more sense than what SE has going on right now. That being said, because it makes a lot of sense, I doubt it will be incorporated. That should not discourage your great ideas, for one day they may get their act together and listen to the community a bit more. I know that's a dual-edged sword, but I do agree with a lot of posters that the "Limited Job" system is a bad direction they are going. I understand where they are coming from, and I thank them for adding BLU... I just dislike how they did it. Anyway, thanks for your write up. You can tell you put a lot of effort in the post and the thought process. Keep up the great work!

Wow, you really put a lot of time and effort into it. And while I do enjoy the stuff I can do with blu right now, I wouldn't mind seeing this at all implemented into the game to join the other classes.

I love your ideas. I don’t know, I may be pushing the button a bit to fast but seeing as they totally surprised us and will push blue mage to level 70 in patch 5.4 makes me think we may be in store for it being a normal job sooner than later. Next expansion will be level cap of 90 and I’m sure the new job/jobs will start at level 70. We got Graha’Tia that is the first all rounder trust. Hmmm maybe it’s to soon to speculate but it could mean we could see the first actual all rounder job being blue mage in the new expansion. During the fanfest they always have one major thing to shock us. I hope it’s blue mage being removed from the limited job system and will be the first all rounder advanced job in 6.0. Granted there will need to be allot of balancing but I believe it can be done. I hope it will be done. The devs read these forums. Blue mage topic has been very hot lately so hopefully they see that people actually want this to happen. I don’t want the same ole same masked carnival stuff just at increased levels. We need blue mage as a normal job. It needs to happen.

I like your idea. This seems like a really well thought idea with a lot of considerations. SE should be able to make blue to become a normal job if they really want it to. Maybe the limited job concept is a way to introduce job that is not correctly balanced and need a lot more adjustments for it to be able to fit in the current party comps. But seeing how it is progressing. There is a chance that blue mage can develop into normal job in the next expansion. Maybe Graha’Tia will be the blue mage NPC since he's recently introduced in Shadowbringers as an all rounder.

Blue Mage is fine as it is.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Granted there will need to be allot of balancing but I believe it can be done.

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I also think its all a matter of balancing. Blue mage could ever be included in the regular job system if it was in offline FFs or in the online title Final Fantasy XI - it worked.

Also i think some skills could use some tweeks, for example the "wasp sting attack" which incapacitates the caster, same for self-destruct. Though it is pretty realistic how it is. maybe it would be okay as a penalty to have a long cast time and to inflict a high amount on the BLU himself.

Also giving some of the AoE spells some extra effects, such as Ramuhs shock attack or the earth buster. since they do exactly the same.
I mean shock strike from Ramuh inflicted paralyze as an extra effect in Final Fantasy XI. Earth buster could have immobilize as an extra effect for an example, too.

Just one up to two examples:
https://s12.directupload.net/images/201013/xlxxzmqm.png
https://s12.directupload.net/images/201013/tb8wo9z3.png

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Originally Posted by SamsonBlacke

Blue Mage is fine as it is.

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It really isn't. at its current state it's a unpolished potential that only leads to waste of resources. Probably better to erase it altogether at this point and use the resource somewhere else. It has no replayability at all, plus devs need to update it every now and then instead of every expansion like other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Mariel_Crystallie

It really isn't. at its current state it's a unpolished potential that only leads to waste of resources. Probably better to erase it altogether at this point and use the resource somewhere else. It has no replayability at all, plus devs need to update it every now and then instead of every expansion like other jobs.

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I wonder why people legitimate that it is okay for a regular FF job that it is just a "fun gimmick" site note in FFXIV.

I mean in -every- offline FF where Blue mage or blue magic appears it was part of the job system. So it can be balanced.

Even in Final Fantasy XI Online - it was just a regular normal job class.


#FREE-BLU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQY5UT2iWI



;)

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I wonder why people legitimate that it is okay for a regular FF job that it is just a "fun gimmick" site note in FFXIV.

I mean in -every- offline FF where Blue mage or blue magic appears it was part of the job system. So it can be balanced.

Even in Final Fantasy XI Online - it was just a regular normal job class.


#FREE-BLU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQY5UT2iWI



;)

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FFXI is a very different game from FFXIV. FFXIV is much more of a theme park game with streamlined job design. They may both be MMOs with a final fantasy name but they are very very different.

Blue mage could work, other jobs have been changed to fit into FFXIV's job design mold, but in this game it's not going to both keep the collectable aspect of its spells AND be a full fledged job you can run duty finder with.

I take it to mean this particular write up is focused more as a DPS, I would be very interested in seeing your take on a Tank build. Either way, great job, I hope the dev team takes this into consideration eventually.

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...MifoAghj2069GQ

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Originally Posted by Mariel_Crystallie

It really isn't. at its current state it's a unpolished potential that only leads to waste of resources. Probably better to erase it altogether at this point and use the resource somewhere else. It has no replayability at all, plus devs need to update it every now and then instead of every expansion like other jobs.

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You need to think of it less as a job and more as side content like Hildibrand quests - it’s a fun little diversion in that sense but I do understand it’s disappointing for some.

All well thought out suggestions, and I salute you for them.

They have two specific problems.

1: That's not blue mage. That isn't 'fixing' blue mage as some would say, that's 'completely replacing it and giving the new thing the same name.' What you have described is an entirely new job, and not one SE wants, which brings us to point 2.

2: SE doesn't *want* blue mage to be a normal job. They want it to be a limited job, and no matter how wonderful, intricate, well thought out and intelligent the ideas for making it a normal job-which yours are, by the way-the devs don't want it to be a normal job. They want it to be side content, to be something for players to do outside of normal content, something to say 'I'm caught up on MSQ, now what do I do, I can do this while I wait for more content', and that, in essence is what BLU's purpose is in 14, just like relics. Something to keep us busy that is not directly tied to the main story, to give them time to work on it. No matter how brilliant the idea to change it to a normal job may be, doing so would defeat the primary purpose of the job and that is, side content to keep us busy.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I wonder why people legitimate that it is okay for a regular FF job that it is just a "fun gimmick" site note in FFXIV.

I mean in -every- offline FF where Blue mage or blue magic appears it was part of the job system. So it can be balanced.

Even in Final Fantasy XI Online - it was just a regular normal job class.


#FREE-BLU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQY5UT2iWI



;)

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Offline entries BLU was never balanced. They simply staggered you getting the one shot kill abilities until the end of the game. But there was always an OP ability at every stage of the game. Just thinking FF7 enemy skills, if you were able to grab the one from the snake early you could kill everything in the first half of the game very quickly. But it doesn’t matter in a single player game.

I’m not sure how they worked it in 11 but I have no doubt they could thematically make a BLU a real job in the same way they have red and white.

I don’t think they were looking to add a proper job though. They wanted to add a timesink additional content. If there was no job associated with it or it didn’t use a job that some people wanted, I don’t think there’d be so much complaints because as far as side content go it’s one of the better quests in the game and the solo bosses are fun.

I don’t think we got this instead of a traditional job, or because they couldn’t make BLU a traditional job. I think it’s a case of wanting to make appealing side content and if it wasn’t a blue mage then we just wouldn’t have BLU at all.

This isn't aimed at OP, but I really don't get the mentality of "I dislike Blue Mage, so Square Enix should erase it from the game." I mean, really, beyond the fact that Square would have to throw out a fair deal of gear, writing, content, and other things they've already made at this point, is it hard to believe there are some people who do like the content, even if it is flawed? Maybe we can't main it or do every bit of content with it, and that sucks, but maybe being able to bulldoze through what content is available to it with unorthodox abilities is more fun than just getting bored spamming the same Level X0 rotation over and over in the endgame.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

This isn't aimed at OP, but I really don't get the mentality of "I dislike Blue Mage, so Square Enix should erase it from the game." I mean, really, beyond the fact that Square would have to throw out a fair deal of gear, writing, content, and other things they've already made at this point, is it hard to believe there are some people who do like the content, even if it is flawed? Maybe we can't main it or do every bit of content with it, and that sucks, but maybe being able to bulldoze through what content is available to it with unorthodox abilities is more fun than just getting bored spamming the same Level X0 rotation over and over in the endgame.

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I think with this approach, even though you're not aiming at OP, but OP is trying to make an option where SE don't have to throw out everything they've made for BLU out of the window, it's an addition to the already existing BLU system so even more people can take interest in them because they're not limited to obscure contents. It's not about not understanding why people like this content, it's about making it better.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

You need to think of it less as a job and more as side content like Hildibrand quests - it’s a fun little diversion in that sense but I do understand it’s disappointing for some.

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The problem is you need an extra effort to do this content properly. yes it's fun but again no replayabilty at all. meanwhile hildi leaving us a trial behind that we can use for some DR trials. but as BLU? with that much effort collecting skill we STILL need a proper team to finish the end content challenge (savages for morbol mount) and it will be getting more ridiculous harder at this point which is not casual friendly anymore ( Celestriad & Hello World will be more chaotic than gavel A8S ) .

then to people that already clear this will become meh to do it again. why put such a good potential job to become side contentlike this?

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Originally Posted by Verendal

All well thought out suggestions, and I salute you for them.

They have two specific problems.

1: That's not blue mage. That isn't 'fixing' blue mage as some would say, that's 'completely replacing it and giving the new thing the same name.' What you have described is an entirely new job, and not one SE wants, which brings us to point 2.

2: SE doesn't *want* blue mage to be a normal job. They want it to be a limited job, and no matter how wonderful, intricate, well thought out and intelligent the ideas for making it a normal job-which yours are, by the way-the devs don't want it to be a normal job. They want it to be side content, to be something for players to do outside of normal content, something to say 'I'm caught up on MSQ, now what do I do, I can do this while I wait for more content', and that, in essence is what BLU's purpose is in 14, just like relics. Something to keep us busy that is not directly tied to the main story, to give them time to work on it. No matter how brilliant the idea to change it to a normal job may be, doing so would defeat the primary purpose of the job and that is, side content to keep us busy.

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i would agree with you were it actually playable. at this point i could care less what they name it, limited, normal, advanced, special, exclusive, whatever. heck, it could be double beef cheese bacon egg lettuce tomato job for all i care. But because of its nature as a "side content", once you're missing out it's not easy to find people to do it with you and you can't do it solo. at least with relics i can do it solo if i really wanted to. I've been in a solo instance eureka just trying to finish my relic. but to completely finish BLU you need 8 people and once people are done with it god forbids you find a party to do it. call me a quitter for all i care cause i've tried, i had to actually beg my already getting morbol BLU friends to accompany me do BLU stuffs.

For the moment , Blue is still just a side content that needs more effort to do than the other side contents. So yeah , blue right now doesn't seem appealing to most people.

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Originally Posted by Alysella

For the moment , Blue is still just a side content that needs more effort to do than the other side contents. So yeah , blue right now doesn't seem appealing to most people.

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that's what i think as well. Restricted side content with little to no reward (and when there IS one the journey is just arduous) and (currently) no continuation capability like blue mage is a real turn off. at least they're trying to improve the situation with raising the level cap mid expansion but if it keeps on going like this i don't think it'll be a good content, much less for a side one.

For rotations: I think it would be best to give each (or at least most) spell a really long cooldown. Then, each time you cast a spell it reduces active cooldowns by enough so that after 6 or so casts your first spell is ready again. This way some elements of freedom with BLU are preserved: set the spells you want, use them in the order you want. The coding already exists as well, since SCH used to reduce Aetherflow cooldown by using Aetherflow actions.

Existing spell rankings should be made note of and incorporated into spell builds, too. This way you could have a BLU with no support spells to mimic the contribution of a BLM, or a BLU with max allowable support spells to mimic the contribution of a RDM. The rankings would be the classifier as to what you would be capable of - a super strong self buff or potency attack would take the same ranked slot as a super strong support move like White Wind.

I don't think the gauge system you created would work well in practice. White Wind would be an emergency spell but the odds of having charges available would be rare as they would always be going toward DPS.

Its possible for them to make gauge with timers too like Whm gauge. The op spell will use from 1 up to 3 stacks of blue mage gauge. So they cant just spam it and can adjust to it accordingly

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

I don't think the gauge system you created would work well in practice. White Wind would be an emergency spell but the odds of having charges available would be rare as they would always be going toward DPS.

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I think it'll work just fine, if we consider BLU as a healer in this case, in high end content people do prog and end up with a set rotation for each fight, and do mitigation and healings accordingly, people will just have to do bar management according to the fight. In non high end content, it doesn't really matter.

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Originally Posted by JiSH

I think it'll work just fine, if we consider BLU as a healer in this case, in high end content people do prog and end up with a set rotation for each fight, and do mitigation and healings accordingly, people will just have to do bar management according to the fight. In non high end content, it doesn't really matter.

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It can be said to be almost similar to when DPSes holding their OGCDs to burst specific adds/mechanic that provided in high-end content. it's not always optimal and often times you'll be inclined to use your GCD in your burst window/ASAP. But harder contents don't compromise, if you have to hold, you hold it. i think it's the same with the blue mage's system introduced in this thread. if some phase require healing, even if it have to us your gauge, you do it.

It is what it is. Every roles have their own things to do. It's about balancing it right for blue mage to be able to fulfill the "jack of all trades" while not being too overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Alysella

It is what it is. Every roles have their own things to do. It's about balancing it right for blue mage to be able to fulfill the "jack of all trades" while not being too overpowered.

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if it's can be done with RDM and their vercure/verraise dps/healer hybrid, it can be done to BLU as well. and RDM is not OP right? in fact it is anything but. Solo contents, maybe. but that's to be expected for hybrid classes. we can also make bluemage strong in solo content but wont be as useful in raid because the nature of "job gauge being used in both dpsing and healing". so you can't just spam healing, because your dps will be low.

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Originally Posted by Volsungr

if it's can be done with RDM and their vercure/verraise dps/healer hybrid, it can be done to BLU as well. and RDM is not OP right? in fact it is anything but. Solo contents, maybe. but that's to be expected for hybrid classes. we can also make bluemage strong in solo content but wont be as useful in raid because the nature of "job gauge being used in both dpsing and healing". so you can't just spam healing, because your dps will be low.

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Hmm. You are right. They done it with RDM so it's doable with BLU. But i don't think they are going to make something similar even if they want to do it. BLU needs its own uniqueness and playstyle to fit into the job description while maintaining their role in normal party.

@OP


Yes!.


Blue Mage is wasted as a Limited Job, why did they bother with it from the beginning!?.


In any case I feel the "limited" has matured enough to become a "regular" job now, it would definitely attract more players to take on the Blue!.

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Originally Posted by Alysella

Hmm. You are right. They done it with RDM so it's doable with BLU. But i don't think they are going to make something similar even if they want to do it. BLU needs its own uniqueness and playstyle to fit into the job description while maintaining their role in normal party.

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ah yes definitely didnt mean they have to do the same. just pointing out that it's perfectly fine to have jack of all trades and people would still play it. proper rdm will still use their vercure and/or verraise should the need arise, so bluemage with their many skills can have the same functionality where players get to choose what to use depends on what situation. the question is how much hybrid is too much? bluemage literally can do a little bit of everything, after all.

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Originally Posted by Volsungr

ah yes definitely didnt mean they have to do the same. just pointing out that it's perfectly fine to have jack of all trades and people would still play it. proper rdm will still use their vercure and/or verraise should the need arise, so bluemage with their many skills can have the same functionality where players get to choose what to use depends on what situation. the question is how much hybrid is too much? bluemage literally can do a little bit of everything, after all.

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How much is too much? Technically the real answer would be "when it replaces actual tanks/healers, and locks them out of party finders".
But the easiest way to handle it, would be to balance BLU based on its DPS role. After that, any tanking/healing options are intentionally undertuned (not equally balanced with current tanks/healers) This way if you're doing lesser content, the BLU can fill in the role of healer/tank for premades. It could even be possible in easier EX trials, if people are good enough/geared enough to make up the difference. But ideally you want an actual healer/tank job to fill that role, so this is only for desperation, rather than efficiency. (this of course requires a lot of changes to BLU tanking/healing, even DPS honestly)

By doing this, 4man BLU dungeons still function the same way they do now. You have to go in as a premade. But this also allows for normal gameplay. (Im still partial to having BLUs get most of their EXP outside of dungeons, and mostly running dungeons for spells/gear, rather than for good exp. its just nice flavor to this job, plus its faster leveling can make up for the fact it has to hunt down spells, which is where most of the grind actually is.)

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

How much is too much? Technically the real answer would be "when it replaces actual tanks/healers, and locks them out of party finders".
But the easiest way to handle it, would be to balance BLU based on its DPS role. After that, any tanking/healing options are intentionally undertuned (not equally balanced with current tanks/healers) This way if you're doing lesser content, the BLU can fill in the role of healer/tank for premades. It could even be possible in easier EX trials, if people are good enough/geared enough to make up the difference. But ideally you want an actual healer/tank job to fill that role, so this is only for desperation, rather than efficiency. (this of course requires a lot of changes to BLU tanking/healing, even DPS honestly)

By doing this, 4man BLU dungeons still function the same way they do now. You have to go in as a premade. But this also allows for normal gameplay. (Im still partial to having BLUs get most of their EXP outside of dungeons, and mostly running dungeons for spells/gear, rather than for good exp. its just nice flavor to this job, plus its faster leveling can make up for the fact it has to hunt down spells, which is where most of the grind actually is.)

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To be fair, and i agree with you, but using AM and say mighty guard, is way inferior to a tank using tank stance(75% attack power reduction for 20% defense and increased enmity), as well as am and pom cure/exuviation/gobskin, is nothing compared to a dedicated healer. WW could still be kept and put on a cd timer like angel whisper, and that would immediate shut down BLU chances at overshadowing even RDM at this point(also think WW is a trap spell personally, but eh it has its uses, its just fundamentally a bad spell that cost as much as a raise imo and its best use is when its blatantly overhealing the party). A restrictive raise, and bomb heal, but only before massive raid damage, or after moderate raid damage, isnt really going to step on any roles toes, it just may be slightly more supporty than rdm though, if AM simply just became a stance that gave BLU all 3 abilities, instead of one role one, to replace missing traits other casters, healers otherwise get for those level gaps.

EDIT: So after some thinking, i could see them streamlining useful abilities, as a dedicated dps without too much fuss honestly. They could just have BLU keep its utility skills like gobskin/exuviation, and keep AM as well as giving it all 3 traits as either a stance you turn on/off(boring) or
Give AM the Enochian treatment, maybe have the bigger spells activate upon it being activated, have an easier way of maintaining it in combat, sort of like RDM, but have the combos less randomized/proc based like BLM(ezception being thunder procs) Set the job guage around maintaining AM, but less severe than BLM(if you even call it severe now a days) as the combo spells will be pretty straight forward. Use gauge like RDM for burst spells like shock srtike, etc.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

if AM simply just became a stance that gave BLU all 3 abilities, instead of one role one, to replace missing traits other casters, healers otherwise get for those level gaps.

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I can mostly agree with what you're saying, but I feel the need to elaborate on how I imagine it could have been done. (I know, everyone, including me, thinks they have the solution...)
(The following is based on a blank slate design)
IMO, the spells should come with... (for lack of a better word) "role stats". Not the usual stats, but ones that are only seen in the ability select menu, and they ONLY effect blue mage spell cast time/effectiveness, and not primary stats. They pump eachother up, based on being of "the same type", or Hinder ones of "opposing types".

Also, have a BUNCH of neutral weaker spells, which dont fall into a category, so they cant hinder, or buff the spells you pick. (essentially filler moves, or ones that are decent for tanking/healing, since this is where most of their DPS come from, w/o hindering thier tanking/healing)
(IMO Cast time is the most effective way to do this. Make the cast times to exceed the GCD by default, except neutral spells, so that you KNOW its a DPS loss to use the wrong spell type, but if the emergency is big enough, it may be worth it. Only by stacking spells that lower the GCD, can you reach the basic GCD cast times, or even lower, to help weave in oGCDs)

Obviously theres so many spells already made, that this system would be a lot of work, to rebalance everything, but its a starting point imo.
The idea is mostly based on how BLM, SMN, and RDM are balanced to eachother. (BRD thrown in for example)
Selfish DPS spells stacked together increase DPS (BLM build). Supportive DPS buffs decrease self DPS (BRD build). Minor Healing option lightly hurts DPS (ex:SMN with rez). Large healing utility hurts DPS a lot (RDM build).
Going from DPS to tank, in case both tanks go down, or going full healer, in case healers go down, is good enough, even with penalties. But you need to decide before the fight, if you want to be a pseudo tank, who can only hold the boss for 30seconds if the tank goes down, or if you want to put all of your abilities into tanking abilities, to try and off tank/tank swap as a full time replacement tank, because tanks arent showing up in party finder, or your raid groups tank had to drop out for the night. This would be more than acceptable, because both possibilities are there.
I do understand why you said they should have more abilities attached to the tank stance, but i disagree, if your threat is relatively close to the other DPS, and you pop tank stance, you should be main threat in like 1-2 GCDs (if they made the stance reasonable), and be able to take auto attacks fine. Tank busters are where you're going to have an issue, but a "temp tank" isnt meant to fully main tank for long periods, just for short bursts, until the situation is under control. (which in most cases, a tank buster shouldnt be coming out after a tank just died, as the tank probably died to a tank buster in the 1st place.)

EDIT: I also feel there should be 3 DPS styles, but thats going too far in having SE trying to balance one job. (Melee, Cast Range, instant cast range, each with their DPS penalties, depending on ease of use)

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

How much is too much? Technically the real answer would be "when it replaces actual tanks/healers, and locks them out of party finders".
But the easiest way to handle it, would be to balance BLU based on its DPS role. After that, any tanking/healing options are intentionally undertuned (not equally balanced with current tanks/healers) This way if you're doing lesser content, the BLU can fill in the role of healer/tank for premades. It could even be possible in easier EX trials, if people are good enough/geared enough to make up the difference. But ideally you want an actual healer/tank job to fill that role, so this is only for desperation, rather than efficiency. (this of course requires a lot of changes to BLU tanking/healing, even DPS honestly)

By doing this, 4man BLU dungeons still function the same way they do now. You have to go in as a premade. But this also allows for normal gameplay. (Im still partial to having BLUs get most of their EXP outside of dungeons, and mostly running dungeons for spells/gear, rather than for good exp. its just nice flavor to this job, plus its faster leveling can make up for the fact it has to hunt down spells, which is where most of the grind actually is.)

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Stereotypically most of blue mage is damage and or other means of incapacitating the foe, in the history of blue mage spells most did something offensive "stereotypically" - so just having a few weird non-damage related spells (support), and a number of quirky damage skills, I believe would be enough (damage, damage / support, being a role that blue mage natively slots into). Of course they have some weird spells, but in a technical sense many other jobs often get weird skills too just not as early and sometimes as many, but like gil toss on Samurai, or reflect on white mage, or the break spells that were hyper effective sometimes, or you say white mage is a healer but they do later get powerful damage spells or can wreck the dead in some cases, it's not like blue mage is the only thing ever get weird or extremely effective stuff, also on a related note when people say blue mage needs a huge book or if not then it's not blue that I get a little cross eyed because in the situation blue mage had a huge list so did pretty much every other job (and the situation it had a small list, then again so did most other jobs, but there are games where blue list is tiny but other magic lists are huge), big list or weird spells not exclusive to blue (a huge list of useful spells sounds cool though, specially on the limited side, but a huge list of mostly useless spells sounds mostly useless lol), blue mage did tend to be a bit a bit consistent with weird with pacing though (getting a weird spell sooner than other jobs but then also have moments where they were utterly useless, lol), but occasionally true for certain summons by effect or usefulness by the end of the game or specific other jobs (just on average blue seemed to be like "oh yeah and here is a spell that is going to make the next hour really easy, and then it's going to be totally useless for the hour after that and then it'll be useful again for a while, but then not XD). In a general sense I think offensive support is a good slot as it covers many of their quirks but also covers the main duty that tended to have theme'd into their job..

Although.. I still think that blue mage would have made a great candidate for tank, assuming it was built that was from the ground up, the current blue tank that we have in game is not what I mean lol (as the hyper forced trinity, overly balanced, undertuned, tank blue mage is, I wouldn't call as nearly as exciting as playing an actual tank job; although, healer blue is a bit more exciting since you get a lot more damage spells lol, unlike our actual healer jobs currently XD).

But in terms of 'too much?' and premades vs DF I don't think you have to undertune blue- especially if you made limited (which I think is important, to not remove the limited side) and normal a flip of the job stone, then you might have a few skills change a bit depending on which side you're using, in this way you could make aetherial mimicry a different spell based on limited or normal and just from that the rest of the issues are gone (a concept that might sound strange until you consider every combat job in this game besides blue mage does this when you enter PvP, this is something SE has done already in a sense). Limited blues could tank but you'd not have issues with it joining DF and messing things up. Normal blue couldn't tank because it would either not have access to that skill or the skill would behave a bit differently. I personally imagine having a set kit for DF blue being the most easiest form of balance and easily maintain a set of blue skills that feel the most blue like, while also keeping tight gameplay, but I do find reading the ideas of 'kit your own blue' that works in DF interesting to read. Like for example bad breath would be extremely easy to translate into DF, being basically Holy from white mage. I also think you could gain some value in the concept of blue mage having this sort of offensive support vibe with debuffs, but in situations where the debuffs fail (like pretty much all boss content) the debuffs would turn into a generic blue debuff that other spells could interact with (so you could say cast bad breath on a boss, gain 8 stacks of blue debuff since most were ignored and then use that stack to deal big damage or other actives like perhaps white wind needs to consume X debuffs and use your job gauge). That way when blue mage fails their offensive support aspect their concession is they'll just deal more damage instead (because mechanics that interact with debuffs would take the generic blue debuff and do more with it, like a fester like spell might deal 55 potency per debuff but 75 per generic blue debuff).

Depending on what you do even some of the crazier skills could be fine too, like Doom basically already doesn't work on most bosses and so you could just finish that theme- when in DF content, and either keep it extra weird by saying like Hallowed Ground like cooldown timer but will straight up kill trash and deal big damage to bosses or maybe you might make it cast more often but a bit more balanced. Like doom adds a debuff to monsters that causes them to take increased damage (works on bosses), if the monster dies under doom then the cooldown on doom is reduced, else at the end of doom it will either kill any non-boss related content if below 50% health or deal significant potency damage at the end (and go on the full cooldown in either situation). Now you've an example where doom is more useful than it is even currently yet doom is also not entirely different spell, and it's also more reliable (in either example, you know if it'll work or not and spam praying isn't a thing - man... I really dislike miss spamming stuff lol). Going back to the above on White Wind you might think then if it requires using your gauge and debuffs that you'll be really hurting your damage to do so, this already begins to self balance blue, add some cooldowns to it and you're already on your way to a situation where like Paladin the heal is for the most niche situations and you should never really be using it. Or simply change White Wind when you're in DF mode such that it's a HUGE cure but more consistently useful and at the same time balanced, like for example white wind may cure yourself for 600 potency, and then heals all allies nearby for your current health total equally divided + 200 potency (add cooldown and some sort of preventative cost). Now white wind is more consistently useful (rather than over curing all the time like ADVSS said) and at the same time more balanced since you'd have a clear maximum of healing that would be less crazy than max healing every person because you happened to be max health and yet still have a lot of the heart and soul of white wind (although obviously not entirely. . . ).

You may do something too where you give blue mage this sort of 'oh my lord' moment utility but they share the same tree, so your tank skills and your heal skills would not only reduce your damage output but they're also in the shared boat. Temporarily you might cover your skin in the shell of mighty guard but you're no longer casting white wind (which could either be due to shared cooldown or simply they both cost too much of your gauge / mp to do something like that). There are a number of solutions to where you could leave blue mage some really long reaching arms in terms of diverse 'worse case scenario' options while making their normal status something entirely balanced within similar means of other jobs. Like Red Mage whose worst case scenario of handing out raises like candy, but honestly should never be the standard activity cause.. 'that's bad' lol. So while Red Mage can raise your whole party blue mage might have some more stronger diversity options but not as much long lasting choices, like blue mage could dump an insanely impressive heal and.. that was it. If that didn't help well.. everyone is going to die lol, meanwhile red mage would cast raise AGAIN, and vercure, AGAIN. I shouldn't say it like "not a concern" because balance is always concerning lol, but I believe you can find a place where it feels both unique but also not so powerful that other jobs are awful in comparison, of course there will always be flavor of the month no matter what, but like currently you'll see people go as the job they want because they wanted to even if "x" was probably going to add a bit more utility for whatever reason.

Personally I think for the tanking side you would give blue mage a spell they could cast on self or others, like mighty guard, so you may use it on a tank in an "oh god" situation if your healer was down (but your damage would suffer, so choose wisely), or on yourself if you were the target (but you'd not be able to steal enmity as a DF blue so there would not be a situation where people set you up to tank, and even if they wanted to abuse your mighty guard it would still be on the actual tanks and not you).

If you wanted you could even give blue mage Angel Whisper in DF setting with a cooldown where it lasts for a set duration and if nothing happens will cure the target and if they die while under the effect then they'll be instantly revived instead (as if raise was cast on them). Making their raise unique but also limited in scope compared to Red Mage or other jobs where they can spam it. Which would help justify their other quirks and perhaps also their damage not being slapped too hard for the breadth of options they have but the limited endurance of said options (allowing themselves distance from red mage as well, since your burst of support is good but not really the length of it).

Other thoughts might begin to crop up depending on how you approach stuff, just for example with Summoner I thought it would be nice if Titan got a lot of his tanky vibes back by getting his health bar again (summoned with health automatically, maybe has an mp cost that increases if you recast him too quickly within a time limit for balance) but he'll cover the summoner and so all the targets and damage is still done to the summoner (and titan wouldn't be granting summoner the insane aoe damage reduction he used to have). In this way for a short moment summoner might provide this feeling of tankyness, certainly in the open world, but it would be short lived in dungeons (due to not having all the defense) and also be at the cost of their damage. Meanwhile another example was on a transformation job I'd love to see in the game (the concept of transformations, on a job I can main... or at least a very OP solo focused limited job, god please no to pf exclusive focused.. I really don't want that for another dream job I was hoping for lol). Here the job would have a bruiser form that would temporarily grant them tanky like abilities such as reducing damage or self healing themselves while attacking, perhaps a mechanic that reduces the max amount of damage they take (exception for some boss mechanics), but as soon as their abilities and charged passives were used up they'd quickly become squishy. In situations of open world or unsyncing content and they can pace out the abilities slower they'd feel veeerrryyy tanky for a DD job, but in any situation that they were synced the tanky status would be short lived because mechanically it couldn't sustain for that long (for 30 whole seconds you held a boss, good on you! lol, also no enmity stealing spells).

Anyway, I think hybrid DF would be akin to Red Mage but in shorter bursts. With the balance being around about Red Mage too, except perhaps with the failsafe that when their debuffs start failing they deal more damage rather (which means they might deal a bit more damage than Red Mage but their sustained support wouldn't be as good, they could greatly temporarily help a situation but it wouldn't last as for long as a Red Mage could). I also feel that plays decently well with blue mage's role of carnival, sort of these acts they perform. "And here is my grand finale show" and you've got to buy another ticket to get the show again lol (also I think using the act concept can help balance and add mental flow to the more weird blue mage spells, by putting things into later acts or addendum performances that you only get to do every so often but they are your main performances). Limited blue can be more unrestricted and so they could, in a pre-made, get all the stuff they need to tank, heal, or whatever weird as can be.

Though on the topic of limited I kind of hope mimicry as a strict trinity spell goes away, and reintroduce the concepts through kit building instead, like glower may put you in a temporary state of increased enmity (temporary tank stance), the look double the enmity of the next spell, some new spell might deal extra damage based on the enmity generated from the attack, meanwhile you might even gain spells that dump your enmity for extra damage or support effects (so you might build enmity without the intention of tanking), a list of spells that allow you to step into the tank role without having your other skills strictly be trash because of it. Your healer situation would be like rather than a buff that says your heals either suck or don't you'd have situations like pom cure is a good cure but casting it consecutively will increase mp cost, so you'd want other cures but other cures would have their own thing like consumes enmity, has cooldown or charges, etc, can have fun with high mp cost spells too like a spell that makes your next offensive spell's cost become added potency and cost nothing (naturally this spell would need a cooldown lol), so your cure isn't garbage just because you didn't use a specific stance that makes other parts of your kit garbage lol, but also if you wanted to be 'the healer' you'd need multiple healing spells (yet your other spells are not told to go jump off a bridge because you set your role, conceptually, to healer). That all is starting to diverge into limited blue's issues, in my opinion, though.. and not making it normal (I wish for more of blue mage, if limited or at least "when limited", to be complex and powerful kit building that isn't necessarily so obvious and forced, meanwhile making each spell you obtain, as much as humanly possible, a spell that's cool and useful on its own but also interesting when considered part of a set).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Stereotypically most of blue mage is damage and or other means of incapacitating the foe, in the history of blue mage spells

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While the BLU history lesson is "mostly" accurate, its still kind of misleading. But thats not really important to bring up imo, unless we're in a debate on "What does it truly mean to be a True Blue Mage?". (Which I find pointless 99% of the time to talk about, but ill mention it in the next bit anyways)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Although.. I still think that blue mage would have made a great candidate for tank, assuming it was built that was from the ground up

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I absolutely agree. 2.0-3.0 pretty much gave tanks more spamable AoE options than most DPS, and even more easy to spam in 4.0 (not all dps, as BLM was truly able to infinitely spam AoE) and FF5 BLU was one of the few FF jobs that had a higher number of AoEs than single target options. (With SMN being another notable AoE job) I know this means nothing to SE, as 2.0 SMN wasnt amazing at AoE, but BLM, the single target nuker was the AoE DPS... But from a design standpoint, trying to keep job flavor, imo, it made sense to put the AoE job as a tank.
Next was how BLUs spells in FF5 used a variety of stats, but the number of spells which were determined by HP were higher than the number of spells determined by another stat. Followed by how BLUs had to have enough survival in which to take the hit and survive, in order to learn the spell. (So far all 3 of these reasons dont apply to every version of BLU) They also wore better armor than most back row jobs, putting them on par with most front row DPS, who could take the extra damage multiplier from being in the front row. (This isnt actually intended to be part of its "identity", but a balance issue. In future games, BLU has been seen being "back row only" as well) Of course buff spells/self heals helped them survive in the front row as well (and the other similar job RDM) But as you mentioned in the history of BLU, while they had more offensive options, they still had plenty of strong jack of all trades options (which they didnt need different elemental versions of heals, like they would need for nukes, so a singular heal option was fine) This leads into the argument of which role can actively fit all of these features reasonably? Using 2.0 WAR as an example, it does everything that a BLU could do. It can use heals, buff, debuff, dot, AoE (both cone, and circular). And could do so, w/o hindering their performance, unlike SMN/RDM who have to actively hinder their DPS to use raise/cures. So I agree, Tank seemed perfect. (Not to mention FFTAs BLU, which had "Damage MP" making it a far superior version to The Blackest Night, and in turn making BLUs unkillable in that game.)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

a flip of the job stone

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Honestly, youre following text is practically the same as to what everyone suggests, and functionally just a difference in name from what I said. I know the details can be different on a technical level, but if the outcomes is so similar, we might as well say its the same thing. (Not to say either of us is more correct in the way to deal with this hypothetical. Im mostly just saying we're already on the same boat.)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Other thoughts might begin to crop up depending on how you approach stuff, just for example with Summoner ...

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Ive felt slightly similar as well, though maybe not on the exact details. (But another example would have been giving BLM "Death" like in other FFs, so BLU wasnt technically the only one. Along with other oldschool "potent" skills to their respective jobs, but in the same way, have limited uses, and mostly just for fun. (Rather than a limited "job", have "Limited skills" in a manner similar to "Role skills", where the skills on the list dont always work in instanced group content, or in limited amounts)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I kind of hope mimicry as a strict trinity spell goes away, and reintroduce the concepts through kit building instead

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agreed.

The rest of this... I would agree about the complexity of making a build, if this was a game made just for you, me, and others like us. But all things considered, I think a more simplistic version would be better in the long run. I'd say you should still make a build, but I'd keep it easier to understand "what works with what" at an initial glance, w/o needing to test every combination. I still think spells should just be as simple as "Tank" "Healer" and "DPS" types. Stacking them is good. Using the UI to show a "bar" filling up when you stack same role type spells. The higher the bar goes, the better your performance will be in that role. Going half DPS and half tank, will show the bar barely go up, which makes it obvious you're going to have your performance hindered. (I measured hindrance based on cast time. Using Fire4 as an example, it takes longer to cast fire4, than the GCD. So you want to shorten the cast time. A BLU would want the bar filled, as the more its filled, the lower your cast time is, which this is a DPS increase. Also, if you lower it past the GCD, you can then safely weave in oGCDs w/o clipping. If you dont lower it enough, you still clip, but maybe your supportive options can help make up for the clipping.)