Overmelding needs a QoL change

I can't fathom how anyone would enjoy exploding a pile of materia overmelding, announcing each failure to the general vicinity in a wall of spam.

We learned how to do it from Mutamix, it would be great if we could just give him the required amount based on the chance and have him do it, RNG-free. Keep the old mechanic for the masochists, but let us choose an easier way of overmelding, please.

For example, if the slot and materia you want to meld tells you that you have a 17% chance, give mutamix the gear and 6 of the same materia (1.0 / 0.17 = 5.88, rounded up) for a 100% chance of the overmeld taking. It would functionally be the same, but a huge time-saver and headache-reducer. Any opinions on overmelding?

That's not how a 17% chance works. 6 tries does not equal 100% success.
Could be 3 tries could be 50.
Keep overmelding as it is but make it still faster.

As a general rule, I'm in favor of "pseudo" RNG systems where the chance of success increases after each failure. However, I feel most strongly about it for events that have 1% chance or less... 10%+, not as much, though getting unlucky still does suck...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

As a general rule, I'm in favor of "pseudo" RNG systems where the chance of success increases after each failure.

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Yeah. Some amount of RNG is fine, but cut us some slack. Failing 20 10% chance things (melds, drop rates, whatever) in a row is certainly within the realm of possibility, but it is also incredibly not fun. This is a game. You guys control the numbers. I'm not asking for guaranteed success after x attempts, but it wouldn't hurt to make the RNG a little less random.

How about instead we bring back 1.0 style overmelding.
When it fails, the gear also blows up and you lose it.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

How about instead we bring back 1.0 style overmelding.
When it fails, the gear also blows up and you lose it.

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Rip overmelding

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

Rip overmelding

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I had two pieces of quintuple melded gear ready for endgame.
But man did I have to re-farm so much after they blew up.

don't overmeld if you don't like it, you don't need it anyway unless you wan't to be op.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

don't overmeld if you don't like it, you don't need it anyway unless you wan't to be op.

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Actually, if you plan to do any endgame crafting of any kind... you need overmelds on crafted gear. It's more or less mandatory. You can aim for cheaper overmelds sure, but you still need to buff your stats. The craft, control, and CP simply aren't high enough otherwise as a rule.

I fully support the idea of a melding equivalent of the echo or a similar mercy. Fail a certain number of times in a row, trigger an automatic buff that slowly increases your odds to 100% the more failures you get. Say maybe 20 failures in a row to trigger the buff, which maybe gives you a starting bonus of 15 or 20%, and it goes up by 1% for every failure afterwards? Or something along those lines anyway.

They won't ever change this simply because materia is among the few things they can throw at us that retain value. Look at Eureka and PotD. People complained because the initial rewards were mostly fireworks, which are worthless joke items. Unfortunately, this game lacks many options when it comes to rewards. If they made overmelding easy enough to mostly mitigate the RNG, they'd become just as worthless.

That being said, I do think increasing the percentage by small increments after failure wouldn't hurt. Maybe something like 1-2%? Or maybe base it around how many times it's blown up. 10+ boosts the chance a slight bit. Regardless, it will never be much if only so they can keep materia semi-valuable.

I can agree with OP to an extent actually. I don't like the proposed solution, but there's nothing fun about buying a hundred materia and sitting there with your face propped up on one hand as you mindlessly click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... to try again until it sticks.

Yes, when the melds are done you have something you can feel proud of... but in the moment you get that last meld, there's no sense of achievement, just a sense of "ugh, finally." And if a piece of your game is so punishing that people are just dying for the moment they can stop playing that part, it's a problem.

Ornate gear exists as an option for those who can't tolerate the RNG, but it's far too rare to be brought up as a serious alternative, and the reward for obtaining it is that you get to skip a game mechanic. Again, if a piece of your game is so punishing that it's considered a reward that you don't have to play it, it's a problem.

I don't have a great solution, and it's not like I want max meld stats to be easier to obtain, but overmeld as a gameplay loop isn't fun.

Maybe some kind of system where you can craft "patches" to sew or fasten onto your gear, with difficult crafts that would have to rely on some (but not excessive) RNG to allow for a higher chance of success. Use the collectable quality system; a max quality patch would be extremely hard to make but have a ~75% chance of sticking, while a half quality patch you could macro-craft might be 40-50% chance. And, hell, make each patch consume 5+ materia in the craft ingredients.

Again, probably not a great solution; I suspect SE could come up with better if they decided this needed attention. But at least it would involve some actual gameplay that you aren't just looking forward to the end of.

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Originally Posted by Harmonea

I can agree with OP to an extent actually. I don't like the proposed solution, but there's nothing fun about buying a hundred materia and sitting there with your face propped up on one hand as you mindlessly click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... to try again until it sticks.

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***THIS***

Could we at the very least have a process/ui window/something that let us meld and unmeld materia without closing in our face in between each action?


Throwing this in there:

– Allow DoH to regular meld items they have the level to repair.

– Allow the use of a consumable item to slightly bump up the chances for a successful overmeld. (eg. Using 15x Carbonized matter for a 1% increase in chance.. make it scale with ilv, number of meld already there, etc)

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Originally Posted by Harmonea

Ornate gear exists, but it's far too rare to be brought up as a serious alternative, and the reward for obtaining it is that you get to skip a game mechanic.

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^^^^^^^^^^
THIS


How about "Ornate" becomes the default/regular?

overmelding is a gil sink as well as a way to remove excess materia from the system. I don't see it changing anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

overmelding is a gil sink as well as a way to remove excess materia from the system. I don't see it changing anytime soon.

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It's not at all a gil sink since no gil is removed from the economy (i.e. given to an NPC) in the process. At most, money changes hands between players and MB fees are involved, but even that isn't necessary with scrips, clusters, and a few slots on a retainer to hold the stash.

As for removing excess materia, let's not ignore the fact that they likely put so many sources for materia in the game specifically to drive overmeld costs down, and that many proposed solutions involve still consuming multiple materia to compensate for the overflow.

I don't see it changing anytime soon either, because it's not a system that broken enough to put people off playing the game as a whole, but you can't deny it's generally perceived as unfun. There's no harm pointing that out and bringing it up to a dev team already looking at crafting in general (with regard to Ishgard).

RNG does not necessarily have to equal something being unfun. that's what this conversation basically boils down to.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

RNG does not necessarily have to equal something being unfun.

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Correct. Glad we're on the same page.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

that's what this conversation basically boils down to.

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Incorrect. I can't speak for OP, but if you go back through my post again, my gripe is not with the RNG itself at all. Overmelding as a process is simply not engaging because you aren't actually playing an active role in the process. You just click a button until the dice says you may pass go.

It's like old board games where you can't land on the last space and win the game unless you roll exactly the right number. You roll the dice, the game says no, and you're disappointed because the whole interaction is over that quickly and was entirely negative.

I highly recommend the video "The Two Types of Random" on the YouTube channel Game Maker's Toolkit if you're interested in that exact line at which RNG can change from engaging to frustrating. I can come back and add a link in about an hour, but it's an easy search.

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Originally Posted by Harmonea

I can agree with OP to an extent actually. I don't like the proposed solution, but there's nothing fun about buying a hundred materia and sitting there with your face propped up on one hand as you mindlessly click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... to try again until it sticks.

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It would be nice if you could do something like put in how many overmelds you're willing to make and the game automate it from there. Say I want to make 30 attempts. So long as I have 30 of the same materia, the game will keep trying without my input. Sort of like Quick Synthesis. That would at least make the process itself far less obnoxious.

Unfortunately, like I said earlier. There is zero chance they increase the odds themselves beyond a very small amount. What else are they going to use for rewards?

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Originally Posted by Harmonea

Correct. Glad we're on the same page.



Incorrect. I can't speak for OP, but if you go back through my post again, my gripe is not with the RNG itself at all. Overmelding as a process is simply not engaging because you aren't actually playing an active role in the process. You just click a button until the dice says you may pass go.

It's like old board games where you can't land on the last space and win the game unless you roll exactly the right number. You roll the dice, the game says no, and you're disappointed because the whole interaction is over that quickly and was entirely negative.

I highly recommend the video "The Two Types of Random" on the YouTube channel Game Maker's Toolkit if you're interested in that exact line at which RNG can change from engaging to frustrating. I can come back and add a link in about an hour, but it's an easy search.

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why does overmelding need to be made complicated just because you don't like how simple it is? you either succeed or fail. you equating a feeling of negativity because you don't have any input is on you. i don't have any issues with overmelding. i just do it till it works. *shrug*

Personally I like blowing materia up.

And its the only hobby I spend gil on.

I do miss the animation of utter disappointment though.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

How about instead we bring back 1.0 style overmelding.
When it fails, the gear also blows up and you lose it.

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Bahaha, let's bring back the main stats on materia and remove the limit on meldable stats from gear while we're at it!

As someone that just today melted 30 materias on a 17% slot... I disagree with OP. Because those must be wasted somehow or they will become worthless (every patch already makes them easier and easier to get).

Plus, combat materia for overmeld are cheap and crafting/gathering stuff pentamelded is only required for lazy crafters (i am one) that want to craft all in macros.
Even more with the crafting rework, you can do expert receipe in blue gear, some food, but more important, some though on the rotation and some focus on what is going on (you know, like in combat). And that's what they expect us to do in 5.2 anyway, apparently.

The only QoL acceptable would be an automeld, like the auto-crafting, that will auto-meld until success or end of stack.

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Originally Posted by Shadygrove

Personally I like blowing materia up.

And its the only hobby I spend gil on.

I do miss the animation of utter disappointment though.

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The animation of disappointment occurs at the end of a materia stack, if all have been destroyed. Makes the emotion even stronger.

Turn melding into a recipe. Give the resulting meld an extra couple % if done successfully, or reduce it for poor quality. Then allow quick melding option for multiple attempts with the base chance for those just trying to get it done that don't mind buying 100 materia. These are reasonable changes that I would support

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Originally Posted by Kamalen

As someone that just today melted 30 materias on a 17% slot... I disagree with OP. Because those must be wasted somehow or they will become worthless (every patch already makes them easier and easier to get).

Plus, combat materia for overmeld are cheap and crafting/gathering stuff pentamelded is only required for lazy crafters (i am one) that want to craft all in macros.
Even more with the crafting rework, you can do expert receipe in blue gear, some food, but more important, some though on the rotation and some focus on what is going on (you know, like in combat). And that's what they expect us to do in 5.2 anyway, apparently.

The only QoL acceptable would be an automeld, like the auto-crafting, that will auto-meld until success or end of stack.



The animation of disappointment occurs at the end of a materia stack, if all have been destroyed. Makes the emotion even stronger.

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Bingo. I also macro craft so I'm melded up the rear. A good plan is to dump all yer yellow scrips into materia as you do yer weeklies. I've got HUNDREDS of each Hand materia and I'm a lazy kitty. I'm actually finding it hard to find I's II's and III's these days to fill in those little gaps so the materia sink is working? New spiritbonding mechanic should help with that I hope.

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Originally Posted by Harmonea

Correct. Glad we're on the same page.



Incorrect. I can't speak for OP, but if you go back through my post again, my gripe is not with the RNG itself at all. Overmelding as a process is simply not engaging because you aren't actually playing an active role in the process. You just click a button until the dice says you may pass go.

It's like old board games where you can't land on the last space and win the game unless you roll exactly the right number. You roll the dice, the game says no, and you're disappointed because the whole interaction is over that quickly and was entirely negative.

I highly recommend the video "The Two Types of Random" on the YouTube channel Game Maker's Toolkit if you're interested in that exact line at which RNG can change from engaging to frustrating. I can come back and add a link in about an hour, but it's an easy search.

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I'd like to see a % bonus to success based on DoH level.. example being a level 80 DoH doing melds gets a 8% bonus to success. I also like the idea of making it more then just a click and see.. Making it a recipe was mentioned in this thread. Well why not? Make it similar to making HQ/Collects and the higher the value you finish on the higher your chances of success. I could be way off, but that sounds more fun overall and it also adds better rng to the process, imo.

8% increase is way too OP.

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Originally Posted by Kamalen

As someone that just today melted 30 materias on a 17% slot... I disagree with OP. Because those must be wasted somehow or they will become worthless (every patch already makes them easier and easier to get).

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So then why is materia being made easier and easier to obtain when it means there's more and more that needs to be destroyed? If there wasn't an excess flooding the system, there would be no need to find ways destroy it. It's set up an endless cycle that will never get better.

Here's a possible solution: remove all sources of materia except Conversion. Use the new spiritbond reset system so gear isn't destroyed.

Bind materia to the player so it can't be traded. If you want materia on your gear, better get to spiritbonding since you can't get it from someone else.

Allow players to continue to transmute materia at Mutamix but at a 2:1 rate since supplies will be limited to what they personally have.

If gear is allowed to have 5 materia, give it 5 sockets. Take away advanced melding since there's no longer a need to have a way to destroy a surplus flooding server economies.

Set sell to vendor value of materia at 1 gil. Bots can't abuse the system to effectively gil farm.

The thing about materia is its one of the few Gil sinks the game has. since Gil is generated virtually for free, there needs to be a way to get rid of it or else everything gets inflated. Materia is a way to sink the Gil. However I do think there is a solution.

Have an item that you can use to give you a buff until the next successful meld. Make this item also a gil sink. Player would gladly spend extra gil for better odds.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So then why is materia being made easier and easier to obtain when it means there's more and more that needs to be destroyed? If there wasn't an excess flooding the system, there would be no need to find ways destroy it. It's set up an endless cycle that will never get better.

Here's a possible solution: remove all sources of materia except Conversion. Use the new spiritbond reset system so gear isn't destroyed.

Bind materia to the player so it can't be traded. If you want materia on your gear, better get to spiritbonding since you can't get it from someone else.

Allow players to continue to transmute materia at Mutamix but at a 2:1 rate since supplies will be limited to what they personally have.

If gear is allowed to have 5 materia, give it 5 sockets. Take away advanced melding since there's no longer a need to have a way to destroy a surplus flooding server economies.

Set sell to vendor value of materia at 1 gil. Bots can't abuse the system to effectively gil farm.

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since it is a tradeable commodity there needs to be an abundance of it for a market to thrive. there also needs to be multiple sources of acquisition so that not everyone is shoehorned into one activity.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

8% increase is way too OP.

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I don't feel it's too op. If it were to go based off the DoH doing the meld, a level 20 would get a 2% bonus.. even at 8% on a meld that has a 10% chance of success.. 18% means you could still fail 30 times.

people always make suggestions to make things OP even though they don't "feel" they are. this is a fallacy. The success rate is based on the difficulty of the pentameld and intentionally designed this way. i feel the level is just right the way it is.

My only issue with overmelding is SE's streaky algorithm for RNG. They use one of the best RNG algorithms out there... and it actually is extremely accurate with a large sample size. However in the short team, it tends to hit the extremes. For example, yesterday I melded 3 rank 8 materia at 17% chance each right in a row. Then failed at a 22% chance like 20 times. It can get frustrating and it's why I tend to avoid using too many rank 8s when it comes to crafting gear. I'm not rich enough to blow 10 million gil on materia just for one set of gear.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

That's not how a 17% chance works. 6 tries does not equal 100% success.
Could be 3 tries could be 50.
Keep overmelding as it is but make it still faster.

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That's not how probability works. See: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/165994

The expected number of attempts to attach a materia is indeed 1/p. What you're reacting to is the fact that sometimes you meld in 1 attempt, sometimes it takes multiples of 1/p. These are extremes of RNG, but it's a distribution, the probability of melding in 1 attempt is p, the probability of failing 6 17% chances is only 32.6%, and the probability of failing 12 is 10.6%.

The issue people have with nerfing melding is that it would mess with the economy, e.g. it takes X materia for people to meld their gear, and that demand keeps the prices reasonable so there's a value to them. Mathematically, giving a 100% chance at the ceiling of 1/p is using the same amount of materia. You shouldn't consider 1 single person, you should consider everyone in the game, and on that scale the actual usage per person on each of those meld slots very closely matches 1/p.

This change would just make melding materia much faster, which is exactly why it should be done.