Tenacity

Is it time to rework / remove this stat like they did with Parry?

DH / CRIT being the best for everything all the time is annoying.

:mad:

The game is too simple to give people diverse viable choices.

Nope, get in line bud. Piety rework comes first

I mean, it's up to you if you wanna use it or not.

This game has pretty much zero horizontal progression outside of melding, you wanna go full Ten then don't let the BiS folks stop you. Don't have to wait for SE to make it meta.
*Shrug

I'd rather they adjust stats so Crit + DH isn't king for pretty much every job in the game as opposed to just deleting unused stats...

For example, Tanks should get more damage from Tenacity than from Determination (I mean, it is their unique stat...)

Piety should be... Useful in some way to Healers.

SkS/SpS should have more impact to make it comparable to Crit/DH (For example, not half-assing which CD's are reduced by it... As a GNB, Gnashing Fang and Sonic Break get reduced CD's from SkS, but No Mercy, Bow Shock and Blasting/Danger Zone don't...)

Maybe. Tenacity will never be any good with how the game is designed (unless they make the damage increase highe than determination). However, they may need the stat for balancing base stat from gear, even though you'll never use it for melds.

IMO Direct Hit should have been for DPS only. Both healers and tanks got a stat that works specifically for them; don't see why DPS was exempt from that.

Nobody will like this suggestion because they're obsessed with only the maximum level of deeps possible regardless of role, but whatever; still putting it out there anyway.

Unless there comes a time where having a certain amount of Tenacity specifically is a legitimate requirement to clear a fight, it won't be useful. That's the nature of defensive stats in general. It's required or useless. It's binary.

{Yes, Please.}
And take a Piety with you.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Maybe. Tenacity will never be any good with how the game is designed (unless they make the damage increase highe than determination). However, they may need the stat for balancing base stat from gear, even though you'll never use it for melds.

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Or they could make the mitigation gained from it more impactful. However it would need to be noticeable outside of someone staring at a spreadsheet before people would start actively considering it as a focus for gear and melds. In the end currently there just feels to be too many players with the "But my DPS" mentality. They'd happily trade 10-20% extra damage mitigation if it meant they did 10 more DPS as a tank then probably blame the healer if they get 1 shotted.

I'll keep melding skill speed and tenacity on my tank gear just because I don't care about meta and I know it annoys the hell out of people that are under the delusion that having everything perfectly min/maxed is a requirement just to do content.

I'd say Tenacity is pretty close. It doesn't necessarily have to be the raider's favourite, but I think honestly it's not good for the average tank doing her DF runs and stuff, either. Maybe make it 30 per 0.1%, rather than 33, to start. Or better yet, decouple the damage and healing from the mitigation. Like, if it was, say, 16 for 0.1% DR, 32 for 0.1% damage, it would make it better at mitigation with minimal disruption to damage. Worth noting is that, as it's hard to avoid having a little tenacity in your gear, it would inherently make all tanks a little more sturdy by tampering with the stat directly.

Piety... yeah that one needs help. My friend who plays a lot more healer than I thought it could be cool if it gave you a bonus like DH for heals or something. In FFXIV, pound-for-pound damage is supreme, though at some point defensive benefits can yield opportunity cost via stability or reducing need for resources like oGCD heals so I don't think better utility/defensive stats are impossible.

Poor tenacity.

Its a fantastic stat in a game thats balanced around taking steady damage over long periods of time, with heals that rely on efficiency over 0-100ing you in a crit. Aaaaaaand thats not 14. Pie is mediocre for similar reasons.

It just needs to have its stat interval improved slightly and let hit replace det on tank gear, since ten is det with a mostly worthless secondary effect.

Honestly all materia should be removed completely. Its an extra step that seems customizable but is actually just artificial.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO Direct Hit should have been for DPS only. Both healers and tanks got a stat that works specifically for them; don't see why DPS was exempt from that.

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It was intended to be until they realized that all the non-DpS pre-StB gear that had accuracy on it would need to be rebalanced. They did quick renames of Accuracy to Direct Hit and Parry to Tenacity.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO Direct Hit should have been for DPS only. Both healers and tanks got a stat that works specifically for them; don't see why DPS was exempt from that.

Nobody will like this suggestion because they're obsessed with only the maximum level of deeps possible regardless of role, but whatever; still putting it out there anyway.

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Actually, I support this though I do think Tenacity needs a small buff to compensate. Making Direct Hit a DPS only stat would alleviate the problem Warrior has where only it wants Determination.

Nevertheless, you imply people are obsessed with DPS numbers as though it were a bad thing. People focus on maximizing damage because this game encourages little else. Tenacity, in its current state, does not save a healer GCD. They aren't going to deviate from their healing rotation because you have full Tenacity melded due to how scripted encounter design is. Therefore, Tenacity serves no purpose. Piety falls into this same problem. Only Astro considers it because unlike White Mage and Scholar, it has abysmal MP economy. Simply put, SE needs to incentivize these sub-states if they want people to care about them. Tenacity sounded great on paper when they first announced it. Sadly, it's just far too way for anyone to care.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Piety... yeah that one needs help. My friend who plays a lot more healer than I thought it could be cool if it gave you a bonus like DH for heals or something. In FFXIV, pound-for-pound damage is supreme, though at some point defensive benefits can yield opportunity cost via stability or reducing need for resources like oGCD heals so I don't think better utility/defensive stats are impossible.

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The required Tenacity to save a GCD heal is so absurdly high we cannot even reach it. I'd have to dig around but I recall the amount being more than double what Eden's Gate offered. There is never an opportunity cost yielded, which is why no one looks at Tenacity. It says a lot when tanks avoid it even in Ultimate yet Vit melds were considered mandatory on DPS before they were removed.

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Nevertheless, you imply people are obsessed with DPS numbers as though it were a bad thing.

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It's come at the expense of proper play in too many instances for me to count, personally, hence my statement.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

Nope, get in line bud. Piety rework comes first

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But...Piety got a rework 8 months ago. Tenacity has gone unchanged for almost 3 years now.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Honestly all materia should be removed completely. Its an extra step that seems customizable but is actually just artificial.

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This is probably the case in most MMO's (or RPG's in general) when it comes to having choice for multiple builds. There will always be a meta and most people will just look it up and copy so they won't under perform compared to community. The illusion of having a choice satisfies many people their RPG sense enough I think.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Is it time to rework / remove this stat like they did with Parry?

DH / CRIT being the best for everything all the time is annoying.

:mad:

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Even though I like DH.. the little voice inside my head tells me "It's just doing morer damage, while crit does morerer damage).

I believe determination/DH(/tenacity) builds should always be meta, while crit builds being an option for those who want to rely on their luck to do godlike dps sometimes compared to everyone else (which statistically shouldn't happen very often).

Could perhaps be done by greatly decreasing overall crit chance while also greatly increasing crit damage. Would mean that we'd get much less crits in general, but it will imo make it feel even better when you do get that crit.

I meld full tenacity on my tanks. I don't savage raid and anything that helps keep me alive with the random healers I get in DF is a helpful.

Don't worry, seeing how apart from some rare cases they are not used at all, tenacity and piety are very probably the next materias to be removed from the game at 6.0 launch. It wouldn't even surprise me if all the remaining ones will at the same time be merged into one, like "thebigmateriawhichgivesyouabigdpsIX" and "thebigmateriawhichgivesyouabigdpsX", since there is also some highly recommended "choices" in what is left, like crit above det. And of course people will still yet complain and be like "Why you do that SE ? Why are you removing all choices from the game ?" XD

crit, no mater what, will be always the best because it ( increase critical strike chance , and increasing critical strike damage ) if You ever played Diablo3/PoE where,- crit chance/ crit damage/, as attack speed/ were always crucial to increase DPS, then You would know how stats like this play with each other

two mods at once, thus single mod will be never better

to counter this you would want new materia that has for example, two stats ( inc dmg + as/cs ) at one materia

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Originally Posted by testname

crit, no mater what, will be always the best because it ( increase critical strike chance , and increasing critical strike damage ) if You ever played Diablo3/PoE where,- crit chance/ crit damage/, as attack speed/ were always crucial to increase DPS, then You would know how stats like this play with each other

two mods at once, thus single mod will be never better

to counter this you would want new materia that has for example, two stats ( inc dmg + as/cs ) at one materia

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To be fair, tenacity has a ton of mods.

Affects the amount of physical and magical damage dealt and received, as well as HP restored. The higher the value, the more damage dealt, the more HP restored, and the less damage taken. Only applicable when role is Tank.

Take less damage, do more damage, receive more healing.

Like someone else said, on paper that sounds awesome, but since the values are so low it ends up being not the case.

You actually can meld it if you feel like this. It's just the guestion of what you want more: a little bit higher DPS or a little bit higher survability. BiS is always made with highest DPS in mind, so if you wish to eat less damage, just ignore BiS and go for tenacity set.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

To be fair, tenacity has a ton of mods.

Affects the amount of physical and magical damage dealt and received, as well as HP restored. The higher the value, the more damage dealt, the more HP restored, and the less damage taken. Only applicable when role is Tank.

Take less damage, do more damage, receive more healing.

Like someone else said, on paper that sounds awesome, but since the values are so low it ends up being not the case.

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IIRC its only self healing that gets buffed, not healing recieved from the healer

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Originally Posted by Gokuhan

I meld full tenacity on my tanks. I don't savage raid and anything that helps keep me alive with the random healers I get in DF is a helpful.

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Perfectly valid use of Tenacity.
I'm not usualy running savage on tank, so I tend to meld Tenacity too, it softens the blow of being undergeared.
As a result I was able to very comfortably clear Ruby EX as an i461 GNB.
(It's quite annoying that so many PF specify 470 minimum, when I can probably do that fight better than most others)

I may take my GNB forward more as a main now though, so if I'm up to gear I'll probably want more damage over defence.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Perfectly valid use of Tenacity.
I'm not usualy running savage on tank, so I tend to meld Tenacity too, it softens the blow of being undergeared.
As a result I was able to very comfortably clear Ruby EX as an i461 GNB.
(It's quite annoying that so many PF specify 470 minimum, when I can probably do that fight better than most others)

I may take my GNB forward more as a main now though, so if I'm up to gear I'll probably want more damage over defence.

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Thats likely as Ruby hits tanks like a wet doodle, there is basically no threat that whole fight to tanks

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Thats likely as Ruby hits tanks like a wet doodle, there is basically no threat that whole fight to tanks

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Besides Ruby Claw and Mark II Comets.
My co-tank (i475 GNB) seemed to get hit just as hard as I did.

Clearly the only way to fix this is only give dps benefit from DH/crit/det, why doesn't dps get their own materia when tanks and healers do. SE could goes as far as melee getting det, ranged crit and casters DH.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Besides Ruby Claw and Mark II Comets.
My co-tank (i475 GNB) seemed to get hit just as hard as I did.

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Ruby Claw you should just superbolide, youre not using it anywhere else, and the comets you can pop every piece of mitigation + aurora because its up and youll take like no damage

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

IIRC its only self healing that gets buffed, not healing recieved from the healer

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Even so, there is benefit to increased self healing. Heck, in the case of GNB it also benefits others from Brutal Shell and... Whatever that cooldowns is called that I can't think of that can give them Brutal Shell. I'm so bad with ability names it is amazing I even know how to play this game.

Literal quote from other tank just now:

"your skill speed and tenacity melds hurt me uwu"

I LIKE THE IDEA OF BEING A TANKY SPEED TANK, AND YET THIS IS CONSIDERED BAD.

And that's what I hate.

It's ok. I'm a DET healer, but I guess I turn heads when they see I don't add crit to every slot.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Literal quote from other tank just now:

"your skill speed and tenacity melds hurt me uwu"

I LIKE THE IDEA OF BEING A TANKY SPEED TANK, AND YET THIS IS CONSIDERED BAD.

And that's what I hate.

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Since TP was removed, Skill Speed is 'ideally' a good thing. More power to you.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Since TP was removed, Skill Speed is 'ideally' a good thing. More power to you.

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Thank you. It's on this note that I wish things like Skill Speed could be stacked in such a way to be equal to (or at least close to) Crit / DH. You want to smash guys for big numbers? Good for you. I want to smash my keyboard as fast as possible while doing comparable damage.

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Skill Speed is 'ideally' a good thing.

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No.

Skill speed to a point where your rotation fits in the correct number of abilities in a window is a good thing. Any speed that doesnt do that is not at all good. Thats usually ~2.40-2.42s gcd on a tank, though warriors want 2.36-2.38 for IR windows.



As for tenacity, in 5.0, the damage reduction from full tenacity stacking saved your healer having to cast one GCD heal for every ~22-23 gcd heals they cast between the time your HP is at 100% and the next time it is at 100%. Tenacity's DR is very not good because of how DR works in 14.

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why doesn't dps get their own materia when tanks and healers do.

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Why would you want a stat thats worse than every other stat available, that you never want to use on gear or meld for (rip piety being useful), but have to because itemization says you cant completely avoid it?

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Originally Posted by Barraind

Why would you want a stat thats worse than every other stat available, that you never want to use on gear or meld for (rip piety being useful), but have to because itemization says you cant completely avoid it?

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Why would you want many choices but only one fits every class as best in every situation?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO Direct Hit should have been for DPS only. Both healers and tanks got a stat that works specifically for them; don't see why DPS was exempt from that.

Nobody will like this suggestion because they're obsessed with only the maximum level of deeps possible regardless of role, but whatever; still putting it out there anyway.

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Yes, idk but it hurts me seeing healer meld DH >_>

Piety should just increase the ammount of healing and reduce the use of mana, so it lets u use more attacks too, it could also scale on attack a bit.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Literal quote from other tank just now:

"your skill speed and tenacity melds hurt me uwu"

I LIKE THE IDEA OF BEING A TANKY SPEED TANK, AND YET THIS IS CONSIDERED BAD.

And that's what I hate.

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It's "bad" but it's also fine. The difference between optimal materia and not is less than 1% dps in most cases. Anyone who judges you over meld choices outside of Savage or above is just spouting stuff they saw on a guide but don't understand why or how it works. The fact you're fully melded in the first place is already plenty.

Ten could do with a rework though. The mitigation should be meaningful, 5% reduction for jamming every slot full and overmelding isn't much of a playstyle choice. It has very little impact no matter what you meld.
Piety badly needs a rework. It's a completely dead stat outside of the hardest endgame. Giving us a stat that's only useful when we have to heal like crazy then giving us nothing to heal is a joke.