Couldn't they just have removed Redraw?

Hello!

I was wondering... They have changed the old card system because they didn't like how players were fishing for Balance. And yes, it was an issue. But instead of removing the fishing for it, they just made every card Balance.

I don't know if it would even work, but if they had kept the old system, just tweaked it a bit, but removed Redraw, wouldn't that have been a better solution than changing what people actually liked?

I mean, they even could have changed Balance to something else and kept Divination as direct DPS buff, so you would still have "Balance" at fixed intervals for raid buffs. But other than that, you would have to use whichever card you get. If you got something you didn't want you could still use Minor Arcana on it (they could have tweaked its effect too because Lady was useless in some situations) or Royal Road.

What I would like to know though is if it would even work like this. Or would there be another problem I'm not thinking of?

(There are already an endless number on threads about AST cards, I know. But we can't have enough of them if only very few people like the new system.)

AST players whined too much that their card game involved some element of luck of the draw and that seems to be the main thing SQEX is responding to as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure the ASTs of last expansion would have enjoyed having less ways to manipulate their deck.

Yeah, making every card The Balance hasn't solving the fishing issue.

My suggestion instead was keep the old system and change the Minor Arcana to what it is in the new system, an 8% The Balance for a melee or ranged.

You find yourself in a situation you can use a card, Arcana it, you still get a decent buff out of it. Maybe remove redraw on top of that, or make it a single cast. So you're pushed more to try to make use of what you've got to the best advantage you can, rather than keep rolling the dice to get what you want.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

AST players whined too much that their card game involved some element of luck of the draw and that seems to be the main thing SQEX is responding to as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure the ASTs of last expansion would have enjoyed having less ways to manipulate their deck.

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Unfortunately, now you fish for Seals to get three different ones. Nothing has really changed in terms of that. Some of the people who defend the new system with the argument of RNG was mitigated is mistaken. The RNG is still there—it’s just moved.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Unfortunately, now you fish for Seals to get three different ones. Nothing has really changed in terms of that. Some of the people who defend the new system with the argument of RNG was mitigated is mistaken. The RNG is still there—it’s just moved.

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But it is mitigated.

Mitigated doesn't mean it's not there, it means you're not screwed for three spires in a row.

Yeah at least now, every card you draw is a gain. Having niche cards that you could only draw at random didn't make much sense. Balance was good 100% of time, Spear and Arrow were usually acceptable. The others were made nearly useless because you had to rely on luck to get them when you needed them.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it is mitigated.

Mitigated doesn't mean it's not there, it means you're not screwed for three spires in a row.

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Except now it’s very possible to get three sun seals in a row when you need a crescent moon. So I don’t see much difference there.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except now it’s very possible to get three sun seals in a row when you need a crescent moon. So I don’t see much difference there.

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Getting 3 seals in a row is a lot less detrimental to drawing the wrong cards the way things used to work.
The RNG can still screw you, but the effect of being screwed has been muted somewhat.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Getting 3 seals in a row is a lot less detrimental to drawing the wrong cards the way things used to work.
The RNG can still screw you, but the effect of being screwed has been muted somewhat.

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This is hence my suggestion.
No need to line up 3 different symbols
You get the diversity of the original system, where you get alternative use for cards.
Where you are not in a position to play a card, you still can and it will not be much of a loss.
And technically no reason to card fish, heck a single redraw would probably suffice.

So you'd still be able to do:
The Bole -> Royal Road -> Draw (Get The Arrow) -> Enhanced Arrow
The Spire -> Royal Road -> Draw (Get The Spear) -> Extended Spear
The Ewer -> Royal Road -> Draw (Get The Balance) -> Expanded Balance

If your luck isn't so great:
The Ewer -> Royal Road -> Draw (Get The Bole) -> Redraw (Get The Ewer) -> Lady of Crowns


Every card has a use/payoff.

Whilst getting 3 of the same symbol this time can still give a semi-useful buff, the end result is that you are still fishing and we've traded off variety to still get the same problem. There is a great advantage for making good use of the cards you have, but a fail scenario would still be a good buff and they'd be able to get away with reducing redraw to '1' or removing it completely.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Whilst getting 3 of the same symbol this time can still give a semi-useful buff, the end result is that you are still fishing and we've traded off variety to still get the same problem. There is a great advantage for making good use of the cards you have, but a fail scenario would still be a good buff and they'd be able to get away with reducing redraw to '1' or removing it completely.

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The variety was severely limited by random card draws though. The cards by themselves were better in the old system, but there wasn't really any more variety from the system as a whole, unless maybe you forced it. You could put Bole on a tank to help with a TB, but the tank would have survived without 90% of the time. Spread also largely dominated Royal Road, especially if you did 8+ content.

It just makes sense to move away from the RNG aspect of cards to me. That's what caused the most problems in my mind, but there are plenty of people with a different opinion that think of chance as being part of AST's identity. If the devs agree and won't remove the element of chance then I'd take your MA change, but I wouldn't want to give up redraw. I never thought of fishing as the root problem, it's a symptom of other problems.

As much as I would love for them to bring back the old system, they dug their grave with the new one. If they went back, all the new ASTs would complain about the cards not being consistent and that it's a lot RNG to deal with.

While yes, the new system is consistent damage-wise and no card is really bad. The fishing is very much still there, just looking for perfect seals. It used to be an amazing feeling hitting Sleeve Draw but now it's just hatred and dread. It's an absolute chore to use and hopefully they fix it for controllers but it's pretty bad. The job loses its flavor and coming from old players, it's just a slap in the face.

I miss the old cards but SE will likely never go back. Same for the fairy. They hate trying to solve healers and their answer is dull them down and homogenize their kits.

I would have to put this in the context that the old card system still existed, and from my own gripes with this system, taking away redraw would have improved one element I did not like about it and that was the Balance fishing. I never really felt it was much of a random card system when I can just, change the card. It confounds me that players who found value in the other five cards didn't really join me in this complaint, or they didn't voice it. Unfortunately, the meta functions in favor of damage, so while this would make AST more fun for me to play, I would feel that I don't bring as much to the table as SCH and WHM when it comes to raiding because that other utility is inferior to dmg increases. Not much would change.

If anyone is asking, "Are you saying AST suffers because of the meta?" My answer is yes. But this applies to the simplification that currently governs our healers and tanks, not just AST.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it is mitigated. Mitigated doesn't mean it's not there, it means you're not screwed for three spires in a row.

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The current card system does mitigate rng by improving chance using seals, but the method implemented is just dull and stripped away higher potential it had, growth, and ability to prevent wipes. Yes, "bigger DMG" is optimal, but it is in no way a turnaround ability and the current set-up just locks AST is basically "No child left behind", which also kept students locked at the level of the lowest performing student instead of helping those that performed lower achieve greater. So, just like that in practice, everything is like really boring right now with nothing to push once players get to a certain skill-level and replaces it with an extreme amount of busy work for what's like a very small reward for the midcore and casual experiences like duty finder or alliance raids that are uninterested in achiever-taxonomy-centric metrics like Leaderboards and speed running

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I would have to put this in the context that the old card system still existed, and from my own gripes with this system, taking away redraw would have improved one element I did not like about it and that was the Balance fishing. I never really felt it was much of a random card system when I can just, change the card. It confounds me that players who found value in the other five cards didn't really join me in this complaint, or they didn't voice it. Unfortunately, the meta functions in favor of damage, so while this would make AST more fun for me to play, I would feel that I don't bring as much to the table as SCH and WHM when it comes to raiding because that other utility is inferior to dmg increases. Not much would change.

If anyone is asking, "Are you saying AST suffers because of the meta?" My answer is yes. But this applies to the simplification that currently governs our healers and tanks, not just AST.

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Systems that mitigate RNG are implemented in or can be applied to very successful card based games through deck-building or card-counting, so outright elimination is totally not going to make everyone happy. But, limiting it as a resource through making royal road into a stack currency, and making Divination a fluctuating constant effect whose strength is affected by the seals active and negative for overusing too many cards of the same seal would leave players more likely to offset the value of certain cards by trade-offs to avoid negative returns through balance fishing (interesting mentally). And then increasing control through abilities to control rng and stabilization of the buff. It's potentially less frantic and more cerebral than like right now

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

As much as I would love for them to bring back the old system, they dug their grave with the new one. If they went back, all the new ASTs would complain about the cards not being consistent and that it's a lot RNG to deal with.

While yes, the new system is consistent damage-wise and no card is really bad. The fishing is very much still there, just looking for perfect seals. It used to be an amazing feeling hitting Sleeve Draw but now it's just hatred and dread. It's an absolute chore to use and hopefully they fix it for controllers but it's pretty bad. The job loses its flavor and coming from old players, it's just a slap in the face.

I miss the old cards but SE will likely never go back. same for the fairy. They hate trying to solve healers and their answer is dull them down and homogenize their kits.

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Which, is why we can only wait in quiet frustration... Plus, the there is like the spaghetti code from 1.0 that no one really knows or has been explained in detail about, so unless they just like remake everything from scratch again...

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Systems that mitigate RNG are implemented in or can be applied to very successful card based games through deck-building or card-counting, so outright elimination is totally not going to make everyone happy. But, limiting it as a resource through making royal road into a stack currency, and making Divination a fluctuating constant effect whose strength is affected by the seals active and negative for overusing too many cards of the same seal would leave players more likely to offset the value of certain cards by trade-offs to avoid negative returns through balance fishing (interesting mentally). And then increasing control through abilities to control rng and stabilization of the buff. It's potentially less frantic and more cerebral than like right now

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I don't totally oppose mitigating RNG, however my point is there would be less of a need to mitigate the RNG if every card had value in the first place.

Over the course of the expansion, I have seen some great suggestions for the cards and Divination. Many of those I feel would make AST much more enjoyable than it has ever been. Unfortunately, any rework that has one of those six cards a damage increase immediately dismisses the other five. In other words, the AST many players would like to have available to them cannot exist in the game as is. I know that sounds all doom n gloom, but it is an easy observation to make that is facilitated further with the direction the game has gone over the years.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Unfortunately, any rework that has one of those six cards a damage increase immediately dismisses the other five.

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I think you have to make every card have a (minor) damage increase—or no card have one—plus some more-powerful alternate effect which is more varied (and where which is "best" is situational).

As purely hypothetical examples (these would almost certainly not be remotely balanced; I'm throwing them up here off-the-cuff between work meetings):

• Arrow: Gives a +2% damage increase plus an +8% SpS/SkS buff to target for the duration of the card.
• Spear: Gives a +2% damage increase plus an +8% Crit buff to target for the duration of the card.
• Ewer: Gives a +2% damage increase plus halves the MP cost of every cast target makes for the duration of the card.
• Bole: Gives a +2% damage increase plus extends the duration of all timed beneficial status effects on the target (or applied while the card is active) by 20%.
• Spire: Gives a +2% damage increase plus decreases the duration of all timed detrimental status effects on the target (or applied while the card is active) by 20%.
• Balance: 'Locks' a card on the target, allowing a second card to be played on them without overwriting the first.

In this hypothetical, everything (except Balance) has a very small damage boost (so no one card 'wins' by being 'the one with the damage boost'), and there's still variety in what could be played. Bonus: time manipulation shenanigans with Bole and Spire.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Unfortunately, any rework that has one of those six cards a damage increase immediately dismisses the other five.

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The cards could become longer duration with a limit on how many are played at once. Let's say a maximum of 2 per card. Balance goes on the DPS obviously, and you'd have to pick something else for the tank and yourself. AST's support aspect would shift a little from constantly drawing cards to shuffling them across the party list.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

In this hypothetical, everything (except Balance) has a very small damage boost (so no one card 'wins' by being 'the one with the damage boost'), and there's still variety in what could be played. Bonus: time manipulation shenanigans with Bole and Spire.

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Spire is useless, Spear is card we want (AKA balance), Arrow for Black mage, Ewer for Black Mage, Bole's neat, Balance almost necessitates that we bring back spread.

Also Ewer is so busted, I don't think you really appreciate what that means. You'd effectively lock in Astrologian and Black Mage together, and feeding them every Ewer, let alone extending it with Bole, can push Black Mage's AF uptime from around 70% to 85-90% based purely on RNG, which translates into something absurd. I'd say a 15% increase is the absolute minimum.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I think you have to make every card have a (minor) damage increase—or no card have one—plus some more-powerful alternate effect which is more varied (and where which is "best" is situational).

As purely hypothetical examples (these would almost certainly not be remotely balanced; I'm throwing them up here off-the-cuff between work meetings):

• Arrow: Gives a +2% damage increase plus an +8% SpS/SkS buff to target for the duration of the card.
• Spear: Gives a +2% damage increase plus an +8% Crit buff to target for the duration of the card.
• Ewer: Gives a +2% damage increase plus halves the MP cost of every cast target makes for the duration of the card.
• Bole: Gives a +2% damage increase plus extends the duration of all timed beneficial status effects on the target (or applied while the card is active) by 20%.
• Spire: Gives a +2% damage increase plus decreases the duration of all timed detrimental status effects on the target (or applied while the card is active) by 20%.
• Balance: 'Locks' a card on the target, allowing a second card to be played on them without overwriting the first.

In this hypothetical, everything (except Balance) has a very small damage boost (so no one card 'wins' by being 'the one with the damage boost'), and there's still variety in what could be played. Bonus: time manipulation shenanigans with Bole and Spire.

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your version of Spire could potentially be detrimental. shortening the duration of certain debuffs in refulgence for example would cause more harm then good.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

your version of Spire could potentially be detrimental. shortening the duration of certain debuffs in refulgence for example would cause more harm then good.

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Wouldn't this also cause Doom to kill you faster? Or Walking Dead to end sooner?

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Originally Posted by Alteriius

Wouldn't this also cause Doom to kill you faster? Or Walking Dead to end sooner?

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Gotta risk it for the biscuit.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

your version of Spire could potentially be detrimental. shortening the duration of certain debuffs in refulgence for example would cause more harm then good.

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I mean... yes? And it would be a disastrous mistake to use it when Doom mechanics are in play. But there's plenty of things you can do in-game now that are detrimental uses of theoretically-beneficial actions; I don't actually think that part's necessarily a flaw, per se. And it adds an element of "is this the right time to play this" to things.

However, I know the examples were impractical and wildly unbalanced in general, and even said as much in the post listing them; they were not "these are exactly what the cards should be" but rather off-the-cuff examples of "cards could have a variety of different effects—things like these—and still have a damage increase to ensure no one card is immediately the One True Card like Balance was, and you could even probably come up with a way to restore some time manipulation stuff" which were cooked up in five minutes between meetings at work.

Any actual replacement card effects would need a lot more time, effort, and thought than five minutes of forum post put into their design. ;)

But I do still stand by the general gist, that you could give the cards some variety where different effects would be situationally more or less useful, and where cards that could be extremely useful in one spot might even be downright hazardous in another.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except now it’s very possible to get three sun seals in a row when you need a crescent moon. So I don’t see much difference there.

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This is what bothers me. We are still fishing. And we have less choices than before. (Royal Road, Spread, Lord/Lady, Redraw compared to just Redraw and Lord/Lady) AND the Lore is now all screwed up. They didn't accomplish their goals they set out on for the rework.

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

This is what bothers me. We are still fishing. And we have less choices than before. (Royal Road, Spread, Lord/Lady, Redraw compared to just Redraw and Lord/Lady) AND the Lore is now all screwed up. They didn't accomplish their goals they set out on for the rework.

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Dealing with the same crap, except now it takes way more effort to get even less out of the system. I'm looking forward to the Sleeve Draw rework, since it's such an absurd APM tax to use on a healer job. If they want to introduce increased APM requirements, there should be an increase in anything desirable whatsoever to compensate... not a decrease...


I don't expect Sleeve Draw's APM problem to get worse, but, then again, I've been disappointed before. Anxious, but a little optimistic.


edit: On-topic thoughts... I think it could work to adjust the system to exclude redraws, but I'd rather they have expanded on Spread by stealing another idea from Tetris: a "Next" preview that forces your draws to obey Redraw rules (because there's never any reason why I need three balances in a row.)

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

This is what bothers me. We are still fishing. And we have less choices than before.

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The problem is the dependency on that one card being one of the reasons why people fished for it. It could shave off literal minutes off the encounter time and even skip several mechanics (i.e. Zurvan’s Soar) if the Ast was lucky with Spread Balance. Card choice doesn’t matter when one specific card combination lets players do stuff like that, because that’ll be the combination everyone wants.

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

AND the Lore is now all screwed up. They didn't accomplish their goals they set out on for the rework.

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Probably the Lore is one thing I wish they’d fix too lol.

Though, I do have to disagree with the second point. The difference between being lucky with Balance and just never pulling one is astronomical especially in harder content. The new system makes it somewhat consistent and even if the Ast is unlucky, you can expect about the same amount of gains every pull. I think that’s what they were trying to mitigate with the new system. It’s not perfect and needs a lot of QoL, but it serves its purpose just fine.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

a "Next" preview that forces your draws to obey Redraw rules

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I’ve always wanted the ability to see upcoming cards since Heavensward. Would’ve helped immensely in planning what to do with cards if you could see three steps ahead. Kinda like the Expert Crafting; it would’ve been amazing to see the condition three steps ahead. :O

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Unfortunately, now you fish for Seals to get three different ones. Nothing has really changed in terms of that. Some of the people who defend the new system with the argument of RNG was mitigated is mistaken. The RNG is still there—it’s just moved.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it is mitigated.

Mitigated doesn't mean it's not there, it means you're not screwed for three spires in a row.

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This is not a direct response to you two but I'm using it as an example for a reminder, because it seems like a lot of people forgot something about the old system.
Back in 4.0, upon redrawing, the next card would automatically be different from the one you were holding.

Just that.
We lost it.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Back in 4.0, upon redrawing, the next card would automatically be different from the one you were holding.

Just that.
We lost it.

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Redraw still works like that though? It still draws a different arcanum and the tooltip says the same thing. :o

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Redraw still works like that though? It still draws a different arcanum and the tooltip says the same thing. :o

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It does, to an extent. If you only care about the seals, it absolutely does not. You can get balance, then bole and both would be the sun seal. which makes the redraw good if you wanted to give it to a ranged player, but if you were fishing for a different seal the redraw wasn't helpful.

It's like, they wanted less fishing so they gave us two things to fish for I just can't lol.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

It does, to an extent. If you only care about the seals, it absolutely does not. You can get balance, then bole and both would be the sun seal. which makes the redraw good if you wanted to give it to a ranged player, but if you were fishing for a different seal the redraw wasn't helpful.

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i guess it generally depends. In a light party or a full party with a non-standard composition, it’s usually better to throw out cards on the player doing the most damage (check the enmity gauge for DPS players) regardless of card type, and to sync Divination with other raid buffs even if the potency is lower. Holding onto cards is also something to consider because you don’t actually need to use the card the moment you draw it (15 seconds buff duration, 30 second Draw cooldown). The current card system really only works satisfyingly at a level where players coordinate team compositions, which is probably its biggest flaw.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

It's like, they wanted less fishing so they gave us two things to fish for I just can't lol.

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I personally don’t think they were trying to get people to fish for cards less. More than likely it’s just the devs trying to make it more consistent. It’s much easier to balance things out when the expected damage gain is consistent. The cases where they have to balance around the possibility of an Ast throwing out five Spread Balances in a row sounds like a nightmare to me lol.

The current card system isn’t satisfying to play with, but you’re always guaranteed to get something out of it even if RNG decided to mess it up. I think that’s probably what they were actually going for rather than trying to fix “fishing for balance”. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have implemented the Seals system to begin with. :o

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But it is mitigated.

Mitigated doesn't mean it's not there, it means you're not screwed for three spires in a row.

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unless you are the healer in a 4 man dungeon with two melees lol. Undraw is a skill they should have removed since there is no longer a timer to Play a card. Quite literally useless and is not even on my crossbar.

Low key they probably felt fishing for cards was part of the class fantasy but just wanted to limit the amount of variance between cards.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

It does, to an extent. If you only care about the seals, it absolutely does not. You can get balance, then bole and both would be the sun seal. which makes the redraw good if you wanted to give it to a ranged player, but if you were fishing for a different seal the redraw wasn't helpful.

It's like, they wanted less fishing so they gave us two things to fish for I just can't lol.

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Seals are just a variant of Royal Road. It's the same fishing as when you had a Balance saved in your Spread, but no Spire / Ewer to AoE it. Now, you're fishing for a Spire / Ewer still, but instead of fishing being a game-changer, it instead makes the difference between a 4% buff or a 5% buff.
Exactly the same gameplay loop, if they meant to change that then they just flat-out failed. It just has a heavy blanket of apathy over everything, since it doesn't feel very rewarding to have good luck.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

Seals are just a variant of Royal Road. It's the same fishing as when you had a Balance saved in your Spread, but no Spire / Ewer to AoE it. Now, you're fishing for a Spire / Ewer still, but instead of fishing being a game-changer, it instead makes the difference between a 4% buff or a 5% buff.
Exactly the same gameplay loop, if they meant to change that then they just flat-out failed. It just has a heavy blanket of apathy over everything, since it doesn't feel very rewarding to have good luck.

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You are correct, we did fish for aoe and balance, which is two things to fish for, most of the time (because if your party wasn't failing, that was the best option to benefit everyone equally).

I guess what I meant was, they didn't reduce fishing and I think it's hilarious that their reasoning for the current playstyle was to reduce fishing.

In fact I feel like it was less fishing before these changes because minor arcana was actually useful. Free ogcd heal or damage card? That was great! It meant no card was ever useless. Actually was great during the opener if you got a lord card. Now it just transforms a dps buff into a dps buff that's only a few % stronger lol. We also only had to fish for the royal road we wanted once, then fish for the card we wanted to boost. Now we need to fish for three "royal roads" seals and three cards that have to match each player in the party.

It went from get aoe > dmg card at the most basic gameplay style
to
get 3 different seals that you sometimes don't get in time before the next divination > give each dps party member the accurate role card.

That's a lot more to do than get royal road, throw card if no get card, minor arcana for free dps/heal.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

I guess what I meant was, they didn't reduce fishing and I think it's hilarious that their reasoning for the current playstyle was to reduce fishing.

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Yeah, it was the only real reason given: yoshi said astros were just fishing for balance, and they didn't want that. So incredulously, they revamped the card and gauge system so that we're FISHING EVEN MORE (umm.. but with less of a payoff).

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

Yeah, it was the only real reason given: yoshi said astros were just fishing for balance, and they didn't want that. So incredulously, they revamped the card and gauge system so that we're FISHING EVEN MORE (umm.. but with less of a payoff).

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More work for less payoff is a recurring theme here... I'm hoping the Sleeve Draw rework takes things in more of a "maybe just a little bit more work for less payoff" direction, instead of firmly-founded "much more work for less payoff" as-is currently. I know it can feel contradictory to give mixed messages along the lines of asking for less button presses to do cards while also complaining about how we press 1 main button too much, but... Well, the current card system is pretty shallow, and I don't think healers are a good design space for Shallow Complexity (for example: imagine if each of the six cards had a different button to play the card, instead of a context-sensitive Play button. Dragoon combos taking up 5 buttons, is what I'm alluding to- works for Dragoon, would be terrible on healer.)


Basically, I'm thinking that the whole, "we don't like how you fish for balances" thing wasn't thought out very well. No point in taking any small, blue, square pills, if they happen to have the side effect of causing the affected body parts to fall off...