Battle High needs to go.

As much as I understand Battle High is a means for overcoming the opposition, the problem stems from Battle High granting benefits as long as you don't die. I think this should change, only to reflect who has been giving huge contributions and not some end-all be-all buff that can steamroll games. The moment a group has 5 Battle High Vs on DPS, everyone else is toast. Sure, you can burn them down, but they're difficult to kill not only because of the DPS they can do, but also the healing that's given by healers since they're going to get a lot of Assists.

The problem presented however by removing Battle High is that games will go longer. Is it worth removing the buff to only be an indicator of team contribution for games to run the clock down?

Just get your own battle highs and kill their battle high's.

Just with killstreak benefits in games in general, I can see why they might seem bad to have someone who is ahead get more ahead, though the reality of not-dying being the mathematically correct way to win is not enough to condition self-preservation and to dissuade reckless action. Some kind of benefit that encourages you to not only stay alive but get a lot of kills while doing so is a nice way of supercharging psychological reward systems to get people to play better. It is no foolproof and a BH is not always indicative of good play, though good players will have them often.

There is also having to weigh the opposite outcry, of when people moan about there not being enough ways for an individual to make a big difference in 72-player PvP... which is entirely false. A player who plays well will of course make a sweeping impact with or without BH, though I think some kind of visual indicator for allies and enemies alike of who is performing well creates a lot of fun and interesting dynamics. The system that is having the same few melee DPS pulverize one team, is also the system that might, say, allow a veterans to leverage the load of someone new to PvP a little better and feel like you have a little more agency in your victory if you know how to play.

There are some general momentum problems where a winning team has a host of BHs which can lead to a more oppressive lead, though I don't think that is symptomatic with the BH system itself. Stuff like the impending changes to force freelance to break player distribution apart is a nice start, and they can look at more comeback systems if they feel they are necessary, though I regularly see teams in a dumpster at the start come around to something near the end of things so for the most part I think it's fine. I think melee are scaling too well with BH, though I think there are some lethality issues largely a result of the +15% damage on melee being unnecessary.

Dont remove it, but maybe you can give ot to people who snatch the ground too... killing give to much reward in the new pvp, and ninja too op

This rendition of Battle High is what I think really is the problem (disregarding the change of premades to 4 and the GC sync stuff). The old Battle High required you to get four kills (then eight for Fever) without dying to receive a buff to damage done. You lost it all if you died once and had to start again. People easily got around it by killing the person, making them lose their damage boost. This also was a deterrent for having someone extend too far and getting too greedy for kills.

The new Battle High system allows you to stack it without killing anyone, with 2 points for an assist, while killing gives 10. I could assist 50 kills without a kill myself and get Battle High V and only cast Fire once on them each time. It is also coupled with the fact that if you die, you only lose half the damage boost that you had pre-death. So High V lowers to High II on death, which still gives a boost. The assist system allows for more Battle Highs across a team that is destroying others, which then leads into destroying the other players even more than before. There's no serious repercussion for dying if you only lose a portion of the boost compared to the whole boost.

With the old system, you could have one person with Fever and some pocket healers do outstanding damage and carry, but now that everyone on their team ALSO has access to the buff, it just leads to more snowball, even if you kill the person who is contributing the most.

Though there are some strength problems with some melee DPS that need to really be addressed (hello, ninja), this is what some of the general problems with new Battle High are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

Dont remove it, but maybe you can give ot to people who snatch the ground too... killing give to much reward in the new pvp, and ninja too op

---

But.. it's PVP. Player VS Player. The main goal is to fight each other, everything else is a side objective. Sitting on nodes for 10+min is boring as hell.

The tank/melee innate damage/defense buff needs to go. It was needed in 4.5 when they added it, but the recent changes to PvP and Battle High make it ridiculously overkill.

Only change I'd like to see to Battle High, given Yoshida has said they're planning to change the value of points earned from kills, is for points earned from kills to be based on peoples Battle High Meter. A basic example, but the amount one loses from dying on that meter, should be the value earned in objective points. That makes killing people with Battle High V very lucrative, while farming the same <10 Battle High points players over and over is practically worthless.

As a Caster, stacking up battle high is a really good motivation to play safe, especially as RDM. I can snowball in the late game with it. The problem here is that some jobs (lol ninja) doesn't have a lot of risk involved to play like Ninja and get it way too easy and do stupid damage.

How about modifying the Battle High so that the team in first can't have the buff.. use it as a catchup mechanic for the teams in 2nd an 3rd place?

1st no buff allowed unless dropping to 2nd or 3rd
2nd only gets BH from actual kills no assist bonus.
3rd Kills an Assist add to BH.

Appon reaching 1st place your team loses all BH buffs and team that went to 2nd or 3rd can start building their?

Maybe give a full Adrenaline bar to those that lose BH by reaching 1st place?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

The tank/melee innate damage/defense buff needs to go. It was needed in 4.5 when they added it, but the recent changes to PvP and Battle High make it ridiculously overkill

---

Maybe remove the damage buff but don't remove the defense buff.

If you remove the defense buff, people will go back to only playing as casters/ranged, like how it was before 4.5.

Consider playing as melee/tank yourself to make it harder for your opponents to kill you.

No, you just need to permanent reset the gauge when killed since it is too easy to build up the gauge.

This is what playing passively early in the match gets you, people considering the removal of battle high because they still havent understood that the new battle high encourages more pvp and they just want to do objectives only


pveing in a pvp gamemode doesnt work anymore, adapt or stop queueing pls (:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crit

This is what playing passively early in the match gets you, people considering the removal of battle high because they still havent understood that the new battle high encourages more pvp and they just want to do objectives only


pveing in a pvp gamemode doesnt work anymore, adapt or stop queueing pls (:

---

Nah, we will just complain until SE removes anything that causes any difficulty at all, it's an objective based mode, we should be able to run around getting objectives without having to deal with PvP.

Might I suggest simply not queuing up for PvP modes if you... *ahem* "Don't want to deal with PvP"?

Imagine queuing up for a Raid and proceeding to complain about how you have to do PvE fights instead of gathering or some such bs... "I'm a gathering main, I'm just here for the 2B pants, let me fish in this pond while you guys clear the raid please"

But I want my mount and glamours! I should be able to get them without having to deal with stuff like organized opposition, and systems that reward people for doing well, or really just all this combat in an objective based mode. SE plz nerf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

The tank/melee innate damage/defense buff needs to go. It was needed in 4.5 when they added it, but the recent changes to PvP and Battle High make it ridiculously overkill.

---

Removing the defence buff on melee and especially on tanks is a bad idea. This is just the dynamic of how a game with attacks that have finite range work. If we want tanks engaging to break up standoffs, we need a system where if one player exposes themselves to a greater range of opposition, they need something more than higher HP count and potions to make that feasible. In The Feast, who is getting attacked is more about who the players want to attack, while in FL it is more about who can be attacked without over-extending. The different design needs are such that we need a leverage to give melee and tank a chance to use their kits, while having a simple lever to tweak that won't impact The Feast, since turning on melee or tanks in The Feast should be an available option.

I do think the damage bonus is unnecessary, and I do think the bonuses are communicated very poorly, though I don't think there is anything wrong with melee and tank having passive damage reduction in FL. It could be debated tanks and melee should have separate amounts but I at least appreciate the modularity of the developer's approach.

They won’t move the buff from Meele and Tanks; it is there for a reason. You don’t get run and gun without drawback like casting time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crit

This is what playing passively early in the match gets you, people considering the removal of battle high because they still havent understood that the new battle high encourages more pvp and they just want to do objectives only

---

Delete this.

The current "battle high from assists" system just creates an unstoppable snowball team that cannot be countered regardless of personal skill or even coordination after the first 5 minutes of play.

The pre-5.1 meta allowed you to salvage matches and come from behind.

The new battle high system creates one all powerful zerg company unstoppably gobbling up the other team. You may as well just sit down and have a tea party once it's reached that point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by plasmacutter

Delete this.

The current "battle high from assists" system just creates an unstoppable snowball team that cannot be countered regardless of personal skill or even coordination after the first 5 minutes of play.

The pre-5.1 meta allowed you to salvage matches and come from behind.

The new battle high system creates one all powerful zerg company unstoppably gobbling up the other team. You may as well just sit down and have a tea party once it's reached that point.

---

delete this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

delete this

---

Delete your meme. Cutter made a point about it and this is really why they need to rework Battle High. The buffs themselves are a bit too strong and can even outweigh someone who has Battle High I or no Battle High at all since the Damage Buff is ridiculous in Frontlines.

Spam AOEs as a noob player
Get assists towards BH
???
Profit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiche

Spam AOEs as a noob player
Get assists towards BH
???
Profit

---

End up on the "non-premade" grand company, coordinate with your team, smash face first into the great wall of dozens of +5's, die before the hits render on your screen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Delete your meme. Cutter made a point about it and this is really why they need to rework Battle High. The buffs themselves are a bit too strong and can even outweigh someone who has Battle High I or no Battle High at all since the Damage Buff is ridiculous in Frontlines.

---

always funny how the people who are never seen or heard from in this section despite actively posting on forums then show up here and then have the audacity to tell us what good balance looks like after 30 frontlines and about 50 games of feast in their entire game account's lifespan. Which wouldn't be bad, if it actually made sense and was a good suggestion and can't simply be passed off as your severe lack of experience. People like you, are like seagulls. You show up whenever there's something "new", spew all your feathers with all your big city girl ideas, then fly away in your flock until the next big pvp event or reward comes out. You will therefore understand why I stopped taking 90% of the posts in here seriously.

i give it a month before you vanish again. If you're the meme does that mean I have to delete you? ye sound fam. safe g.

I don't PVP primarily in XIV, though I queue for Frontlines a bit more often now with the new map, and played a bit in Stormblood some.

But, personally speaking, I find Battle High fun. It's pretty easy to get, sure, but I like there being some tangible reward for personally fighting other players and fighting feels a lot more commonplace on the new map, compared to the old ones. If nothing else, at least there being a reason to go out fighting -- and while the points you get from kills is another reason, the progression of strength for playing well in the sense of self-preservation and being able to pick your own battles feels good. But, I don't take this mode all that seriously (I try to win, sure, but I'm not like... caring about how many FL wins I get, or my overall stats, or my overall performance all the time, nor do I care what job is broken in FL specifically: I'm not sweating to win. Like, how people would sweat to win in... Ranked Feast, I'd assume).

I guess, sure, premades'll smash groups and stuff... but they'll do that without the buff, too.

And Frontlines never felt like a "competitive" PvP mode to me, I've played tons of PvP in other MMO's/Games and it always seemed like the "fun" mode like an ARAM in League of Legends, or unranked games in GW2, or even World PvP in other titles. Especially when you have 72 players involved, and 3 teams, it just seems like something that'll never be truly a "balanced" experience and is intended to be more... just have some fun.

Even if I didn't like the mode previously due to being, basically, afk entire matches sitting on nodes and reading "let them fight" in alliance chat, which isn't even... really PvP at that point, tbh.

I dunno, that's my take on it. I'm not super hard into PvP, but I've probly played 500 or so games across my characters from... 4.4? To now.

I've been smashed through by teams with it, but at the end of the day they're usually the teams that decided to PvP so I'm never particularly salty about it. Jus what happens when you got 72 people in one fight, really. Kinda feels if you want it to be competitive, you'd have to remove 1 team from the mix, make sure the spawn sides are all identical to each other so there's no inherent terrain advantage from the start, and then you'd need to start balancing jobs/classes for the particular mode that has massive globs of people in it, which could adversely affect balance in the mode SE considers competitive (Ranked Feast). And then remove any gained over-time benefit period, so everyone is always on an even playing field in terms of their stats all the time so there's always that "even" playing field perpetually and it'd come down to who pushes buttons better/moves as a group better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by plasmacutter

Delete this.

The current "battle high from assists" system just creates an unstoppable snowball team that cannot be countered regardless of personal skill or even coordination after the first 5 minutes of play.

The pre-5.1 meta allowed you to salvage matches and come from behind.

The new battle high system creates one all powerful zerg company unstoppably gobbling up the other team. You may as well just sit down and have a tea party once it's reached that point.

---

It only seems impossible to come back when a team already has a massive snowball because your team or the other team become too discouraged to do anything about it. Literally sandwiching the team with highs who will presumably have the most points... both teams would converge on that singular team like an oreo, and it doesn't matter if they're all battle high tier 5, its impossible to fight two fronts. This already happens in some matches and the battle high team retreats or fends off the sandwiches how? Maybe because both teams are just mechanically inept and dont focus on a single target one by one.

If only any of you played mana frontlines, you'd see how it is when 3 premades fight each other and how every match is a tug of war between points because of how the objectives encourage conflict and how 3 way wars disgustingly encourage 2v1 tactics with sandwiching when it's done properly. NA and EU frontline players just queue up with a freeloader mentality, not to mechanically improve or try to win as a unit.

It would be cool if they made battle high a temporary buff (1-2) min for the whole alliance that is only obtainable from either killing a powerful monster that only spawns once or twice each game or holding a specific objective (a mix between league of legends Baron buff and the Goblin train in rival wings). Could see all 3 teams strategically fighting for it (should we ignore objectives for this, or are we going to take objectives while other teams fight for the buff).

Too many players don’t even get off their mounts anymore. They just run with the group and hang out in the back. Too many passive players. I count 8 on my team and 5 on the other about to clash. 4 on my team don’t even get off the damn mount so instead of hitting a weak group, the 4 engaged get crushed with the other 4 looking on like a dumb joke.

+1 to the OP. Battle High needs to go, the reward for coordinating and setting up with your team is extra points, that's enough of a bonus.

As for the people saying it "encourages PVP" I patently disagree with you. The reason being I've seen the battle high players before, they immediately run away and disengage, they tend to hang out further back and be more passive unless they've got a pocket healer babysitting them as they'd rather protect their precious buff than actually use it.

Edit: If your concern is about that making things take too long because of tank HP/Healers then that means Battle High is only a band aid fix to that and not the correct solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Delete This.

---

Even if what you say can be said for some people on here, it doesn’t mean they can’t have an understanding on glaring issues. Considering they did nothing aside from HP increases to address Melee along with Med Kits...

As for calling people seagulls on the other hand, I would take you seriously if you didn’t just tell someone to delete their comment just because it doesn’t fit your views without creating an argument. Just saying “delete this” without prior reasoning is simply being in heavy disagreement without even putting forth an argument with evidence puts you on about the same level as most trolls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khalithar

The reason being I've seen the battle high players before, they immediately run away and disengage, they tend to hang out further back and be more passive unless they've got a pocket healer babysitting them as they'd rather protect their precious buff than actually use it.

---

It's called smart play, what battle fever dude is going to run head first, in front just to get insta focused by a whole alliance? BH and people who know what theyre doing as dps will have a mix of staying middle of the pack, whilst pushing in groups just incase of focused attacks. Battle fever players and vets get marked as well it makes sense to be cautious to not waste the buff by needlessly dying. Battle fever players using ranged attacks and aoes, does more than you think especially to the average dps u get in fl... There's a reason why at the end you see people with 20+ kills and huge damage numbers, which of course makes it encourage pvp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Even if what you say can be said for some people on here, it doesn’t mean they can’t have an understanding on glaring issues. Considering they did nothing aside from HP increases to address Melee along with Med Kits...

As for calling people seagulls on the other hand, I would take you seriously if you didn’t just tell someone to delete their comment just because it doesn’t fit your views without creating an argument. Just saying “delete this” without prior reasoning is simply being in heavy disagreement without even putting forth an argument with evidence puts you on about the same level as most trolls.

---

lol ok mate, and that right there, is why i cant be bothered, you dont have deep enough knowledge for me to put my point across for you to understand if you cant see the effect that's had on balance (which is really obvious btw), if you're running ill do a relay with you, but you have to learn how to walk first.

You’re talking some heavy crap by saying that at the end there. Not that I’m going to argue with you, but I’m going to prove a point: The 15% Damage on Melee is still going to do a lot for them when they manage Battle High V in proper play. And as people have said, the Assist system causes a snowball effect that heavily influences the match once somebody gets ahead.

The increased HP for Ranged was needed given their HP was below that of a Healer’s; they needed to be brought up so they aren’t always focused down. As for Med Kits, it’s fine; but when Healers got their HP bumped up to 17.5k and Melee didn’t lose their damage benefit in Frontline, it feels overtuned. The Damage Reduction can stay for sure since they need it to survive as Melee but Ranged are of course going to be the main targets yet again since they’re more frail than Melee are; all it takes is one good gap closer or Stun to get them and focus them down.

I can see why battle high exists as a mechanic: it's compensation for how the winning team ought to get mercilessly ganged up on by the other two teams. I don't like it, I don't enjoy it, but I can definitely see why the designers added an anti-bash-the-leader mechanic. It just feels terribly unfair on an individual level because the way to counterbalance it isn't in your hands, or even your teammates hands, but in the hands of the third team as well. It makes me wish for a 2-team frontline mode, or at least a simple 8v8. I don't even like battle high on the rare occasion that I've got it; when I look down and notice, thinking that I'm playing well, just knowing that I've got huge stat boosts cheapens everything that I achieved after building it.

Let this thread die

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

You’re talking some heavy crap by saying that at the end there. Not that I’m going to argue with you, but I’m going to prove a point: The 15% Damage on Melee is still going to do a lot for them when they manage Battle High V in proper play. And as people have said, the Assist system causes a snowball effect that heavily influences the match once somebody gets ahead.

The increased HP for Ranged was needed given their HP was below that of a Healer’s; they needed to be brought up so they aren’t always focused down. As for Med Kits, it’s fine; but when Healers got their HP bumped up to 17.5k and Melee didn’t lose their damage benefit in Frontline, it feels overtuned. The Damage Reduction can stay for sure since they need it to survive as Melee but Ranged are of course going to be the main targets yet again since they’re more frail than Melee are; all it takes is one good gap closer or Stun to get them and focus them down.

---

The HP increase is more than enough for ranged.

Ranged have range advantage and they could shoot out few skills before melees will be able to close distance to them, this is why melees have bonuses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crit

Let this thread die

---

[ ] Disagree
[ ] Agree
[ ] No Opinion
[ ] Agree
[/] Strongly Agree

Never let this thread die. MAYBE it'd be fine if it was only tied to damage, but the fact that tanks are punished for wading into the thick of combat, and rewarded for playing extremely passive and just sniping kills? RDPS is punished for trying to use its AoEs and rewarded for sitting at max range just throwing out single-target? Melee DPS not only goes from kinda tanky steady damage to one-shot assassins, they also heal about 3 players' worth of damage with their combo??

It really needs to not boost healing, and the melee and tank healing stuff not be directly tied to damage. It encourages such a passive playstyle that just isn't healthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhais

Nah, we will just complain until SE removes anything that causes any difficulty at all, it's an objective based mode, we should be able to run around getting objectives without having to deal with PvP.

---

In frontline, it's now Pedestal vs. Pedestal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lindwyrm

Never let this thread die. MAYBE it'd be fine if it was only tied to damage, but the fact that tanks are punished for wading into the thick of combat, and rewarded for playing extremely passive and just sniping kills? RDPS is punished for trying to use its AoEs and rewarded for sitting at max range just throwing out single-target? Melee DPS not only goes from kinda tanky steady damage to one-shot assassins, they also heal about 3 players' worth of damage with their combo??

It really needs to not boost healing, and the melee and tank healing stuff not be directly tied to damage. It encourages such a passive playstyle that just isn't healthy.

---

Are you raise your voice for those Ranges who always stand in meele range for no apparent reason, do not pay attention to the surrounding and still mindless button smashing even target already used Retaliation?

or...

Are you trying to complains for those Tanks who do not know how to set up kills for the team and just stand there still thinks they are the Tanks from Stormblood?

or..

Are you explain about meeles players of taking advantages from above two types because they are feeding them?

Maybe not a complete Removal, but a rework might be in Order. I would be fine if its removed but im sure the people going into Frontlines for the Daily rewards would avoid Fights even more than they do now.