Some time ago i have proposed solutions which i believe would solve all problems with MCH, but there is one problem that still persists. Devs try to connect gun part and machine part, which can work, but it may lead to ability bloat and job identity issues.
If we add too many new gun actions, multitool actions will feel out of place. If we add too many multitool actions while ignoring the gun part we kill the lore (which already suffers due to removal of ammo system and classic gunshots in favor of heated sideflips).
I think splitting MCH into two jobs would be actually better solution. I don't have any detailed ideas, so i will just roughly describe it.
First, the Gunner. I think it should be just called Machinist, so devs won't have to change all dialogues from Machinist to Gunner.
Get rid of multitool actions, automaton, battery gauge. Bring back all removed stuff, which was removed for no reason. Obviously except gauss barrel and casting times. Keep heat gauge, it looks good on paper, but so far it was poorly executed. Basically as we execute actions heat gauge is increasing, and player is able to execute heated actions. 100% selfish dps, maybe similar to SAM, which would require expanding combo, but we have enough of removed animations for that. Turret stays, bishop returns. LB3 stays.
And second part, Engineer. Job trainer can be someone from Skysteel Manufactory. Main weapon is the multitool. Now we can add more stuff, like chainsaw for aoe, etc. Battery gauge will be used for summoning automaton, but current model design allows for multiple "versions" of automaton. So for example one action calls automaton for aoe damage, another one will call ranged automaton (make use of that cannon on its back). One automaton at a time, executing other summon action will cancel previous summon. Engineer would be support/debuffer, or both. For example automaton can increase health regeneration for all party members nearby, automaton reduces enemy damage dealt, etc. Plenty of things can be done here. I have idea about rotation similar to BRD, so one action to spam, and other things will proc.
A few side ideas:
LB3 - summon multiple automatons to bombard enemy with cannon fire.
Victory pose - fistbump automaton.
I believe there is no better solution to satisfy gun and machine fans than creating both jobs. MCH is a problem since it was introduced, it should be solved by now.
Split Machinist to Gunner and Engineer
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07-09-2020, 03:00 AMCetek14Split Machinist to Gunner and Engineer
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07-09-2020, 03:05 AMHeulGDarian
#Givelimsahermusketeer
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07-09-2020, 03:09 AMDarkpaw
This sounds horrible. MCH isn’t in that bad of a spot to need a fix like this, the issues don’t stem from some kind of identity crisis.
MCH problems are much more simple to pin point. Ping dependency, uninteresting rotation with a skill that feels like it is staggeringly underwhelming (wildfire) and automaton is fire and forget with no actual interaction necessary.
So splitting it into two classes is needlessly complicated and utterly pointless. Why take a job that after a miserable last expansion got brought up to be a decent job albeit with a few flaws and tear it back down again and shove in all the flaws it had in the last expansion with no seeming course correction on anything.
Stormblood MCH and the heat gauge were universally panned. It was the least played class through the entirety of Stormblood. No one wants it back. -
07-09-2020, 03:24 AMCetek14I haven't said i want SB iteration back, it was a crap. But a lot of good things were removed (ammunition system, reload, grenado shot, etc etc). Each rework cuts off some good parts, while adding more flaws, idea is about removing flaws and bringing back good stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpaw
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07-09-2020, 03:24 AMReiMakoto
I aggree that machinist should full on pivot into being all about the multi-tool all the time. The gun just seems completely vestigial to its design at this point considering you dont really "shoot" with any attacks outside of like gauss round anymore. However i think splitting mch into 2 dps jobs would be problematic, as much as I loved hw mch, its design was changed due to a lack of popularity, and sb was a mess.
Ideally I'd change mchs primary weapon to the multi-tool, lets be honest its just way cooler than the guns at this point and could make for some cool rotations, the heated combo could absolutely be made to work with the multi-tool and adding movings like gatlinggun and chainsaw would be rad. Then I would repurpose all the old gun models for something like chemist (which mch was originally going to be), having a new dps job come out of it would occupy too similar of a design space. -
07-09-2020, 03:42 AMCetek14I believe lack of popularity in HW was the problem from other reasons. Physical ranged were basically casters (which was awful), and MCH was high effort low reward, so only a few mained it. I think really well made Gunner would find a lot of fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
And we can't really get rid of a gun on MCH, since it would require reworking whole job storyline. They barely give us content, so i wouldn't expect changes as big as that. -
07-09-2020, 03:54 AMItMe
I know this might sound kinda out there, but if they were to split MCH into two jobs I think one of the two should focus on the Automaton Queen and turrets and just be a straight up robot/magitek job~
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07-09-2020, 08:59 AMDarkpaw
Ammunition had its highs and lows, as did reload.. grenado shot will be sorely missed but missing those things should not justify the effort into splitting this job apart.
The gun is a part of machinist and they did as the community begged them by giving them a focus outside of just the gun. Remember before this iteration people hated mch because it was just a “gunner” and the turrets were just tacked on.
They’ve struck a mostly good balance. Yes, current machinist has issues but not nearly as glaring as what they were. Other jobs are in far more desperate of a need of a rework than mch. Plus there needs to be a new healer.
So why would they take a job that needs some relatively minor tweaks and instead of fixing said minor issues; split it into two vastly different jobs, one that was made before and have to go back re-examine the complaints and address them maybe getting it right probably not, and one basically from scratch.. on top of all the other work..
im sorry but this is an extremely selfish request that ignores the fact that mch has become popular in its current iteration and distracts from the real issues people want to see addressed with the job to maintain it’s place that was hard fought to achieve. So few of us stayed to theorycraft and beg for changes during stormblood we dont need to go through that again. -
07-09-2020, 09:20 AMCetek14We just have a problem with the fact that devs make changes based on the most vocal group. They created gunner, people wanted machinist. They created machinist, people want gunner. So i offer solution - just create both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpaw
And i wouldn't say MCH is very popular. In comparison to SB yes, because then it was absolute disaster that shouldn't even leave "quality check" (if they have something like that). That first popularity "boom" is gone, this job is extremely braindead, and feels like rework was only half finished. There are ways to adjust what we have now, but split would just satisfy both groups at once.
Also, i can't really say which jobs requires rework the most, so i will just say that from my opinion, DRK, WAR, MNK, MCH, all require at least major changes. I'm not looking at the damage output, job must feel good and have a place in lore, be authentic. Machinist is an ishgardian military, yet player cannot be part of it since 4.0. Machinist deserves something better than cheap 5.0 "rework". -
07-09-2020, 10:51 AMDarkpaw
The most vocal? So what go for the least vocal? Double the work to appease a few? Mch is a much more popular job than it was even at launch from what ive seen. And yes it has problems.. but its hit a good balance as a machinist. Taking the gun away is pointless, focusing only on the multitool is pointless.
Splitting the job is way too much work for the issues. You’re talking a massive rework again and building a new job from the ground up in a year.
Monk, Drk, Smn all need reworks MCH only “needs a rework” because its not what you want. Many people are fine where it is conceptually in fact apparently a lot are, at least a lot more than played the job since it launched. Yes it has problems but too many other things and other jobs should take way more priority than two mch reworks.
Fix the issues and see how it progresses before clamoring for that. And just so we are clear lets go over a more intensive list of things people desire..
Opposite Genders for Hrothgar and Viera
Hairstyles for both
Mnk rework
Smn rework
Drk rework
Healer rework
New Healer
New kinds of high end content
Mythic+
Aggro management rework
Trust system expansion
FC content
Glamour system expansion
Inventory expansions
Use for gil
Just to start. -
07-09-2020, 11:07 AMItMeChange how housing works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpaw
Differentiate the tanks from each other and reestablish individual identities.
Differentiate the healers from each other and reestablish individual identities.
More content for BLU.
End game content for crafters.
etc.
Yeah, there's a real list there.
Though I can understand the request nonetheless. If we're getting two new jobs next expansion, we could get healer and a gunner, and then the 6.0 version of MCH could just be more machine based (or whatever). -
07-09-2020, 01:48 PMJirah
First off MCH has the least amount of Skills in the game, not including shallow “upgrades” That stretches for 3 leveling cycles &I think 1-2 short compared to Dancer, so Bloat isn’t MCH issue.
Contrary to popular belief MCH has issues you just don’t hear about them much because everyone thinks it’s better than the 4.0 variant they didn’t bother to level up because the skill spread was poor. MCH major issues isn’t even job identity, nor skill bloat so I have no clue how a segregated Gun-like Job will “solve” MCH current incarnation.
If MCH lost its gadgets and machinery it’ll loose its turret, Ricochet, Guass barrel, it’s arsenal of Bio, Autocross bow, Drill, Air anchor, Wildfire, and Hypercharge from the Aethertransformer to “Engineer” so what’s left....it’s basic rotation, spread shot and maybe flamethrower. Gunner just doesn’t have much potential, it can get Ammo but everyone hates ammo rng rotation....in 4.0 at least. The Flintlock is a machine after all they go together Gun and Gizmo.
If you really wanna talk MCH issues @ me. I’m like that one Viera Scholar dude with the “Make Job not boring again” -
07-09-2020, 04:40 PMCKNovel
I don't disagree with the idea.
The "gun" rotation has so little presence in the kit today that you could make it work like BLM Fire.
Get a stance mechanic during which you use the multitool as the gun. Replacing your base GCDs with stronger ones and Ricochet/GR with stronger versions or keep them. Fail to maintain the stance and you got back to your little shooty. Hypercharge could fill this role.
Problem with that solution is you won't see your main weapon anymore or rarely.
A Gunslinger/Musketeer job also needs to be unique in its own. It could also use guns as RDM, PLD, DRK uses swords (Can also extend it to SAM) or BLM/WHM uses scepters.
Ammos, however, were annoying and ininteresting. In my opinion, it should work like SCH, ammos being required for unique abilities or adding extra effects on those abilities. However is should be either defensive, either offensive, can't have a mix of both.
I'd also love to see a "Mustadio-like" mechanic with aiming. Instead of using regular combos, Gunner would use "Flank Shot", "Leg Shot" to find the target weakspot and prepare a "Headshot" GCD.
Or as a Gunslinder, it could rotate between multiple weapons. Guns don't come in one forms, you could have a gunslinger stance blasting with two guns, a stance using bigger guns to deal colateral damage to other targets, sniper stance, and so on.
Nobody said we couldn't have two jobs using guns as we have many sword users that plays differently. -
07-09-2020, 05:08 PMSeraphor
Not only is a 'Machinist' a classic FF job that I'd be sore to see go, but I don't believe 'gunner' and 'engineer' on their own have enough substance to them to make up full jobs in FFXIV.
Just like how seperate Archer and Bard wouldn't either. -
07-09-2020, 05:22 PMJirahThe only time they did a job with two of the same weapons (SCH/SMN) it ended up eventually being a poor choice. And not a very good example having 2 DPS share a weapons design at least their different rolesQuote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Even beyond that, I don’t see many Paladins wielding Rapiers, or Samurai wielding Great swords since were taking weapons out of proportions.
It would be a shameful waste of a job slot somthing we are gonna eventually run out of -
07-09-2020, 07:13 PMCKNovelNono, I don't mean as SCH/SMN, that is a mistake that should not be repeated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
However you pointed not seeing Paladins wielding Rapieds or Samurai using great sword (With glam DRK can """use""" a big Katana) and that's the same with guns.
There is many different guns, MCH uses one-hand guns but a Gunner could use two guns or a Musket.
And I'm a bit saddened to read that there is not enough Gunner substance.
Rest in peace Mustadio and his gameplay heavily around guns, Barret and his hand that is a machine gun, Laguna and Irvine, Yuna from FFX-2...
Mustadio has aiming abilities.
Barret has big shots. But also new abilities in FF7R.
Irvine is more based around his ammo uses and most ammos are unique and provide different effects.
Yuna has a lot of abilities.
On top of that, a Gunner job could also switch between weapons like stances.
MCH has a lot of substance, we don't even have all the Machinery yet.
The current MCH kit is a good base, the main problem is that it's a bit empty and you can feel it's half the rework as Flamethrower still exists.
Now MCH also summons bot and that can allows a wide path to take.
Gunplay is already weak on MCH anyway! -
07-09-2020, 07:44 PMSeraphorThe difference is jobs in every other Final Fantasy have all been far shallower.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
White Mage just had healing skills and had no Stone or Assize or Lilies, Black Mage just used elemental spells with no Enochian or Swiftcast or Astral fire, etc. because you would use a party of characters and effectively be combining multiple jobs into your set up.
'Mustadio and his gameplay revolving heavily around guns' is almost completely represented within just the Physical ranged role skills, Leg Graze, etc.
Barret and Irvine simply used attacks that used a gun, this is almost completely represented by Machinist's 1-2-3 combo, with things like Hot shot, Ricochet, Gauss round etc. filling out the gaps. Admittedly the old ammo system gave it more 'gun identity' but there's still not enough there to base an entirely separate job around.
Then you mention how gunner could switch between weapons like stances... so it would be a... machinist... using different machines?
Simply 'shooting a gun' isn't enough of a job identity on it's own, that's WHY Machinist has different... machines.
Machinist IS the Gunner class. Mustadio was a Machinist, Balthier was by design a Machinist and the Machinist class in TZA is just a Gunner in all but name. Machinist=Gunner.
By contrast, all of the 'machines' it uses that aren't guns, actually come from characters that were never called 'Machinist's, Edgar and Prompto specifically.
Adding a 'Gunner' class at this point, would be like adding a 'Ronin' class that uses Katana, but 'in a different way'.
The only viable avenue I see for them to implement another gun-wielding job, is as a Healer, like Chemist. -
07-09-2020, 09:06 PMRosenstrauchThis is actually incorrect. In the versions of Final Fantasy 6 that assign Job names to the various characters, Edgar's Job is in fact "Machinist". I imagine that's why the Machinist Job in this game uses so many of his tools specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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07-10-2020, 12:18 AMLihtleita
just go full ham on the gadgeteer part of mch and introduce a musketeer class that recycles some of the old abilities. Make rostanstahl the job tutor so that all of it makes sense ingame.
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07-10-2020, 09:55 AMEdwinLi
Ya the MCH identity crisis through 3.0 to now has been the issue with MCH.
Developers just could not determine what they wanted it to be though now MCh identity for 5.0 era is that of a Heavy Gun Weapon master now with all their new skills and changes to old skills. -
07-10-2020, 12:12 PMGallagosWhat does this solve?
I'm still trying to understand what problem we're trying to solve here. Class identity? Skill set? A desire for new classes? Mechanical improvements?
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07-10-2020, 12:49 PMItMeI don't know about others, and I assume everyone would get something different out of the split, but I just want a robot class in a game with cool robots :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Gallagos
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07-10-2020, 03:53 PMJirah
Considering MCH is at its most primitive state as of 5.0. Being very simple and with inconsequential Gages (Battery is a glorified CD) 6.0 will either double down or give us like 2 skills, 1 AOE and a “Upgrade” skill or Broil 5. And so everyone will be sick of it and be drawn to the other jobs hardy improvements
I think this Topic is deprived of MCH direction. As it can go either way to Gadgets or Gunslinger -
07-10-2020, 05:08 PMSeraphorPeople seem to want a gun job but don't like MCH for one reason or another. Yet don't seem to realise that Machinist IS the classic Final Fantasy gunner job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallagos
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07-10-2020, 07:48 PMHeulGDarianbut he isnt the classic ff gunner job. Its current inspiration is from edgar of ff6 , and he wasnt a guy with a gun , he was a womanizer king who loved gadgets , he literally had a castle that could dig inside the earth to travel across the ocean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
To clarify i dont really agree with op , the only thing i want is an actual gun job and i learned recently that musketeer is a cancelled one , the change of direction for current mch gives a good reason to rethink that decision , and i dont see the harm on asking to have an actual gunner job.
Only thing i read and heavily disagree is the 2 people saying that smn/sch chain was a mistake , something that has been fixed since stormblood, and something that is a selling point for those jobs as well as what makes them so different and more interesting than other jobs. but nooooooo lets keep beating a dead horse and crucify both jobs , look what happened in shadowbringers both suffer cause summoner lost aetherflow and sch lost the dps spells he shared. but nope its their fault for being chained together , we cant have nice things it was a mistake cause heavensward existed and people havent heard of traits, lets keep trying to destroy it. -
07-10-2020, 08:20 PMMPNZFor smn/sch the shared base class caused sever balancing issues, and FF14 borrows a lot of lore from the Ivalice Alliance games with the flare of Irvine and "the man with a machinegun" from FF8Quote:
Originally Posted by HeulGDarian
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...nist_(Tactics)
And, most of these job split suggestions are usually just unimaginative pigeon-holding or like really boring like "pure-healer" is -
07-10-2020, 08:43 PMHeulGDariancaused it doesnt cause anymore , and it hasnt caused since stormblood. they are still chained togetherQuote:
Originally Posted by MPNZ
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07-10-2020, 10:04 PMgumas
i just want my mch class to be able wield 2 handed rifle, also an option to toggle 1-2-3 combo animation to pre 50, hate that back flipping
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07-15-2020, 05:05 PMCKNovelJob identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallagos
3.0 and 4.0 MCH problems were that machineries were absent from the job and the turret was too weak to justify the "Machinist".
As Yoshi-P described it, it was a more of a Gadgeteer.
Now in 5.0, the problem is the opposite. The job revolves heavily around the uses of heavy machines (Multi-tool and Queen) and the gun is here to fill the holes in the gameplay.
When no machines are available, you use Gun GCD or spend the heat gauge.
As such, people want less gun&flips and more machineries.
And as the opposite, there's another group that wants a job fully revolving around the use of guns.
Everyone (Or nearly everyone as far as I can see) is satisfied with MCH going the right path but there is still a strong desire for a gun oriented job. It's not impossible as there is jobs that use the same kind of weapons. Sword (PLD, RDM, DRK), Staves (WHM, BLM) for instance.
MCH could still use its one-handed gun but a gun-oriented job could use a musket for example.
Honestly, I'd remain MCH main but I'd still play both. -
07-15-2020, 07:03 PMSeraphor
I think MCH is at the perfect balance right now.
It's core rotation is still entirely Gun based.
1-2-3 combo, plus Hypercharge, Heatblast and Gauss Round, Ricochet and Spread Shot. Reassemble and Barrel Stabiliser are also gun-related. It has more gun abilities than 'gadgets'.
Once again, Machinist IS the gun job in the Final Fantasy series. Adding gadgets is just the flavour that Final Fantasy's gun job has now.
Just as Final Fantasy's signature 'mage' job is based around elements and wears a pointy yellow hat. -
07-15-2020, 07:21 PMJandor
The over the top flips being standard feels a bit weird (although I do like the one where you summon a bunch of bullets) but overall I like the 'gunner that deploys robots and gadgets' theme.
I don't particularly like giant multi-tool though, I'd rather have the robot turret back.
Have it transform/deploy various things i.e. pops out a flamethrower and starts spinning round throwing fire everywhere for AoE, flips out a minigun and goes to town for ST, deploys an electrical field on the ground for a DoT effect, transforms into the automaton queen and rushes-in for the big melee mode attacks. & so on.
MCH doesn't really have a lot of skills, I feel there is plenty of room to add enough that both "gunners" and "engineers" can be happy. -
07-15-2020, 08:26 PMReiMakotoHard disagree here, of the 1-2-3 combo only split shot "uses" the gun (and even then with loads of flips), slug shot and clean shot are about summoning missles and weird laser turrets. Heat blast sort of uses the gun, but its more of a waft than a shoot, but we can count it. So of its single target gcds 2/6 of them are "shooting" the gun and in aoe is 1/4 (counting flamethrower as a gcd cos it triggers the gcd). Whilst the gun is present in a lot of the attacks, they are using it more like a wand in most cases than a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Also going by the wikis defininition of a machinist, only some of them use guns, namely Tactics and XII, other iterations of machinist/engineer use a variety of different weapons across the series, https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Machinist_(job), and in a lot of games with a "machinist" there are other classes that use the gun as well, for example chemists in tactics are just as gun oriented, and in tactics advances they fully seperated them into tinker and fusilier.
What people are wanting here is a class that revolves almost solely around actually shooting things with their gun, which is what mch used to be, but now the gun seems basically vestigal in its kit, where everything could be replaced with the multitool and no one would bat an eye and it would make just as much sense. Even MCHs lore is at odds with itself, the machinists questline is all about gunslinging, yet the WOL version is basically a gun mage.