Somebody needs to sit Yoko down....

......and explain to him that internet latency is a thing.

Seriously.

Some of the attacks in Puppets' Factory are just too cheap and don't belong in FFXIV. It's not a Savage Raid, nor is it Extreme. It's an Alliance Raid, and while other past Alliance Raids pushed the boundaries some, I feel that none of them had attacks that were just nearly impossible to dodge if you had any sort of lag going on.

Moving the AoE markers constantly and then having them randomly stop in one patch and then 0.5s later the AoE happens is kinda stupid, and several times I was *NOT* in the AoE for a full second and I still got hit with said AoE. It really feels cheap and it's not fun to get hit with things that it really doesn't look like you should have gotten hit with. Add knockback and instant death from falling from some of these attacks, and it's just even more cheap.

Also, the High/Low Lasers on that one boss? WTF is up with that attack? You can tell what you're supposed to do but you can't actually do it because the two attacks overlap with zero gap in-between, guaranteeing you will take at least 1, maybe even 2 ticks of damage no matter what you do unlike other "shifting" AoEs in the game that several other bosses have.

I've only done the raid once but was able to pick up on the mechanics... probably my tank brain.. i like decoding the fights to teach my friends..

But anways.. the teleporting around is easy to track.. the first boss its always where the lines are over lapping as they thicken.. the tank like boss it always jumps to the 3rd aoe to appear.

With the high an low markers its that the lows hit all the way to the wall immediately where the highs do 3 attacks one close one medium and one far.. you go to the wall on the high an wait for thr first 2 attacks and before the 3rd attack the low lazer will end leaving you a safe spot.

The final boss shows where its going to attack by the energy thats going threw the lines.. so like it has 2 spots outside where its standing one will have energy going from it to one of the circles.. thats where its going..

The same for adds an other attacks in thr fight.. the energy will travel along the "wires" to the spot they are going.

Thias alliance raid is a nice difficulty with slightly more complex mechanics where you can't just look at an AoE marker and cast bar to dodge.
Just observe and learn from your failures and don't just run complaining when runs in the first week end in wipes and TPKs.

I don't recall any mechanics that would be more latency unfriendly than any other fight other than the orbs during the third fight, which were a bit annoying during the first raid as well. It's largely just mechanics without any standard tells.

So im gonna back up Maeka a little on this one. Im guessing you guys didnt have bad lag during your runs. My run on tuesday was brutal. Yes, i was expecting brutal since we had a 20/24 new player run(and the other 4 werent explaining things - at least not over alliance chat, no idea what might have been said in group). But the lag, oh my god. I died once or twice per fight to the lag, it was so bad i disconnected during two of the bosses. Add to that dying to mechanics either not-yet learned, or picked up on too late to adjust and the fact that my healers would only sometimes give me a heal after casting the res(i would stand there next to them while my invincibility ran out, then die to the next roomwide attack) and i spent a lot of that first run on the floor. A friend asked me to join him on thursday, and that run had no lag issues. Made a ton of difference. Still not deathless, as i didnt get a fair shot to learn all the mechs the first time out, but a much better run. Interestingly, both runs wiped exactly once but not on the same boss.

I lagged during the AOE hallway for a whole minute on hotel wifi and didn't die. Which was surprising.

I'd like to see the development meeting room because I just know Taro is being told "no" for plenty of ideas that would be impossible with latency in mind, but the signature mechanics in his own game are far better tailored to being single player.

Surprisingly, fights become more difficult when you're lagging. I don't think that's a design flaw.

(1) Yoko didnt make the fights or have any real say in them, yoshida had to clarify this when ppl thought this. This is the normal battle team making all fights/mechanics.
Only story bits/characters/3dmodels are something yoko is having any say in.

(2) Theres a difference between slightly consistent bad latency, and straight up server/internet coming to a complete stop for a minute (bad lag). Some ppl are jumping between one extreme or the other, as if they were interchangeable for the debate.

(3) There is always some trick, to help u figure it out the mechanic quicker, and sometimes u may not realize what that trick is for a week or longer. (This includes knowing to pop sprint BEFORE the actually ability goes off, and finding a middleground where you know u can reach all possible safespots once they appear. Even some of my savage friends refuse to pop sprint early, and just pop sprint once the safe spot is visible, and hope to make it. curse you guys)

Only issue I have is the first boss tends to have a little lag for like the first minute, and animations are not matching actions despite them going off correctly. Copied Factory has the same problem on the first boss, so could be something in the coding specifically for the Nier raids that makes it so that happens at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Also, the High/Low Lasers on that one boss? WTF is up with that attack? You can tell what you're supposed to do but you can't actually do it because the two attacks overlap with zero gap in-between, guaranteeing you will take at least 1, maybe even 2 ticks of damage no matter what you do unlike other "shifting" AoEs in the game that several other bosses have.

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High lasers shoot 3 times at close, medium and far range. Go far, then go to the low lasers.

The raid is generally pretty bad, full of cheap jebait mechanics. But latency shouldn't be a problem.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

The raid is generally pretty bad, full of cheap jebait mechanics.

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And here I was thinking players in this game liked a challenge and wanted content to be less brain dead. Funny how people react when they get what they asked for.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

And here I was thinking players in this game liked a challenge and wanted content to be less brain dead. Funny how people react when they get what they asked for.

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You own those elitists, ahhh you really got em lol.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You own those elitists, ahhh you really got em lol.

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I'm not talking about any one group in particular, people on the forums just generally complain that the game is too easy as it is, yadda yadda, but now that they can't immediately breeze through it, it's no longer desirable.

You can't deny that's the mindset that inhabits these forums and possibly other places where people speak about the game. I was merely pointing something out. Relax.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I'm not talking about any one group in particular, people on the forums just generally complain that the game is too easy as it is, yadda yadda, but now that they can't immediately breeze through it, it's no longer desirable.

You can't deny that's the mindset that inhabits these forums and possibly other places where people speak about the game. I was merely pointing something out. Relax.

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Dude, you are just hilarious. If your brush is wide enough, you'll always be right. Keep on rocking man, I'm cheering for you.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Dude, you are just hilarious. If your brush is wide enough, you'll always be right. Keep on rocking man, I'm cheering for you.

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I think you're replying in the wrong thread or something, what you're saying isn't making any sense.

Ironically, Yoshi P said during the Live Letter that the team had to nerf the raid during testing. When Yoko Taro tried the raid, he wanted it even tougher then the previous version. >w>

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I'm not talking about any one group in particular, people on the forums just generally complain that the game is too easy as it is, yadda yadda, but now that they can't immediately breeze through it, it's no longer desirable.

You can't deny that's the mindset that inhabits these forums and possibly other places where people speak about the game. I was merely pointing something out. Relax.

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Though I'm on the side of "it's too easy" you realize the forum isn't a hivemind right? There are people on both sides of the argument, so it's less "The players can't make up their mind" and more "There's two clashing viewpoints".

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Though I'm on the side of "it's too easy" you realize the forum isn't a hivemind right? There are people on both sides of the argument, so it's less "The players can't make up their mind" and more "There's two clashing viewpoints".

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This so much. Literally 2 of the top 4 threads on this forum as i type this are "Increase Difficulty of Dungeons" and "Seat of Sacrifice is far too overtuned". Not started by the same person, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

And here I was thinking players in this game liked a challenge and wanted content to be less brain dead. Funny how people react when they get what they asked for.

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Cheap jebait mechanics are not a challenge.

There is no punishment in these fights other than the "gimmick" mechanic. It's why 5 people who understand the mechanic after seeing it once or twice can recover the entire raid and one-shot every boss on day 0.

And it will be the reason why this raid will be a complete faceroll from week 2 onwards.

None of the mechanics are that cheap though. They all have a logic behind them

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Cheap jebait mechanics are not a challenge.

There is no punishment in these fights other than the "gimmick" mechanic. It's why 5 people who understand the mechanic after seeing it once or twice can recover the entire raid and one-shot every boss on day 0.

And it will be the reason why this raid will be a complete faceroll from week 2 onwards.

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Could you actually say what mechanic are "cheap jebaits", exactly? Which mechanics exactly are unreactable or fake you out consistently in a way that you can't possibly predict?

The only real trick ones I remember are the ones during the final boss where the tells aren't concrete on a first viewing to know where the safety is going to be. Like Laserwhatever Decapitation. It's a donut AOE, but to me it looked like the first time that the draw in of the lasergun spindles were going to blow back the way they'd just drawn over the room.

So I guess what they mean by, "jebaited" whatever the heck that actually means is mechanics that you only get wrong once, due to ignorance on what their tell means/is.

I thought this was a lot easier than Copied factory. I have had zero wipes/abandons on Puppet's Bunker so far. I didn't find many of the fights that interesting either even as a NieR fan it felt pretty boring.

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

Could you actually say what mechanic are "cheap jebaits", exactly? Which mechanics exactly are unreactable or fake you out consistently in a way that you can't possibly predict?

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Each of them has this one gimmick:

2nd boss - Swords. You don't notice the swords? There's no way you're reacting. You notice the swords? Welp, the sword mechanic is the entire fight.
3rd boss - Screens. You don't notice the screens? You have no chance to react to the pods. You notice the screens? Welp, the screens are the entire fight.
4th boss - Tether teleport. You don't notice which tether shows the teleport? You have no chance to react. You notice the pulsing tether? Welp, the tether is the entire fight.

Something more related to the OP: The lasers are low or high. Your intuition says low tethers shoot close, high tethers shoot far. Nope, jebaited.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

So I guess what they mean by, "jebaited" whatever the heck that actually means is mechanics that you only get wrong once, due to ignorance on what their tell means/is.

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Pretty much. Punishing mechanics that rely on obscure tells to kill a bunch of people. Meanwhile, the more standard mechanics are not punishing at all. The first time you do the fight, you lose half the raid to these mechanics. The second time, the fight is trivial because it relies competely on said obscure tells.

Because of this, you can go down to 5 people and recover back to 24 and still one-shot each of these bosses on a day 0 blind run. Give it a week and these fights will be an easy faceroll in random pugs.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Each of them has this one gimmick:

2nd boss - Swords. You don't notice the swords? There's no way you're reacting. You notice the swords? Welp, the sword mechanic is the entire fight.
3rd boss - Screens. You don't notice the screens? You have no chance to react to the pods. You notice the screens? Welp, the screens are the entire fight.
4th boss - Tether teleport. You don't notice which tether shows the teleport? You have no chance to react. You notice the pulsing tether? Welp, the tether is the entire fight.

Something more related to the OP: The lasers are low or high. Your intuition says low tethers shoot close, high tethers shoot far. Nope, jebaited.

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Well, that's even less reasonable than I'd expected so thanks for that, I guess. This describes every single mechanic in the game to the point that I'm genuinely baffled - don't notice how the mirrors work in Shiva, how the portals work on Idol of Darkness, how the elements work on the new story trial? Parsing a core mechanic and seeing it get extrapolated into more complex situations is the entire game. There's a reason that all 3 of the mechanics you named start with a low stress version; you get the swords in the triangle formation before the more dangerous centre dashes, the screens appear above the pods in the easy safe spot version before the more complex one, and the final boss starts with a simple variation where there are only two tethers before it gets paired with other mechanics. These aren't "obscure tells", they're new mechanics that people seem to be mad they didn't figure out, I guess? How are you expecting content that isn't just the same 3 recycled mechanics if you consider "having to look at a screen" a step too far for you?

Also, same applies to the lasers. I didn't even figure out the low/high thing, I just... stood in between where two sets would appear and adjusted after the first set. Didn't get hit a single time.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

I thought this was a lot easier than Copied factory. I have had zero wipes/abandons on Puppet's Bunker so far. I didn't find many of the fights that interesting either even as a NieR fan it felt pretty boring.

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Interesting, I actually feel the complete opposite way. I found the Puppet's Bunker to be significantly more interesting than Copied Factory. Granted it still looks like Nier which doesn't make for very mesmerizing environment design but it's certainly a step up from dilapidated office buildings and 50 shades of grey in grey. The bosses atleast have some interesting gimmicks where you need to pay attention, in Copied Factory the challenge from day 1 for me was to not fall asleep due to the mechanics being so forgiving that wiping was actually the most difficult part of it.


I do admit that I am biased against the whole Nier raid though. It's not that I dislike Nier itself but the 24man raids that were based in Final Fantasy in some form or another were just a lot more interesting visually than grey robots with grey arenas and grey walls in the background and a lot more interesting when it comes to expanding the game's lore.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

None of the mechanics are that cheap though. They all have a logic behind them

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That's a lot to ask and be understood by a good chunk of players.

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

Well, that's even less reasonable than I'd expected so thanks for that, I guess. This describes every single mechanic in the game to the point that I'm genuinely baffled - don't notice how the mirrors work in Shiva, how the portals work on Idol of Darkness, how the elements work on the new story trial? Parsing a core mechanic and seeing it get extrapolated into more complex situations is the entire game. There's a reason that all 3 of the mechanics you named start with a low stress version; you get the swords in the triangle formation before the more dangerous centre dashes, the screens appear above the pods in the easy safe spot version before the more complex one, and the final boss starts with a simple variation where there are only two tethers before it gets paired with other mechanics. These aren't "obscure tells", they're new mechanics that people seem to be mad they didn't figure out, I guess? How are you expecting content that isn't just the same 3 recycled mechanics if you consider "having to look at a screen" a step too far for you?

Also, same applies to the lasers. I didn't even figure out the low/high thing, I just... stood in between where two sets would appear and adjusted after the first set. Didn't get hit a single time.

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It absolutely does not describe every mechanic in the game.

Shiva mirrors are intuitive. She spawns mirrors. She does mechanic. Mirrors will do same mechanic.
Portals are intuitive. Shoots things in portals. Things come out of portals.
Elements are intuitive. Blizzard freezes, fire burns. Pyretic might not be expected, but people have previous experience with these mechanics.

Most people will intuit these.

Center sword dashes are actually intuitive because the fight makes you dodge the circles and forces you to look towards the robots pulling swords. Triangle is not.
There's nothing about a pulsing tether that means "destination" - it could very well be a massive explosion. Clearly she's gonna teleport. But one baits you into a one-shot.

You didn't figure out the low/high laser thing because there is no way to. There is nothing about those lasers that is intuitive. Either you get lucky, react fast enough to not die, or die. Then you know how it works and you never get hit by it again.

To clarify, I don't think it's all bad. The thing I think is bad is that the entire so-called "difficulty" of these fights relies entirely on these one-shots. Just do it again this week and you'll see what I mean.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

It absolutely does not describe every mechanic in the game.

Shiva mirrors are intuitive. She spawns mirrors. She does mechanic. Mirrors will do same mechanic.
Portals are intuitive. Shoots things in portals. Things come out of portals.
Elements are intuitive. Blizzard freezes, fire burns. Pyretic might not be expected, but people have previous experience with these mechanics.

Most people will intuit these.

Center sword dashes are actually intuitive because the fight makes you dodge the circles and forces you to look towards the robots pulling swords. Triangle is not.
There's nothing about a pulsing tether that means "destination" - it could very well be a massive explosion. Clearly she's gonna teleport. But one baits you into a one-shot.

You didn't figure out the low/high laser thing because there is no way to. There is nothing about those lasers that is intuitive. Either you get lucky, react fast enough to not die, or die. Then you know how it works and you never get hit by it again.

To clarify, I don't think it's all bad. The thing I think is bad is that the entire so-called "difficulty" of these fights relies entirely on these one-shots. Just do it again this week and you'll see what I mean.

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Not everything has to be intuitive. It just needs a tell and you have to find out what the tell is. For Shiva the tell for the mirrors is their color and for the high/low lasers it is the high/low. You have to find out how the tell works and how the rest of the mechanic interacts with that.
A mechanic you have to fail to start understand it and its tells is not a bad mechanic it's just more complicated and not braindead.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Not everything has to be intuitive. It just needs a tell and you have to find out what the tell is. For Shiva the tell for the mirrors is their color and for the high/low lasers it is the high/low. You have to find out how the tell works and how the rest of the mechanic interacts with that.
A mechanic you have to fail to start understand it and its tells is not a bad mechanic it's just more complicated and not braindead.

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In the developer side content, that is sadly ignored, how they design battles has been explained, and I'm positive this was said in the Making of Shadowbringers video. It was not word for word, but it was the outline. Either the battle design video or it was during a Live Letter interview. But you can still figure it out by playing the game. You fail, you figure out what it is you didn't see. Like Suzaku's birb.

It reminds me a lot of Shin Megami Tensei games (not Persona) where you'll get slapped hard if you don't learn what the boss' weakness is, or how to counter their spells. Remember what to look out for, and you're fine.
Except every trash enemy hits like a boss.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

I thought this was a lot easier than Copied factory. I have had zero wipes/abandons on Puppet's Bunker so far. I didn't find many of the fights that interesting either even as a NieR fan it felt pretty boring.

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I found the exact opposite and this was harder than Copied Factory. Factory mechanics were all easy to figure out blind. Bunker has a few that aren't too straightforward (but seem easy once you do realize the trick). I still don't feel I have every Bunker mechanic figured out for certain.

Still not "too hard" by any means. I think player expectations have become a bit warped by how any content below EX is viewed as a faceroll free win. They expect a one-shot run with easy mechanics and become frustrated when they can't seem to figure it out. It's absolutely normal to die week one in here. I've been seeing plenty of Savage players getting wrecked by all sorts of mechanics in both Bunker and the new Trial on Normal.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Still not "too hard" by any means. I think player expectations have become a bit warped by how any content below EX is viewed as a faceroll free win. They expect a one-shot run with easy mechanics and become frustrated when they can't seem to figure it out. It's absolutely normal to die week one in here. I've been seeing plenty of Savage players getting wrecked by all sorts of mechanics in both Bunker and the new Trial on Normal.

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That's because if they don't get their easy 1shot they complain until SE changes it, just look at Orbonne Monastery. You can not convince me that the Thunder God was in any way more difficult than the 2nd, 3rd or 4th boss in the Puppet's Bunker.

My very first run on release night we cleared with no actual full wipes. LOTS of people died. LOTS of resses were needed. However every mechanic is obvious once you've died to it once.. and realistically dying is a MINOR setback at worst. You have at least 2, probably more resurrections in your party, quick travel teleports and plenty of time to complete the encounters.

Getting all fusfusted because omg you died to a mechanic once is silly. That's how a dungeon is figured out. You don't wanna die ever? Wait (I think it was 8 hours) and someone will have posted a tutorial online you can watch.

It's part of the fun of the new runs to learn mechanics together and that moment of "BLAM!" *alliance dead* "Uh... so don't stand there" is one of my favorite parts of new instances.

It's been the practice for years that the first parties to complete dungeons need to learn the "science" by throwing bodies at it. Considering there is next to no punishment for dying in this game.. what is the complaint?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's because if they don't get their easy 1shot they complain until SE changes it, just look at Orbonne Monastery. You can not convince me that the Thunder God was in any way more difficult than the 2nd, 3rd or 4th boss in the Puppet's Bunker.

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I mean it kinda was just because multiple mechanics were lethal to more than just the person messing up. There were at least two mechanics that could cripple/wipe the whole raid if handled wrong. Namely the dark balls and the stack pads. If either of those mechanics were handled wrong, the entire raid suffers. In Puppets Bunker, I can't really think of any mechanic that's likely to destroy the entire raid if only one person messes up aside from maybe the tank buster lasers on fight 3 if the tank decides to face it towards the group.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

The raid is generally pretty bad, full of cheap jebait mechanics. But latency shouldn't be a problem.

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Honestly this. They're mostly just less intuitive recopies of old, oft-disliked mechanics, making for some oddly dull fights for all the raid series' hype. But at no point will latency cost you the ability to dodge them.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

I mean it kinda was just because multiple mechanics were lethal to more than just the person messing up. There were at least two mechanics that could cripple/wipe the whole raid if handled wrong. Namely the dark balls and the stack pads. If either of those mechanics were handled wrong, the entire raid suffers.

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Yes they do punish the whole raid but they're so incredibly simple and easy to understand that you really should only wipe to them once if people actually pay attention. Wiping once in a 24man is not that big of a deal that it required to be nerfed into the ground to the point where people can completely mess these two mechanics up and you're still perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Yes they do punish the whole raid but they're so incredibly simple and easy to understand that you really should only wipe to them once if people actually pay attention. Wiping once in a 24man is not that big of a deal that it required to be nerfed into the ground to the point where people can completely mess these two mechanics up and you're still perfectly fine.

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Oh sure, I was sad that they nerfed thundergod. But it is a more deadly fight than anything in the current tier. Not that the current tier is boring IMO.