Tanks should have increased enmity by deafault!

So, I'm sick of dying in PUGs because the main tank is down and off thank never had their stance on. Some MT's even ask OT to turn their stance off, FFS. I was in a Copied run where two tanks died, and the boss kept chasing other people for almost an entire minute till healers ress'ed one of the dead tanks. But the third (alive) tank never provoked.

Tanks should have increased aggro generation by default, as it is in most of the other games. So if MT is down the next on the list would be another tank (even without their stance on), not the top DPS. Let tanks have their stances to keep MT/OT rotation, but please increase their default enmity.

I would support this if the default enmity ratio was lower than the ratio youd have by having tank stance on. Good tanks with similar gear probably dont need to do this but it gives a nice sense of security with randoms and helps when your co tank is undergeared.

Something like 80% of tank stance enmity while off and 100% of current tank stance enmity values while on would be nice. Probably makes tank stances pointless in dungeons if you are the only tank though..

cant baby people forever
Tanks just need more situational awareness

OT turns the tank stance off because you don't want both the MT and OT eating cleaves by standing in front of it, but yet you don't want the boss flipflopping between two tanks fighting for aggro so that they can dump cleaves on the rest of the group, nor do you want the OT purposefully doing less DPS to make sure the boss stays on the MT.

If an OT is so far into his MAX DEEPS rotation to not notice the MT died, then that's simply on them and when you get back up, remind the OT that he's gotta pay attention. Simple enough.

Personally, I’d say the issue you got here was the tank left standing just didn’t want to tank. That’s not an issue with tank enmity itself (which had been made a complete joke this expansion) and more you got someone who queued up for a tank for fast queue/glamour/whatever, but didn’t actually want to perform their role. Happens more frequently than it should.

If they had it on by default you would have aggro ping pong, and you would most likely get cleaved. Imagining alliance raids with that would be absolutely horrifying.

In current content really it should just be:
MT has stance on, pulls
About 4 gcd's in OT can put on stance
Pending on the job combination OT may need to turn it off and turn it back on to avoid stealing aggro, but can also shirk as well if needed.

That's it.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

If they had it on by default you would have aggro ping pong, and you would most likely get cleaved. Imagining alliance raids with that would be absolutely horrifying.

In current content really it should just be:
MT has stance on, pulls
About 4 gcd's in OT can put on stance
Pending on the job combination OT may need to turn it off and turn it back on to avoid stealing aggro, but can also shirk as well if needed.

That's it.

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Or simply, leave Stance off if you're the OT and -IF- the MT dies (they really shouldn't, but sometimes things happen), you have several seconds to use Stance, Provoke and then use nearly any skill on him and he's yours. Even if the boss did look at someone else, if someone unloads a Foul crit, or Barrage+Refulg, or what-not, your next attack should get it right back on you.

I've done this I don't know how many times, even while focused on another target. Such as Shiva's Ice Golems (admittedly I already had stance because I was the one picking up the golems), or heck I've picked up Susano a few times when they let the MT die. It really doesn't take long to throw stance on, provoke and hurry up and get the boss facing away from the group while you move it to where you want it.

What I hate even more is when the MT gets up, and gets a heal... first thing he does is he tosses a provoke and proceeds to fight me for aggro.

.......while rez weakened. Derp.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Or simply, leave Stance off if you're the OT and -IF- the MT dies (they really shouldn't, but sometimes things happen), you have several seconds to use Stance, Provoke and then use nearly any skill on him and he's yours. Even if the boss did look at someone else, if someone unloads a Foul crit, or Barrage+Refulg, or what-not, your next attack should get it right back on you.

I've done this I don't know how many times, even while focused on another target. Such as Shiva's Ice Golems (admittedly I already had stance because I was the one picking up the golems), or heck I've picked up Susano a few times when they let the MT die. It really doesn't take long to throw stance on, provoke and hurry up and get the boss facing away from the group while you move it to where you want it.

What I hate even more is when the MT gets up, and gets a heal... first thing he does is he tosses a provoke and proceeds to fight me for aggro.

.......while rez weakened. Derp.

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I wouldn't advise that personally. A recurring theme I've been having in E4S PUGS is MT dies due to being greedy in the first EE (slow) and due to the OT not setting up stance the highest dps not only eats the first auto but also eats the orange stack (resulting in a domino effect). If the OT had stance it could salvage that by eating the auto and living enough to survive orange and be able to set up mitigation.

If tank stance OT has no chance in hell over taking aggro then there is no reason to not have it on. Some people are lazy and don't want to, but with how strong voke is and how enmity is this expac it's best to keep it on as there won't be an issue.

Because lbr people goof up and you can always better save a run by playing safe and having OT ready to go, and again in a fight like E4S you want both tanks to be top aggro as mechs like Blue knockback-minibusters target those in particular.

it's seems a problem of the hand not the tool, don't ask to tanks being even more brain dead when was the player fault for whatever reason it have.

What?
/10

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Originally Posted by Noitems

I wouldn't advise that personally. A recurring theme I've been having in E4S PUGS is MT dies due to being greedy in the first EE (slow) and due to the OT not setting up stance the highest dps not only eats the first auto but also eats the orange stack (resulting in a domino effect). If the OT had stance it could salvage that by eating the auto and living enough to survive orange and be able to set up mitigation.

If tank stance OT has no chance in hell over taking aggro then there is no reason to not have it on. Some people are lazy and don't want to, but with how strong voke is and how enmity is this expac it's best to keep it on as there won't be an issue.

Because lbr people goof up and you can always better save a run by playing safe and having OT ready to go, and again in a fight like E4S you want both tanks to be top aggro as mechs like Blue knockback-minibusters target those in particular.

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I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

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Even then, core fundamental value of tanking as both MT/OT is to hold aggro and not let the dps/heals become a target for the boss due to enmity. That's the reason they had all the tools back in 3.x and 4.x like diversion and lucid, to make tanks have an easier time holding aggro. The only made tanks lives easier by removing those options and reinforcing tank aggro through mastery and stance, that's still no real excuse to let heals/dps eat a hit that isn't needed.

I don't always have tank stance on when off-tanking but I usually Focus Target the main tank and Stance/Provoke very early.

Your problem probably isn't with offtanks not having good aggro built. Most offtanks, especially in 24-mans, just space out and do something like watch Netflix while they play. They don't even pay attention and they don't care to. Half of them have no rotation and are basically auto-attacking (I've sat and watched them many times).

Either that or they power-leveled through PotD/HoH and play like they are a dps.

It's so easy to grab aggro as a tank, I've come to the conclusion that most tanks aren't even trying. Even WHEN they have tank stance on, a lot of times they stand with all the DPS and are constantly fighting me for aggro, cleaving the group in the process.

Nope. While I'm glad tank stances no longer have the +def -dps aspect to them, we should keep the enmity stance. It's a useful tool to toggle as an OT so that I stay behind the MT but above the rest of the party on enmity, so that if the MT goes down I have enmity, without having to either hold back dps or risk pulling threat by accident.

Thats a player problem not a dev problem

Yeah, how about we make every class have raise, can DPS and hold hate forever? Or implement a button labelled 'resolve' before every dungeon so you don't have to queue anymore but still get EXP?

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Originally Posted by Maeka

OT turns the tank stance off because you don't want both the MT and OT eating cleaves by standing in front of it, but yet you don't want the boss flipflopping between two tanks fighting for aggro so that they can dump cleaves on the rest of the group, nor do you want the OT purposefully doing less DPS to make sure the boss stays on the MT.

If an OT is so far into his MAX DEEPS rotation to not notice the MT died, then that's simply on them and when you get back up, remind the OT that he's gotta pay attention. Simple enough.

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MT shouldn't have died to begin with. Blame the MT. They picked to be the MT which means they better not die. Of course if they died to lack of heals then you got a healer problem. Don't try scape goating the OT when someone else had to screw up first to create the situation.

Edit: Another reason why I never hit tank stance and instead voke/shirk to hit 2nd on hate and stay there is because some tanks can indeed rip hate off thier other tank over time. For example, although WAR creates alot of hate, as the fight drags on a PLD/GNB will take them over time due to the rest of their kit outside of IR basically hits like a wet noodle while PLD/GNB have a fairly consistant damage that is higher than WAR. I personally have ripped hate off of my MT numerous times even after waiting more than 12 GCDs for them to establish a lead. Nice try at straw maning.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...83/348/bdd.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Nope. While I'm glad tank stances no longer have the +def -dps aspect to them, we should keep the enmity stance. It's a useful tool to toggle as an OT so that I stay behind the MT but above the rest of the party on enmity, so that if the MT goes down I have enmity, without having to either hold back dps or risk pulling threat by accident.

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That seems a lot of work/effort when Stance+Provoke is a thing.

On topic, maybe just give tanks higher aggro so they can stay second in threat and have MT turn on the Stance?

How about ya'all just communicate with the friggin chatbox to tell them to turn on their stance and tank when the tank is down and a wipe is a wipe... good lord do we need our hands held through EVERYTHING?

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Originally Posted by Valic

How about ya'all just communicate with the friggin chatbox to tell them to turn on their stance and tank when the tank is down and a wipe is a wipe... good lord do we need our hands held through EVERYTHING?

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Typing speed and the ability to notice chat ranges from player to player.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Typing speed and the ability to notice chat ranges from player to player.

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You don't need to be a fast typer to tell the tank after a wipe "if the MT dies, the OT needs to tank".

Failures are the big aspect of gameplay, people learn through mistakes and you should accept it, since they are staying with us like it or not. I see you have no patience for people screwing up. Its not the game fault that online games makes you angry, no amount of in game changes will repair your mood or thin patience, you need a break from the game thats it.

Also btw the idea would not work simply because tanks will have to have increased enmity by more than 2 times due to their low dps and dps job dealing twice as much dps as them. It would end up with tanks ping ponging the raid boss between each other with rank stance or not. I think i could totally live happy with tanks messing up once in a while than having a chaos in every single raid.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

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Normal trials aren't nearly threatening enough for this to matter. I can survive several autos from Garuda or even Titan (normal). It's only in EX and Savage where this would ever be an issue. And the solution is the OT should monitor their aggro and turn off stance if needed or simply Shirk.

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Originally Posted by Valic

You don't need to be a fast typer to tell the tank after a wipe "if the MT dies, the OT needs to tank".

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I was picturing telling the OT mid fight

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

I was picturing telling the OT mid fight

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Just type mid-battle if the boss is running around smacking people and the OT is slow on the uptake.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Just type mid-battle if the boss is running around smacking people and the OT is slow on the uptake.

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^^
"ot voke plz" takes like 2 seconds to type, so yeah I'd have to agree with this.

Now obviously, the OT may or may not notice this, but trying is better than dying without trying.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

^^
"ot voke plz" takes like 2 seconds to type, so yeah I'd have to agree with this.

Now obviously, the OT may or may not notice this, but trying is better than dying without trying.

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Which is why I mentioned that paying attention to chat is also needed.

A good tank on good form will probably see the boss spinning/moving oddly and check the party list, then voke+Stance. At that’s what I try to do but we all have off days/moments.

this has been touched on with ping-ponging and stuff, but i feel that i should mention that this a poor idea specifically for the source material;

alliance raids have three tanks, and none of them share a party.


You cannot shirk your co tanks.

you cannot see their emnity.

if youre an OT, you can't see the MT's enmity.


and while it's not particularly *hard* to tell if the MT is dead or not, and to see it's now rampaging through the clump of 22 other players, so you should probably 'voke.....

not being able to know/tell instantly at a glance if the boss is on a tank or not when the MT dies does add a second or 3 to the reaction time.

im certainly not going to ask anyone to memorize every tank's name they get matched with in their 24 mans. alliance raids just suck all around for tanking in general. theres a lot of just basic requirements for tanking that are just... ripped away from us in those.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

this has been touched on with ping-ponging and stuff, but i feel that i should mention that this a poor idea specifically for the source material;

alliance raids have three tanks, and none of them share a party.


You cannot shirk your co tanks.

you cannot see their emnity.

if youre an OT, you can't see the MT's enmity.


and while it's not particularly *hard* to tell if the MT is dead or not, and to see it's now rampaging through the clump of 22 other players, so you should probably 'voke.....

not being able to know/tell instantly at a glance if the boss is on a tank or not when the MT dies does add a second or 3 to the reaction time.

im certainly not going to ask anyone to memorize every tank's name they get matched with in their 24 mans. alliance raids just suck all around for tanking in general. theres a lot of just basic requirements for tanking that are just... ripped away from us in those.

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I find there's an easy solution to this. When I OT in an alliance raid, I just toggle the tank stance. To give myself a healthy lead over my party, but watching the green/yellow/orange/red threat indicator icon to know if I should turn the stance off. Since I can generally assume the healers and dps in the other two parties aren't going to have drastically higher enmity than the ones in my party, this allows me to always be number 2 or 3 on enmity in allaince raids and have the boss turn to me if the MT dies, while giving me enough leeway to not pull off the MT by accident. Generally this just involves me watching my enmity carefully during my opening as I gain an initial enmity lead over my party, turn it off for a bit to let the MT get a healthy lead, and then after a bit turn it back on for the rest of the fight. No having to provoke, no having a rogue boss running around slapping the party, and it's not even complicated to do.

It's really pretty simple and would be nice if more tanks did it. Or if there's a simpler version for this in alliance raids I'm all ears on that too.

Let´s support increase enmity to default for tank. So I can just go afk and make my char run to wall while tanking boss. (just joking)

if tank MT keep dying for not use CD to mitigation or vulnerability high stack tell MT do better or Kick.
if is healer problem tell healer do better or kick.
If OT dont grab aggro while MT dead or tank swap with mechanic tell OT do better or Kick.
This is a mmorpg game you can type at chat log and tell lazy tank to do tank better or kick them.

you can also check alliance raids party job icon with a Red square whoever boss is attacking.

I kinda want enmity to be a bit more of a challenge, not less.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Personally, I’d say the issue you got here was the tank left standing just didn’t want to tank. That’s not an issue with tank enmity itself (which had been made a complete joke this expansion) and more you got someone who queued up for a tank for fast queue/glamour/whatever, but didn’t actually want to perform their role. Happens more frequently than it should.

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As a healer, I'd say 30-40% of "tanks" queue as that job but don't/can't actually tank.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Personally, I’d say the issue you got here was the tank left standing just didn’t want to tank. That’s not an issue with tank enmity itself (which had been made a complete joke this expansion) and more you got someone who queued up for a tank for fast queue/glamour/whatever, but didn’t actually want to perform their role. Happens more frequently than it should.

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Yeah, you sometimes get people that won't or don't want to tank especially in normal 8 mans or alliance raids where they can hope for a more proactive main tank where they don't really have to do anything except pick up an add on some fights.

Maybe they should make Provoke like in XI, where it puts you at the top of the hate list upon execution with a hefty emnity spike.

they removed dps tank stance just to fix this issue and it obviously didn't do anything to fix it lol no matter what this is going to happen until they bake it right into the kit :[