So the new drama is FF14 players are very hostile in our maid outfits and frog costumes at end game to new people suggesting ideas. If that new person suggest that bard seems slow or FF14 needs to content in between Savage and Extreme hey I am right there with you.
Where you lose me is this comment "we just need to get rid of all this story stuff and just unlock everything. Guess what it is an mmoRPGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Hate the story then hit esc and click through and have fun. The leveling is stupid easy and quick or hand over $7 bucks. Want to know what is going to happen is everyone that says man ARR sucks but Heavenward is great is going to make new people skip all of ARR under the false assumption everything in ARR is horrible.
Want to know another MMO that does not require you to unlock anything and no longer feels like an RPG to the point they are literally about to force people to RPG with massive consequences to your class in their latest expansion? World of Warcraft
There was a time where you had to get keys to unlock dungeons and raids. You were not going in until someone went through the long quest line to open that raid and you know what that felt like a damn RPG. What do you now? Queue go in get out and do not know no anything about the dungeon you are in or what is going on.
I am cool with HUNDREDSSS of other suggestions but I do not go into other games with core systems that literal make the game unique and tell the devs to change it then not expect to get stomped on by the player base. It is beyond aggravating that FF14 are scared to defend this because people heard FF14 has great end game and now only want to experience that.
This crying and whining about how mean FF14 people are to new suggestions is simply not true and a lie. People are defending core aspects of a FINAL FANTASY game and that is story.
TL'Dr: Don't like story then hit the escape button.
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08-08-2020, 01:13 AMPuremallaceFF14 players need to draw a line in the sand or watch the RPG get destroyed
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08-08-2020, 01:23 AMRoda
A little forceful, but I ultimately agree with your points.
I don't play an mmorpg to lobby queue my way to The Big Number. I play them to get immersed, to get to know characters and the world they live in, and I want to interact with the world and these characters in meaningful ways. The fun combat and compelling engame mechanics are a bonus. :P -
08-08-2020, 01:26 AMPuremallace
Like I said I can name so much stuff I would like that does not just dump on the literal point of the game. I get people heard TEA is super awesome and are super elite pro players from the MMO world but cool it is still a game that exist for people besides you. Every single time I have seen an MMO no matter what it is throw out what makes it special under the delusion of "making the game more accessible" it has become bland as people get bored.
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08-08-2020, 01:27 AMVahlnir
I mean, the dev team has shown little to no sign of changing course with their overall design so I don't see how this is an issue?
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08-08-2020, 01:33 AMlinayarIt's probably not an issue now, but I think if people keep quiet, there is valid cause for concern that the devs will eventually think the community has changed and simply want to go straight to instanced content and may change the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlnir
I suppose the point is just to make sure to voice your opinion if you support the current role of story quests in the game any time there is a call to change it. -
08-08-2020, 01:36 AMSaix027
Can't agree even more, most MMO's have the problem in my eyes being endgame focused so leveling is boring same for stories and countless sidequests that not impact anything or give info about any.
I blame dungeons in general, this whole queuing in generla needs to stop, i look at GW2, sure not much endcontent as well but i can play whenever i want, the world is the adventure, the world is full of people, rarely you see completly empty maps.
I mean i cry always a little that so much work flows in maps for people to only skip them and forget them, in GW2 i keep finding new thigns since it makes you explore, most other MMO's simply have it as grind to level, boring and long.
Everything can tell a good story, not just the mainquest, it just needs to be good implanted, not just some dailys, i simply miss actually the content we goten with like the relic weapons, sending you in older maps, then we goten Eurika which i never entered till today, a content island to grind the same boring Fates over and over, with other relics there is at least variety and traveling partly.
And yes GW2 also has events/fates. but they differ so much in what you can do, not just collect or slay. I point to one of the latest maps, Icebrood Saga, a goddamn metal concert with so many events in it mixed and it is just fun, here or other MMO's? Done one event, you done them all.
Don't get me wrong, i love the story here but the gamepaly i can see why people can complain, most classes are sadly boring under lvl 50 or higher, the levelign down of skills is simply problematic when you suddenly can only spawn one attack. The dungeons and experience needs a heavy rework, i can see how it turns people off, not just shorten the filler quests between ARR and HW. -
08-08-2020, 01:36 AMphantomr23
Literally who is suggesting that we get rid of the story? I have not seen a single person mention this and if anyone has I suspect they were rightfully ridiculed. Your weird vendetta against endgame raiders doesn't really work because uh, a lot of us really like this game's story too?
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08-08-2020, 01:38 AMVahlnirYeah, I haven't seen this either, at least not recently. At most I've seen some (and a very small number at that) ask for the story to be optional. But that, too, has been awhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomr23
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08-08-2020, 01:41 AMlinayarMaybe not get rid of the story, but people have asked to make story optional in terms of unlocking instanced content. Some want it like WoW where you just need to reach the appropriate level to be able to queue to a dungeon/raid. It can cause problem, like if you want to have a story to go to a dungeon but gets it in a roulette because you're at the appropriate level for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomr23
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08-08-2020, 01:43 AMGoji1639
I think this game could use a much larger variety of progression content, and I do think part of the reason why we don't get it is SE's need to add a ton of exposition to everything.
I enjoy the story content, but I think SE could add more progression content for smaller groups or even individuals if they didn't try to build 3 hours of story around everything they release. -
08-08-2020, 01:44 AMRodaI mean I've been watching the trend as the genre matured. Going from "you're in this world now, figure your stuff out" to "you are the chosen one, only you alone can defeat the big bad evil guy at max level! (never mind those other 100k people)" to "ok you're x level, just open up your dungeon finder and run what's available to you until you get to y level, then grind the next dungeons to get to the point you think you're done grinding for gear or mounts or whatever"Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
It went from developers wanting to be the worlds biggest DM for their online roleplaying game, to developers wanting to make a capital G Game (feels more like a very complex board game or card game than it does a collaborative storytelling game).
You know when Miazaki criticised the anime industry for only animating their idea of anime instead of using anime to depict "real" experiences? That's how I feel with MMOs right now.
People like to rag on GW2 but it's honestly doing the MMO feel better than anyone right now. (I just wish Anet can figure out their systems and how to write a compelling story DX)Quote:
Originally Posted by Saix027
Maps 3x the size of XIV maps, with more density in detail than ARR maps, more meaningful world interactions, environmental storytelling. Ugh it's just great. *chef's kiss*
Plus i'm in love with the fact that they pretty much did Bozja before XIV and I KNOW it's going to be better of an experience and more in depth than whatever "safe" content xiv's going to churn out
I really REALLY hope that SE would learn to look at GW2's open-world storytelling and just freaking steal every trick they use. 'Cause XIV really feels like I'm being plopped from mob cluster to mob cluster to kill things whose only purpose is to die by my hand instead of a living breathing world that wouldn't look uncanny if no one is engaging with the content. (the steppe shows this real bad in its monster placement. Just clusters of mobs doing NOTHING.) -
08-08-2020, 01:45 AMPuremallaceI 100% agree that maybe in another 1 or 2 expansions then they will need to make going from 1-100 or whatever easier and getting through probably 600+ story quest easier but FF14 is in its 3rd expansion and people want to gut the fundamental game because they heard the end game is cool now and they are bored in their main game.Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
It is incredibly selfish to not understand where people are coming from when they defend this game. I can name so much that could improve the game but I refuse to see the RPG gutted from another MMO for convenience sake.
It is out of the community drama started by people who are bored of a particular MMO right now who see FF14 end game might have something to offer but now want to rush to the end to damn with the consequences of people who will play this game after they leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomr23
There is this perception growing that FF14 are mean and super rude to anyone who suggest any changes at all to the game. It is a silly concept that needs to die now because the community here has been very nice and the forums prove people will complain for changes about everything and do not think this is the most perfect MMO ever created and should never change. -
08-08-2020, 02:09 AMlinayarI feel like a collaborative storytelling doesn't work unless the collaboration is mandatory. It's the fact that single player experience is given that we're in this state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roda
That said, since we are in this state, that doesn't mean story should be ignored either. I'm fine with decoupling story with game play experience (assuming the story is still mandatory) as long as the game doesn't turn around and try to use lore/story reason to try to explain game restriction that acts like the story/lore can't change. That's why I enjoy using TRUST as a first playthrough story experience, and then grouping with other players for the gameplay grind that's separate from the story.
A bad way to do the story-gameplay relationship is WoW where story is optional, but lore is so important that you need to restrict race-class combination. Of course, forgetting that lore can change to remove these restrictions.
Actually, with New Game+, I feel that they can move the timeline forward and start new players at a later date while still allowing them to go back and experience the "prequel." That would shorten the catch up experience for new players without messing with the story too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puremallace
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08-08-2020, 02:25 AMPyurBlue
If anything FF14's story is one of the things that I've always felt is a bit out of place for an RPG. It's totally linear and it doesn't really connect with the multiplayer side of the game. I'd much prefer something open ended where your particular character isn't special by default. Despite that I agree that it's silly to ask for an established part of the game to scrapped, although I don't think the MSQ being required to unlock near everything in the game does any good.
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08-08-2020, 02:40 AMphantomr23Hm, see I don't necessarily see that as too unreasonable? As somebody who very much adores the story of this game it certainly hurts, but it's not like somebody who wouldn't have paid attention otherwise will suddenly love the story because it's mandatory. If you want to skip the story you will, whether through paid skips or just the good ol' escape key - having an option for those players to get straight to the content they want would never happen but I don't actually think it's a totally ridiculous suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
(It'll never happen because it's antithetical to the game's design - the FFXIV team very clearly considers it a story based MMO with the endgame content as a supplement to that.) -
08-08-2020, 02:46 AMRodaYeah the power creep in the story was what did it for me. In ARR, you pretty much assumed almost every adventurer had the echo and maybe they were contacted by the scions too and we were all equal in doing rad things (asside from YOUR character being best friends with the main characters and all the stuff that came from that). The warriors of light were all the characters at cartenau, and then it was the characters who brought an end to the ubral era (lmao). But now we've traveled to an alternate universe and we're literally God's favorite catgirl who was apparently a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON in a past life... It makes it hard to imagine other players are having their own stories unique to them that are just as fantastical. :TQuote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
It's honestly the most depressing trend to see catch on to mmos. :( -
08-08-2020, 03:10 AMPuremallaceThis is a legit thing. Add more multiplayer references into the RPG part of the game. What a lot of people see happen is developers start to think end game is the only content and gut the leveling experience to only be there as a huge inconvenience making it meaningless.Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
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08-08-2020, 03:21 AMPentheaI feel like if you want a game to be like WoW...then play WoW?Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
Most cutscenes in the game can be skipped and the two dungeons that have unskippable cutscenes have their own roulette specific to them so you can easily entirely avoid repeating them if you want to.
Not saying that this game should not take elements from other games but a lot of people seem to forget or not realise what a Final Fantasy game is. That series is known for being very story driven and this game is no different. The story isn't going anywhere.
If a person hates the story so much that they cannot stand that content is locked behind story dungeons and trials then maybe this game is simply not for them. And I would say the same to anyone who wants WoW to have something like FFXIV's msq. They're different games. Expect different core features. -
08-08-2020, 03:22 AMthegreatonemalPeople have had this sentiment since HW and the devs have never changed so no they aren't gonna assume the overall community has changed and all of a sudden get rid of the story or take away more causal content to make hardcore raiding content.Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
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08-08-2020, 03:27 AMArbaid
"Endgame" is the bane of MMOs across the piece. But it's an inevitable consequence of progression, when there's no way that progress can ever be lost or eroded. But nowadays, the only concept people have of what an RPG is tinvolves "getting to levelcap" with varying amounts of storyfluff surrounding the route to that anticipated nirvana. RPG no longer means what it used to. "Role" means "Tank, DPS or Healer": your "job" in the game. Story, however well-realised, is done and gone, the first time you do the last climactic cut scene. After that, you're just stirring pixels and goofing around with your pals for the most part.
So that's what people expect to be doing. The "level grind" is just a means to the end of "gearing up for endgame raids", and even if taken at a legible pace, will only occupy a small percentage of the career of a single character, since the story is finite, but the "end game experience" seems to be amenable to infinite repetitiveness. However, adding more numbers and shiny looks is far, far easier and cheaper for development houses to do than create comprehensively varied stories that will keep your paying customer satisfied for as long as the good old endgame hamster wheel seems to be able to for many. That effort would take the budget and resources of a major production studio, or several, of the kind which produce TV programming (but with a slightly different focus at the technical/performance end). And the demographic isn't large/wealthy enough to support that.
So what does it matter if there's a "go straight to the end game. Do not bother with the story. Collect one set of gear." option? So long as the story is there for those who are here for it, and there are enough of them for the producer to justify the expense of producing it to their CFO, the story will remain. So less "line in the sand" and more "cheerlead for the story", no? -
08-08-2020, 03:59 AMCrushnight
I highly doubt that they are going to change how the MSQ is structured to unlock content, they get routinely praised for MSQ and it is one of the things that separates FFXIV from its competitors, I doubt they would give that praise up.
The quest they showed off as being removed from MSQ is the filler in North Shroud (the npcs never show up again, Adders are already doing an investigation on the dead bodies so they can easily be used to just request the scion's aid) all in all about 4 quests were cut with the only downside very minor world building was lost(not even relevant to anything else in the area at the time).
However there is one thing I would like decoupled from the story mode version, savage, let the people who just wanna do savage jump straight into it without needing story mode, it is their choice at that point, it also allows players who are in statics to jump into it without potentially forcing 7 people to go through story mode because they couldn't get on until raid time etc. Story mode will still be there for them should they wish to know and depending on speed of static clearing still keep most bosses hidden. -
08-08-2020, 04:02 AMPuremallaceAlright lets see a scenario where a MSQ skip button is added in game for these people that literally want to clear a raid tier, log off then log back in 6 months for the new tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbaid
The problem is the button is there for everyone else. So if you get to a horrible part of ARR then that big button starts to look really appealing. I can name parts of every expansion where that big red button would seem very important. Also how far ahead in the MSQ does it skip you? The entire expansion? 10 levels and you just get dropped in a story that makes no sense?!?!?
It sounds like such a simple request but altering the game like that causes very long term changes to the entire leveling experience for people. ALSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO the MSQ is the main driver of why people even queue for instances so the poor bastards who choose not to skip all of a sudden get stuck in 1hr plus leveling queues. It breaks very fundamental parts about how the entire MMO is built.
I could easily see it being a required a feature 1 or 2 expansions into the future given the sheer length of the MSQ now + 4 more years of MSQ quest. This is a freight train headed towards FF14 that is going to collide one day so this critique is not invalid but asking that it be gutted so people can raid then quit until the next raid tier enrages me. -
08-08-2020, 04:17 AMVahlnirThe thing is, the option for people to skip is already available, granted it's for real money. You are acting as if it's not a thing already when it...you know, is. However, I'd wager that most people don't use it, at least not for their mains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puremallace
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08-08-2020, 04:23 AMGula
Play a FINAL FANTASY game, hate the story.
Because man, FF7's story totally sucked amirite? Who tf cares about the world of FF13 and it's sequels. I wanna get straight to the action just like my Nintendo games!
Don't need any budget for thematic music or translations. Just gimmie the action. -
08-08-2020, 04:30 AMVeis_AlveareIt enrages you that some people enjoy the game in a different fashion from how you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Puremallace
What's the word again? It starts with a T and ends in oxic? -
08-08-2020, 05:08 AMPuremallacePlay it however you want but understand the consequences of what some are asking. It is easy to make general suggestions without thinking through how it guts a core aspect of the game. I remember in World of Warcraft where it took a very long time to level and you read the story with friends and then people wanted to raid end game because "that was the real endgame".Quote:
Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare
I watched not just World of Warcraft but Rift and also Aion gut there games to appeal to these people. After you gutted that experience then it became a competition between MMO's of who has the better end game. Once you agree to take out large sections of your MMO to appeal to a small unloyal playerbase then the people who remain are stuck with those changes.
Like others have said it is a FF14 game and story has always been a big thing. It is LITERALLY equivalent to asking for a Star Wars game with no space combat. It is asking for an absolutely massive core fundamental change to the game.
If you gut out having to unlock the dungeons and raids like these people want then the game turns into a MMO where you never need to leave the city for much of anything. Next up it would be gutting Retainer leveling because that is also inconvenient then after that leveling up Chocobos because that is inconvenient for these hard core raiders.
One minor change to some people cascades through huge sections of the game that they can care less about because once they clear the current tier they are gone for 6 months.
We are also talking about something so stupid it makes no sense because clicking and hitting escape from 1-50 or whatever is insanely quick. If it were up to these people content would release with nothing other then new raids with zero story or anything but a new challenge to knock down then move on to complain in another MMO. -
08-08-2020, 07:36 AMHeyMcFly
First off, I agree with you- But most importantly; people in maid outfits & anything modern/ basic looking, frog costumes (except the rabbit costume bc you can actually make some really nice glams with the head pieces) have no sense of fashion & make me wish there was a hide all glamour options on everyone or blocking caused the player character to turn invisible so you'd never have to see their basic character again