Ok... so I know there are many threads already about wanting/not wanting FFXI gear swap system in the game. I decided to make a new thread to actually discuss an alternative as we seem to have a very notable difference of opinion among the players.
Lets throw that idea of FFXI gear swap away for a minute, and not discuss it, clearly it was a system with its pros and cons.
It was an eyesore.
It demanded the players to get and carry many pieces of gear (good and bad).
Among many other things (this thread is not about that).
So after reading this one: (or most of it)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/42378-Legitimate-reasons-why-many-of-you-do-NOT-like-Gear-Swapping
I saw that there are no real suggestions as to where to go, just either wants or not wants, but then i saw a post by Xoo about materias, and i would like to elaborate on that idea.
Personally I would like a system that does the following:
1) Flows with the game properly (no blinking) perhaps with an animation...
2) Makes me want multiple choices of gear for each of the slots (It helps create a gap between my main jobs and not-so main jobs), and make sure i don't throw away my old useless gear.
3) That it keeps the game entertaining with endgame progression (in XI generally Sky and relicAF first, then the rest... Salvage, einherjar etc...). So that a few pieces from our current raids are phased out, but some stay.
4) That it doesn't kill crafting.
5) Lastly I would like the system a system that gives me an opportunity to keep those pieces of gear that are now obsolete, but I once wore proudly. Much like the initial materia system aimed to be.
Bonus)
1) Try to not destroy inventory spaces (like rdm in XI).
2) Try to keep the materia system.
(these two might be mutually exclusive)
--I know some of you don't like the gear swap idea because of the "lack of preparation " for a fight, but try to consider getting the gear your preparation for the next fight--
Ok, so on to the idea... Please keep in mind this is for endgame play not exping, but certainly we can accommodate for that...
This idea involves two new kinds of materia-like items and a new type of materia-like affixing, I will call the items Soul Gems and SoullessArmor (silly name yes, temporary).
What this new crafting process will do is split a piece of gear into two forms, one the Soul Gem and one the Soulless Armor. The Soul Gem will contain all the stats of the item, and the Soulless Armor will have now one slot for a "Soul Gem". This process only needs to be done the first time. There will also be a reverse process (to enable resell).
The Soulless Armor is what you actually equip for the way your character looks. This aspect will make you keep some items for their looks, create some uniqueness between the players so not 100% of the people who can use byakko's haidate will have them on as their main look.
The Soul Gem will carry all of the item's stats even what is added by materia and defense. They will be able to be changed during battle on the fly, but the Soulless Armor will not (you will keep the same outfit therefore addressing the blinking).
So clearly there needs to be some restrictions on the Soulless Armor, so we don't have mages running around in heavy plate and such; the soulless Armor and the Soul Gem will carry the same level and job/class restrictions as the armor piece that was split. They will conserve their Unique status if they have one, and all of them will be untradable (so the marketwards don't flood). Via the reverse process re-sell of split items will be possible, but it will only be possible to completely reverse the process if it returns the item to its original stats + whatever materia.
Ok... so theres a few issues that this system does not address, but can be addressed via other means.
First off... balancing the content, the content will need to have a progress. There will need to be a progression of content that gets increasingly more statwise demanding, so perhaps as patches are released the stat demand is higher. It will give that feeling of "hey I'm finally farming sea, after obtaining all that AF2,sky gear,HQ elemental staves, and so and so..."
It will help the casuals (who tend to shout for groups) by giving the more experienced players a reason to go back and get the gear they must have for their Hardcore LS (for that new job they want to play). It is arguable that there will be "elitism" in this matter, and people may not be invited because of their lack of gear. This issue is addressed by the fact that the gear they have while not as effective will be sufficient to clear the target raid/primal/NM/whatever. So elitism will more likely appear when shouting for higherstat play at which point players should just have an ls, and it should be clear that the reason for the lack of invite is that the player needs gear from A B C D E F G content before attempting H J K content...
So you want to just jump and get the best gear from H J K directly? That wont work... much like in XI there will be some pieces of gear in A B C D E F and G that are slotwise best option for casting some spell x or some ws y.
This has been a long post, last but not least, content should be challenging for the level of stats the players have while attempting it, but the drop system should fall heavier on the Hardcore players. As the patches progress and we get more content, the drop rate for old content should be increased as to allow for new Hardcore players and casual players to have the means to catch up to the Hardcore (and become one if they chose to do so).
Ok so I know the names i chose for the items are silly... but they are temporary. I know i must have missed some key concerns and would like to edit the idea as to address most or all of them. Discuss concerns and such, but no crying about what FFXI system used to be unless its relevant.
Don't forget to like the post if you like the idea, and also thanks for reading.
Please excuse any mistakes in my English as it is not my first language.
Likely that the next post be a please like if u dislike post. *do so even if it isn't*
An alternative to gear swaping
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04-13-2012, 03:32 AMWendyMarvellAn alternative to gear swaping
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04-13-2012, 03:46 AMWolfie
I like your idea because it serves both as appearance customization and as a compromise between gear swaps and no gear swaps.
But.
I don't think it will work as gear swapping because of one major reason: there are tiered sets of gear available now, and there will likely continue to be tiered sets of gear. Someone who is using darklight gear now has no reason to go back and swap in gear from the beastman camps or older dungeons. Gear swapping has a requirement that getting new gear provides sidegrades and is used situationally, as opposed to straight up being an upgrade in every sense.
I also think that the major argument is not that there is gear swapping in general -- because that is something that you can do now to optimize your existing gear before a battle. The argument is allowing gear-swapping in the middle of combat, which I will argue up and down that it is a bad idea if only because it an obtuse mechanic that becomes the default gameplay style. -
04-13-2012, 04:12 AMWendyMarvell
I can't argue about disliking it as a form of gameplay, however I (emphasis on I) believe that it provides for the use of more content, and that it could make a very enjoyable part of the game.
It is true that with our current content DarkLight is certainly the better piece for most situations, but if this game had gear swap, they would be seen in most of the ability enhancing / timer reducing AF pieces. In particular for mages, there are many crafted/materia pieces that are better than darklight which they would be gear swaping (int hat and convert hat for example).
If gear swaping didn't have a benefit to the player we wouldn't have the threads yet.
Thanks for the reply. -
04-13-2012, 04:15 AMAndrien
If I had to choose between regular gear swaps and this, I'll choose regular. And I don't like gear swaps.
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04-13-2012, 04:17 AMsyntaxlies
people will just wanna op 2 different sets and swap still,lol
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04-13-2012, 04:23 AMTibian
Why do we even need an "alternative" form? I am satisfied with how characters are developing, I am overjoyed gear swap doesn't exist, and I am pleased that in 2.0 mannequins will exist that function as gear holders for easy and efficient equipping.
All I see in these repetitious gear swap threads is pretty much "it was in XI, lets find a way to put it in XIV." I understand your post is examining an alternative to it; but you're still looking at putting in a system... simply because it was in XI.
I'd be super happy if they came out with a cosmetic outfit system as you are describing, but not for the sole purpose of including gear swap.
In general, gear swap was a terrible mechanic of XI that created a plethora of problems that were not able to be fixed during the entire lifespan of the game. I think even the proponents of gear swap understand the logistical nightmare it continued to impose on the game. I don't want to see a repeat of inventory overload, constant blinking of characters based on the attack I am about to use, macro hell (especially given how terrible macros function in XIV), or even party restrictions because I don't have 20 pieces of gear for each of my 10 attacks.
I think a better question to ask the forums would be "why do you feel it is necessary to promote a feature like gear swap?"
Do you think there isn't enough character customization? Do you feel the character progression isn't satisfying enough? Do you desire more skills? More diversity? What is it that you REALLY want out of gear swap or a system that functions along the same lines? I haven't heard a solid answer throughout all of the gear swap threads except "it was in XI."
Talent systems add alternative advancement for characters and can be used to introduce new spells, FUN spells, character advancement, and easy swapping for fights. If made correctly, a good talent system eliminates all the issues of gear swapping and allows for a diverse makeup of characters. I am sure now that I brought up talents, someone will bring up merits. Merits are a form of a talent system yes. Unfortunately they lacked the proper means to increase diversity and instead increased the amount of elitism and classism that existed in XI. Didn't have the right merit? No party invite. Furthermore, merits were just horrible reason to add another insane amount of grinding to a game that clearly had enough. I don't want to see merits either. If XIV can improve on merits and create a brilliant talent system that promotes diversity, eliminates the classism regarding merits, and removes the grind associated with merits then yes I'd be elated to see such a system.
I am pretty happy without talent systems, or merit systems, or even gear swap systems. Someday I think I'd like to see an introduction of talents -- certainly not in the form of merits and definitely not in the form of gear swap.
As I close this post; let me give you some food for thought. If you really want gear swap... the materia system does exist. In fact, you have the option to meld several pieces of materia to one piece of gear. Simply meld to your hearts content and swap that gear BEFORE battle starts.
Couldn't have said it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
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04-13-2012, 05:02 AMWendyMarvellThere really needs not be any other reason than because I liked it in XI... not because it was in XI, but because i liked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibian
I think XI was indeed built around gear swapping, and that is not a bad thing, as the game progressed the tougher fights required some serious gear stacking to cast 1 spell (particularily rdm), said gear made every other spell almost obsolete to be cast in the set thinking about enfeebling para to slow. I found the collection of gear to build each one of my sets to be the most entretaining part of XI. It is not like you would bring 3 or 4 rdms to cast each 1 different spell in XI.
Furthermore, i don't share the idea that gear swapping was a terrible mechanic, it made XI unique in that way and if the content is appropriate by requiring the stat specialization, then what the gear swap adds to the game is just the repetition of content for gear u need for that new job u want to play, and hopefully someday we will have enough content for that to be a pleasure rather than CC/AV spamming (like right now).
The merit system as with our point allotment system right now are the parts that u can't change on the fly. This is the character customization, and I would like it to remain that way.
I'm glad u like the cosmetic idea, I'd love it if we have something like that at least.
In summary, i don't want this game to become XI-2, but this characteristic of XI was one of those that I'd like to see here...
Thanks for the reply =) -
04-13-2012, 05:29 AMWolfie
FYI, gear swapping in FFXI was considered an exploit by the devs. They decided to tough it out and design content with the idea that people would be swapping gear mid-combat, because by the time they learned that gear swapping was a thing, removing it would have caused a gigantic backlash from the community.
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04-13-2012, 06:10 AMMolly_Millions
I don't think we need an alternative to gear swapping. I only have time atm to skim the first post, so I apologize if I'm way off base. I would be against any system that allows players to change their stats mid battle. That goes for materia, actual stat points, gear or any other system people dream up. You should have to prepare before you enter battle. If the battle is not beatable without switching stats in the middle of it (which isn't truly allowed right now anyway) then SE did not do a good job balancing said battle.
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04-13-2012, 06:13 AMJynx
I'd rather jobs have multiple builds that were usefull in battle.
I'd like there to be multiple sets of gear I can obtain at max level for differnt battle scenarios such as solo, party, NM's, Damage dealing, Evasion.
I want lots of good gear to get, but I don't want to be switching into it mid battle. -
04-13-2012, 06:25 AMExni
Good post OP! This is something along what I think Xoo, myself, and a few others in that thread were getting at. Swapping materia would be a cool alternative if they revamp the materia system, like you suggested. I kinda like the names by the way...
Don't let the Anti-gearswappers get to you. For the most part they will hate any alternative suggested that doesn't completely prevent everyone from swapping stats during battle. They don't need a reason.. haters gonna hate. Immersion? Blinking? Elitism?.. whatever.. -
04-13-2012, 06:33 AMMolly_MillionsIt's not about immersion, blinking or elitism for me, it's about when you need to make the decision; because before battle requires more thought that switching stats, which requires none. To allow the switching stats mid-battle, takes all of the strategy out of preparing for battle. Copying macros takes no strategy what-so-ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exni
Immersion, blinking and elitism only add to the only reason we need not to add such a cheesy and possibly game-breaking mechanic. -
04-13-2012, 07:41 AMSwordCoheir
Frankly I think I'd rather see them improve upon existing mechanics that push the boundaries of each job in sort of a cohesion effort dynamic sort of gameplay that would promote strengths and use of each of the different jobs/weapon types.
Example:
Have a highly damaging mob, who's strong to blunt and piercing attacks, weak to slash attacks, and has a defensive mechanism barrier that keeps melees from getting close enough to attack and another that inhibits players from doing damage, however to break down the defenses and damage by the mob you need to have a balanced group of each type of attack.
Phase 1:
-Though strong to piercing, mid-long ranged attackers like BRD and DRG can actually reach his defensive mechanism and with positional WS combos can break his first defensive mechanism.
Phase 2:
-Once DD's can get close, the blunt users can focus on damaging his second defense mechanism that's weak to blunt attacks through positional WS combos, so damage can actually be done.
But wait! Let's throw a loop in there and say we really pissed off the NM bloke by taking out his defenses, and now his attack shoots through the roof and he starts to tear the tank a superfluous new one.
Phase 3:
-Now to keep the tank from being destroyed, slash attackers have to focus on doing their own positional WS combos to stun the beast or break whatever part that's letting the NM destroy the tank till the other DD's/BLMs can bring it down.
I'd much rather have a system that promoted party versatility like that, and really let each player shine doing their own part in a group that didn't focus on gear swapping dynamics for performance. If you really wanted too you could bring a secondary weapon that utilized a different form of damage, like how PLD's have Daggers for piercing, Machulettis (sp) for blunt, and regular swords for slash attributes. Personally I think it would add a bit more dynamic gameplay, and at the very least carrying a second or third weapon for each job would be easier on the inventory than carrying four different sets of gear or materia for each job. -
04-13-2012, 08:00 AMExnQuote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
Stop saying that. It's just simply not true. It doesn't require more thought to viably use less equipment... you will go with whatever is best-in-slot for that fight.. done. If you swap, you could very well start with the EXACT same set someone who's not swapping would for the EXACT same reasons. The swapper is ALSO planning for the dynamic changes that may take place during the fight. He/She is choosing and planning to adjust his stats at different points during the fight for very specific reasons. Both the swapper and non-swapper are cycling through abilities to also account for changes in the fight, as usual. It takes more thought to swap effectively... than to just stand there looking pretty..
"Takes the strategy out of preparing for battle"?? Comments like that suggest you don't understand gear swapping. "Copying macros takes no strategy what-so-ever"?? Comments like that confirm you don't understand gear swapping. Anyone can copy any macro.. so what's your point? Clearly that must be how you go about "making" all your macros. Some of us actually create our own macro's 1) because writing macros isn't rocket science.... and 2) because we want them to be effective for our own individual playstyles. Coming across new gear/soulgem( plug for the OP! :) ) and thinking "Hmmm.. Maybe I can use that to boost the effect of my self-buff and get a little extra dps,... let just me incorperate that into my (already written) self -buff macro". While someone else mite see that same piece of gear/soulgem and think "Hmmm.. Maybe I can use that for a good new kiting build" and goes and creates +eva +vit +whatever-the-hell-they-want build just in case they unexpectedly grab hate. None of it's required. It's just how some of us would like to play. We choose to add more strategy and planning to our combat.
"Possibly Game-breaking mechanic"? I enjoy alot of what you have to say (and what I hear you do in game ) on the forums. But w/ regard to our brief little discussion on this topic, I'm just done. To each his/her own. -
04-13-2012, 08:34 AMEnfarious
Why I don't want gear swapping:
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</if>
</if>
<elseif Status="Engaged">
<equip when="engaged|aftercast" set="$DayNightEngaged" />
<if advanced='("$DDMode" == "Tank" OR "$DDMode" == "Haste" OR "$DDMode" == "Acc" OR "$DDMode" == "Eva" OR "$DDMode" == "MaxEva")'>
<equip when="engaged|aftercast" set="$DayNight$DDMode" />
</if>
</elseif>
<elseif Status="Idle">
<equip when="idle|aftercast" set="$DayNightIdle" />
<if HPPLT="95">
<equip when="idle|resting|aftercast" set="Regen" />
</if>
<if MPPLT="95">
<equip when="idle|resting|aftercast" set="Refresh" />
</if>
</elseif>
<else> <!-- We shouldn't get here -->
<var cmd="set DDMode %Status" />
<equip when="idle|engaged|aftecast" set="$DayNight%status" />
</else>
</rules>
</spellcast>
Yes I really have 20+ of these and wrote them all, they're obscene, but super useful, I don't want to go through it again for this game though. That's ~1/3 of the actual script, and only for 1/20 jobs, considering I left out the includes. Obviously I wouldn't actually use this in game or condone the use of such...
But the OP gives a very nice alternative to it, just having gear slots that we could swap specially "souls" in and out of, I can even see this with a minor animation maintaining the immersion that so many MMO players enjoy, while giving the min/maxers their gear swaps in a slightly different form. Keeping a smallish pouch of souls that I've extracted from my favorite gear.
Unless I completely misunderstood. Yes I simplified the crap out of it too. -
04-13-2012, 08:58 AMStateAlchemistNo one told you to go out and violate to ToS by using a third-party program to make an excessive macro-list. Obviously not only was it your choice to do it, but you wanted to do it so badly that you broke the rules of the game and risked getting banned to do so. Sounds to me like your all for it. I never gear-swapped more then what one macro would allow me to do for any spell/ability in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
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04-13-2012, 09:12 AMKlive
You what, why stop with gear swapping?
Lets make it you can change classes/jobs mid combat too!
Combat can be just like FF 10-2. We even can can it dress spheres!
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dressphere
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6_vP...eature=related
/sarcasm off -
04-13-2012, 09:25 AMFreinIf you think a modern MMO gamer new to FFXIV would swallow mid-combat gear swaps, you're utterly delusional. Not only does it have direct negative consequences to the game's presentation and offered gameplay experience, but as game design it is completely unintuitive. No new player who hasn't played FFXI is even going to entertain the thought of being able to change pants during combat because of how detached from their idea of "combat" it is. You don't change pants during combat. You're busy trying to not die! This same argument works just as well against just about any proposed substitute system whether it's visually pleasing or not. You're also too busy to change materia, jewelry, soul gems, shoelaces, moisturizer or whatever "less cumbersome" items you try to insert as a substitute. You don't swap anything that isn't specifically designed to be immediately available, like a weapon hanging from your belt, and even then you drop or toss away your previous weapon because there is no time to fumble around with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exni
The only valid argument for allowing gear swaps is that it would increase the amount of valid sidegrade options, but sidegrades can, to a great extent, exist without it, too. One weapon has tank stats, one has DD stats, one is accurate and good against high evasion monsters, one deals elemental damage, etc. The possibilities for situational gear that is useful outside the context of a mid-battle gear swap are vast. Heck, even WoW had situational but highly useful (even necessary) sidegrades despite of a design philosophy that heavily emphasized gear tiering. -
04-13-2012, 10:01 AMWendyMarvellThanks for editing into something that actually reflects that you read... The lore could easily accommodate for the nature of the fast switch of the soulgems. There could be a quest line that teaches the player how to use the soul gems (much like the how to spiritbond and make materias).Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
More importantly, when did we start to want this game to become another generic modern MMO?
There will obviously be sidegrades to the gear, with or without a system for changing stats mid combat. The range of the sidegrades should be greater if we can switch the stats of our gear around mid combat. In the end you will always select the piece of gear which is best, the difference is the number of roles that you can play in a single fight (mostly referring to the mages). -
04-13-2012, 10:11 AMillriginalizedlol... you're pretty ballsy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
Sometimes there has to be conformity, at least the slightest bit. Otherwise anything attempting to be a non-conformist will just falter over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by WendyMarvell
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04-13-2012, 10:19 AMExnOhhh I didn't know you spoke for all "modern MMO gamers new to FFXIV"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
Your opinion is that it it will have negative consequences. Based on the rest of that paragraph it would seem that is due to 'immersion' issues. See what you quoted for my opinion on that... -
04-13-2012, 10:30 AMillriginalizedAfter extensively reading people and their immersion claims.. I'm starting to think these people prefer this virtual reality (FFXIV) more so than their very own actual reality. Which is quite interesting yet scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exn
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04-13-2012, 01:22 PMEnfariousOk that does make it seem that this was something I enjoyed, it wasn't at all, and that wasn't what I was trying to convey by posting that, the point is, I don't want to see things like that again. Will they eventually happen? Yes. Let's not encourage it by having another gearswapping nightmare though.Quote:
Originally Posted by StateAlchemist
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04-13-2012, 01:28 PMEnfariousIt seemed like the best way to make a point at the time, maybe not the smartest way to do it, but effective I think if people take it with a grain of salt and in the nature it was intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by illriginalized
Figure worst case I lose a string of FF accts, here's to hoping that doesn't happen though. -
04-13-2012, 02:00 PMWendyMarvellIt is a very valid point that as the game progresses, the macro scripts become increasingly more complex (although these macros were very easy to write).Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfarious
So lets tweak the system a little, it could be eased in with what SE has planned for the mannequin system, a set of souls that you call into your macro. If i remember correctly, we are going to be having a limited number of mannequins, so lets make the number of soulsets limited as well (per job) a random number not greater than 10 perhaps it increases through quests or levels?
This new limit to the system will make it so you have to make your choice of which soulsets you want to take to the raid/primal/NM/whatever content, and ensure that your macros don't get out of hand. While still allowing you to fulfill many roles in the fight (again looking at the mages).
Perhaps the system would involve a very high amount of sets you can save, but you can only choose a small amount of these sets to actually "carry".
I want also to mention that the purpose of the thread is to establish a middle ground, for those who want gear swap and those who do not. Clearly there is a difference of opinion.
Everyone thanks for your replies. Please keep them coming =) -
04-13-2012, 10:56 PMEnfariousI'm all for finding that middle ground, that's why I like the idea of "souls" and I like the idea of only being able to have so many "carried" perhaps a section of our "moghouse" just for storing the ones we aren't using atm, and only being able to carry say 10 on our person at any given time. It's enough that mages could carry 1 for each element and 1 for enfeebles/enhancing/curing.Quote:
Originally Posted by WendyMarvell
I can't see whipping a mannequin out in the middle of a fight while I have my spear up trying to ready a WS then trying to pull of my hat to switch it with the mannequin, then my shirt, and so on. It'd be f'in hilarious though if SE said, "You know what we're sick of this gear swap argument, you can swap anytime you want, BUT we've added animations to every gear change. Say 15 seconds to change your shirt, 30 to change your pants. There's your immersion, now you have to watch yourself change and while doing it get wailed on while you've no defense at all."
Souls I can see as just having to "activate" one that's already slotted in your gear, or the few seconds to pull one out to put in another, digging through a puch of 10 different colored glowing golfballs would not take too long to find the yellow. But back to that "activate" if we could have say a varrying amount of souls "slotted" in our gear.
AF Head/Hand/Feet 1 slot > AF Head/Hands/Feet +1 2slots
AF Body/Legs 2 slots > AF Body/Legs +1 3 slots
But you can only have 1+(1 per piece of AF+2) Active.
Now we just need to be able to upgrade AF > AF +1 > AF +2...