PL Woes

I'll be the first to admit it. I enjoyed the benefit of several PL parties when I was leveling up. That however was only between 10-18. Happened rarely. Still took a week, and was in FFXI :P

The issue I'm finding now is EVERYONE is PLing in FFXIV like crazy. The worst part is that people are delusional enough to DEFEND it!? I keep getting asked what is the problem? I'll tell you the problem.

I ran a Mog pick up and we wiped. Not because we slow killed. Not because we got screwed on the Memento. Not even because of a stray Pom-flare. We lost because our Whm didn't know how to Esuna. Or even what it did. Nor did he realize there was a cool down on PoM and he used it earlier on a random Cura. I asked him in /tell what is going on, if he was drunk.

Nope.

He was new. In fact this was his first week playing.

Full AF level 50 Mog access first weeker.

PLing is getting out of hand and while this may be an extreme case it goes to show the root of the problem. People can level fast too fast and in the process rob themselves of the experience they need to play the game. These are the noobs I guess, they don't know any better. What is truly frightening are the people who have 1-2 50's and PL everything else because they've "earned" it. Or they "learn the job at 40" when you can reach 50 within a day or so in the correct camps.


It defeats the purpose of attaining a capped job and destroys the sense of personal identity. When someone has 1-3 jobs because it simply takes to long to reach their full potential they become recognized for their accomplishment. Also this reflects their mindset and defines them as a player. What happens when 70% of the server has everything capped? Sure you have much easier end game since you can be flexible but at what cost? What I loved in FFXI was gaining expierence and becoming talented in my choice of occupation. When I came to an event I got to show off not only my skill but a piece of personality. I had structure and a sense of belonging because I took pride in my job type.

I understand they are working 'round the clock to make up on content and that 2.0 will bring sweeping changes but this is something that needs attention now. If they allow such a large piece of their core subscribers to get so far ahead this quickly, there will be no one around to enjoy the additions in 2.0

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I know I'll get flamed for this but....

....Crafting and Gathering. ^^

that's why i stick with only running my static group and rarely ever run in a pub party anymore. it's an issue that has been getting progressively worse lately.

PL or not, a vast majority of players out there will not know how to properly play their class/job/role. Even before PL was a big thing, I ran into tons of bad players who had no idea what they were doing. It is up to each person to want to better themselves and learn how to play a particular role well. If that desire is not there, it does not matter how they leveled. They will not know how to play that role well.

Personally, and I tell everyone this at some point, I don't care how anyone gets their levels as long as they know how to play the role they have taken as their main(s). If someone intends to play a class/job often, I expect them to know how to play it well. If they don't, I would suggest that they either learn or play something they do know well. As a courtesy, I do the same. I have CNJ/WHM at 50, full AF and all. However because I know I'm not a great healer, I have no intention of playing it. If I were to decide to play it though, I would take the time to learn how to effectively utilize it in the healer role. That is a personal motivation and desire that must exist in order for someone to play well.

Edit: I'm not saying PL is right or the way to go. I'm just saying that this issue exists regardless of PL. PL may not help things but it does not cause this issue. A bad player will always be a bad player, regardless of how they hit cap, unless they find the desire to better themselves.

Doing it the 'hard way' is no guarantee that someone is a good player, and it goes the other way around too. Pick up groups are always tricky, no matter how skilled all 8 players are. . . .

Think you're overreacting a bit on the last part. No need to worry about no one being there for 2.0

I've ran into and played with people who played like they were braindead on a lv50 way before PLing was even viable/doable in FFXIV.

Solution: Play with people that you know are good.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

PL or not, a vast majority of players out there will not know how to properly play their class/job/role. Even before PL was a big thing, I ran into tons of bad players who had no idea what they were doing. It is up to each person to want to better themselves and learn how to play a particular role well. If that desire is not there, it does not matter how they leveled. They will not know how to play that role well.

Personally, and I tell everyone this at some point, I don't care how anyone gets their levels as long as they know how to play the role they have taken as their main(s). If someone intends to play a class/job often, I expect them to know how to play it well. If they don't, I would suggest that they either learn or play something they do know well. As a courtesy, I do the same. I have CNJ/WHM at 50, full AF and all. However because I know I'm not a great healer, I have no intention of playing it. If I were to decide to play it though, I would take the time to learn how to effectively utilize it in the healer role. That is a personal motivation and desire that must exist in order for someone to play well.

Edit: I'm not saying PL is right or the way to go. I'm just saying that this issue exists regardless of PL. PL may not help things but it does not cause this issue. A bad player will always be a bad player, regardless of how they hit cap, unless they find the desire to better themselves.

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Inherently there lies the problem though. Because of the absurdly low amount of time and effort it takes to cap you get a large amount of players with 50's who has no vocation at that job. If the leveling process was much longer, tenuous, and challenging you would produce better players. Those without the head or the will to play the job well will abandon it. Why take something to 50 if you hate/suck at it if it takes you 2 months?

Granted you can learn the job if you really want to get good at it even if it was PL'd to all get out but if that were the case. What is the problem with leveling the job at normal pace? If you really wanted to be proficient at a class then taking it from 1-50 should be part of the experience.

Also good morning Arcell :P

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Dumb people is dumb, they exists whether PL'd or not.

I would rather have a clueless somebody at 50 in a week, than have the same person quit at level 30 because leveling is boring as all hell. And trust me, there are dozens of people who do this.

If SE is not willing to make leveling fun and engaging, with multiple ways to progress through the levels aside from mob grindan and leve grindan, then I'm going to defend PLing.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I would rather have a clueless somebody at 50 in a week, than have the same person quit at level 30 because leveling is boring as all hell. And trust me, there are dozens of people who do this.

If SE is not willing to make leveling fun and engaging, with multiple ways to progress through the levels aside from mob grindan and leve grindan, then I'm going to defend PLing.

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sure and there's dozens of good players that quit because they keep having to deal with those clueless people in parties.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

sure and there's dozens of good players that quit because they keep having to deal with those clueless people in parties.

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Calling bulls**t on this. Show me proof of people quitting because they had to deal with noobs at 50.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I would rather have a clueless somebody at 50 in a week, than have the same person quit at level 30 because leveling is boring as all hell. And trust me, there are dozens of people who do this.

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Not to be blunt but GOOD! FFXI had smaller player base them most but each and every person in that game proved themselves by virtue of even having a single 75. It represented commitment. The willingness to tough it out. Be able to scrap and scrounge gil together and play through the game despite the roadblocks in their way. Roadblocks that which look upon post-cap were actually mile stones.

If a number of subscribers will quit the game because everything isn't handed to them on a silver platter then so be it. The game, community, and SE are better off for it. Those who cannot be arsed to put up the effort to attain that which they want are fickle to begin with and will leave the game with the change of the wind. FFXI's limited the amount of people who would play beyond a few days with every day challenges. Those that stay stayed for YEARS and paid for years. Going for the quick buck easy mode is going to clip their tail profits in the end. While screwing the existing players by making what should be accomplishments into no-effort rewards for anyone who can sit around while someone else exploits the game.

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Click it!

Wow, if your honest opinion is that leveling should not be fun and that making it fun means making it easy mode, then I'm done with this topic and may god help this game.

I know leveling up the hard way is not a "sure way" to make people know their job and party role, but it sure does force them to TRY to learn to play properly and to learn to survive. Let's say normal level grinding process is what weeds out the "dumbness" in people (or even weed out the bad player who cannot play properly to survive LOL). No matter how dumb or slow they are, they WILL learn more from playing the class/job properly than from being PL'ed.

And yes this issue is why I am afraid of doing big stuff with random people.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Full AF level 50 Mog access first weeker.

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This is what the current generation of gamers want.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Calling bulls**t on this. Show me proof of people quitting because they had to deal with noobs at 50.

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why should i have to show you proof of anything? i've known multiple people that have left the game because of dealing with them. i've got as much proof as you do. if someone quit because leveling took time in a mmo then a mmo wasn't for them in the first place.

While the journey is important and can help build skill, it is not guaranteed. There will always be bad players because they have no personal desire to be good at their chosen role.

I think the bigger issue is lack of ways to level 1-45. You have leves which are decent but boring and monotonous. You have one low level open dungeon which hardly anyone uses. You've got one L25 dungeon and then nothing except leves and grind from 30-45. We need more content for the gaps that exist and that will only come in time so we must be patient.

I gotta ask you guys, why is it that you guys are such sticks in the mud about people not being experienced, instead of simply trying to teach them? I have played multiple MMOs, and I can count on my hands the number of occasions that I ran into people who outright refused to learn.

He's playing poorly and you ask him if he's drunk? Seriously? Do you have any idea how much of a douche you sound like when you say something like that? Approaching someone in an accusing manner and foaming at the mouth is the fastest way to make sure your group turns to s**t.

SWEEET! It has been a while since there was a PL hate thread. OP stop sucking and QQing and replace the WHM there are plenty of idiots out there that didnt get PLed and still suck at their class.

PS: Esuna will not make or break the fight, Mog was getting killed before this skill was even available.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

why should i have to show you proof of anything? i've known multiple people that have left the game because of dealing with them. i've got as much proof as you do. if someone quit because leveling took time in a mmo then a mmo wasn't for them in the first place.

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I know you're one of the lowest IQ posters on this site, but no, you have no proof. I have two linkshells that are sitting at a tiny fraction of their total member count, and both of these were started from people that started out fresh.

I will be posting pictures of this when I get home later today so you can eat your words.

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Originally Posted by Aleczan

I know leveling up the hard way is not a "sure way" to make people know their job and party role, but it sure does force them to TRY to learn to play properly and to learn to survive. Let's say normal level grinding process is what weeds out the "dumbness" in people (or even weed out the bad player who cannot play properly to survive LOL). No matter how dumb or slow they are, they WILL learn more from playing the class/job properly than from being PL'ed.

And yes this issue is why I am afraid of doing big stuff with random people.

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exactly this ^^

were there people that leveled even under the old fatigue system that were bad players? yes, there were plenty of them.

i can say that there were only a very few people that were horrible players that had 50's during the original leveling curve, but it's also true that people knew who they were by name because it took them long enough to reach cap that most groups already knew who they were so did not invite them to parties. the difference is now that same horrible player can get to cap in a few days so people do not know them.

anytime you jump into a pub party it's almost to the point you have to go check each person in the party to check their profile and see how long they've been playing.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

why should i have to show you proof of anything? i've known multiple people that have left the game because of dealing with them. i've got as much proof as you do. if someone quit because leveling took time in a mmo then a mmo wasn't for them in the first place.

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I call Bullshit on this as well

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I gotta ask you guys, why is it that you guys are such sticks in the mud about people not being experienced, instead of simply trying to teach them? I have played multiple MMOs, and I can count on my hands the number of occasions that I ran into people who outright refused to learn.

He's playing poorly and you ask him if he's drunk? Seriously? Do you have any idea how much of a douche you sound like when you say something like that? Approaching someone in an accusing manner and foaming at the mouth is the fastest way to make sure your group turns to s**t.

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I asked him in /tell instead of berating him in /p chat which I could have and should have done. Instead I choose to find out if he was having issues in private.

In this case YES I have more then a right to be a little pissed! When a CAPPED player comes to END GAME and doesn't know even the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of their JOB something is seriously WRONG! I basically then have to use up more of my anima to go back to town to shout for another player to fill his slot. Whom may or may not be even as bad as he was because picking up people in this game is like tip toeing a land mine of PL'd clueless gits. I can appreciate his lack of knowledge. Hell if I saw him out in the sand poking at goats I would give him a friendly hello, some useless advice, and a chunk of gil to start him off right. I was new too once and we all got to start somewhere. Finding him in my Mog party is not something that should even be possible.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

I asked him in /tell instead of berating him in /p chat which I could have and should have done. Instead I choose to find out if he was having issues in private.

In this case YES I have more then a right to be a little pissed! When a CAPPED player comes to END GAME and doesn't know even the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of their JOB something is seriously WRONG! I basically then have to use up more of my anima to go back to town to shout for another player to fill his slot. Whom may or may not be even as bad as he was because picking up people in this game is like tip toeing a land mine of PL'd clueless gits. I can appreciate his lack of knowledge. Hell if I saw him out in the sand poking at goats I would give him a friendly hello, some useless advice, and a chunk of gil to start him off right. I was new too once and we all got to start somewhere. Finding him in my Mog party is not something that should even be possible.

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You are what's wrong with the game, not the guy getting PLed to 50.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I know you're one of the lowest IQ posters on this site, but no, you have no proof. I have two linkshells that are sitting at a tiny fraction of their total member count, and both of these were started from people that started out fresh.

I will be posting pictures of this when I get home later today so you can eat your words.

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yeah nice personal attacks. people quit this game for many different reasons. saying that someone quit at level 30 is just that they quit at level 30. it does not add up to the reason each and every person quit at 30 was because it took a long time to level up.

for example:
they could have hated the story in this game that is really lacking.
they could have quit because they did not like the battle system.
they could have quit because they didn't like having no mid game content.
they could have quit because of leveling speed.
they could have quit because of a horrible community.
they could have quit due to the limiting fatigue system.
they could have quit because of the changes yohsi has put in.
they could have quit due to tanaka's original vision.
they could have quit due to their pc's having issues running the game.
they could have quit due to the constant game crashes.
they could have quit due to people being power leveled.

if your excuse is all of those people sub rank 30 quit the game because the leveling speed was so slow then where are they now? the speed has been made as fast as wow and xi now, but i don't see those 95% of players that quit back in game, yet. i'll eat my words when you show me where all those original players that left due to the speed of leveling have returned.

you cannot turn around and tell me that people have not quit because of people being power leveled. i know quite a few that quit when the first sp increase came into the game years ago because they were pissed their hours of grinding were worthless because someone could get more sp in one leve party than originally could be gotten in a full day of grinding.

Lmao people quitting because had to deal with bad players, thats first time i have heard that, that is taking justifications to a whole new level.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

If a number of subscribers will quit the game because everything isn't handed to them on a silver platter then so be it. The game, community, and SE are better off for it. Those who cannot be arsed to put up the effort to attain that which they want are fickle to begin with and will leave the game with the change of the wind. FFXI's limited the amount of people who would play beyond a few days with every day challenges. Those that stay stayed for YEARS and paid for years. Going for the quick buck easy mode is going to clip their tail profits in the end. While screwing the existing players by making what should be accomplishments into no-effort rewards for anyone who can sit around while someone else exploits the game.

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Not going to happen. SE is a business. They'll do what makes them the most money and the money right now are the casuals. Guess why they completely mutilated FFXI with Abyssea? Same reason.

Masochistic game design is dead. The MMO genre nowadays is top heavy, achievement system based junk that can't create content faster than the player can consume.

Just take linear single player games for example. They are usually 20-40 hours ball park. If someone plays 8 hours a day, they'll be done in less than a week. Same problem in MMOs. How long does it take people in cliques to clear new content in current FFXIV? Couple days?

The only way to stop mass exodus of quitting is to roadblock players by adding silly token/point systems that are capped per week, have terribad drop rates or have some sort of real life time-based lockout.

The argument nowadays is "This is a game not a job."

Sorry, while I agree PLing is silly, this is 2012 and the EverQuest-era is over. Time to let go. Only a small niche of players enjoy the journey anymore evidenced by the countless number of "new" games that are released which are the exact same gameplay model and become rather successful.

Almost none of the current games have the "takes forever to level" system. Even the "beloved" FFXI doesn't have it anymore and the PLing in current FFXI is even more ridiculous than this game.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Lmao people quitting because had to deal with bad players, thats first time i have heard that, that is taking justifications to a whole new level.

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it's not the bad players that caused the quit.

do you remember when they fixed the exploit for mages from healing the npc and getting sp off it? there were mages that quit over that too.

anytime something that goes in game that makes someone get something easier than before it pisses some off and they quit. how many times have you heard this person quit xi because of abby? it was because their work they had put in became worthless and someone could spend a week doing what they took a long time doing.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

I asked him in /tell instead of berating him in /p chat which I could have and should have done. Instead I choose to find out if he was having issues in private.

In this case YES I have more then a right to be a little pissed! When a CAPPED player comes to END GAME and doesn't know even the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of their JOB something is seriously WRONG! I basically then have to use up more of my anima to go back to town to shout for another player to fill his slot. Whom may or may not be even as bad as he was because picking up people in this game is like tip toeing a land mine of PL'd clueless gits. I can appreciate his lack of knowledge. Hell if I saw him out in the sand poking at goats I would give him a friendly hello, some useless advice, and a chunk of gil to start him off right. I was new too once and we all got to start somewhere. Finding him in my Mog party is not something that should even be possible.

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your are in a PUG expect to find not so experienced players. Man the f*** up and stop QQing it is common knowledge that PUGs have a high chance of failure and if you are blaming Esuna for that failure then I think you had 0% chance of success anyways

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Sorry, while I agree PLing is silly, this is 2012 and the EverQuest-era is over. Time to let go. Only a small niche of players enjoy the journey anymore evidenced by the countless number of "new" games that are released which are the exact same gameplay model and become rather successful.

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Sorry, this common misconception and MMO rumor is starting to bother the f**k out of me. Players will always love the leveling journey if it is presented in an accessible and fun manner. People like it when they are able to log in and get at least something accomplished without having the same monotonous leveling style from level 1 all the way to the cap.

FFXI and FFXIV's models of straight up grinding mobs makes their journeys one of the least desirable ones in MMO gaming, and it's the number one reason why PLing is so pervasive now. PLing existed in WOW for a very long time, but it's not a problem because Blizzard invested so many resources into making leveling fun, that people who get PLed actually miss out on fun content, lore, and the game's experience.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Sorry, this common misconception and MMO rumor is starting to bother the f**k out of me. Players will always love the leveling journey if it is presented in an accessible and fun manner. People like it when they are able to log in and get at least something accomplished without having the same monotonous leveling style from level 1 all the way to the cap.

FFXI and FFXIV's models of straight up grinding mobs makes their journeys one of the least desirable ones in MMO gaming, and it's the number one reason why PLing is so pervasive now. PLing existed in WOW for a very long time, but it's not a problem because Blizzard invested so many resources into making leveling fun, that people who get PLed actually miss out on fun content, lore, and the game's experience.

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^^^ Very much this, anyone that finds leveling in FFXIV fun must hate themselves.

Wise words Vaer but this is what I cannot work out.

They know they had a faithful client base in FFXI. Proven numbers and accounts which remained active for YEARS on end without breaks. Why not create a similar atmosphere for the new game? All but ensure they retain the previous player base from FFXI while still netting those willing to shoulder the difficulty in this new generation? Surely everyone born after 1990 can't ALL be uninterested in an MMO which pushes back.

Instead of trying to compete with every other MMO which hand holds their customers to the end of the game and gives them a yellow sticker of mediocrity develop a harsh unforgiving world which only the crazy and stubborn survive? Sure you'll never reach the numbers that WoW has but then again, no one ever will. Surely they realized once Abbesea hit players started dropping like flies. All their loyal previous subscribers just up and quit once content that had taken them years to finish were being blasted away by Month old's.

FFXI is beating the ever living PANTS out of FFXIV numbers wise as it is. Risking the gambit again in 2.0 to 'appeal to a wider audience' seems like putting a smoking revolver back in your mouth because there is no WAY you could get two bullets back to back when playing Russian Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

^^^ Very much this, anyone that finds leveling in FFXIV fun must hate themselves.

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yeah, compared to sitting on a chocobo for days on end doing absolutely nothing is so much fun in itself. i will say i have more fun killing mobs than i do sitting on a chocobo watching someone else kill the mob for me.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

FFXI and FFXIV's models of straight up grinding mobs makes their journeys one of the least desirable ones in MMO gaming, and it's the number one reason why PLing is so pervasive now. PLing existed in WOW for a very long time, but it's not a problem because Blizzard invested so many resources into making leveling fun, that people who get PLed actually miss out on fun content, lore, and the game's experience.

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Holy. Finally a post with some intelligent and facts in it.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

yeah, compared to sitting on a chocobo for days on end doing absolutely nothing is so much fun in itself. i will say i have more fun killing mobs than i do sitting on a chocobo watching someone else kill the mob for me.

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The difference is that sitting on a chocobo and watching someone kill things for me takes a few days as opposed to a few weeks, and I can do other things that are not FFXIV in the mean time. You really are out to fulfill that lowest IQ thing, aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I gotta ask you guys, why is it that you guys are such sticks in the mud about people not being experienced, instead of simply trying to teach them? I have played multiple MMOs, and I can count on my hands the number of occasions that I ran into people who outright refused to learn.

He's playing poorly and you ask him if he's drunk? Seriously? Do you have any idea how much of a douche you sound like when you say something like that? Approaching someone in an accusing manner and foaming at the mouth is the fastest way to make sure your group turns to s**t.

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THANKYOU! For me, it was the lack of able to get a Dungeon party together that made me nooby at tricks, good example is PoM>Raise & SP>Stoneskin/Protect etc which I only learned by seeing others do this and L1-45 there is a good chance you can miss the opportunity until you are only L50 on your first dungeons, not the players fault IMO.

As for PLing, I don't mind it, if you can't cope with people who do it, blacklist them, they obviously want a very different game to you and its best that EG elitists just stick to their own elitist ways and look down on the rest who don't go through the game the same way you did, best way is to teach people if you see they arent fulfilling their job.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Surely they realized once Abbesea hit players started dropping like flies. All their loyal previous subscribers just up and quit once content that had taken them years to finish were being blasted away by Month old's.

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/sarcasm on

this excuse has been shown to be false. nobody left a game because the leveling speed was increased and accomplishments became worthless. it's bs to think anyone would leave a game when they worked on something for a year and then someone else came in and could do it in weeks-months. that just does not happen according to some in this thread.

/sarcasm off

I would say that this is not just an issue with PL, but with the structure of the game.

Me and my brother play casually, and we both duo'd guildleves to 50. Now we are starting to do 'real' stuff but we are somewhat clueless as to what we are supposed to do and we mess up, and feel bad for it too >_>

In other games (like XI) you had to party up, and there things you learned just by parting. Guildeves are just not complex enough to show you how to actually do your job properly.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

yeah, compared to sitting on a chocobo for days on end doing absolutely nothing is so much fun in itself. i will say i have more fun killing mobs than i do sitting on a chocobo watching someone else kill the mob for me.

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What Wolfie said

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

The difference is that sitting on a chocobo and watching someone kill things for me takes a few days as opposed to a few weeks, and I can do other things that are not FFXIV in the mean time. You really are out to fulfill that lowest IQ thing, aren't you?

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weeks? when was the last time you leveled a class?

it takes a few hours to go from 40-50 and that is over 50% of your sp needed to cap a class from scratch.

at least i do know one thing. as long as you are on the forums i will never have the title of the lowest here.