In 6.0 could we fix the Pet Potencies, please?

So, I was "bored" and thought to test this out. For those new to the game, before 5.0 the Pets, mostly for SMN/SCH, had their own unique stats and aggro, they even had HP bars. But that all changed in 5.0 when SE integrated them and their moves more into the jobs actual kit. But what some people might not be aware of is that, although the pets had their own stats, it wasn't a 1:1 ratio comparable to the Job stats. The pet's stats were maybe 70-75% of the jobs.

Here's the thing though. With the adjustment made to the jobs, why do the pets still seem to have their own stats? I decided to check this out to see if this is still true, or if it was adjusted. Turns out that for SCH the faerie still heals for about 70% the SCH does. In fact, Fey Union is a direct parallel to Physick, since they are both "400" potency. But my Physick heals for around 18000, and Union heals for around 12500, which is around 70%. SMN seems to be a bit better as it seems the pet damage is around 85%; so a slight increase... maybe.

My point is, with the changes made to the pets, why aren't their potencies based on ours. I mean scaling potencies made sense when they were "separated" from us. But that is no longer the case. If I see that something does damage for 200 potency or heals for 400, I wanna have an idea based on the skills I use most frequently.

And this issue doesnt even include the pet-like skills that some of the other jobs have, like the turret or esteem.

So can this maybe be fixed with 6.0? Maybe?

So, what would likely happen, is sure, they adjust the scaling. Then simply nerf the abilities.

This is something they need to adress.
Scale the pet like the owner and adjust potencies accordingely OR show the actual potency of pet skills

I've met several player thinking that, potencies are the same as the owner while it's not.

Honestly please get rid of summoner pets in 6.0. We will get another demi primal To summon anyway I’m sure. So just give us that Demi rotation we been asking for. I’m sick of pet clunkiness, I’m sick of the pet ghosting. They don’t use abilities right when I want them too. I’m just sick of it. I truly hope the reason we haven’t seen egi glamours yet is because they dropping summoner pets come 6.0. I’m over it. Love the job but can’t stand the pets in this game.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

This is something they need to adress.
Scale the pet like the owner and adjust potencies accordingely OR show the actual potency of pet skills

I've met several player thinking that, potencies are the same as the owner while it's not.

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they are displayed under the actions tab at the very bottom. For example: fairy embrace is 150 potency.

For SMN the egi-assault action tell you the relevant pet action that will be performed by each egi and, like sch, all their potencies and skills are displayed at the bottom of the actions tab.
Garuda's auto-attack is a 30 potency aoe
Titan's is a 60 potency single target
Ifrit's is 80 potency single target.

yeah because we definitely need to make the strongest job in the game even stronger.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

yeah because we definitely need to make the strongest job in the game even stronger.

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I think the request could honestly also go the other way. We just want a way to be able to gauge how much damage or healing is going to happen. Even if they lower the tooltip potency so it actually matches, that would be fine. Just something so we can prepare for 3k instead of 4k.

ETA: at least that is how I read it. I just want all of my potencies to be internally consistent, even if it technically comes from my fairy. I don't need it to be any stronger (wouldn't complain about it, though =P)

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

So, what would likely happen, is sure, they adjust the scaling. Then simply nerf the abilities.

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I'd take it. I'd like if the game was better at giving people, especially new players, numbers to make informed decisions. For example, would like to see the conversion rate for secondary stats at current level within the client.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

So, what would likely happen, is sure, they adjust the scaling. Then simply nerf the abilities.

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Nothing would need to be "nerfed" the information we are given just needs to change. For instance, Embrace currently says 150, but relevant to our stats it should say like 100. The player just needs to know the potency based on their own stats.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

they are displayed under the actions tab at the very bottom. For example: fairy embrace is 150 potency.

For SMN the egi-assault action tell you the relevant pet action that will be performed by each egi and, like sch, all their potencies and skills are displayed at the bottom of the actions tab.
Garuda's auto-attack is a 30 potency aoe
Titan's is a 60 potency single target
Ifrit's is 80 potency single target.

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Those are the potencies based on the pet's stats, not the players. The potencies need to be adjusted to reflect the what they are based on our stats.

For instance the potencies you listed are better expressed as; Faerie:100, Garuda:20, Titan:45, Ifrit:60. Those are a more accurate potencies based on the players stats.

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Originally Posted by iilan

I think the request could honestly also go the other way. We just want a way to be able to gauge how much damage or healing is going to happen. Even if they lower the tooltip potency so it actually matches, that would be fine. Just something so we can prepare for 3k instead of 4k.

ETA: at least that is how I read it. I just want all of my potencies to be internally consistent, even if it technically comes from my fairy. I don't need it to be any stronger (wouldn't complain about it, though =P)

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You are correct. I'm not saying make the pet stronger, I'm saying adjust the information we are given based on the information we can see. We can't see pet stats, so the potencies should reflect our stats.

Is it that the pets have lower stats or is it because the master has Maim and Mend II, which increases healing and damage by 30%?

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

they are displayed under the actions tab at the very bottom. For example: fairy embrace is 150 potency..

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That's what I'm saying.
The current potencies display are "wrong".
Their actual power compare to the rest of the healer toolkit is about 70-80%.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

yeah because we definitely need to make the strongest job in the game even stronger.

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No. It's not about buffing pets.
It's about displaying the real potency according to the rest of the toolkit.
Whether it shows the real potency or make the scaling of the pet the same as the owner which result in "reducing" the potency displayed.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Is it that the pets have lower stats or is it because the master has Maim and Mend II, which increases healing and damage by 30%?

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That is likely the source of the discrepancy. The Pets have the exact same stats as their masters but not the +30% healing/damage trait.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Is it that the pets have lower stats or is it because the master has Maim and Mend II, which increases healing and damage by 30%?

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This was my initial thought as well. These traits theoretically shouldn't carry over to the pet in the same way that self-buffs technically shouldn't. However, with an admittedly small sample size, it appears as though Devotion increases the pet's damage (both auto attacks and egi-assaults) by 4.25%. This is exactly 85% of Devotion's 5% increase. So, if my results are indeed worth their salt, then the Maim & Mend traits should also be carrying over to pet damage/actions.

It really seems like egi damage is a direct 85% of whatever the SMN's damage is, including any buffs or traits that would increase the SMN's.

Consistency is key though. I would 100% appreciate accurate tooltips to show that Crimson Cyclone and Flaming Crush are 212 potency instead of the listed 250. The tooltips could lead you to believe your egi would deal the same 10k damage that you could with a 250 potency ability but it only actually deals 8.5k. That's a notable difference.

However, I would also appreciate egi's going away and transitioning to a 100% uptime of cycled demis - 3 for AoE, 3 for ST, and 3 for buff/solo. Give us Emerald/Ruby/Topaz carbuncles to initialize our demi path out of combat (or to change mid-combat) and have them function the same as a demi would as opposed to how they do now. Basically they would be stances and have their buttons change to their respective demi's to prevent button bloat.

• Emerald Carbuncle active (AoE): Demi-Garuda > Demi-Shiva > (Trance into Demi-Bahamut) > Demi-Garuda.
• Ruby Carbuncle active (ST): Demi-Ifrit > Demi-Ramuh > (Trance into Demi-Phoenix) > Demi-Ifrit.
• Topaz Carbuncle active (Solo/Buff): Demi-Titan > Demi-Leviathan > (Trance into Demi-Alexander) >Demi-titan.

I'd kind of like a FFVII spin to the trances, too, where as we level up perhaps their appearances change a bit - like how there were several Bahamuts (Bahamut, Neo Bahamut, Bahamut ZERO). Second Coil Savage in Japanese actually refers to it as Type-0 so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Is it that the pets have lower stats or is it because the master has Maim and Mend II, which increases healing and damage by 30%?

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No the trait is applied to the pet as well. Here is the trait text

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Increases base action damage and HP restoration by 30%. Also increases base damage and HP restoration of your pet by 30%.

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While they are at it, give me control of the Farie again so I can dual cast heals.
The AI is to slow

For what it's worth as a heads up, potency displaying as something different in tooltip from the actual potency is fairly common and definitely not limited to just pet actions. None of the BLM fire spells display the actual potency for example. They at least have a tooltip for astral fire that says fire spell potency is increased, which is a step up from pet potencies, but it still says nothing about by how much it gets increased.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

For what it's worth as a heads up, potency displaying as something different in tooltip from the actual potency is fairly common and definitely not limited to just pet actions. None of the BLM fire spells display the actual potency for example. They at least have a tooltip for astral fire that says fire spell potency is increased, which is a step up from pet potencies, but it still says nothing about by how much it gets increased.

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That's a bit different since, unlike the pet potencies, the BLM potencies, specifically for fire spells but also for their other spells, are a base, with an added multiplier that just happens to be consistent (stance and enochian). But unlike the pets, since the buff is a constant it becomes irrelevant in the long run, similar to Dragoon's buff. Now I'm not saying the tool tips couldn't be a bit more accurate, but it's not entirely the same thing as the pet potencies.

Jesus christ no wonder why schoolar is in such bade shape.

Someone in SE really watched youtube on the second screen instead of DOING THEIR OWN JOB.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I'd love to hear more thoughts from you. Considering you don't have SCH leveled, that you don't do any currently relevant content from what I can see, and that you don't even have any other healers leveled to make any form of comparison, I'd love to hear why someone with absolutely no real frame of reference thinks the job is in a bad state.

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Told by someone who also didnt level to 80 both astrologian and whm, but ok.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

That's a bit different since, unlike the pet potencies, the BLM potencies, specifically for fire spells but also for their other spells, are a base, with an added multiplier that just happens to be consistent (stance and enochian). But unlike the pets, since the buff is a constant it becomes irrelevant in the long run, similar to Dragoon's buff. Now I'm not saying the tool tips couldn't be a bit more accurate, but it's not entirely the same thing as the pet potencies.

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Pet potencies are constant too, so I'm unsure why you chose that as your second difference between them. Pet potency is just as consistent and irrelevant in the long run.

The actual main difference from things like Astral Fire is that the potency listed in the tooltip for pets is actually accurate. It's just that the end result is calculated based on the pet's stats instead of yours which in turn are based on your stats. It's not quite as simple as just changing the potency number that is displayed on the pet's ability tooltips since that number is technically accurate. A note about pet stats on the Summon I and Summon II tooltips would be nice, of course.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Jesus christ no wonder why schoolar is in such bade shape.

Someone in SE really watched youtube on the second screen instead of DOING THEIR OWN JOB.

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This sounds like someone just watched a youtube video about Scholar instead of actually playing the job.

Scholar is not in some hyperbolic bad shape. It is perfectly functional and able to do any content with ease. The main issues with it aren't even Scholar specific. I.e. pet clunkiness and healer dps rotations being boring. Aside from those two things, there's very little that needs adjusting. The only thing I can think of is making it less of a dps loss to weave oGCD and use Aetherflow for healing instead of Energy drain but that's a relatively small issue compared to the other two things.

As someone who has leveled literally everything to max and understands the core mechanics and rotations of every job, I can vouch that the main issues with sch are what were mentioned prior: pet clunkiness at times, and that fact that all healers had their dps gutted to a bare bones state.

Of the 3 healers I play ast the least. It just doesn't mesh all that well with my more dps focused mentality. The card weaving for extra party damage is nice but I enjoy being able to crunch in dps without the micro-management of the cards. I often keep moving the fairy around boss arenas to accommodate movement, but that's it.

I'm a stubborn old man with whm. I let regens do a lot of the work and supplement them with benison, lilies, and/or oGCD heals as needed. You'd be impressed at how much healing a regen + tetra on a tank in a pull does when paired alongside holy spam.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

My SCH is at 80, though, and I have an idea of how the class functions in difficult content. How about instead of deflecting, you address my concern? You see, I have this pet peeve: When someone literally has no frame of reference for a strong opinion on something, I call them out on it.

So either give me more details or stop parroting information you probably got from someone who does content you're not able to set foot in in the first place. Because I know why SCH is on the weaker side of the healers and I also know its stronger points as well. I know that you don't and that you also don't do content where those strengths and weaknesses matter. So please. Let me into that thought process of yours.

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I am amazed on how easily you got triggered by 2 sentences to the point where you had to reach into lodestone of mine, to make incredible important point of your counter argument on my unimportant comment in a thread where nobody from SE is ever going to see.

My point still stands even if im 6 levels away from max lvl.
SCH is playable but that does not mean he is good, and by the comment previously posted in this thread by saying its in bad shape i meant that mechanically this job is a train wreck, with fairy responding slower than 20 action macro and the job itself having misleading potencies that are in reality 30% weaker, this kind of bug is just absurd. So yeah schoolar is in a bad shape and its also underperforming in comparison to other healers, both in rdps and heals. thats it

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

and the job itself having misleading potencies that are in reality 30% weaker, this kind of bug is just absurd.

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This is not a bug...

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I am amazed on how easily you got triggered by 2 sentences to the point where you had to reach into lodestone of mine, to make incredible important point of your counter argument on my unimportant comment in a thread where nobody from SE is ever going to see.

My point still stands even if im 6 levels away from max lvl.
SCH is playable but that does not mean he is good, and by the comment previously posted in this thread by saying its in bad shape i meant that mechanically this job is a train wreck, with fairy responding slower than 20 action macro and the job itself having misleading potencies that are in reality 30% weaker, this kind of bug is just absurd. So yeah schoolar is in a bad shape and its also underperforming in comparison to other healers, both in rdps and heals. thats it

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Scholar is good in both department.
Good healing doesn't mean crazy HPs. It means good mitigation and healing when needeed. As for rDPS, he is behind indeed. But not by a enourmous margin. Which is perfectly okay. We can't ask absolute perfect balance damage wise. Besides, when paired with AST, it actually shines because it's healing toolkit works really well with AST.

What's wrong with scholar currently isn't it's efficiency as a job or a healer, it is indeed the clunky fairy ghosting and "how" it's played, but that problem is the same for all healers.

As for the pet potency, it's not a bug. That's because the fairy healing doesn't scale the same as the owner, which is something that exists for a very long time. But it displays misleading potencies for the new players who don't know about that.

Faerie potency scaling I think is 2/3 of regular potency, but this isn't new to Shadowbringers. So Embrace is actually 100 potency, while regen is 200 (per tick/3 seconds).

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

For what it's worth as a heads up, potency displaying as something different in tooltip from the actual potency is fairly common and definitely not limited to just pet actions. None of the BLM fire spells display the actual potency for example. They at least have a tooltip for astral fire that says fire spell potency is increased, which is a step up from pet potencies, but it still says nothing about by how much it gets increased.

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I believe it's like this:
When in
Astral Fire I 140% fire, 90% ice
Astral Fire II 160% fire, 80% ice
Astral Fire III 180% fire, 70% ice

Umbral Ice I 90% fire, 100% ice
Umbral Ice II 80% fire, 100% ice
Umbral Ice III 70% fire, 100% ice

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Originally Posted by Lethros

I believe it's like this:
When in
Astral Fire I 140% fire, 90% ice
Astral Fire II 160% fire, 80% ice
Astral Fire III 180% fire, 70% ice

Umbral Ice I 90% fire, 100% ice
Umbral Ice II 80% fire, 100% ice
Umbral Ice III 70% fire, 100% ice

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Oh, I know. The community has figured those numbers out long ago. It'd just be nice if there was a tooltip somewhere that said it.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Oh, I know. The community has figured those numbers out long ago. It'd just be nice if there was a tooltip somewhere that said it.

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maybe those numbers have been found the same elsewhere, but I got them from my own interest and enjoyment of figuring out what they are. So for me there was something in not everything being revealed. I was waiting for Prey Online in Azys Lla when I looked into it myself through damage numbers

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Pet potencies are constant too, so I'm unsure why you chose that as your second difference between them. Pet potency is just as consistent and irrelevant in the long run.

The actual main difference from things like Astral Fire is that the potency listed in the tooltip for pets is actually accurate. It's just that the end result is calculated based on the pet's stats instead of yours which in turn are based on your stats. It's not quite as simple as just changing the potency number that is displayed on the pet's ability tooltips since that number is technically accurate. A note about pet stats on the Summon I and Summon II tooltips would be nice, of course.

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I didn't say the potencies were constant, I called them a base with a constant buff. That's why I said they were a bit different. BLM's are usually under a constant buff, both from their stance and Enochian.

I can't think of a better way to explain it other then it's the constant buff that makes it different. Unlike other jobs, a BLM's buff is activated upon a cast of either a fire or blizzard spell, so you can't really gauge them without that buff. Pets dont have this stipulation.

Truthfully, it would be nice if they would add a bit of an addendum to the tool tip to show the potencies while in each stance, and their level. But it's not as difficult to figure out as the pet potencies.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I didn't say the potencies were constant, I called them a base with a constant buff. That's why I said they were a bit different. BLM's are usually under a constant buff, both from their stance and Enochian.

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You said that in the first part of your post, yes, and I didn't disagree with that.

What I was talking about was when you then veered off into a second statement: "But unlike the pets, since the buff is a constant it becomes irrelevant in the long run, similar to Dragoon's buff." Having potency constancy and thus also being irrelevant in the long run is not unlike pets. They are very much constant. Even more so than Astral Fire since there's no way for bad gameplay to result in the loss of any potency.

I think this is maybe a case of poor grammar resulting in saying something you didn't mean? I.e. without the phrase "but unlike the pets" it just becomes a continuation of your first statement on the buff itself rather than a second statement comparing constancy of Astral Fire buff and pet potencies.

All that said, this difference of buff vs. base potency is still not the main difference between the two. It's that the potency of pet abilities is actually correct, but the output is based off the pet stats and only indirectly off of the character stats.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

You said that in the first part of your post, yes, and I didn't disagree with that.

What I was talking about was when you then veered off into a second statement: "But unlike the pets, since the buff is a constant it becomes irrelevant in the long run, similar to Dragoon's buff." Having potency constancy and thus also being irrelevant in the long run is not unlike pets. They are very much constant. Even more so than Astral Fire since there's no way for bad gameplay to result in the loss of any potency.

I think this is maybe a case of poor grammar resulting in saying something you didn't mean? I.e. without the phrase "but unlike the pets" it just becomes a continuation of your first statement on the buff itself rather than a second statement comparing constancy of Astral Fire buff and pet potencies.

All that said, this difference of buff vs. base potency is still not the main difference between the two. It's that the potency of pet abilities is actually correct, but the output is based off the pet stats and only indirectly off of the character stats.

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I think you are confusing the consistancy I was referencing. But ultimately the understanding was there. So in the end we agreed.