Recent Developments of TOS Actions Taken

Pls fix healers

So, let's look at what he did.

- Talked a lot of crap about a player in his party
- Enlarged the parse screen
- Used special sound effects and animations to draw even more attention to the "bad player"
- Showed their name in the clear; no attempt to obfuscate their identity.

If we're now in an era where SE takes action on this kind of evidence (And really, SE is behind, because most other operators of online games already do), I'm perfectly OK with SE suspending someone like this.

I also reported that streamer to twitch, since I'm pretty sure his actions violate their ToS too.

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Originally Posted by AmurT

Now let's say the streamer could now indeed be banned for what they do outside of the game (but is one-time criticism really harassment, especially when there is zero direct interaction between players?). What happens now?

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Streamers/youtubers/etc have a lot of power to start witch hunts. Not only did he show that player's name, he made it even bigger and more prominent on his stream.

This is one of those kinds of things where I hate both sides. The guy was clearly toxic, but Square Enix crossed a risky line to punish him.

Not sure that I would defend either stance in this situation, to be honest.

I don't think it's a wise decision on SE's part to be patrolling 3rd party sites and dishing out punishments for stuff unless it's directly taking place inside their game. I recall Blizzard doing the same thing with Overwatch and well....It wasn't exactly a great moment for them. I'm not gonna debate whether or not Arthars should have said what he said, just that this isn't the wisest course of action SE should be taking.

My stance is: While yes, action against the behavior is understandable given previous stances the company has with this kind of situation and yes, Square Enix has the right to action offenses anywhere:

It sets a really weird precedence. Since, technically now, the entirety of the TOS applies to third party websites/third party interactions. Which means that, if reported over certain things, like if you just say -- on a 18+ marked stream -- "aw, [expletive]" that can be an actioned offense just as saying an expletive in game can be. And people say expletives (and no, I'm not talking about slurs, I'm talking about the adult frick) because people do get frustrated, or even just excited. No one's going to be an eternal ray of sunshine, everyone gets frustrated. In the same vein, sometimes when you accomplish something that was incredibly difficult, plenty of people do reach for the 18+ "frick yeah" phrase.

If you run ACT on a stream, that'd also become reportable and actionable whereas before they didn't care about it in this off-site context, only if you mentioned it directly in game.

If you're streaming prog, and one player gets heated at another player and the instance is clipped + sent in as a report: that's actionable, even if both involved parties don't really care about the interaction.

People, players, who take an interaction a streamer has and harass on their own are doing just that: A streamer can't control their base anymore than I can, say, control what dumb things my friends end up doing that get them into a bad situation. (Which is to say, is a different context than a streamer advocating for people to go and harass x, y or z person, but that's not something that happened in the highlighted case, nor is it something that happens in any cases I've seen -- every streamer I've seen usually advocates to not do that. But at the end of the day, they don't literally control the individual people watching, nor do they have physical control over their keyboards.)

Even then, going after a streamer who made fun of someone playing poorly is a less important thing to be concerned about than, say, all the advertised Discords in PF that're RMT selling things.

I'll also add: I don't necessarily think SE will action against people who use ACT on streams, because they haven't previously, but they also didn't action people through offsite interactions of this nature before on a platform they don't own/control, so who's to say what of the TOS and what not of the TOS would be applied going forward. Who can report for what, what report of what content has merit to them, there's no set rules for off-site behavior that's consistent with the GM moderation (and the GM moderation isn't consistent to begin with, which is a problem, and this just plays into that inconsistency).

(And while yes they actioned the offsite death threats, that's a bit more extreme of a case that'd warrant that kind of response. And while they actioned the lewd mods situation some people had on twitter, that always came off more to me as a "We don't want sexual content of our game representing us" moreso than a behavioral fix, and even then, those players largely got warnings from what I remember -- not an immediate escalation)

And while we can all guess, assume, and say "probably this is why" and point to specific things... fact is none of us know, exactly, what tripped it over the line. Most I feel should be put out by SE is just... a defined line for these situations, especially when there's people whose livelihoods depend on it. No one ever wants a "well, maybe you'll be fired" floating over their head 24/7.


That said, I've been put on blast on a stream before. It's not fun, no, but it's not really something that's as big a deal as people say it is. Generally, it's forgotten about within the day and no one will generally care going forward.

Personally? I uh, I got over it.

No party involved treat this fabulous drama with a clear head tbh

SE just being stupid as always, and arthas just like any other streamer with stupid screaming and over-reaction over the pettiest thing.
one think i heard is the BLM is the one who talkshit first, however i havent found a receipt for this. but if its true, then it's a "dont hit if you dont want to be slapped" scenario

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"Offensive expression" means an expression in general that inflicts emotional distress by being offensive to another person. Offensive expression may include:

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TOS was always vague as shit, and its been like that for a long time. but, what if i get offended because a healer not dps-ing/not healing when i Q as a dps? what if i offended because ilvl 400 blm perform worse than ilvl 350 healer??

this fabulous great community always said "just dont be an asshole lol"
but, if you think a little bit. wouldnt people who dont do their job properly and not reading their tooltip also an asshole??
people also said "you dont pay my sub bro"
but, if you think a little bit. wouldnt the deadweight also not paying my sub and the other sub in the party?? (the deadweight also not paying my electricity bill fyi)

So, yoshida i have a proposal for you to end this hostile environemtn called Eorzea.
Lets ban everyone under 99 percentile, ban the stream sniper, ban the erp-er, ban the MB undercutter and ban everyone on r/ShitpostXIV.
Yup, das right, we need to ban all player to end harrasment for once and for all.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

The guy was clearly toxic, but Square Enix crossed a risky line to punish him.

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It's a fair point. It's probably the death/rape/etc threats (from the world first ultimate clears, not this incident) that opened pandora's box. That was out of game too but since SE responded to that, I think that is why they now respond to some reports about behavior connected to but not necessarily entirely within the game.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

People, players, who take an interaction a streamer has and harass on their own are doing just that: A streamer can't control their base anymore than I can, say, control what dumb things my friends end up doing that get them into a bad situation. (Which is to say, is a different context than a streamer advocating for people to go and harass x, y or z person, but that's not something that happened in the highlighted case, nor is it something that happens in any cases I've seen -- every streamer I've seen usually advocates to not do that. But at the end of the day, they don't literally control the individual people watching, nor do they have physical control over their keyboards.)

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While it's true they don't control their viewers, broadcasters do have a certain amount of liability about what they broadcast - and this extends into legal territory, not just SE's/Twitch's ToS. (And, you know - I know this was just hurling insults and very unlikely to escalate - but if it did escalate thanks to some dumb viewer, SE and Twitch could also potentially share some liability if it were shown they had reports they didn't act on.)

There's a reason both big name TV broadcasters will blur faces, and content creators on youtube/twitch will often anonymize names of people that appear on their content. "I don't control the viewers" isn't a free pass.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Even then, going after a streamer who made fun of someone playing poorly is a less important thing to be concerned about than, say, all the advertised Discords in PF that're RMT selling things.

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Yeah, I do wish they'd do more about the blatant RMT too...

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Originally Posted by AmurT

While I do not believe they will go the route to moderate ALL forms of media, I also am not willing to tolerate cherry picking of what they want to consider ban worthy.

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You're free to unsub at any time. It's SE's product so they can do whatever they want with it. If you're unsure what is and isn't allowed you can check with GMs or the ToS.

Not sure what slippery slope people are worried about.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While it's true they don't control their viewers, broadcasters do have a certain amount of liability about what they broadcast - and this extends into legal territory, not just SE's/Twitch's ToS. (And, you know - I know this was just hurling insults and very unlikely to escalate - but if it did escalate thanks to some dumb viewer, SE and Twitch could also potentially share some liability if it were shown they had reports they didn't act on.)

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It's a bit different when it's not a real life identity (which you can be banned for having on your stream of someone who didn't give permission), but even if a streamer went through all the steps they could to minimize the information, people can still find the information extremely easily -- namely, just going to FFlogs and looking up the parse from the encounter (that someone else in the party may have uploaded). While yes mitigating the possibility is good practice, it doesn't 100% solve the issue of people taking things into their own hands. And, in the latter case, the people who are taking actions into their own hands and actively going after a player, are the people who should be actioned.

I would say that I am less concerned about “slippery slope” and more concerned about cherry-picking situations for punishment. In other words: punishments still being as thoroughly inconsistent has they have always seemed, but now expanded to include evidence from third-party media...Except when it’s suddenly “too inconvenient” to take into account third-party evidence for specific reports.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

It's a bit different when it's not a real life identity (which you can be banned for having on your stream of someone who didn't give permission), but even if a streamer went through all the steps they could to minimize the information, people can still find the information extremely easily -- namely, just going to FFlogs and looking up the parse from the encounter (that someone else in the party may have uploaded). While yes mitigating the possibility is good practice, it doesn't 100% solve the issue of people taking things into their own hands. And, in the latter case, the people who are taking actions into their own hands and actively going after a player, are the people who should be actioned.

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You are right. It's shared responsibility, not 100% on either person.

That said, when a streamer has setup a special scene in their broadcast software that enlarges the insult target's name and draws special attention with extra animation and sounds... well, let's just say this isn't what I would call one of the very grey area cases? It's hard to not see that as encouraging the behavior, at least a little bit.

It would be a very different story if he only showed initials or blurred the name or similar. If someone is really determined to find out who that was, they could yes, but then the broadcaster would have done what they can to mitigate it over the medium they control. The broadcaster doesn't control FF logs, of course.

Also if the broadcaster had just kicked, blacklisted, and moved on, it'd have been a nonissue.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would say that I am less concerned about “slippery slope” and more concerned about cherry-picking situations for punishment. In other words: punishments still being as thoroughly inconsistent has they have always seemed, but now expanded to include evidence from third-party media...Except when it’s suddenly “too inconvenient” to take into account third-party evidence for specific reports.

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Pretty much and bots are a perfect example. Now they opened the door to anyone breaking the TOS, this includes modding, in a third party website can be reported.

Fun times are coming ahead of us since I'm 100% positive that people are going to use this in order to ban others.

Edit: Oh, I also forgot to mention all those FC selling clears for real money using Discord. Not banned because "outisde the game".

While I can understand people being concerned about SE suspending accounts based on things that happen outside the game, I also don't see a problem with how SE responded to this. When someone who is possibly considering playing FFXIV goes into a stream and sees a streamer repeatedly bashing someone for their skills or play style, that can turn the potential player away from the game forever. What game development company *wants* to have customers who act like the streamer did? How is that good for the community or for the business? Rants like that should be kept private.

It's not difficult to avoid a "slippery slope" or "grey line" when it comes to being in groups or avoiding suspensions or bans. Just don't act like an ass toward people. Think before you speak. Don't buy or sell gil. Don't sell your account. These are basic concepts which is why the vast majority of players are never suspended or banned.

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Originally Posted by goob

While I can understand people being concerned about SE suspending accounts based on things that happen outside the game, I also don't see a problem with how SE responded to this. When someone who is possibly considering playing FFXIV goes into a stream and sees a streamer repeatedly bashing someone for their skills or play style, that can turn the potential player away from the game forever. What game development company *wants* to have customers who act like the streamer did? How is that good for the community or for the business? Rants like that should be kept private.

It's not difficult to avoid a "slippery slope" or "grey line" when it comes to being in groups or avoiding suspensions or bans. Just don't act like an ass toward people. Think before you speak. Don't buy or sell gil. Don't sell your account. These are basic concepts which is why the vast majority of players are never suspended or banned.

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If you are going to enforce the TOS outside the game you do it for all cases.

Well there's a tool in game that if you disagree with the play style of someone you can break the bonds and give good bye.
But instead, people prefer to behave as a human in their early years and shame...
For me they did right. It was clear that the matter was not the parser but the behavior of said player.
Education, culture and posture. Gotta catch'em all.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

If you are going to enforce the TOS outside the game you do it for all cases.

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If you see something that you think violates the TOS, report it.

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Originally Posted by goob

If you see something that you think violates the TOS, report it.

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Like with the people selling clears or confessing having bots but since the conversation was on Discord can't be used as valid proof because "third party program"?

Edit: Let me add that the streamer, like many others, was beyond stupid and deserve a punishment coming his way from Twitch and not from SE, since this person never used the chat.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Like with the people selling clears or confessing having bots but since the conversation was on Discord can't be used as valid proof becouse "third party program"?

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Was it reported? Could SE identify using game data that the person used bots or sold clears?

In the case of the video, the evidence of the TOS violation was blatantly obvious.

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Originally Posted by goob

Was it reported? Could SE identify using game data that the person used bots or sold clears?

In the case of the video, the evidence of the TOS violation was blatantly obvious.

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Why for one thing in-game data is needed but for the streamer the video was enough?

Is not obvious enough that people selling content but requesting to join discord to discuss pricing are doing it for real money?

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Originally Posted by AmurT

I dunno why you're telling me that I can unsub.

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just the usual "consume, dont ask" mentality.

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Originally Posted by goob

Was it reported? Could SE identify using game data that the person used bots or sold clears?

In the case of the video, the evidence of the TOS violation was blatantly obvious.

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Yeah 'cuz they link to their discord username and # in the PF.

Trash-talking people isn't okay, but neither is having double standards with enforcement.

The GMs have gone on record as saying they don't take third party evidence and defying that for one specific case is really dumb when they've refused to accept things like footage or pictures of obvious botting and/or hacking in play. If this is punishable, there is absolutely no reason why things like the PF content sellers can't also be punished as getting on Discord to clarify whether there's actually RMT involved would be scarcely more difficult.

Arthars even admitted that he deserved the punishment and was mostly angry at them deciding to make a case exception for who knows what reason. The 10 day ban also seemed a bit excessive considering that it was (reputedly) a first time offense, too.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The 10 day ban also seemed a bit excessive considering that it was (reputedly) a first time offense, too.

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I think that the strike hit harder because the streamer influences/marketing more than a conventional player. So if one behave incorrectly the image of what the community is to a viewer that do not know the game is an aggravating issue for business.
And as we're in a streaming era, where people do the marketing "for free" or without a direct contract, it's in a POV to protect the name and product.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Pretty much and bots are a perfect example. Now they opened the door to anyone breaking the TOS, this includes modding, in a third party website can be reported.

Fun times are coming ahead of us since I'm 100% positive that people are going to use this in order to ban others.

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Naming a player and shaming their damage on a stream vs visual mods. Will these bans for modding be coming before or after the bans associated with the most recent revision to the ToS?

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Edit: Oh, I also forgot to mention all those FC selling clears for real money using Discord. Not banned because "outisde the game".

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That's never been stated as the reason they haven't been banned and it will never be, as that would legalize RMT. In fact, SE has never mentioned the PF sales in any capacity.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

If you are going to enforce the TOS outside the game you do it for all cases.

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Their product and their rules. They can decide which rules they want to enforce and when.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Like with the people selling clears or confessing having bots but since the conversation was on Discord can't be used as valid proof because "third party program"?

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STF deals with bots, RMT and third-party programs:

Report a case to the Special Task Force
"You can contact the Special Task Force (STF) to report illegal activity within FINAL FANTASY XIV (such as the use of third-party software or the use of RMT* to sell game data).
The Special Task Force exists for the purpose of dealing with illegal activity in FINAL FANTASY XIV while creating an honest and enjoyable gameplay environment."

If you select "Report use of third-party software", the form you receive has a field to input a URL.

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Originally Posted by AmurT

but they need to be consistent with this stuff and also start taking other forms of screenshot/video evidence as proof (I'm not going to go into screenshot/video forgery), as well as finally get crack down on Discord RMT advertisements in PF.

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Why? They haven't been consistent before and most didn't have any problems.

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Originally Posted by Tomoebi

just the usual "consume, dont ask" mentality.

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Had you asked for a link to the ToS or forum rules, you'd see that use of profanity, being critical of SE and speaking negatively about specific people (the streamer) aren't allowed.

"Private company" argument, I see. With your logic nothing can be questioned.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Why? They haven't been consistent before and most didn't have any problems.

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bruh momentum

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Originally Posted by Tomoebi

bruh momentum

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Yeah. Recurrent topic from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Yeah. Recurrent topic from time to time.

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yeah, if only someone in the forum ask squeenix to be consistent...
oh wait...

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Their product and their rules. They can decide which rules they want to enforce and when.

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Not going to comment on the rest of your post, but this is particularly bad on SE’s part to do (really, this extends to any company with terms of service). They have been repeatedly condemned on various platforms by a multitude of individuals in the past for their inconsistency with rule enforcement and punishment in this game (be it in-game enforcement or enforcement on official platforms such as these forums). Continuing to build their moderation on this cherry-picking mentality by now taking into account third-party evidence only when it’s suddenly convenient to do so—or only when they want to—is only going to be detrimental to them.

While this may be their playground, arbitrary and/or inconsistent rule enforcement is never met with positive reactions from people in the playground. And it honestly should not be a mentality anyone enforces. I’d rather see people advocating for fairer and more consistent moderation as opposed to supporting this. Again, this goes for any company; not just SE.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Trash-talking people isn't okay, but neither is having double standards with enforcement.

The GMs have gone on record as saying they don't take third party evidence and defying that for one specific case is really dumb when they've refused to accept things like footage or pictures of obvious botting and/or hacking in play. If this is punishable, there is absolutely no reason why things like the PF content sellers can't also be punished as getting on Discord to clarify whether there's actually RMT involved would be scarcely more difficult.

Arthars even admitted that he deserved the punishment and was mostly angry at them deciding to make a case exception for who knows what reason. The 10 day ban also seemed a bit excessive considering that it was (reputedly) a first time offense, too.

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The reason why they normally don't accept outside evidence is that it's easy to fake screen shots or pretend to be someone on discord also that account posting on PF is probably a sock account anyways so banning it would just be a minor annoyance to them, Arthurs is know streamer who they can guarantee without a doubt that he is the person on that account.

I also think there was suspensions in the past of people posting pics of certain mods on social media so it's not like they never do it.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

The reason why they normally don't accept outside evidence

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played this game week before ShB release, so i probably missed a lot of drama. but afaik its not "they normally dont accept outside evidence" but more like "they never accept outside evidence"

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

also that account posting on PF is probably a sock account anyways so banning it would just be a minor annoyance to them

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let's pretend that it is a sock account, doesnt rule still need to be enforced to be taken seriously??
i mean, that streamer also have an alt.

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Originally Posted by Tomoebi

played this game week before ShB release, so i probably missed a lot of drama. but afaik its not "they normally dont accept outside evidence" but more like "they never accept outside evidence"

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Uh its clear that they do accept outside evidence you can see in the conversation Arthurs had with the GM he linked the Twitch video as the reason why he is banned.

Did you not read what I said the reason GM's wont accept certain outside proof is if it cant be proven to be linked to that player in game. If you play the game on twitch and are streaming yourself playing that doubt doesn't exist and are still bound by the TOS and I already told you that ban's have happened via pics on social media in the past so "never" is not correct.

Arthars and Xeno are well known for being toxic, the sad part is I'm not surprised, I'm only surprised it took this long.

But if this now sets the precedent that you cannot absolutely "slander" players outside of the game, including Discord, that's the precedent that's set - as long as someone can find you bad mouthing another player and link whatever profile you have to your character, you'll get a 2 week ban for your troubles.

Man I'm going incognito on Discord, taking my char off Kupo bot and just never talking in PF again lol. I still remember when I got a two week ban from forums for sarcasm, yet I've said so much worse before that ban and after it and that is why it becomes absolutely impossible to draw the line, because the reality is I've always been a direct and harsh poster, but I stopped after my ban because SE transpired to be big softies, but then I saw what other people were getting away with and matched it. Will be painfully ironic if I get suspended again now, but it's the honest truth, your "grey area" is total trash lol.

And total trash is the understatement of the century, because when we, the PvP community, presented you complete undeniable evidence of players wintrading and selling boosts, you didn't care two moogles on the basis that it was outside evidence and so you couldn't accept it. Youtube videos, twitch vods, discord message logs where the player could clearly be linked to those accounts of players even admitting to do it - but because there was no /tell of it happening, you took zero action. There's one specific player that's been boosting around 15 accounts a season for over a year and it's at the point we just stopped reporting it because we couldn't prove it IN-GAME. The last player you banned in PvP? Oli - and only because he was stupid enough to sell his FRC account in the run-up the regionals - if he'd been smart enough to do it after; you would have never caught him lol; just like none of the other players who have blatantly sold their accounts with titles/mounts have been. What a colossal joke. The worst part is I constantly defend your inaction and I don't even know why.

I do not think harassment outside of game should be within the bounds of an FFXIV GM. I'd have to read over their ToS again, however.

If they were going to try to play the ultimatum game, trying to make me remove a vod or whatever, I wouldn't remove it.

He shouldn't be using illegal third party programs, period. More parse elitists, degenerate modders and cactbot cheaters need to be banned.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I do not think harassment outside of game should be within the bounds of an FFXIV GM. I'd have to read over their ToS again, however.

If they were going to try to play the ultimatum game, trying to make me remove a vod or whatever, I wouldn't remove it.

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The ToS specifies that it applies as long as the activity is connected to the game it applies so streaming the game would fall under that category.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

The ToS specifies that it applies as long as the activity is connected to the game it applies so streaming the game would fall under that category.

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They shouldn't have the power or think that they have the power to force takedown a video. That should be taken up with the video streaming service. From what I have gathered they are giving this player an ultimatum, because of this, Ridiculous. "Take it down or harsher punishment" right? Heck to the no, they want it down, they better do it properly.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

He shouldn't be using illegal third party programs, period. More parse elitists, degenerate modders and cactbot cheaters need to be banned.

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While they could theoretically ban every streamer who uses parsers and gets reported under this policy they're following, it's doubtful they ever will because they're plenty aware of how much backlash they'd get.

I'm all for them doing away with people if they're open about using bots and hacks, though.

Badmouthing other players is the highest chance you will get banned in this game period.

What about all these players trying to sell Ultimate and Savage Clears in PF or boosting players to top 100 in Feast they dont seem to give a fuck up about this kind of abuse.

Third party programs is not high on the list either alot of the big streamers are using ACT triggers and parsers when they stream and SE doenst really give a fuck.

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Originally Posted by snipski

Third party programs is not high on the list either alot of the big streamers are using ACT triggers and parsers when they stream and SE doenst really give a fuck.

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You can use parsers, but you shouldn't give people hell about it.
From what I heard Arthars did drag the 'bad' people their names on stream and highlighted them with sound effects and whatnot, making it even worse.