Thornmarch Hard Mode critical bug, SE thinks there's insufficient information.

Hopefully it gets some traction here because whoever moderates the Bug forum isn't getting the picture.

Apparently since 5.1 (the point they "nerfed" the encounter) when King Mog transitions and arrives he's doing massive damage via Memento Moogle that a normal lvl 50 at the proper item level simply can't survive.

Multiple people have confirmed it.

Pic of the damage

Video of it happening

Video from 2014 showing the same attack in the same situation only doing 131 damage (Protect and stoneskin still existed at the time and should have roughly accounted for 20% damage reduction)

In the video provided, the poster said in the 1st phase (before the king comes out) they didnt kill all the moogles. The moogles need killed before both phases happen.

I recently did this with my friend who was in just the i90 AF gear, and he survived just fine, barely hurt. The reddit poster keeps thinking "kill the moogles" is a reply to the 2nd phase, which it also applies to the 1st phase. Its still possible it may be a lot in certain cases, even with the adds dead, but I havent personaly encountered it, and the post, nor the video confirm all moogles were dead in the 1st phase. (I remember my groups wiping constantly on the fight when the 1st moogles werent dead, back when i was i80~ish in 2.1, due to this very same mechanic)

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Matchakuchen

Guys, its the transition memento mori.

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Thats the one im talking about.
Granted the friend I brought was nearly i90, not i120.
but the speed of killing isnt what matters, but the number left alive.
which in that video linked, the owner of the video said not all moogles were killed before the transition to the next phase. (yes, the 1st one, the transition one, not the final one during phase2)
when this fight was brought into the game 2.1, the average person was in darklight gear (i70) as that was basic tome gear. the weekly limit tome gear was i90, and crystal tower gear was i80.
The damage may have increased, which im not doubting, but the video presented wasnt a good video, because it didnt do the mechanic right.
as for the reddit post, the 1st post wasnt clear, due to repeating "Im talking about the 1st memento mori, not the 2nd!" when ppl are talking about the 1st.
I stopped reading, since the original poster was ignoring what ppl said. (just as you almost did with this comment I just quoted. but at least you try to mention the speed at which u killed the moogles, which makes it sound like u did kill them, so at least that addresses the actual question people needed to know first.)
But since its dmg isnt going up for leaving moogles alive, its most likely reading that all moogles havent been killed. You're correct.
As another poster mentioned, there's a form you(they) need to fill out, and i cant say they filled it out wrong, but even slightly incorrect information, or missing information, leads to the post getting ignored as "not enough information".

EDIT#2: They probably wont fix it, because of the echo leading to having enough HP to survive it.
Its why so much old savage tier content isnt fixed, despite tanks, and healers losing out on needed cooldowns, and DPS losing plenty of options.
They know the echo will cover the difference.

If you skip to kill the adds mogs... it's not surprising... why do people imagine fight are just a zerg fest where you can skip to kill adds?

1. Not only adds have to be killed
2. But adds have to be killed in a certain order preferably

Yes I read the thread in reddit but they are really unclear about the fact if yes or no they killed enough adds. Since many HL overgeared imagine they can skip everything, I wouldn't be surprised they didn't not killed enough adds.

Memento is a OS mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

2. But adds have to be killed in a certain order preferably

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HAVE to is a strong word :P Back in 2.1 Ive had groups kill them in just about every different order. We just mostly agreed the most annoying ones were BLM, WHM, and BRD. So we liked killing them, to make the fight less annoying.
(On a side note, we once had the boss wipe us, cuz the main tank of PLD, was in sword oath, and his damage in sword oath was enough to enrage the boss in the 2nd phase each time. It wasnt until the 4th wipe, someone checked the dps, and saw not a single person attacked the boss, other than the PLD lol)

Guys, its the transition memento mori.
on top of that it happens synched and unsynched no matter how fast you kill the moogle in first phase before the dance part.

I am baffled that you guys still don't get it.

it does 3800 DMG no matter what and can kill under ilvl90 people which is a problem since the min ilvl is 54.

It's really not that hard. and you can see in old videos of that trial that it used to do only 200 DMG during Transition.

You have to follow their bug report template. If you don't, they will file it under insufficient info.

Just to make myself an idea, I run it solo unsync.

Memento do 3546 unsync on Hard Mode
Memento do 30 000 unsync on Extrem.

Doesn't sound crazy at this step.

I still have to check how many HP we really have at ilvl54 (with 50-90 gears) and reserve my final opinion for after this check.

I just hope it is not again heals complaing because they didn't buff the team. There are really but really a lot -too many- who don't make their damn job properly and only DPS.

EDIT : CT1 synchro gives around 6200HP to a RDM. With 4 ilvl100 pieces (atma weapon include and 3 scylla, nothing else, ilvl38), I already have 7448HP as BLM. Since team with eight players have a buff of HP, I really wonder how 3546 damage can kill people...

So did a few checks

Definitely 3.8k dmg regardless of number of moogles alive or not for transition.

At min ilv 54 as a Dnc I have 2947, this would one shot me, this cannot be allowed as a hard mode trial can end up with 2 whms in roulette and they no longer have mitigation tools that early anymore (RIP stoneskin) so one shots are not allowed so long as that is possible.

At ilv70 I have 3508 hp as dnc still too low,
At ilv80 I have 3947 hp just enough to live, this is Mog extreme levels of ilv requirement so yea definitely a bug most likely having Mog ex damage values instead of Mog hm version.

This isn't too dire a bug because how msq is structured with giving gear on top of ilv 90 gear from job quests (which if they aren't in that at minimum left side bigger issues are needing to be addressed to that player), but it is definitely a bug that needs sorting out.

I don't know how they were able to screw that up..

what ilvl is that scholar in the vid? with 3800 hp which is VERY low certainly compared to the rest. And the purpose is to heal everyone back up asap which didnt happen. I dont see anything special in that vid.

To do the fight normally, you need to make sure at least 4 of the lesser moogles are dead before the king reaches 64%. If you do not do this, the Memento Moogle that is triggered at that point will do greatly increased damage that will kill any level 50s. Many trigger happy groups fail to do this, which isn't helped by the king becoming targetable before any of the lessers do.

At least, this is how I determined the fight to work originally over the course of many DF roulettes landing on it. Maybe something's been altered?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

To do the fight normally, you need to make sure at least 4 of the lesser moogles are dead before the king reaches 64%. If you do not do this, the Memento Moogle that is triggered at that point will do greatly increased damage that will kill any level 50s. Many trigger happy groups fail to do this, which isn't helped by the king becoming targetable before any of the lessers do.

At least, this is how I determined the fight to work originally over the course of many DF roulettes landing on it. Maybe something's been altered?

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It has nothing to do with the second phase of the fight.
It is the transition from -> kill the little moogles -> they summon her king -> king casts first raid wide damage

The damage of the first memento is way to high for the minimum ilvl.
And yes. With all moogles dead in the first phase.

Oh ok. Yeah, that's unusual behavior.

Regarding the Bug Report:
I got a message ingame for more informations and gave it to them already, it was another template than here on the forum but it seemed like they also thought I was talking about the second phase lmao...
lets see how this turns out.
Ofc still playable and clearable but still not okay for undergeared newbies.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

what ilvl is that scholar in the vid? with 3800 hp which is VERY low certainly compared to the rest..

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Remember that min ilvl for that fight is 54. So it is extremely possible to see someone there with sub 3800 health.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

EDIT : CT1 synchro gives around 6200HP to a RDM. With 4 ilvl100 pieces (atma weapon include and 3 scylla, nothing else, ilvl38), I already have 7448HP as BLM. Since team with eight players have a buff of HP, I really wonder how 3546 damage can kill people...

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CT1 syncs you down to ~100 ilvl, which is double the minimum of this. That's actually the reason we players can absolutely steamroll the Crystal Tower alliances. We're twice as strong as we were when we were doing it at 50.

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CT1 syncs you down to ~100 ilvl, which is double the minimum of this. That's actually the reason we players can absolutely steamroll the Crystal Tower alliances. We're twice as strong as we were when we were doing it at 50.

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There's actually no item level sync on any of the 24 man raids, meaning the max ilvl is whatever the cap was at that particular character level, which for Crystal Tower was 130. Labyrinth of the Ancients expected fresh ilvl 50s (at the time of release) minimum, which is why it gets steamrolled now (occasional Atomos mishaps aside). Because of this, the third raid in each set of raids is always the most difficult, at least statistically, because despite expecting a higher ilvl, the maximum ilvl we can be isn't any higher than the others in its set. (That's not to say stuff like World of Darkness is *hard*, but it still can't be outgeared quite as much as the first two.)

And the difference between IL 130 and 50 is much more significant than, say, Rabanastre's 305 minimum compared to the maximum of 400 you can be. It still makes Rabanastre a lot easier than it was at release, but still not quite the level of potential steamroll as LotA/Syrcus, and Void Ark to some extent too.

reprisal + addle + sacred soil + succor it lmao

2x whm with a team with 4 sams thats quite unfortunate

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You have to follow their bug report template. If you don't, they will file it under insufficient info.

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Too many people don't follow this.
Even if there's next to no information that's actually needed from it in regards to the bug, it's still something needed for SE to bother to look at.

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Originally Posted by MPK

2x whm with a team with 4 sams thats quite unfortunate

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that gave me a chuckle. (IDK why WHM wasnt the shield healer, with spells like protect, and stoneskin. Nor was benison called Stoneskin, etc)
They give holy spells to PLD, like "Holy Spirit" so as to not just call it "Holy", but then have stuff like Clemency, rather than "Knights Cure" or something along those lines, to sound closer to classic spells/abilities. But yeah, unrelated.

It's not a bug here is why. In the video you didn't kill the little moogles before damaging the king past a certain point. If you trigger Memento before you kill at least 6 little of them its going to do high damage.

If you talking about when the sch died when the king moggle came out no mitigation was used such as sch shields, soil, or reprisal on the king. If you going in with low gear you going to need to use some of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zumi

It's not a bug here is why. In the video you didn't kill the little moogles before damaging the king past a certain point. If you trigger Memento before you kill at least 6 little of them its going to do high damage.

If you talking about when the sch died when the king moggle came out no mitigation was used such as sch shields, soil, or reprisal on the king. If you going in with low gear you going to need to use some of that.

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Big brain.
This whole issue is about the transition BEFORE you have to kill every moogle and then the king.
literally the second he appears he cast the first memento mori which deals 3800 DMG, before 5.1/5.2. it would do under 300 dmg.

no brain acrobatics needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matchakuchen

Big brain.
This whole issue is about the transition BEFORE you have to kill every moogle and then the king.
literally the second he appears he cast the first memento mori which deals 3800 DMG, before 5.1/5.2. it would do under 300 dmg.

no brain acrobatics needed.

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Its amazing people still aren't grasping this. . . It's like for some reason they don't want it to be true.

IT"S LITERALLY THE FIRST MOVE THE KING DOES WHEN HE APPEARS FOLKS.

As in after the minion phase, you kill them all and then they revive the FIRST time and circle him banging their drums.

This is not some ultimate attack that should be one shotting people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matchakuchen

Big brain.
This whole issue is about the transition BEFORE you have to kill every moogle and then the king.
literally the second he appears he cast the first memento mori which deals 3800 DMG, before 5.1/5.2. it would do under 300 dmg.

no brain acrobatics needed.

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Like I said no mitigation was used when the king came out, the sch did not use soil or succor. If they are going in with a lower gear level you need to mitigate ultimate primal attacks and not do nothing. People learn that many bosses have ultimate attacks when they transition to their final phase and you should be using your shields and damage reduction abilities like soil.

This particular fight the damage can be can be out geared but if you do not have gear then you must use healer shields and damage reducing abilities. For new players its basically the same as doing it when the fight was new and you had to use shields to survive.

I just watched a video from 6 years ago where the sch used shields and soil and it hit people between 1.5k and 2k.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like I said no mitigation was used when the king came out, the sch did not use soil or succor. If they are going in with a lower gear level you need to mitigate ultimate primal attacks and not do nothing. People learn that many bosses have ultimate attacks when they transition to their final phase and you should be using your shields and damage reduction abilities like soil.

This particular fight the damage can be can be out geared but if you do not have gear then you must use healer shields and damage reducing abilities. For new players its basically the same as doing it when the fight was new and you had to use shields to survive.

I just watched a video from 6 years ago where the sch used shields and soil and it hit people between 1.5k and 2k.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCcbKY7d0dc 2014 it does 131 with stoneskin lol

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like I said no mitigation was used when the king came out, the sch did not use soil or succor. If they are going in with a lower gear level you need to mitigate ultimate primal attacks and not do nothing.

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The item level on the duty finder states around 54. If they're health was around 3.8k their item level would be 80 to 90. Mitigation shouldn't be needed at that item level. I believe they have about 1000 more health points then they would otherwise have.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like I said no mitigation was used when the king came out, the sch did not use soil or succor. If they are going in with a lower gear level you need to mitigate ultimate primal attacks and not do nothing. People learn that many bosses have ultimate attacks when they transition to their final phase and you should be using your shields and damage reduction abilities like soil.

This particular fight the damage can be can be out geared but if you do not have gear then you must use healer shields and damage reducing abilities. For new players its basically the same as doing it when the fight was new and you had to use shields to survive.

I just watched a video from 6 years ago where the sch used shields and soil and it hit people between 1.5k and 2k.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Video of it happening

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Zumi, if you did watch the video from Deceptus as you claim, you clearly saw the party of the video creator knocking out all of the Moogles before the King came out. The result should have been Memento Moogle doing a pitiful amount of damage in which the whole party survives against the attack. However, it does a lot more damage than it should. [I quoted Deceptus's video link for reference as well.]

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCcbKY7d0dc 2014 it does 131 with stoneskin lol

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They took stoneskin out of the game though. So you have to use what is still in the game like succor.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

They took stoneskin out of the game though. So you have to use what is still in the game like succor.

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The 1000 HP they got from their additional item level is by itself mitigation.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Zumi, if you did watch the video from Deceptus as you claim, you clearly saw the party of the video creator knocking out all of the Moogles before the King came out. The result should have been Memento Moogle doing a pitiful amount of damage in which the whole party survives against the attack. However, it does a lot more damage than it should. [I quoted Deceptus's video link for reference as well.]

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I saw it and the thing is the abilities in the game change over time. This is an ARR fight, we do not have protect anymore that cut a lot of damage, we do not have stoneskin which could eat almost the full amount of damage. But we do have sch and ast shields which we can use instead of protect/stoneskin which are not in the game anymore. All the sch had to do was cast succor and use soil and get through the fight. Because even at release an unmitigated attack was around 2.5-3k with just protect assuming no stoneskin or shields.

Basically what it boils down to is cast succor use soil in the current version of the game before the attack goes off.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Basically what it boils down to is cast succor use soil in the current version of the game before the attack goes off.

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so if duty finder puts you with 2 whitemages the whitemages simply have to learn succor and sacred soil to complete the duty ?

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Originally Posted by Rae88

The 1000 HP they got from their additional item level is by itself mitigation.

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They also lost protect which has made every old fight in the game aoe hit much harder than it use to.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Because even at release an unmitigated attack was around 2.5-3k with just protect assuming no stoneskin or shields.

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Even assuming your numbers are correct, which they aren't, an unmitigated attack without stoneskin still shouldn't kill the scholar in the video. Protect is 20% damage reduction, 3000*1.25 =3750, which is less than the scholar's health.

But here's your chance to fudge the numbers even more : )

EDIT: I also don't know how an attack with shields and soil does 2k and without does 3k. Sacred soil is 10%, Succor is 125% a cure potency of 180, so I very much doubt those add up to a thousand extra damage points shielded in that fight with level 50 players TBH. Even with stoneskin ... maybe a thousand on healers. Possibly? MAYBE?

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

so if duty finder puts you with 2 whitemages the whitemages simply have to learn succor and sacred soil to complete the duty ?

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You can reprisal it from the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You can reprisal it from the tanks.

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Reprisal is 10% damage reduction. Min Ilevel healers are 2800hp. Damage is 3800 hp.

Reprisal takes that down to 3500.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

Reprisal is 10% damage reduction. Min Ilevel healers are 2800hp. Damage is 3800 hp.

Reprisal takes that down to 3500.

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How you get that number? With full left side at i45 without any accessories (i know min ilevel is i54), i still get 3.6k hp. Only explanation I have why his hp was so low in the first place was cuz they didnt wear a hat in the video or some armor piece broke

https://i.imgur.com/Ap2NR19.png
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1D0FU

I mean I guess you can strip till you're technically i54 with 1 item but what do you expect at that point?

So yes @Zumi is right. Any mitigation would've sufficed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I saw it and the thing is the abilities in the game change over time. This is an ARR fight, we do not have protect anymore that cut a lot of damage, we do not have stoneskin which could eat almost the full amount of damage. But we do have sch and ast shields which we can use instead of protect/stoneskin which are not in the game anymore. All the sch had to do was cast succor and use soil and get through the fight. Because even at release an unmitigated attack was around 2.5-3k with just protect assuming no stoneskin or shields.

Basically what it boils down to is cast succor use soil in the current version of the game before the attack goes off.

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Yeah, stoneskin -could- almost eat the full damage back then, because the damage back then was closer to 800, not 3800. Moogle mog is literally doing 3k more damage on his opening attack than pre 5.1, it's a huge difference, and its a straight up bug. Contrast Leviathan, the primal coming right after, doing basically < 1000 damage if you fufill the criteria to not die to his ultimate. Mog is doing nearly 4x on a 'fufilled the anti-death criteria' ultimate then every primal that comes after it. It's a bug, and considering its potential to one-shot people at or close to the min-ilvl, it's clearly not intended.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

They also lost protect which has made every old fight in the game aoe hit much harder than it use to.

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To me it seems like after every expansion you take less and less damage from everything, not more.

While it does become "normal" for phase transition AoEs to be potentially lethal without mitigation stacking at higher levels, having that be the case here is kind of silly when it used to tickle as previously mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Video of it happening

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Working as intended.