Split Machinist to Gunner and Engineer

[Cetek14]

Some time ago i have proposed solutions which i believe would solve all problems with MCH, but there is one problem that still persists. Devs try to connect gun part and machine part, which can work, but it may lead to ability bloat and job identity issues.
If we add too many new gun actions, multitool actions will feel out of place. If we add too many multitool actions while ignoring the gun part we kill the lore (which already suffers due to removal of ammo system and classic gunshots in favor of heated sideflips).

I think splitting MCH into two jobs would be actually better solution. I don't have any detailed ideas, so i will just roughly describe it.

First, the Gunner. I think it should be just called Machinist, so devs won't have to change all dialogues from Machinist to Gunner.
Get rid of multitool actions, automaton, battery gauge. Bring back all removed stuff, which was removed for no reason. Obviously except gauss barrel and casting times. Keep heat gauge, it looks good on paper, but so far it was poorly executed. Basically as we execute actions heat gauge is increasing, and player is able to execute heated actions. 100% selfish dps, maybe similar to SAM, which would require expanding combo, but we have enough of removed animations for that. Turret stays, bishop returns. LB3 stays.

And second part, Engineer. Job trainer can be someone from Skysteel Manufactory. Main weapon is the multitool. Now we can add more stuff, like chainsaw for aoe, etc. Battery gauge will be used for summoning automaton, but current model design allows for multiple "versions" of automaton. So for example one action calls automaton for aoe damage, another one will call ranged automaton (make use of that cannon on its back). One automaton at a time, executing other summon action will cancel previous summon. Engineer would be support/debuffer, or both. For example automaton can increase health regeneration for all party members nearby, automaton reduces enemy damage dealt, etc. Plenty of things can be done here. I have idea about rotation similar to BRD, so one action to spam, and other things will proc.
A few side ideas:
LB3 - summon multiple automatons to bombard enemy with cannon fire.
Victory pose - fistbump automaton.

I believe there is no better solution to satisfy gun and machine fans than creating both jobs. MCH is a problem since it was introduced, it should be solved by now.

[HeulGDarian]

#Givelimsahermusketeer

[Darkpaw]

This sounds horrible. MCH isn’t in that bad of a spot to need a fix like this, the issues don’t stem from some kind of identity crisis.

MCH problems are much more simple to pin point. Ping dependency, uninteresting rotation with a skill that feels like it is staggeringly underwhelming (wildfire) and automaton is fire and forget with no actual interaction necessary.

So splitting it into two classes is needlessly complicated and utterly pointless. Why take a job that after a miserable last expansion got brought up to be a decent job albeit with a few flaws and tear it back down again and shove in all the flaws it had in the last expansion with no seeming course correction on anything.

Stormblood MCH and the heat gauge were universally panned. It was the least played class through the entirety of Stormblood. No one wants it back.

[Cetek14]

This sounds horrible. MCH isn’t in that bad of a spot to need a fix like this, the issues don’t stem from some kind of identity crisis.

MCH problems are much more simple to pin point. Ping dependency, uninteresting rotation with a skill that feels like it is staggeringly underwhelming (wildfire) and automaton is fire and forget with no actual interaction necessary.

So splitting it into two classes is needlessly complicated and utterly pointless. Why take a job that after a miserable last expansion got brought up to be a decent job albeit with a few flaws and tear it back down again and shove in all the flaws it had in the last expansion with no seeming course correction on anything.

Stormblood MCH and the heat gauge were universally panned. It was the least played class through the entirety of Stormblood. No one wants it back.

I haven't said i want SB iteration back, it was a crap. But a lot of good things were removed (ammunition system, reload, grenado shot, etc etc). Each rework cuts off some good parts, while adding more flaws, idea is about removing flaws and bringing back good stuff.

[Darkpaw]

Ammunition had its highs and lows, as did reload.. grenado shot will be sorely missed but missing those things should not justify the effort into splitting this job apart.

The gun is a part of machinist and they did as the community begged them by giving them a focus outside of just the gun. Remember before this iteration people hated mch because it was just a “gunner” and the turrets were just tacked on.

They’ve struck a mostly good balance. Yes, current machinist has issues but not nearly as glaring as what they were. Other jobs are in far more desperate of a need of a rework than mch. Plus there needs to be a new healer.

So why would they take a job that needs some relatively minor tweaks and instead of fixing said minor issues; split it into two vastly different jobs, one that was made before and have to go back re-examine the complaints and address them maybe getting it right probably not, and one basically from scratch.. on top of all the other work..

im sorry but this is an extremely selfish request that ignores the fact that mch has become popular in its current iteration and distracts from the real issues people want to see addressed with the job to maintain it’s place that was hard fought to achieve. So few of us stayed to theorycraft and beg for changes during stormblood we dont need to go through that again.

[Cetek14]

Ammunition had its highs and lows, as did reload.. grenado shot will be sorely missed but missing those things should not justify the effort into splitting this job apart.

The gun is a part of machinist and they did as the community begged them by giving them a focus outside of just the gun. Remember before this iteration people hated mch because it was just a “gunner” and the turrets were just tacked on.

They’ve struck a mostly good balance. Yes, current machinist has issues but not nearly as glaring as what they were. Other jobs are in far more desperate of a need of a rework than mch. Plus there needs to be a new healer.

So why would they take a job that needs some relatively minor tweaks and instead of fixing said minor issues; split it into two vastly different jobs, one that was made before and have to go back re-examine the complaints and address them maybe getting it right probably not, and one basically from scratch.. on top of all the other work..

im sorry but this is an extremely selfish request that ignores the fact that mch has become popular in its current iteration and distracts from the real issues people want to see addressed with the job to maintain it’s place that was hard fought to achieve. So few of us stayed to theorycraft and beg for changes during stormblood we dont need to go through that again.

We just have a problem with the fact that devs make changes based on the most vocal group. They created gunner, people wanted machinist. They created machinist, people want gunner. So i offer solution - just create both.

And i wouldn't say MCH is very popular. In comparison to SB yes, because then it was absolute disaster that shouldn't even leave "quality check" (if they have something like that). That first popularity "boom" is gone, this job is extremely braindead, and feels like rework was only half finished. There are ways to adjust what we have now, but split would just satisfy both groups at once.

Also, i can't really say which jobs requires rework the most, so i will just say that from my opinion, DRK, WAR, MNK, MCH, all require at least major changes. I'm not looking at the damage output, job must feel good and have a place in lore, be authentic. Machinist is an ishgardian military, yet player cannot be part of it since 4.0. Machinist deserves something better than cheap 5.0 "rework".

[ReiMakoto]

I aggree that machinist should full on pivot into being all about the multi-tool all the time. The gun just seems completely vestigial to its design at this point considering you dont really "shoot" with any attacks outside of like gauss round anymore. However i think splitting mch into 2 dps jobs would be problematic, as much as I loved hw mch, its design was changed due to a lack of popularity, and sb was a mess.

Ideally I'd change mchs primary weapon to the multi-tool, lets be honest its just way cooler than the guns at this point and could make for some cool rotations, the heated combo could absolutely be made to work with the multi-tool and adding movings like gatlinggun and chainsaw would be rad. Then I would repurpose all the old gun models for something like chemist (which mch was originally going to be), having a new dps job come out of it would occupy too similar of a design space.

[Cetek14]

I aggree that machinist should full on pivot into being all about the multi-tool all the time. The gun just seems completely vestigial to its design at this point considering you dont really "shoot" with any attacks outside of like gauss round anymore. However i think splitting mch into 2 dps jobs would be problematic, as much as I loved hw mch, its design was changed due to a lack of popularity, and sb was a mess.

Ideally I'd change mchs primary weapon to the multi-tool, lets be honest its just way cooler than the guns at this point and could make for some cool rotations, the heated combo could absolutely be made to work with the multi-tool and adding movings like gatlinggun and chainsaw would be rad. Then I would repurpose all the old gun models for something like chemist (which mch was originally going to be), having a new dps job come out of it would occupy too similar of a design space.

I believe lack of popularity in HW was the problem from other reasons. Physical ranged were basically casters (which was awful), and MCH was high effort low reward, so only a few mained it. I think really well made Gunner would find a lot of fans.

And we can't really get rid of a gun on MCH, since it would require reworking whole job storyline. They barely give us content, so i wouldn't expect changes as big as that.

[ItMe]

I know this might sound kinda out there, but if they were to split MCH into two jobs I think one of the two should focus on the Automaton Queen and turrets and just be a straight up robot/magitek job~

[Darkpaw]

The most vocal? So what go for the least vocal? Double the work to appease a few? Mch is a much more popular job than it was even at launch from what ive seen. And yes it has problems.. but its hit a good balance as a machinist. Taking the gun away is pointless, focusing only on the multitool is pointless.

Splitting the job is way too much work for the issues. You’re talking a massive rework again and building a new job from the ground up in a year.

Monk, Drk, Smn all need reworks MCH only “needs a rework” because its not what you want. Many people are fine where it is conceptually in fact apparently a lot are, at least a lot more than played the job since it launched. Yes it has problems but too many other things and other jobs should take way more priority than two mch reworks.

Fix the issues and see how it progresses before clamoring for that. And just so we are clear lets go over a more intensive list of things people desire..

Opposite Genders for Hrothgar and Viera
Hairstyles for both
Mnk rework
Smn rework
Drk rework
Healer rework
New Healer
New kinds of high end content
Mythic+
Aggro management rework
Trust system expansion
FC content
Glamour system expansion
Inventory expansions
Use for gil

Just to start.