Damage Number Bloat and Boss Enrage

Damage Number Bloat

When they announced for ShB that they were revising the damage calculations, mentioning that big number are starting to be a problem, I seriously thought that they were going to introduce Defense as a new stat, to reduce the damage received by a %.

So now, I suggest the addition of Enemy Defense Stat.
This would make the Damage to be a set number desired for us to seek for every new boss.

Let's say BLM Fire IV do 1,000 damage with the boss current Defense as the current minimum ilvl. All other new bosses will get a higher Defense stat to keep BLM Fire IV doing 1,000 with the ilvl increase. Just a example. It sure need to have a damage progression from level 1 to a certain point, then stay with a desired one.

Older monsters and bosses will have a less defense, and thus we will do proportionally more damage the less defense they have. Logically the same as it is now for Defense 0.

With Defense being added, some Job could bring with it more identity for reducing the boss defense. Healers for example, this could be something to have fun with when there's nothing to do than spam 1 button.

Which damage number should SE aim for endgame content in your opinion?

Some players have brought a point of bad feeling about dealing the same damage? I still don't now for sure a solution, but I have thought overnight If they can balance this by only affecting Bosses and not monsters. So, with this, we will get the feeling that the bosses are getting stronger, and monsters weaker, instead that we are being just the same. And even so, Bosses can have different Defenses and Max HP to avoid this feeling of "the same formula".

So, by suggesting that only bosses get high Defense atribute we can still feel progression dealing with monsters that have none to low Defense until the boss, and get to it having a feeling that the boss have a huge Defense value, or just medium Defense value.

For example Yiazmat fight type. It may have huge Max HP and huge Defense. By breaking the core he would lose the defense and part of his HP, and we would be dealing increased damage. This is just a example if there were a defense atribute, I'm not suggesting to change the Yiazmat fight.

Enrage suggestion scrapped.
I just think that they could bring some unique identity enrages to lessen this feeling of homogenization.

Quote:

---

So instead of wipe, the party has 50% of the hp to fight before the next Enrage Heal. Boss HP Regen will extend the Fighting time for groups that are lacking DPS, while rewarding greatly for every little investment into Damage.

---

Which means - throw corpses at the boss until he dies from age?
I think wipe extends the fight good enough already.

You're trying to fix a problem that does not exist. Stop, please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

Boss Enrage Heal will define a point of the fight that is ideal to have a set Damage Per Second to beat the boss before it heals itself for say 50% and extend the fight time. So instead of wipe the party has more 50% of the hp to fight before the next Enrage Heal. This can bring some use for Classes that have more "progression based kit", like RDM, to have some use outside progression.

---

Just...why? All you're accomplishing is just dragging out the fight and transforming it into a war of attrition. You're not rewarding skill. You're rewarding a team that can just keep chucking bodies at the boss till they win. A hard enrage has a very clear, outlined win condition, a team skill based check, a binary measure of win or failure. The game already greatly rewards every little investment in damage: it's called being able to suffer deaths &/or mechanical failure and not wipe to hard enrage later. Or being able to skip more & more of the end of the fight. Having a boss constantly undoing damage you do through regen or just force-extending the encounter long after the pull should have concluded and turning it into a "keep throwing ourselves at the boss till we win" scenario is just unfun.

Maybe you guys are right.
I guess I'm just tired of every boss now having the same type of enrage. I just think that they could bring some unique identity enrages to lessen this feeling of homogenization. I will scratch that part of the first post.

And I would appreciate if you approach the Defense Stat too. I feel it was the primary subject for me to feel posting it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

Maybe you guys are right.
I guess I'm just tired of every boss now having the same type of enrage. I just think that they could bring some unique identity enrages to lessen this feeling of homogenization. I will scratch that part of the first post.

And I would appreciate if you approach the Defense Stat too. I feel it was the primary subject for me to feel posting it.

---

They did. T2 enrage strat, look it up. It's exactly that which is why we don't have those anymore.

There are at least short term dps checks too thrown into fights to be fair. Granted these usually take the form of 'kill adds before bar fills' but they're there. Sometimes they're more fun than that like O12 where you have to take down Omega M for his barrior to drop before Omega F finishes a big spell, but usually it's just the adds.

As for the defense stat, I don't really see the benefit. Part of the fun of an RPG is seeing your numbers get bigger as you level up and get better gear. Maybe the numbers are getting crazy and they would need to do a stat squish like WoW has in the past to bring the numbers down, but using a defense stat so that your damage numbers in one tier are the same as they were during the prior patch would just feel kinda lame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They did. T2 enrage strat, look it up. It's exactly that which is why we don't have those anymore.

---

Interesting. I feel they could add a vuln stack to it, should fix this T2 cheese.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

There are at least short term dps checks too thrown into fights to be fair. Granted these usually take the form of 'kill adds before bar fills' but they're there. Sometimes they're more fun than that like O12 where you have to take down Omega M for his barrior to drop before Omega F finishes a big spell, but usually it's just the adds.

As for the defense stat, I don't really see the benefit. Part of the fun of an RPG is seeing your numbers get bigger as you level up and get better gear. Maybe the numbers are getting crazy and they would need to do a stat squish like WoW has in the past to bring the numbers down, but using a defense stat so that your damage numbers in one tier are the same as they were during the prior patch would just feel kinda lame.

---

Maybe yes, maybe not.
Something similar of Defense as a damage reduction we already had the experience was Eureka. There we had basically the same damage for the monster of the same level and we would be getting more damage with meaningful things, like magicite and logograms, while levels just basically got our damage tier up. There's something satisfying to come back at a boss where you had struggle to get some damage and deal damage nicely now that you got some ilvl.

I think that by having a entire expansion of enemies with the same defense and only increasing the defense the next expansion (to kinda "reset" the damage numbers) is a good way to keep that feeling of progression.

There's literally nothing wrong with the current enrage

I'm of the mind that they shouldn't fix what isn't broken.

I do kind of prefer enrages like AS8's where the boss just spams ever stronger AoEs until you die as opposed to the more common type where they just instakill you after a few ramping-up AoEs.

I would rather see more soft enrages where the boss just starts to overwhelm the party with increased amounts of AOE damage after a certain point as opposed to either of these. Especially the 50% boss heal whatever thing.

Defense already reduces the damage by percent. Just we cannot see that percent, only the defense value. A defense of 6000 it is around 27% damage mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Defense already reduces the damage by percent. Just we cannot see that percent, only the defense value. A defense of 6000 it is around 27% damage mitigation.

---

Yes. But do monsters have it?
I fail to see that since the damage I do to a Lv 1 monster is the same as a Lv 80 monster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

I can think of nothing more boring then seeing my numbers go down, then go back to where they were as I gear, at the start of a new tier. Like, what worse feeling is there then going backwards and working hard to... Deal the exact same damage you were dealing a few months ago.

It's basically the antithesis of the feeling of progression.

---

Yes, indeed. What do you suggest then to counter this problem?

I was still thinking overnight. But If they balance this by only affecting Bosses and not monsters we will get the feeling that the bosses are getting stronger,, and monsters weaker instead that we are being just the same. And even so, Bosses can have different Defenses and Max HP to avoid this feeling of "the same formula". So, for bosses is the "tier" damage with some variation, and monster/overworld big numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

By re-balancing stat values to have a much more gradual increase instead of the current increase rate.

Which just happens to be what Square is doing. The purpose of the change is 2-fold: First, likely because their system can't handle larger numbers. Second, clarity. Adding an entirely new, entirely background system doesn't do the latter. It's over-solving a simple issue.

---

By reducing the increase to a more gradual one wouldn't it affect the feeling of "reward" of upgrading ilvl, resulting in a bad thing? For example, tanks are already complaining about their damage, reducing the increase even more would be bad.

Other FF games have this type of system, and there is Jobs that have the role of reducing it to increase the damage for everyone. Since it worked there, could work here, as I suggested for Healer Jobs.

It's indeed a simple issue, but carries a complicated feeling into it, because the feeling of progression needs to stay there, while the numbers need to stop increasing indefinitely.

So, by suggesting that only bosses get Defense atribute we can still feel progression dealing with monsters that have none to low Defense until the boss, and get to it having a feeling that the boss have a huge Defense Stat, or just some.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would rather see more soft enrages where the boss just starts to overwhelm the party with increased amounts of AOE damage after a certain point as opposed to either of these. Especially the 50% boss heal whatever thing.

---

This would be a nice change from the current "long cast bar for instant death" that we have everywhere.

If it's implemented similarly to Voidwalker's Quietus phase (lethal hits every 9 seconds) then the determining factor becomes how the party coordinates mitigation. Surviving an additional hit or two means an extra 9-18 seconds. If it is akin to Titan's Tumult (small hit every 0.8 seconds) then healer performance and efficiency becomes more important. With how spiky damage and healing is I'm not sure if it would be possible to implement it as something that builds up at a constant rate over an entire fight to gradually exceed healing output.

While they're at it maybe add phases could be changed so that lethal damage occurs at 70% and sufficient mitigation allows the party to survive if they're a little bit slower. As currently, 99% on the gauge deals irrelevant damage and 100% is instant death with nothing in between. I'm a fan of the continuous damage spectrum we get from the tiger in Byakko and Nabriales in Hades Ex. A hard limit isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does get very repetitive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

When they announced for ShB that they were revising the damage calculations, mentioning that big number are starting to be a problem, I seriously thought that they were going to introduce Defense as a new stat, to reduce the damage received by a %.

---

Why would they? there already is. It's at the very top of the tooltip right under "(Total:#)".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

I can think of nothing more boring then seeing my numbers go down, then go back to where they were as I gear, at the start of a new tier. Like, what worse feeling is there then going backwards and working hard to... Deal the exact same damage you were dealing a few months ago.

It's basically the antithesis of the feeling of progression.

---

I believe they did say that a number crunch was in the works. Not this expansion but perhaps 6.0 or 7.0.