(Relics) What is the lowest-development-cost content we'd still find fun?

So, let's say you're a content manager for XIV and have a small amount of development time you can spend to make time-intensive content. This time-intensive content is expected and, though often criticized if overly "grindy", is generally lauded as a well-liked component of the game and an iconic part of its life-cycle. This can be related to Relics, specifically, or anything similar.

Note: If you develop something for the longer term, you can draw in slightly more development time, but have to deal with player concerns over delays. Excuse these delays as you will.

How would you try to create the most development-cost-efficient content you can for the above purpose? What content would you reuse? How would you link these pieces of reused content? How would you stimulate player interest and participation through the means, rather than merely the rewards, of participation?

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Alternatively, from the player perspective alone, what content would you find fun in Relic grinds? Where does the border between "satisfying" and "overly grindy" lie? What can the devs learn from prior iterations of Relic grinds? What novel approaches might they take? To what extent would you forgive delays for greater efficiency or enjoyability in such content later?

Have at it.


Common opinions/findings thus far... (Hidden as not to unavoidably bias any initial posts)

1. Only the best of Eureka, or better than previous iterations, if at all.
2. Upscaled, rather than level-synced, content would rejuvenate huge amounts of currently wasted resource to potentially tremendous development-efficiency.
3. We should have multiple paths for progressing Relics and similar tasks.
4. Finely difficulty-scaling combat can be fun for a wide range of players and can help to compact a lot of combat fun into relatively little grind while still taking longer due to difficulty.
5. Let's make use of presently lackluster systems, e.g. Treasure Maps!

I grinded my way through eureka and it was the absolute worst experience I have had with this game. Eureka was garbage content because it didn't play to the dev team's strengths. Simply put, they suck at making open world content. This game isn't designed for it and they have no idea how to make it work. What they are good at however, is designing very controlled encounters, which is to say, boss fights. To that end, I'd love to see something like a boss rush mode. I imagine it'd work something like this:

You're trying to upgrade your relic by imprinting it with the memories of your past battles (not unlike what you did during the last step of the heavensward relic quest). To that end, you use those memory crystals from the current relic quest to create a simulation of every boss fight in the game. When you go into the simulation you get your relic weapon and a special set of simulation armor. Both would be upgradeable.

When you enter the sim it puts you up against a random boss. You'd be given 60-90 minutes to clear as many boss fights as possible. There would be multiple queues for this, each of which pull from different pools of boss fights and offer more or less exp depending on which pool its pulling from. Going in order from least rewarding to most rewarding you'd have;

1) A standard 4 man queue that pulls boss fights from every dungeon in the game.
2) A standard 8 man queue that pulls from every normal/hard mode primal.
3) An extreme 8 man queue that pulls from every extreme primal in the game and finally,
4) An 8 man savage queue that pulls from every savage fight in the game.

You wouldn't be leveled down or synced when you go into these fights, you'd have your full level 80 kits, but the bosses would have their numbers brought up to compensate. No new mechanics or anything, this system would already expect you to know the mechanics for every fight in the game so adding new wrinkles into that would be massive overkill, just give them bigger numbers.

Every time you fight and kill a boss, you get some exp which raises your sim level up to a max of say, 100 (or even higher if you want to make it grindier, the max number of levels is mostly arbitrary). The higher your sim level, the faster and easier you can take down bosses and the more bosses you can clear within the time limit. At certain level break points (like say, every 25% of whatever the max level is) your gear would go up a number of ilevels in the real world.

In order to encourage players to deal with some of the harder bosses and not just bail the moment they get say, T9 or pepsi man in the savage roulette, boss rewards would be scaled up or down depending on the “difficulty tier” of the fight. The fights would be automatically assigned to a tier based on data collected from players including the average time spent in the fight, the number of wipes the average team suffers during the course of the fight and the number of disbands that occur whenever a team runs into a specific boss.

This game has a ton of fantastic boss fights that are mostly rotting away in dungeons that people don't bother playing any more. I'd hope a system like this would be easy enough to make since it wouldn't really require too many new assets, it'd just plop players down in the boss room that already exists and it would get some use out of those fights that are just sitting there, ignored and unused.

There hasn't been a relic grind in FFXIV that's been too grindy for me—Eureka was grindy enough that I only wanted to do it once (as opposed to previous relics where I've done multiples), but I was still more than happy to do it (and had lots of fun doing so).

I'd be completely fine with grinds as lengthy as FFXI's legendary weapon grinds (with the caveat that the weapons should have upgrade paths available such that they can remain relevant for years, not just the last few months of an expansion).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, let's say you're a content manager for XIV and have a small amount of development time you can spend to make time-intensive content. This time-intensive content is expected and, though often criticized if overly "grindy", is generally lauded as a well-liked component of the game and an iconic part of its life-cycle. This can be related to Relics, specifically, or anything similar.

Note: If you develop something for the longer term, you can draw in slightly more development time, but have to deal with player concerns over delays. Excuse these delays as you will.

How would you try to create the most development-cost-efficient content you can for the above purpose? What content would you reuse? How would you link these pieces of reused content? How would you stimulate player interest and participation through the means, rather than merely the rewards, of participation?

_____________________________________

Alternatively, from the player perspective alone, what content would you find fun in Relic grinds? Where does the border between "satisfying" and "overly grindy" lie? What can the devs learn from prior iterations of Relic grinds? What novel approaches might they take? To what extent would you forgive delays for greater efficiency or enjoyability in such content later?

Have at it.

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Maybe I'd tie relics to treasure maps so it would be more Indiana Jones esque. Not only do you get great loot from treasure hunts and earn good gil, you can earn relics and it's upgrades over time. This would encourages players to cooperate with their own FC instead of the duty finder. But at the same time I would put a system in place to prevent bad-RNG from players getting relics, so perhaps a token system would also be in place so players could manually trade for relics if they do enough treasure maps.

This idea is based of Runescape's treasure map system where all the best stuff in the game could obtained from them.

Honestly I'd probably have more steps that function like the light gathering phase of a relic. Yes, I know some people don't like it, but it really does encapsulate what I would love to see from relics: A variety of ways to accomplish it, being able to do it while doing your everyday grinding, and an encouragement to do more difficult or longer content by making it give more light.

Now, that said, I'd probably make a few changes to it. For starters, trying to encourage a greater variety of activities. We're creatures of efficiency, and if a most effective method is found we'll grind the fun out of it. There's a few ways one could go about it: Grant more bonuses to things that have an inherent limit like beast tribe dailies, roulettes, challenge logs, heck maybe even wondrous tails, or simply have the amount of light an activity gives go down as it's repeated. Something that's more along the lines of "Go see all the world has to offer" than "Go grind Haukke Manor 70 times."

I'd also add some relic-specific content sprinkled throughout. Doesn't have to be anything major, don't need a new trial for every step or something. Something simple perhaps like a spawned open world mob, and make it different for each weapon. If using re-used mob assets it shouldn't be TOO expensive to do so.

I think the Moogle Treasure Hunt thing they've been doing near the end of patches lately is basically the answer.

I get tired of the hate Eureka got. it was by far my favorite content ever in this game. It offered exploration though dangerous, open world area to explore. Can't say that about dungeons or raids. By the time I was finished I had the best summoner weapon in the game. I had some good gear, lots of fun items from mounts to minions, glamors. I got tomes far faster then grinding roulettes every day. Plus it had a good story behind it. Of course it was hard and had some grind to it but no more than any other grind in this game. Not to mention free materia. and I made many millions from it. And I made new friends.

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Originally Posted by Lainmyst

I get tired of the hate Eureka got. it was by far my favorite content ever in this game. It offered exploration though dangerous, open world area to explore. Can't say that about dungeons or raids. By the time I was finished I had the best summoner weapon in the game. I had some good gear, lots of fun items from mounts to minions, glamors. I got tomes far faster then grinding roulettes every day. Plus it had a good story behind it. Of course it was hard and had some grind to it but no more than any other grind in this game. Not to mention free materia. and I made many millions from it. And I made new friends.

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I don't understand the sudden love for Eureka. Pagos was active punishment to the players.

The grand roulette

That would be all I need to play this game indefinitely as long as new dungeons get added.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I don't understand the sudden love for Eureka. Pagos was active punishment to the players.

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I think it's because Hydatos was generally seen as the most decent iteration of the formula and it left a more positive impression that covered up any ire Pagos might have caused. Though that in part owes a LOT to the Baldesion Arsenal which is what most people praise when they mention Eureka more often than not. Personally speaking if they improve upon Hydatos and give us a new version of BA-like content I would be interested in seeing Eureka again. However if they pull another Pagos I'll be skipping it entirely.

Personally though I wouldn't mind a return to overworld fate farming for the Relic, with new mobs and such spawning in the old zones in relation to it. If we're going to go extremely low cost for the Relic, then make use of existing assets and bringing the few things people enjoyed about Eureka to them would be a good start.

In terms of just general low cost content however, why not bring back the holiday event instances for a time as Gates for the Gold Saucer? You can shuffle through them each week so things keep fresh if need be, but since those are already coded and made it'd be fairly simple to recode them to work as Gates.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I don't understand the sudden love for Eureka. Pagos was active punishment to the players.

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Pagos was by far the weakest part but it still had its fun moments, and there were three and a half other parts to Eureka. It's not like it was all pagos all the time.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Pagos was by far the weakest part but it still had its fun moments, and there were three and a half other parts to Eureka. It's not like it was all pagos all the time.

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If you couldn't get through Pagos because you couldn't find people with identical levels as you, then you'd never see what the other parts of Eureka were like.

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Originally Posted by Edax

If you couldn't get through Pagos because you couldn't find people with identical levels as you, then you'd never see what the other parts of Eureka were like.

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Going into Pagos over a month late, I still had no problem finding people of similar levels. If anything, it was far easier to find them there than in Anemos. And grinding camps felt a fair bit better to me than just cycling the map, underleveled half the time, according to NM spawns.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I don't understand the sudden love for Eureka. Pagos was active punishment to the players.

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Pagos taught me that I actually have a hereditary condition, that I got from my mother.
Turns out, I have worse circulation in my legs than most people, and I only found out after seeing a doctor when I was having blood vessels in my legs burst due to sitting down for too long during the grind of pagos.

It... It really was punishment...

After 20 years of gaming, (and in my youth, I used to play Runescape, which is all grind), it was pagos that revealed it.
I check my ankles almost every day for those tell-tale blood spots, but they honestly haven't re-appeared since I finished pagos.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Going into Pagos over a month late, I still had no problem finding people of similar levels. If anything, it was far easier to find them there than in Anemos. And grinding camps felt a fair bit better to me than just cycling the map, underleveled half the time, according to NM spawns.

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That was the opposite case for me.

Back to the OP's original question: The merit system from XI.

All 80s and nothing left to do? Grind yourself some bonus stats. An extra 1% bonus damage on certain actions or weapon skills, for example.

The merit system from XI would not require any asset changes - it would only require some damage calculation changes, some additional tables on the characters, and a few other programmatic changes in the game's service layers that don't actually require the art team, the lore team, etc. UI team would need to get involved for a menu change, and that's it.

I could really go for some XI style weapons where they use new and old content together and there is not necessarily a particular order you need to do things in. Turning them in yes, but you can collect the items at any time in any order as long as certain requirements are met. They just need to keep their hands off fates. They have exhausted fate farming to the point that it just feels lazy when they inject them into content. Heck they had to give them their own currency and lock a whole lot of items behind them just to bribe people to be more active with fates in this expansion, I think that speaks volumes about how unwelcome they are.

Or, in the case of primals or other mobs, we could have mechanics that version 1 had, where doing certain combos broke Ifrit's horns which caused a change in something, idr what, but it did change something, but maybe having fights where things like that needed to be done could be a good way to do things.

Or they could reuse the city maps and make content similar to Dynamis that dropped gear and currency for gear upgrades from trash and bosses, which was just a great time back in its day.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Back to the OP's original question: The merit system from XI.

All 80s and nothing left to do? Grind yourself some bonus stats. An extra 1% bonus damage on certain actions or weapon skills, for example.

The merit system from XI would not require any asset changes - it would only require some damage calculation changes, some additional tables on the characters, and a few other programmatic changes in the game's service layers that don't actually require the art team, the lore team, etc. UI team would need to get involved for a menu change, and that's it.

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Oh, I second this too. Meriting always felt so much more rewarding than leveling or even getting gear sometimes.

First off I just want to say #NeverAgain for Eureka. The absolute worst content I've played in this game to date. I'll quit this game before ever doing something like that again. It was boring and it was extremely grindy to the point where I physically started to get sick from it in Pagos and had to pull back on the amount of time I was spending there. And at the end of it all the rewards were not even worth it. Relic designs got more ugly every step of the way and the final glow on the Hydatos relics was terrible and ruined the models that did look somewhat acceptable. I regret every last second I spent there and would take it all back if I could and just go play another game. THAT SAID what I did like about Eureka was the social aspects. People talking and joking in chat and in general making good as much they can on a terrible experience. The people were the only reason I kept playing it so a big thank you to everyone who made it bearable.

NOW as for future content I'd like to see more story, more story, and more story. I'm always down for story. Which is why I really like how this step has gone thus far. The look into Cid's past was a nice touch and I hope we get to see more of it. That solo instance was also a gem. If you need something more 'Hardcore' perhaps give us some new difficult boss fights, ect. You guys rock at those.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Maybe I'd tie relics to treasure maps so it would be more Indiana Jones esque. Not only do you get great loot from treasure hunts and earn good gil, you can earn relics and it's upgrades over time. This would encourages players to cooperate with their own FC instead of the duty finder. But at the same time I would put a system in place to prevent bad-RNG from players getting relics, so perhaps a token system would also be in place so players could manually trade for relics if they do enough treasure maps.

This idea is based of Runescape's treasure map system where all the best stuff in the game could obtained from them.

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Or here's a modification of my original idea. You get the relic and it has 5 universal upgrade slots. Any upgrade will bring it to the next level but the sequence at what you get the upgrades are not linear. The idea is that you can get one of the upgrades from Fate Grinding, one from Treasure Maps, one from Raiding, one from Deep Dungeons and one from Crafting. Thus fully upgrading a relic would require a whole variety of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Edax

If you couldn't get through Pagos because you couldn't find people with identical levels as you, then you'd never see what the other parts of Eureka were like.

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level is hardly a Issue every zone had people in it to help people out
Pagos wasn't a big wall people like to think it is

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Originally Posted by Edax

I don't understand the sudden love for Eureka. Pagos was active punishment to the players.

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There has always been many people who like eureka, I was in a party with a guy who was working on his last pagos weapon before eureka got any nerfs and he liked eureka and so do I.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

There has always been many people who like eureka, I was in a party with a guy who was working on his last pagos weapon before eureka got any nerfs and he liked eureka and so do I.

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I also made a pie chart long ago about the ratio of likes to dislike per player on a Pagos thread:

https://i.imgur.com/zNkQy4C.jpg

Man, I'm not gonna minimzie myself to being part of some Applied Microeconomics problem.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Man, I'm not gonna minimzie myself to being part of some Applied Microeconomics problem.

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Isn't your subscription, atop whatever narrative by which XIV's teams can spin that data, already being used as such? This is just a matter of putting your voice to something otherwise likely rife with inaccuracies.

For something like relics, there needs to be multiple ways to do the steps. And no one way should be superior, just a way to give variety. So nothing like harder content giving more progress or anything. Especially because these are supposed to be the non-raider path to getting decent gear.

And I'm with another poster. I will quit this game before I ever set foot in another Eureka. The took the worst of the EQ era gaming traits without any of the positives. I noped out in Pagos and never went back. I was pissed as hell that I wasn't able to get any of my Stormblood relics because they had locked it all behind that.

Just adding in that nobody I know liked doing Eureka. However everyone who did BA loved it. So really just make Eureka for BA instead of relics and it'll work. Keep relics out of it.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I also made a pie chart long ago about the ratio of likes to dislike per player on a Pagos thread:

https://i.imgur.com/zNkQy4C.jpg

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Maybe because people who liked Eureka were actually doing it instead of spending their time on the forum.

Pagos was frustating at first and quite a lot grindy but once you know some tricks it wasn't that bad at all. Sure I hated Pagos at first but because I didn't quite understand how to make the best of it.

They also nerf it at some point making it way more enjoyable by increasing crystals earned per fates and lowering aetherites level requirement (tho It didn't matter for me since I had them already).

Its nice how people are arguing Pagos being the worst when I never got past Anemos and its dumb fate train centered gameplay ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Honestly, if I could wish for something it would be 4 to 8 man instanced midcore group content. You know, dungeons that require you to play at least decent and give each player an opportunity to shine and really improve the groups progress, without resorting to "not everyone did the jumprope mechanics right and now you lost" type of gameplay that savage offers.

So to answer the thread question: How about recycling old dungeons, soup them up to really pose a threat, make tanks migrate damage, healers really heal and DPS actually having to think on their feet instead of playing down a rotation. We could introduce old concepts like CC (repose is still a thing yo!) and maybe even introduce small DPS checks every now and then. But I guess people rather afk in Anemos than step into Aurum Vale again for whatever reason...

They should use the concept of Eureka. Remove the FATE train. Remove the secondary leveling system. Remove the Elemental System. Center it around repeatable quests and collection logs. Have turn-ins that reward Treasure Maps(Solo-4-8 person varieties) and items that would trigger monster spawns (again Solo-4-8 person varieties).

I loved Eureka and was hoping for a new one in 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Alternatively, from the player perspective alone, what content would you find fun in Relic grinds? Where does the border between "satisfying" and "overly grindy" lie? What can the devs learn from prior iterations of Relic grinds? What novel approaches might they take? To what extent would you forgive delays for greater efficiency or enjoyability in such content later?

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I think they learned that a lot of players don't enjoy and complain to no end making the first step a battle with RNG and slapping it into a nefarious FATE grind. They learned that turning in an old relic that you worked your arse off for to skip that step entirely also was not the way to go about implementing a new relic quest.

I haven't done this quest yet, but I do know what it entails. Those of you asking for something more grindy are basically asking for a date with RNG. Is that what you really want? Because I hope most of you are aware that this is the path the SE typically uses.

I've done relics in every expansion thus far except SB, and I never really minded any of it, but I also come from a time when it was the intention of the devs that not all players would possess a relic in an mmo. That's not the case anymore. Now it's "everyone get's a relic!" And here we are. Granted, relics in MMOs that progress horizontally were kind of intended to be the last weapon you would ever own, and I think they mean a lot more in that type of game. In FFXIV though, your relic is destined to be your next glamour item. How hard do you think players really want to work for that before they bring out the tar and feathers?

The "grind" or lack thereof is a result of today's mmos. Player's don't want resistance. They want something that will at most take up an hour of their time and they can get on with business as normal. If that is the impression I get from the playerbase; it's not too tough to think that might have sunk in with the devs as well; especially when we look at how the game has progressed throughout the years. The old relic still tossed in a chance of failure at the very last step. It was low, but those are the kind of things this team cooks up. So be careful what you as for.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Those of you asking for something more grindy are basically asking for a date with RNG.

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Out of curiosity, why do you assume this? RNG is far from the only way to achieve artificial longevity. We've seen plenty of examples of that at this point.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I don't understand the sudden love for Eureka. Pagos was active punishment to the players.

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There's some minority remaining in this game who wish they had something like Eureka a lot sooner. A lot of the old-school farm mobs type of players gave up on XIV before it provided the type of content they wanted. Setting up spots to grind mobs, saying how much xp to next level in chat, moving on to another grind spot when the group is ready; it brought back good memories to the kind of players it was designed for. Unfortunately a lot of toxic players with no interest in the content flooded in there to leech the rewards while harassing people and complaining about things over the shout chat. On the occassions that people didn't ruin the experience it was quite fun sometimes just hanging with the same friends for long sessions and holding out hope of getting rare item drops such as the speed earrings and things to upgrade the magia board. I don't care for the xp loss punishment on respawn, but the rest of the design could be considered more rewarding than punishing depending on who you ask.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I don't understand the sudden love for Eureka. Pagos was active punishment to the players.

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There are more people who have enjoyed Eureka than what you will see on the forums. Back when Eureka was current content, if you said anything positive about Eureka on the forums the best outcome would be that your post would get ignored. More often than not, you would get the vitriol of the hate from people who didn't like the content. There's nothing like being called "part of the problem" for liking content that others do not like.

Since the hate for the content was so bad on these forums, most of us stayed quiet.

You're now seeing the "sudden love" for Eureka because we don't feel like we have to be silent.

I am one of those people who have enjoyed Eureka. I even got my first Relic before the Pagos nerf. The content, to me, isn't as bad as people described. Yes, the initial Elemental leveling is a chore, though if you could manage it, you could start getting required items for relics while leveling. Once you hit cap, getting the needed items seemed quick to me.

Though, I have a bit of a bias for me liking Eureka. To me, Eureka is a simplified and easier version of FFXI's Dynamis with FFXI's Abyssea elements tied into it. FFXI's Dynamis 1.0 was brutal and required multiple hours of post and prep work to do it. You only did Dynamis two to three times a week, at 2.5 hours a pop, but you spent 4-8 hours outside of each even to get back EXP/levels (there's a chance you would die at least once per run... four to five times if you were a RDM and/or BRD), craft or make gil to get food and items such as Re-raise hairpins, etc.

Of course, just because I liked Eureka, doesn't mean I think it is perfect. There's multiple QoL that should have been added, but were not: like adding Sneak Oils and Prism Powders to allow you to move silent and make yourself invisible so you wouldn't get agro from mobs going from place to place and adding in an EXP cap buffer in case you die, you didn't de-level immediately, etc.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I also made a pie chart long ago about the ratio of likes to dislike per player on a Pagos thread:

https://i.imgur.com/zNkQy4C.jpg

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Generally, the people most disappointed with something tend to be the most vocal about it - there's basically no reason to make a bunch of posts/topics saying 'I love <x>' as there's really not much to discuss about it, whereas discussion happens much easier from criticism. Also as someone else said, most people who enjoy the content tend to be actively doing it.

By nature, data gathered from the forums is going to swing in a negative direction due to it; I wouldn't be surprised that if SE were to do a full-game survey the results would look MUCH different from your pie chart, considering the forums is a tiny subset of the playerbase that heavily favors a constructive criticism environment to promote discussion. Almost everyone in my friend group loved Eureka (even Pagos) because it was great content for all eleven of us to hang out in VC and have fun together without being limited to 4/8 party sizes of people of dungeons/trials/maps, but none of them are going to take the time to visit the forums since they just enjoy the game casually. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a vast amount of people who enjoyed Pagos/Eureka and just remained silent.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

There are more people who have enjoyed Eureka than what you will see on the forums. Back when Eureka was current content, if you said anything positive about Eureka on the forums the best outcome would be that your post would get ignored. More often than not, you would get the vitriol of the hate from people who didn't like the content. There's nothing like being called "part of the problem" for liking content that others do not like.

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And yet the clear rates in the lucky bancho survey shows that you are still a minority. (And these numbers also included the people who only did it because they always do relic, who do it for the huge amount of items you get as a rewards and more.)

You can also say that not everyone that disliked it went to the forum to vent. The forum will always be a minority of the playerbase but it had been a good indicator..a lot of the content that was more disliked on the forum also was death quite fast ingame. The only saving grace for Eureka was that you could go there all alone and theoretically solo it. But it was still nerfed quite fast.

So yes the forum will never 100% give the view of everyone but if something is greatly disliked or greatly loved then its probably that way in the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Out of curiosity, why do you assume this? RNG is far from the only way to achieve artificial longevity. We've seen plenty of examples of that at this point.

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I'm not assuming. I am also not saying that is what players want; but by virtue of SEs history, players are 'asking' for a run-in with RNG. If you want to Goldilocks this content to where the grind is 'just right', good luck. Our playerbase is far too diverse for that. The abundance of examples you refer to can all be categorized into three different ways I can think of that SE instills longevity into their content: Loot lockout; tome weekly limit; and the random number generator. One or more of these three have to be implemented or players will devour the content whole.

You ask the question of what's a feasible grind for us; but how about the devs? How much time should they poor into new content that does not use any of the aforementioned methods? Knowing that whether it's two months or six that this content is developed, it will be consumed in a matter of days? This resource time and management is also a grind, and the demand that the devs face never lets up.

There's another alternative: No relic at all. Kind of like Deep Dungeon. Vastly popular, huge repeatable factor, lots of rewards... Gone. When things like this happen, I am quick to remind players about the demand for Viera, housing, new game+, making new and old outfits compatible for both genders, among other things that directly affect the new content we get from this team. Basically what I am saying, is you - the playerbase, asked for this.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And yet the clear rates in the lucky bancho survey shows that you are still a minority. (And these numbers also included the people who only did it because they always do relic, who do it for the huge amount of items you get as a rewards and more.)

You can also say that not everyone that disliked it went to the forum to vent. The forum will always be a minority of the playerbase but it had been a good indicator..a lot of the content that was more disliked on the forum also was death quite fast ingame. The only saving grace for Eureka was that you could go there all alone and theoretically solo it. But it was still nerfed quite fast.

So yes the forum will never 100% give the view of everyone but if something is greatly disliked or greatly loved then its probably that way in the game itself.

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I'll be honest. I disliked then quit Eureka after if first came out. It remind me too much of the bad things that FFXI offered like sitting in Jeuno shouting for a party... Didn't complain on the board much either because I figured that is what people said they wanted and that is what they got. I heard they fixed something but I fall in that group that when I hate some, I never complain, just leave and never come back.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And yet the clear rates in the lucky bancho survey shows that you are still a minority. (And these numbers also included the people who only did it because they always do relic, who do it for the huge amount of items you get as a rewards and more.)

You can also say that not everyone that disliked it went to the forum to vent. The forum will always be a minority of the playerbase but it had been a good indicator..a lot of the content that was more disliked on the forum also was death quite fast ingame. The only saving grace for Eureka was that you could go there all alone and theoretically solo it. But it was still nerfed quite fast.

So yes the forum will never 100% give the view of everyone but if someone is greatly disliked or greatly loved then its probably that way in the game itself.

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I am going to assume Lucky Bancho pulls the achievement information from Lodestone, as it is the only way to get proper metrics. Though, I don't remember getting achievement for just getting an item from boxes...

Anyway, my post wasn't about the number of people who did the content versus not. My post was in response to a reason why all-of-a-sudden people started posting they liked Eureka. I wasn't talking about number of Eurekan Relic clears and item earning versus population.

It was more along the line of "we didn't say anything because the environment didn't allow to say anything without getting mobbed on." It was better for us socially to not defend or say anything positive about Eureka in public forums.

I am not denying minority status here. Though, getting the relics in FF14 is a minority event anyway. There's just different preferences on how to get those relics. I am just hoping that this time around, there's something everyone can sink their teeth into: Eurekan styled and ARR/HW styled.