Serious Point Allocation Discussion

STR > MND / VIT > MND / VIT > DEX

Or oddment build, VIT>DEX>MND?

Discuss,

I know there's been threads but they are filled with complaints and such. Please only reply if you know how stats function ( see patch 1.20 notes ).

Thank you !

Well I would put Mind as my 2nd stat no matter what now. It affects healing magic potency and the Flat Blade Combo, as per the 1.21 patch notes:

Quote:

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Flat Blade
・Combo bonus now affected by player MND rating.
・Enmity incurred by combo bonus increased.

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Otherwise I'd say it's a toss up between STR and VIT for the top spot. One offers more damage, the other (theoretically) offers better survivability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Well I would put Mind as my 2nd stat no matter what now. It affects healing magic potency and the Flat Blade Combo, as per the 1.21 patch notes:



Otherwise I'd say it's a toss up between STR and VIT for the top spot. One offers more damage, the other (theoretically) offers better survivability.

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I definitely agree. MND helps us in two known ways. Str seems more attractive because it seems for some reason SE upped our blocking capacity even without a lot of DEX. But I'd like to see actual calculations for VIT redux before striking the gavel. MND is definitely a second stat though.

Does anyone know where we can find data on how DEX effects block and how VIT effects damage redux? I know it does not increase defense for PLD, at least not in a reasonable way, I actually tested that but the descrip doesn't really say def anyways, says reduction, I'd assume that means its damage divided by a percentage of accumulated VIT checked against perspective defense to a final result.

Problem is, MRD seems meant to stack VIT where it's almost like we were given a curve ball there. Wish SE actually had DEX increase our damage secondarily.

Kaeko and crew have been doing some testing on physical damage reduction.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317908

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Kaeko and crew have been doing some testing on physical damage reduction.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317908

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This^ Kaeko is ALWAYS forever running tests. Btw, ty Kaeko and team! (^.^)b

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Kaeko and crew have been doing some testing on physical damage reduction.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317908

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That's some great info, if not terribly disconcerting. All the defense currently possible would only put us between 0 and 0.1% damage reduction on something like Ifrit. That's pretty awful. And that would essentially mean that HP is king and Warrior will remain in its place until defense calculations are revamped, if they ever are.

I agree, Arcell. The data speaks for itself, there's no way a Paladin can build that much VIT and remain comparable to our colleagues. In that, it seems like PLD is a useless thing for me, despite this I think for the moment I will go STR > MND and pray for rain. If only VIT calculated into damage for us.

What I think is VIT should somehow collude with ACC, ATK and it's usual mods for both the Warrior and PLD, offering more ATK to the warrior and more acc for the Paladin.

Or, we should be given a true utility role, in that we can regen MP effectively through access to the Blessed Mind WHM ability, and boast higher healing magic potency. But that's for another discussion.

MND also boosts your damage on Gladiator/Paladin, in case you guys didn't know. It's your secondary damage mod.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Estellios

MND also boosts your damage on Gladiator/Paladin, in case you guys didn't know. It's your secondary damage mod.

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Well, according to 1.20 notes (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/f...#threads/32606) MND is our primary damage mod. STR shows as bonus 2.

However if STR more atk power you would want to supersede MND it your goal is to at least get some kind of odd use of your PLD.

Anyone know what DEX actually does to our block?

what % do you guys allocate to each stat?

Onidemon,

At the moment I am only certain of MND, in which case I plan to put 20 points in.

I am still undecided on VIT and STR. VIT does help enhancement magic but that's only really going to help me solo.

Personally, since stats aren't particularly amazing and they've been changing them around I went with +9 to all but INT. Everything is beneficial pretty much so I figured I'd just do an even spread.

Once 2.0 comes out or stats become more useful and more testing is done I'll use up my reset. Until then, though I see no reason to change mine.

From Kanicans post:

(3) VIT, in addition to affecting physical damage taken, also decreases magical/elemental attacks.

We chose not to go any deeper into this aspect of VIT since this post focuses on physical damage.


this is sticking in my head. theres got to be more to VIT than meets the eye.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akubikumo

From Kanicans post:

(3) VIT, in addition to affecting physical damage taken, also decreases magical/elemental attacks.

We chose not to go any deeper into this aspect of VIT since this post focuses on physical damage.


this is sticking in my head. theres got to be more to VIT than meets the eye.

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When you read that did you check the parsing charts? It helps you rationalize what it's doing.

One thing is for sure, more VIT equals stronger enhancement magic but as we are probably l

Sorry, iPhone ate post.

Since we are looking to be good in parties we probably don't care for enhance magic benefits due to a whm inevitably being in the group with us.

I'm going to leave my primary points unset until I get more results from STR tests, once I have them I can chose between the two. Lol if nothing else pally can uh be my questing job or the job I use to help folks with low level stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akubikumo

[B](3) VIT, in addition to affecting physical damage taken, also decreases magical/elemental attacks.

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I went with a Vit/Pie build personally, with defensiveness in mind, since even Yoshi-P stated PLD was the foundation of a grp's defenses. Pie did give a small boost to m.eva on the Attributes page, wasn't much but in my book, every little bit helps

Ya, it's not so much the Enhancement Magic boost im interested in (for PLD at least) but the Magic Defense boost (if thats what he was implying by "also decreases magical/elemental attacks"). Which, to me, seems to have benefits over straight up DEF for a tank. It could be another one of those typical stats-that-add-.0001%-increase to whatever, but its still interesting that VIT can mitigate magic damage (if that is true). Im not allocating a single point till I know more lol

I threw all of mine into STR/MND, and seeing the numbers on VIT doesn't exactly make me want to change that.

It's not really fair, it seems like PLD much like in D&D needs almost every stat, where as a WAR can stack STR and VIT and maybe some dex and call it a day.

STR : for dmg
VIT : for more HP and less damage taken across the board
DEX : for blocking, accuracy, and parry
MND : Healing magic potency and more damage
PIE : for more MP and Magic Evasion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sortis

It's not really fair, it seems like PLD much like in D&D needs almost every stat, where as a WAR can stack STR and VIT and maybe some dex and call it a day.

STR : for dmg
VIT : for more HP and less damage taken across the board
DEX : for blocking, accuracy, and parry
MND : Healing magic potency and more damage
PIE : for more MP and Magic Evasion

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DEX my affect block rate and accuracy, but it's not enough to be worth putting points into, IMO. With the new Divine Veil, Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver, you can force a good amount of blocks.

PIE is in the same boat. The amount of MP you get is 1 to 1, so it's not worth it for that. You don't really get enough M.Evasion to matter from the (at most) 23 piety.

The real question is:

1st: STR or VIT?

2nd is definitely Mind. More healing magic potency and it enhances your Flatblade combo. No question there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcell

DEX my affect block rate and accuracy, but it's not enough to be worth putting points into, IMO. With the new Divine Veil, Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver, you can force a good amount of blocks.

PIE is in the same boat. The amount of MP you get is 1 to 1, so it's not worth it for that. You don't really get enough M.Evasion to matter from the (at most) 23 piety.

The real question is:

1st: STR or VIT?

2nd is definitely Mind. More healing magic potency and it enhances your Flatblade combo. No question there.

---

Not to sound like an elitist, cause I definitely am not but if you're pondering anything but STR, VIT and MND you are wasting your time on PLD at the moment.

I've personally tested it all, and MND seems to be the "winningest" stat we have.

I think Arcell here says it best: do we take the VIT or the STR for some attack power.

I guess to get to this theory we need to look at what SE really gave us in a positive way.

1. Cover
Some it's lame, some scratch their head, a lot think its only useful to protect a healer or a really good damage dealer but it can honestly be used to redirect "oh no!" moments away from an MT such as a crazy enmity doling warrior.

This does not mean we cannot be mts because a few paladins I've played with in recent memory conducted themselves just fine in boss fights, but the truth remains warrior naturally outperforms us as an mt.

2: Holy Succor
I don't like to offend our devs, they work hard, but this feels cheaply taken from WoW paladins as a poor substitute for simply giving us cura and access to a better mp regen mechanic; never the less it can be useful some situations with enough MND.

Divine Veil speaks for itself, and lastly we have an invulnerability tactic. On wow and other Mmos they give tanks these saving throws to avoid big wig raid bosses from totally laying down the law on them. This is not wow and it makes me feel like its to make up for our inevitable sub par physical mettle in comparison to a warrior.

We are the cornerstone of defense, we have a lot of mechanics that support the party. Trouble is, we either need more base line def from the PLD job, or we need mp regen and increased enmity production from heals.

Back to point:
VIT at 23 points added, the max, is only 7 def and it calculates very poorly into results. VIT was not our favored stat on artifact gear and it seems everyone's main stat is for other jobs.

MND, we get plenty of, also some interesting healing pot. So I personally feel I should cap out MND, but also think its down to a personal choice whether to sub STR or MND.

I imagine SE will reconcile some day with all the data that is out. Unless.. This is working as intended and we all are being stubborn wanting to be strong arms and not blessed swordsmen as portrayed in our quests.

SO! Which...

MND>VIT

VIT>MND

MND>STR

STR>MND

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcell

DEX my affect block rate and accuracy, but it's not enough to be worth putting points into, IMO. With the new Divine Veil, Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver, you can force a good amount of blocks.

PIE is in the same boat. The amount of MP you get is 1 to 1, so it's not worth it for that. You don't really get enough M.Evasion to matter from the (at most) 23 piety.

The real question is:

1st: STR or VIT?

2nd is definitely Mind. More healing magic potency and it enhances your Flatblade combo. No question there.

---

The point is though, is dex does increase block rate, and GLA/PLD is the only job in the game that is actually going to even think about going after block rate, casters sure as heck don't care about it. So why even make a stat effect block and why let us allocate stats if there isn't some grand reason to do so. If these stats are just plain better than these stats then why is the point of this system?! To give us some kind of false sense of customization when there is none...thats dumb.

Furthermore the point of my post is to show that PLD is spread much more thin than WAR is. WAR is more successful because they can just balls to the walls go for 2 stats and thats all their job relies on, our job however relies on almost 3 times as many stats. I'm not saying we need to put points in them, but they can increase practically everything they do with 2 stats, we however have to be content with just letting most of our stats go in favor of something more potent, ergo we are spread thin on our needs. What would a world look like if we could increase our damage, MP pool, Block Rate and damage mitigation with MND?

As it stands WAR gets to increase with VIT : damage mitigation, HP pool, and damage all in one stat. VIT helps them hold hate through dmg, take dmg through mitigation, and survive with a high HP pool. STR is just icing on the cake. It's literally everything the job needs. If we could put points in MND to increase everything a PLD needs it would be a better job. That is my 2 cents. I could be wrong, but it seems like if MND was for PLD what VIT is for WAR we may not even be having this discussion.

If we aren't going to use point allocation to make unique builds then take it out of the game, it's pointless. Just give every job 2 stats that increase everything they can possibly do, and boost those stats beyond others every even level, that would go a long way towards making jobs balanced. (IMO)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

Not to sound like an elitist, cause I definitely am not but if you're pondering anything but STR, VIT and MND you are wasting your time on PLD at the moment.

I've personally tested it all, and MND seems to be the "winningest" stat we have.

I think Arcell here says it best: do we take the VIT or the STR for some attack power.

I guess to get to this theory we need to look at what SE really gave us in a positive way.

1. Cover
Some it's lame, some scratch their head, a lot think its only useful to protect a healer or a really good damage dealer but it can honestly be used to redirect "oh no!" moments away from an MT such as a crazy enmity doling warrior.

This does not mean we cannot be mts because a few paladins I've played with in recent memory conducted themselves just fine in boss fights, but the truth remains warrior naturally outperforms us as an mt.

2: Holy Succor
I don't like to offend our devs, they work hard, but this feels cheaply taken from WoW paladins as a poor substitute for simply giving us cura and access to a better mp regen mechanic; never the less it can be useful some situations with enough MND.

Divine Veil speaks for itself, and lastly we have an invulnerability tactic. On wow and other Mmos they give tanks these saving throws to avoid big wig raid bosses from totally laying down the law on them. This is not wow and it makes me feel like its to make up for our inevitable sub par physical mettle in comparison to a warrior.

We are the cornerstone of defense, we have a lot of mechanics that support the party. Trouble is, we either need more base line def from the PLD job, or we need mp regen and increased enmity production from heals.

Back to point:
VIT at 23 points added, the max, is only 7 def and it calculates very poorly into results. VIT was not our favored stat on artifact gear and it seems everyone's main stat is for other jobs.

MND, we get plenty of, also some interesting healing pot. So I personally feel I should cap out MND, but also think its down to a personal choice whether to sub STR or MND.

I imagine SE will reconcile some day with all the data that is out. Unless.. This is working as intended and we all are being stubborn wanting to be strong arms and not blessed swordsmen as portrayed in our quests.

SO! Which...

MND>VIT

VIT>MND

MND>STR

STR>MND

---

Yeah it's kinda...bothersome, are they telling us "your default vit is enough, just pour everything into mnd and str" ? I mean most WAR i talk to do that with VIT and STR and just get acc gear in place of DEX, we can't really do that with our VIT =\

Oh don't get me started on DEX. I put in 11 points thinking about block and acc, I was excited, didn't see a single point of acc.

Working as intended or broken?

IMO SE should make MND effect block, in addition to what it does for PLD, or something different. Has anyone petitioned SE about these stats being borked so?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sortis

The point is though, is dex does increase block rate, and GLA/PLD is the only job in the game that is actually going to even think about going after block rate, casters sure as heck don't care about it. So why even make a stat effect block and why let us allocate stats if there isn't some grand reason to do so. If these stats are just plain better than these stats then why is the point of this system?! To give us some kind of false sense of customization when there is none...thats dumb.

Furthermore the point of my post is to show that PLD is spread much more thin than WAR is. WAR is more successful because they can just balls to the walls go for 2 stats and thats all their job relies on, our job however relies on almost 3 times as many stats. I'm not saying we need to put points in them, but they can increase practically everything they do with 2 stats, we however have to be content with just letting most of our stats go in favor of something more potent, ergo we are spread thin on our needs. What would a world look like if we could increase our damage, MP pool, Block Rate and damage mitigation with MND?

As it stands WAR gets to increase with VIT : damage mitigation, HP pool, and damage all in one stat. VIT helps them hold hate through dmg, take dmg through mitigation, and survive with a high HP pool. STR is just icing on the cake. It's literally everything the job needs. If we could put points in MND to increase everything a PLD needs it would be a better job. That is my 2 cents. I could be wrong, but it seems like if MND was for PLD what VIT is for WAR we may not even be having this discussion.

If we aren't going to use point allocation to make unique builds then take it out of the game, it's pointless. Just give every job 2 stats that increase everything they can possibly do, and boost those stats beyond others every even level, that would go a long way towards making jobs balanced. (IMO)

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And my point was that DEX is useless to pour points into because the effect it has on block rate is negligible at best. If you put points into it hoping to see a higher block rate you will be incredibly disappointed, especially against any bosses. If I want higher block rate I'll go with gear, not waste points in my allocation.

With Paladin you can put points strictly into two stats and be just fine. I would go with STR/MND with some HP gear but that's just me. I wouldn't be any worse off for it. WAR can benefit from DEX and PIE as much as PLD would. Parry rate and M.Evasion are great for Warrior, however allocating points into those stats is equally useless for them as it is for Paladin so people don't. In reality Paladin has a single additional stat to consider over Warrior.

Each job essentially DOES have two stats that it focuses on. Useless as it may be, that is how the current system is designed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

Oh don't get me started on DEX. I put in 11 points thinking about block and acc, I was excited, didn't see a single point of acc.

Working as intended or broken?

IMO SE should make MND effect block, in addition to what it does for PLD, or something different. Has anyone petitioned SE about these stats being borked so?

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DEX doesn't actually add to the "Accuracy" stat but it does factor into your hit rate.

See I have heard that argument about DEX, but I know a paladin who actually tanks very well may I add, and he misses the same amount I do without any DEX. But I also use two acc rings, and seafood to make up for my loss.

I just wish I hit harder for solo purposes. Does STR even dent your damage or is it a lot like other stats for us right now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

See I have heard that argument about DEX, but I know a paladin who actually tanks very well may I add, and he misses the same amount I do without any DEX. But I also use two acc rings, and seafood to make up for my loss.

I just wish I hit harder for solo purposes. Does STR even dent your damage or is it a lot like other stats for us right now?

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I was actually playing around with STR and MND last night before I used one of my stat reallocation items. I wanted to see how much of an effect STR had for PLD. I fought the same rank 50 Ixali outside of Natalan and only made one gear swap. I used a Cobalt Winglet with +30 STR then swapped it to a Cobalt Winglet with +30 MND.

The range of auto-attack damage spread out over 10 battles with each weapon was 146-172 with the STR Winglet, and 144-169 with the MND Winglet. This does not include crits and attacks while sentinel was up on the Ixali. The highest crit was 201 with the STR sword (no +crit attack equipped) and 198 with the MND sword.

Not the best sample size, but I also performed 10 non-critical Fast Blades with each sword and the averages for each were 438.67 with the STR sword and 442.89 with the MND sword. Again not a huge sample size, so take it with a grain of salt.

For solo/damage STR and MND seem to be fairly inter-changable. It seems as though the single biggest factor in damage is the physical attack stat. This might be obvious, but adding +ATK materia or gear will raise your damage potential more than adding an equal amount of +STR or +MND materia or gear.

MND does make a more noticeable difference for Cures. While it may not be a huge difference, +30 MND over +30 STR will create noticeable increases in HP cured by both Cure and Holy Succor. I have yet to test it, but just from eyeball observations last night I would not be surprised if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

I was actually playing around with STR and MND last night before I used one of my stat reallocation items. I wanted to see how much of an effect STR had for PLD. I fought the same rank 50 Ixali outside of Natalan and only made one gear swap. I used a Cobalt Winglet with +30 STR then swapped it to a Cobalt Winglet with +30 MND.

The range of auto-attack damage spread out over 10 battles with each weapon was 146-172 with the STR Winglet, and 144-169 with the MND Winglet. This does not include crits and attacks while sentinel was up on the Ixali. The highest crit was 201 with the STR sword (no +crit attack equipped) and 198 with the MND sword.

Not the best sample size, but I also performed 10 non-critical Fast Blades with each sword and the averages for each were 438.67 with the STR sword and 442.89 with the MND sword. Again not a huge sample size, so take it with a grain of salt.

For solo/damage STR and MND seem to be fairly inter-changable. It seems as though the single biggest factor in damage is the physical attack stat. This might be obvious, but adding +ATK materia or gear will raise your damage potential more than adding an equal amount of +STR or +MND materia or gear.

MND does make a more noticeable difference for Cures. While it may not be a huge difference, +30 MND over +30 STR will create noticeable increases in HP cured by both Cure and Holy Succor. I have yet to test it, but just from eyeball observations last night I would not be surprised if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor.

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So,

What you're saying is SE definitely needs to to give us an offensive stance increasing acc and dmg, similar to whm cleric stance.. At the cost of enmity production and some def to assure it not be used for easy mode dungeon runs.

( the same to mrds for fairness )

Or...

Fix how stats calculate and help all melee classes.

WoW addressed this issue by creating a mechanic called vengeance that boosts a tanks dmg in long with how much damage he or she takes. This isnt wow, but something sure would be nice by way of some kind of love for pally on the solo and group front.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

So,

What you're saying is SE definitely needs to to give us an offensive stance increasing acc and dmg, similar to whm cleric stance.. At the cost of enmity production and some def to assure it not be used for easy mode dungeon runs.

( the same to mrds for fairness )

Or...

Fix how stats calculate and help all melee classes.

WoW addressed this issue by creating a mechanic called vengeance that boosts a tanks dmg in long with how much damage he or she takes. This isnt wow, but something sure would be nice by way of some kind of love for pally on the solo and group front.

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Well, I think stats remain fairly broken, although not as broken as they were 6 months to a year ago. It takes a ton of any one stat to make a real observable difference. I don't think that's exactly news either.

Since I've been playing WAR quite a bit lately, it's been fun making some comparisons. Take PLD with a Cobalt Winglet with +30 MND and WAR with a Demilune Bhuj with +30 VIT. My PLD's total STR and MND are within a few points of my WAR's total STR and VIT, so they should be fairly equal with one exception, the weapons. Just looking at auto-attack on a level 50 Ixali, my WAR hits for an average of 280 per swing with crits in the 330s. My PLD hits for an average of 160 with crits in the 190s. The delay on the sword is 2.6s and the delay on the axe is 4.0s. Now taking these numbers, and with the understanding that they are close approximations but not 100% exact, my WAR's DPS is 70 while my PLD's is 61.5.

Obviously, there are a ton of variables such as crit rate, accuracy, berserk, etc that figure into the final calculation of each jobs' DPS potential. I don't think SE ever intended PLD to be able to compete with a WAR in DPS. The fact that PLD isn't exactly a defensive stalwart just makes the difference stand out even more, but that topic has been discussed in a dozen other topics so no need to discuss it here.

WAR has Rampage and Berserk, so I would agree that a similar stance or ability that allowed a PLD to trade attack for defense or vice versa would be awesome.

PLD's primary stat for auto-attack damage should be changed to VIT instead of STR.

When you look at all other melees, their primary and secondary stats are also their highest stats. PLD's highest stat is VIT followed by MND. Their AF gives VIT and MND. Heavy Darklight gear is all VIT. Nothing a PLD is intended to use has STR on it.

Whatever you do, don't pump DEX. Blocking doesn't do a whole lot for damage mitigation, you can increase block rate to 100% for 33% of the time with Divine Veil, and adding DEX has no noticeable effect on Accuracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kro

PLD's primary stat for auto-attack damage should be changed to VIT instead of STR.

When you look at all other melees, their primary and secondary stats are also their highest stats. PLD's highest stat is VIT followed by MND. Their AF gives VIT and MND. Heavy Darklight gear is all VIT. Nothing a PLD is intended to use has STR on it.

Whatever you do, don't pump DEX. Blocking doesn't do a whole lot for damage mitigation, you can increase block rate to 100% for 33% of the time with Divine Veil, and adding DEX has no noticeable effect on Accuracy.

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Well,

Paladin's primary is MND, so I guess they could flip flop it and make VIT primary and MND secondary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

MND does make a more noticeable difference for Cures. While it may not be a huge difference, +30 MND over +30 STR will create noticeable increases in HP cured by both Cure and Holy Succor. I have yet to test it, but just from eyeball observations last night I would not be surprised if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor.

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MND adds "Healing Stat Potency"...so it's obvious that it effects Holly Succor and Cure, since it does the same on WHM. Though direct Healing Magic Pot effects it more then MND.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sortis

The point is though, is dex does increase block rate, and GLA/PLD is the only job in the game that is actually going to even think about going after block rate, casters sure as heck don't care about it. So why even make a stat effect block and why let us allocate stats if there isn't some grand reason to do so. If these stats are just plain better than these stats then why is the point of this system?! To give us some kind of false sense of customization when there is none...thats dumb.

Furthermore the point of my post is to show that PLD is spread much more thin than WAR is. WAR is more successful because they can just balls to the walls go for 2 stats and thats all their job relies on, our job however relies on almost 3 times as many stats. I'm not saying we need to put points in them, but they can increase practically everything they do with 2 stats, we however have to be content with just letting most of our stats go in favor of something more potent, ergo we are spread thin on our needs. What would a world look like if we could increase our damage, MP pool, Block Rate and damage mitigation with MND?

As it stands WAR gets to increase with VIT : damage mitigation, HP pool, and damage all in one stat. VIT helps them hold hate through dmg, take dmg through mitigation, and survive with a high HP pool. STR is just icing on the cake. It's literally everything the job needs. If we could put points in MND to increase everything a PLD needs it would be a better job. That is my 2 cents. I could be wrong, but it seems like if MND was for PLD what VIT is for WAR we may not even be having this discussion.

If we aren't going to use point allocation to make unique builds then take it out of the game, it's pointless. Just give every job 2 stats that increase everything they can possibly do, and boost those stats beyond others every even level, that would go a long way towards making jobs balanced. (IMO)

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Hi Sortis,

Definitely some good points and something I noticed as well when they were first announcing the key stats per Class / Job.

There is a *fundamental* design (flaw) advantage with making Strength (STR) and Vitality (VIT) the 2 primary stats on Warrior whereas for Paladin it's Mind (MND) and Strength (STR), unless SE decides to adjust the base Defense / VIT on Paladin when you switch over.

As you said, having VIT be a Warrior's primary stat means it helps increase their Auto Attack Damage (and potentially WS damage (TBD)), *and* it inherently increases HP, helps with Damage Mitigation, and as Kaeko's testing notes, it helps with Magic Defense in some way as well(!).

For Paladin (who is supposedly *the* Tank (its unique "characteristic" is supposed to be a Defensive "rock" / foundation (it's certainly not a Damage Dealer)), they make it so bonuses are in STR and MND, and in addition to that, they then have to focus some points into VIT (for HP, higher Defense, Magic Defense (from Kaeko's testing notes)), and potentially DEX (but as many have pointed out sadly, it doesn't help much with Blocking at all)).

There's definitely an inherent advantage and it's easier for a Warrior to just focus on dumping points (and Materia) into STR and VIT only.

Now if Yoshida-san and team actually made a fundamental adjustment so that when you switch over to Paladin Job, you gain a noticeable Defense and/or VIT Boost (inherent with the Job itself), then this problem would be solved.

Why they don't give Paladins an inherent higher Defense / VIT Rating is a bit baffling IMO (or change the formulas to calculate Damage or Blocking for Shields).

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

MND adds "Healing Stat Potency"...so it's obvious that it effects Holly Succor and Cure, since it does the same on WHM. Though direct Healing Magic Pot effects it more then MND.

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Correct, but my point was not to state the obvious. I am still in the process of testing it, but I believe from what I have done so far that MND may be an additional modifier for Holy Succor outside of just what MND contributes to Healing Potency, ala how MND is a modifier for Flat Blade for example.

I am currently gathering a larger sample size before I will make any conclusions, but the trend in my presently small sample size is showing that adding a large amount of MND is creating higher numbers than adding just straight Healing Potency.

What I have been doing is equipping all the Healing Potency items I have and then casting Holy Succor with enough dmg taken that I do not hit my max HP when cast. Next, I'm taking off all Healing Potency items and equipping enough MND so that my Healing Potency is equal to that of when I'm wearing my Healing Pot gear. I am also repeating the process but casting Cure instead of Holy Succor with each gear set. If Holy Succor was based solely on Healing Potency the numbers should be equal whether I'm in the Healing Pot gear set or the MND gear set. So far, the trend is that the MND set is giving the higher average amount cured. With casting Cure, the average is almost identical regardless of gear set throughout the admittedly small sample size thus far. The sample size is still too small to draw any conclusions, but if this trend holds true over a much larger sample size, I think the conclusion would be that MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor whereas other Cure spells may be based solely on Healing Magic Potency.

I'll post back with results once I have a chance to gather more data.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

Correct, but my point was not to state the obvious. I am still in the process of testing it, but I believe from what I have done so far that MND may be an additional modifier for Holy Succor outside of just what MND contributes to Healing Potency, ala how MND is a modifier for Flat Blade for example.

I am currently gathering a larger sample size before I will make any conclusions, but the trend in my presently small sample size is showing that adding a large amount of MND is creating higher numbers than adding just straight Healing Potency.

What I have been doing is equipping all the Healing Potency items I have and then casting Holy Succor with enough dmg taken that I do not hit my max HP when cast. Next, I'm taking off all Healing Potency items and equipping enough MND so that my Healing Potency is equal to that of when I'm wearing my Healing Pot gear. I am also repeating the process but casting Cure instead of Holy Succor with each gear set. If Holy Succor was based solely on Healing Potency the numbers should be equal whether I'm in the Healing Pot gear set or the MND gear set. So far, the trend is that the MND set is giving the higher average amount cured. With casting Cure, the average is almost identical regardless of gear set throughout the admittedly small sample size thus far. The sample size is still too small to draw any conclusions, but if this trend holds true over a much larger sample size, I think the conclusion would be that MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor whereas other Cure spells may be based solely on Healing Magic Potency.

I'll post back with results once I have a chance to gather more data.

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I appreciate your work here, look forward to seeing the results.

Regardless, tanking role aside, MND is our most " powerful statistic " I say that carefully because I know that it doesn't necessarily mean its the silver bullet for our issues, but it's the only one I have tested personally, STR aside as I have not tested it, that effects our performance any kind of way.

Trouble with all stats across the board, DoM's aside, appears to be definitely related to the rate at which they are calculated into effects and I try to raise that argument in the main forums and get trolled on, told to learn to play etc so I dunno.

MND's AA bonus and WS modifier probably caps at 305-310 just like pie, vit, int, for drg, war, mnk. STR probably caps at 350 just like the other melee dd classes, not that you can feasibly reach it while still being a tank.

I'd link the post stating new caps but I closed it and lost the history when closing firefox :(

Wanted to give some updated numbers in reference to my test to find out if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. The two gear sets I have been using are 337 MND with 428 Healing Magic Potency. Let's just call that the MND set. And 288 MND also with 428 Healing Magic Potency will be the HMP set. All other stats remained unchanged between the two gear sets.

50 casts of Holy Succor with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 876-923 with an average of 894.68. With the HMP set the range was 852-903 with an average of 878.69.

50 casts of Cure with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 468-497 with an average of 478.41. With the HMP set the range was 470-497 with an average of 478.72.

I would have liked to get those sample sizes closer to 100 with each set to have a little more statistical significance and less margin for error, but unfortunately I had other things to do this evening. What was very obvious over the course of the 100 casts I did make was that the MND set had a higher ceiling and a higher floor for Holy Succor, but the difference between sets for Cure is statistically insignificant.

I feel confident is saying that I believe MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. Ultimately Healing Magic Potency is the biggest determinant of Healing Magic, but at least in the case of Holy Succor, adding MND seems to enhance it's potency even further.

Like stated above, MND seems to be the most effective stat overall for PLD. And as Treach stated above, the benefits of MND on AA likely caps around 305-310. I have yet to test this as well, but so far the most effective DD build I have made for PLD has been with approximately 300 of each MND and STR. Using the MND build above with 337 MND required me to drop my STR to approximately 245 by removing gear. My normal solo build is 284 STR and 307 MND. In dropping STR and boosting MND to 337, AA and WS dmg dropped noticeably.

So for those seeking the most effective DD build, STR and MND in a nice balance as close to 300 as you can get each will be most effective as Treach infers above. It takes double melds and maybe a triple here and there to get both near 300, but it is doable. It's actually easier to do on GLA because you have that extra 10 STR instead of VIT when on PLD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

Wanted to give some updated numbers in reference to my test to find out if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. The two gear sets I have been using are 337 MND with 428 Healing Magic Potency. Let's just call that the MND set. And 288 MND also with 428 Healing Magic Potency will be the HMP set. All other stats remained unchanged between the two gear sets.

50 casts of Holy Succor with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 876-923 with an average of 894.68. With the HMP set the range was 852-903 with an average of 878.69.

50 casts of Cure with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 468-497 with an average of 478.41. With the HMP set the range was 470-497 with an average of 478.72.

I would have liked to get those sample sizes closer to 100 with each set to have a little more statistical significance and less margin for error, but unfortunately I had other things to do this evening. What was very obvious over the course of the 100 casts I did make was that the MND set had a higher ceiling and a higher floor for Holy Succor, but the difference between sets for Cure is statistically insignificant.

I feel confident is saying that I believe MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. Ultimately Healing Magic Potency is the biggest determinant of Healing Magic, but at least in the case of Holy Succor, adding MND seems to enhance it's potency even further.

Like stated above, MND seems to be the most effective stat overall for PLD. And as Treach stated above, the benefits of MND on AA likely caps around 305-310. I have yet to test this as well, but so far the most effective DD build I have made for PLD has been with approximately 300 of each MND and STR. Using the MND build above with 337 MND required me to drop my STR to approximately 245 by removing gear. My normal solo build is 284 STR and 307 MND. In dropping STR and boosting MND to 337, AA and WS dmg dropped noticeably.

So for those seeking the most effective DD build, STR and MND in a nice balance as close to 300 as you can get each will be most effective as Treach infers above. It takes double melds and maybe a triple here and there to get both near 300, but it is doable. It's actually easier to do on GLA because you have that extra 10 STR instead of VIT when on PLD.

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Thanks again,

So it really sounds like if SE gave us higher block rate calculated by VIT, mp regen probably by a trait or simply opening up blessed mind to us, higher enmity from heals cast, and a lower cd on rampart we would be just fine in groups.

War would remain the optimal aoe tank, we would remain the optimal single target tank without making us op or taking our traditional role out of context.

I am going to see about starting a thread and organizing what we'd like to see the devs do to improve the job/class overall without damaging the overall party experience.

vit/mind 50/50 you can add dex, it might help block low lvl mobs but it wont help you in endgame.