Hey there, Roxanne Stoner here once again!
After a couple of days of organizing, I've created a google doc and several tables comparing early openers (the ones most people use) versus delayed openers (the ones I made a list of here). This isn't a guide, but rather evidence in order to prove my claims that delaying raid buffs and abilities can be optimal.
Be sure to read the first section on how I calculated everything before moving on to the actual table comparisons. I tried to keep everything consistent and while multiplier and potency calculations should be fine, the timestamp for oGCDs and buff application is probably inaccurate here and there. ^^;
At the moment I've only completed 4 comparisons: NIN, RDM, DRG, and BRD. I plan to update the doc with more comparisons over time, but for now I thought I'd try a different approach and start things slowly to get a discussion going.
Anyway, here's the link to the doc. Look forward to future updates!
FF14 5.1 Early vs Delayed Openers
Early Vs Delay Openers
Printable View
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12-09-2019, 12:55 PMOxdarockEarly Vs Delay Openers
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12-09-2019, 02:27 PMSaberMaxwell
"This is because auto-attacks are based on strength, which RDM has next to none of. Therefore, it can be concluded that all oGCDs are magic damage."
RDM's INT stat controls its physical damage as well as its healing potency. To claim otherwise you'd be claiming Holy Spirit was physical damage just because PLD's STR stat controls its damage. When a tooltip says "Delivers an attack" like Fleche and Riposte do, it's a physical attack. Enchanted Riposte reads "Deals unaspected magic damage" as a comparison, meaning the damage is magical. -
12-09-2019, 02:36 PMOxdarockAh. I see your point. In that case, what are RDM's auto-attacks based off of and are all of RDM's oGCDs affected by BH?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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12-09-2019, 02:41 PMJukebox12I'm trying not to laugh here but yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
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12-09-2019, 02:44 PMSaberMaxwellRDM autos themselves are based on their Strength stat (there is also an auto-attack statistic on the weapon itself), and Brotherhood should (I'd have to go and check) affect Fleche for instance. However, given Fleche is not a weaponskill it would not grant the Monk any chakras. For comparison, in a party with a second Red Mage, their embolden would affect your Fleche but your embolden would not affect your own because of that distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
It's good that RDM autos don't hit very hard, or Red Mage would be at a severe disadvantage if it ever had to go to range for ranged DPS mechanics. -
12-09-2019, 02:50 PMOxdarockAh, ok then. I might take a minute to check as well, but if BH affects RDM's oGCDs, then it affects both the 2nd CaC and Displacement in both openers, as well as the 2nd Fleche in the delayed opener. Gonna have to update the chart to account for this, but this means that the delayed opener still benefits RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Thank you very much for clearing that up. -
12-09-2019, 11:21 PMMatthew_Fox
Hey can you kindly stop presenting wrong information. Would be big appreciated if you could not spread wrong info and let people who actually know how to play these jobs do it.
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12-10-2019, 12:10 AMLavieh
Thanks for all of your hardwork. I really wish there was a place where a lot of people could quickly come together and theorycraft stuff like this. They could then double check each others work with math, spreadsheets and maybe even sims.
Oh well, what can you do.
I look forward to seeing what you say about DNC, I don't know anything about that job. -
12-10-2019, 02:53 PMRenkei
from the math ive done DRG actually deals far more damage at 2.34 GCD, but the problem is Theory ends up only working in a vaccum so its not (To Much De-syncing. . The Best Opener so far for DRG, is
True Thrust + Potion < Disembowel + Dragon Sight + Lance Charge < Chaos Thrust + True North + Litany < Wheeling + High Jump < Fang + Geirskogul + Dive < Raiden + Spineshatter < Vorpal + Life Surge < Full Thrust + Dragon Fire <=
This is currently the opener people are using for DRG for the Early Opener, So your observation about High Jump is 100% Correct.
I think its this way because SE Didn't intend people to double weave Lance Charge and Litany in the Opener. it weirds me out everytime i think about it lol. -
12-10-2019, 03:13 PMOxdarockYeah, I can see that. Aside from more casts over a fight due to higher sks (as well as more auto-attack and DoT damage), the faster tiers makes it easier to hit 9 GCDs within DRG's buff windows (mind you, I'm not telling people where to place their stat priority). I've read that desyncing starts to become an issue at higher speeds, but also that there's a specific method on how to realign your buffs based on the Disembowel duration, so I guess it becomes a matter of preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
But yeah, glad to see that my observation was correct, though I'm a bit worried about the BL placement. If it's for the sake of raid utility, then I get it, but not having that up for CT can't be good for DRG's damage. ^^; Still curious about the placement of the other oGCDs if there's a RDM in the party though, but thank you for clearing that up. -
12-10-2019, 03:16 PMOxdarockWell, the good news is, I've figured out an adjustment to the DNC opener I came up with that lines TF up better with the other buffs and solves an issue with Flourish that it had. So I might actually work on that next.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavieh
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12-11-2019, 04:31 AMZerathor
I guess sarcasm really is hard to read online to be fair...
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12-11-2019, 09:49 AMBloodRubyXIII actually feel bad for laughing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerathor
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12-18-2019, 01:17 AMAthenasSpear1995
Your math and comparison technique is flawed.
You cant say that the delayed opener is higher potency than the already made opener when your timelines include winddown/unbuffed gcds for dragoon and all the other classes so far as part of your "comparison". It fudges the numbers.
Using your sheets and going for potency per second (pps) of the actual opener for dragoon you come up with 457.6 pps over the actual period of the opener while your delayed opener comes out to 430 pps.
Same can be said for all other classes
Balance RDM opener: 310.4 pps Yours: 276.6 pps
Balance NIN opener: 613.3 pps Yours: 509.6 pps
PLEASEEE stop spreading misinformation
*UPDATE*
Balance BRD 285.7 yours 279 -
12-18-2019, 01:31 AMNeela
got the feeling misinformation is getting trendy lately... : /
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12-18-2019, 03:41 AMKDSilver
You should open a discord named the Bole.
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12-18-2019, 04:25 AMAkiudoyou literally made me spill my coffee... you owe me a new oneQuote:
Originally Posted by KDSilver
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12-18-2019, 08:18 AMOxdarockYou can't make a comparison between openers without putting them in under similar situations. All openers are done under a 36 second time frame and are able to get a similar number of GCDs and oGCDs out within it. The same way the Early opener comparisons contain GCDs towards the end that are unbuffed, the Delayed openers contain GCDs that are unbuffed in the beginning. If it seems like some comparison tables for the Early openers have more GCDs unbuffed towards the end than unbuffed GCDs in the Delayed ones, then that's the fault of the raid alignment and that's what I'm trying to point out to people.Quote:
Originally Posted by AthenasSpear1995
If you put two players using the same class and similar GCD rotations but different oGCD timings together side by side on a striking dummy, then if one gets more oGCDs out than the other, then naturally it does more damage. However, if both manage to get the same number of GCDs out, then the deciding factor becomes buff alignment, in which case, more buffs over more GCDs and oGCDs equals more damage.
But I've only just covered four classes and two managed to balance themselves out while the other are in favor of Delayed openers. I'll be sure to cover more in the future, so look forward to it. :) -
12-18-2019, 08:23 AMOxdarockI appreciate the flattery, you know, since the Bole actually gives a damage buff now. But I'm just a simple MNK using simple math to try and get people to think outside the box. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by KDSilver
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12-18-2019, 11:37 AMOneTrueMiqoteBut people have thought outside the box. And then, with sophisticated simulators and proper mathematics, they realized that it's an inferior idea and dismissed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
Your entire "argument" that delayed buffs are a gain are based off (and you've said this many times yourself) your simple and flawed math, when calculations for rotations and potencies require far more understanding of basically everything. You are presenting something as better but with a bad proof to why it's better. Do you not see why this logic is outright wrong? -
12-18-2019, 11:51 AMKabooaYou laugh, but it was the only card that kept its 20% base!Quote:
Originally Posted by KDSilver
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12-18-2019, 12:04 PMSatarnFixed that for ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
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01-19-2020, 12:00 AMOxdarock
Hello again, everyone! I've just recently updated the Early vs Delayed Openers Doc I started up a month and a half ago.
I'm actually pretty glad I did this. Not only did it allow me to find mistakes and make adjustments, but what was once a theory that relied on faith has now become conviction backed by math. There definitely might be some timing differences when put into actual practice with some GCDs and oGCDs missing buff windows by the slimmest of margins, but hopefully this is enough to convince people of my claim about the potential of delayed openers. Regardless, I believe it whole heartedly, but people can play the game how they want.
Anyway, shout out to Izsha here on the forums for their advice (and persuasive word choice) on providing evidence to back up my claims (which I really should have done at the start, lol) and to everyone who provided feedback through the several threads regarding these openers. Until SE decides to make a drastic change to a class (hint, hint, fix Anatman), I think I'll take a break on the theorycrafting for a while. Hope this helps everybody! :cool: -
01-22-2020, 12:07 AMYandere-chan
Looking at the document, I take it that the goal is to get a net gain by readjusting every class's opener so every possible buff lines up together with every class's strongest bursts? I'm just curious how this would work if not all the buffs are present for the particular party or how it affects damage down the line since these adjustments would affect everyone's rotations post the opener. Would they realign again naturally later in the fight? Will it still be a net gain with the adjustments needed between then? Would this slowly lose damage the longer the fight goes on? How short would a fight need to be for this to be a net gain if that's the case?
Obviously, this would require a lot of coordination too since everyone would actually lose damage if all the buffs didn't line up as planned, yeah? So in pugs, it's safe to assume that the more generally optimal early opener is better either way? Just curious of these things since they do of course matter. I think it's an interesting concept either way, adjusting a team's openings to better line up with buffs; I'm just curious how it all loops back to retain this synchronization of buffs and bursts and how it pans out depending on the team makeup. -
01-22-2020, 05:02 PMOxdarockYes, that’s exactly the goal of this document, to get a net gain by lining buffs with every classes' strongest burst. It uses an extreme example of having the most percentage based raid buffs in the party, but if buffs are missing, then naturally the gain is less, though this is true for early openers as well. The most noticeable change to the rotation with delayed openers is that certain oGCDs come off cooldown 1-3 GCDs later than their earlier counterparts. Other than that, there’s no particularly drastic change in the rotation, which means everything should keep this alignment so long as nothing needs to be held, with everything lining up again at the 6 minute mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yandere-chan
As for net gain in relation to fight duration, it should continue to increase so long as nothing is held and the rotation is continued like normal. However, it becomes a loss if that 1-3 GCD delay causes one to miss a portion of their burst window, or a particularly hard hitting GCD/oGCD that they’d normally be able to fit in using an earlier opener mid-fight due to mechanics, phase shifting, and sometimes add phases or dps checks (not the end of the fight since the boss dying sooner is typically a good thing). No amount of raid buffs can make up for an extra cast. The most well-known example of this is the GNB opener for E3S, in which they go into their burst window even sooner than in the early version, all so that they don’t miss a portion of a burst later on due to Maelstrom.
As for what openers to use in a pug scenario, I’d agree that using the early openers would be best in terms of keeping everything optimal with no coordination. The early openers have been around long enough to be considered standard, so there’s a good chance that other people will be using them. The only openers where the version you use is mostly irrelevant are PLD, BLM, and SAM, all of whom don’t particularly care about team comp and do their own thing. I will say that while the delayed SAM opener does more damage due to being ahead two GCDs, I’m not 100% sure if it’s an overall gain due to things like filler combos and/or ad hoc style play. However, the BLM delayed opener is a gain in most scenarios as the combination of F1 and F3 does more damage than a sixth F4 while still fitting in the same time frame, with Swiftcast timing being the main difference. MNK’s also in a similar situation since Anatman shenanigans make that opener inconsistent while the TK opener can still fit pretty well into most other classes’ rotations, even with the delayed BH timing. -
01-22-2020, 09:13 PMOneTrueMiqoteQuote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
If you had said something like "here is an idea, it may be true, it might not be true, but feel free to explore it!", it would have been fine. But this is exactly why people accuse you of spreading misinformation. Not because they are against your "new" ideas, but because you give out information that are based on your FLAWED logic and calculations and state them to be TRUE. I have seen you admit individual mistakes and correct them, but you have been unwilling to admit that you do not have sufficient understanding of this game's jobs nor the mathematical skills required (yes, your spreadsheet with elementary math is not enough) to analyze the complicity of openers. Being dismissive of this criticism will not help you improve at what you set out to do and will only cause more confusion to uninformed players, which is why your posts here have been bashed to oblivion. -
01-23-2020, 12:18 AMPyurBlueF1 + F3 proc is less DPS than F4. The casts happen back to back, but the former still costs you 2 GCD's of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxdarock
180+240/5 = 84 PPS
300/2.8 = 107 PPS -
01-23-2020, 01:54 AMxxPheNoMeNa
I'm not gonna discuss every job upon reading this, although I can tell the information is not correct. But strictly referring to the SMN portions, your logic is extremely flawed and misleading.
You even make a generic explanation that says "As you can see, the delayed opener pulls ahead of the early opener by 444.5 potency, mainly due to the extra Ifrit attack, the extra R4 and both Akh Morns within Devotion, and the extra DoT ticks of the first Tri. And like the BRD opener, this gap will remain unless the boss becomes untargetable with 12 seconds left on both DoTs in the delayed rotation, although it’ll still fall short due to the way Devotion is set up for the remainder of the fight (i.e. allowing the use of two Akh Morns/Revelations and an extra R4 in every Devotion window)."
In reality, such a potency gain doesn't exist, and I'll explain why:
1. You don't "gain" an extra ifrit auto attack just by delaying the Bahamut. You could argue that you'll "gain" a very small amount of potency by pushing an additional auto attack into raid buffs, but you don't gain an auto attack outright. If Bahamut is used earlier, that auto attack will just occur after Bahamut finishes.
2. I doubt you can even get both akh morns on Devotion using your proposed opener, considering you're listing the 2nd Akh Morn 7 GCDs after the Devotion weave (and assuming the pet AI isn't botched, Devotion would cast right around the time you're using it). 7 GCDs @ 2.5s = 17.5s of time, not including the additional time that would be added on due to GCD delays with hardcast GCDs (what we refer to as the "Caster tax"), or the time required to actually weave oGCDs. Devotion is only a 15 second duration.
3. You aren't "gaining" DoT ticks either. What you are doing is simply avoiding clipping your Tri-Disaster into opener raid buffs and instead electing to hold it (though, you don't list a 2nd Tri-D in your opener despite it being 16 GCDs long, so I don't know where you're proposing to use your 2nd Tri-Disaster). But either way, the choice of clipping your Tri-Disaster early vs. not does not magically gain you DoT ticks, as DoTs will always be up on your target to gain server ticks regardless.
4. You probably didn't even realize that this would be an issue, but the proposed Bahamut rotation you're advocating would even cost you a Wyrmwave cast. If you're weaving your 2nd Akh Morn in the 6th GCD of your bahamut rotation, your final 2 GCDs MUST be instant casts to ensure those final Wyrmwaves don't ghost (by ghost, you'll see the animation but 0 damage actually registers, and you can confirm this using your in game battle log). Yet you're advocating to use a hardcast Ruin 3 following the 2nd Akh Morn weave, meaning your final 2 GCDs would be R3 > R4. This means your final wyrmwave will ghost pretty much every time you try to do this.
All of this leads me to believe that you didn't even bother to play test your ideas, let alone do proper research on how to implement them
And based on our own rotation sim sheet, your opener actually performs worse than our actual openers by roughly 20,000 damage overall, and this is just personal damage comparisons without other party buffs factored into it (with ideal rotation timings, your opener would be even worse off). -
01-23-2020, 02:06 AMOxdarockThe reason why I say that the F1 and F3 combo happens in the same timeframe as F4 in the opener isn't because of the CD of the Fire spells, but rather the timing of Xeno, which is the same in both openers.Quote:
Originally Posted by PyurBlue
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01-23-2020, 02:50 AMOxdarockThank you for pointing out the mistake with the second Tri cast. Had a feeling that I’d make a typo of some such somewhere. What’s worse is that I put an R3 where the second Tri should have been after the first Enkindle Baha. ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa
Admittedly, I wasn’t 100% sure on the extra Ifrit Burning Strike due to the AI interaction with Devotion. Upon testing it once more, I’ve found that you do not gain an extra Ifrit attack, so that was a mistake on my part. I’ve fixed the portion that states this in the doc and as for the tables, because of this variable in Ifrit timings, I’d have to remove Burning Strike entirely, which would bring them closer by 80 potency, give or take.
That said, everything I said about Baha and Akh Morn is true. After fixing the delayed opener, putting the second Tri after the first Enkindle Baha (where it should have gone to begin with), the last two casts of the Baha phase are R4, and a swift R3. I’ve actually tested this opener at with a 2.43sec GCD and was able to fit them just fine. With even an even slower GCD, you’d probably just have to switch the order of the second Enkindle Baha and Fester in order for the second Akh Morn to fit within Devotion (though if you have rock bottom sps, whether or not you’d still fit it in is something even I’m not 100% sure of). I should also mention that, if you hold Aetherpact until the middle of the GCD cooldown, it won't be applied until at least 1.5secs later, right before Deathflare. You're only really able to get 6 casts off in Devotion regardless of which opener you use.
You’re correct in that you don’t “magically” gain DoT ticks in the opener and I actually had a difficult time figuring out how to word this. What I came to realize is that, in SMN’s case, the difference in DoT damage depends on how many DoTs tick via a Bio and Miasma refresh before a boss jumps, which is a very specific situation (which I’ve also added into the doc just now). So, assuming this isn’t the case, if you remove Tri damage from both tables (and the extra Burn in the delayed opener), you then get a difference of 47.9 potency, again, in favor of the delayed opener. -
01-23-2020, 06:51 AMxxPheNoMeNa
Testing a rotation at 2.43s isn't relevant when none of our BiS builds have that much spell speed to begin with. 2.5s and 2.48s are the primary BiS builds (and theoretical highest damage potential), if it's not even consistent on either of those 2 GCD tiers then there's no argument to begin with before we get to potency comparisons.
"if you hold Aetherpact until the middle of the GCD cooldown, it won't be applied until at least 1.5secs later"
This isn't how it works exactly. It really just boils down to where your pets "GCD" is, and how soon it can weave Devotion once it's commanded to. Devotion timings are never 100% consistent because of this, with REALLY good execution you can generally keep it contained within the window of 1 GCD worth of time, but you can't guarantee it will ALWAYS occur at the exact same place. This is also where your GCD build comes into play, because your GCD alignment will differ slightly compared to me testing this at 2.48 (and for me, that Devotion is casting nearly instantly with how you're proposing it).
"the difference in DoT damage depends on how many DoTs tick via a Bio and Miasma refresh before a boss jumps"
The only thing that matters when it comes to a situation like this, is whether you can avoid a hardcasted set of DoTs or not. The number of DoT ticks will always be the same, it's just where those ticks occur. You can then take it a step further and include the potential of gained Tri-Disaster casts, as they provide 300 potency up front now (by gained, I mean using a Tri-Disaster before down time, provided the down time is long enough that you'll gain the next cooldown in time for a boss to return). However you never clarified on either of these points.
"you then get a difference of 47.9 potency, again, in favor of the delayed opener"
From where exactly? It's already flawed that you shown 2 images of different length (you took my opener and reduced it down to 13 GCDs, yet what you created is 16 GCDs long). So are you attempting to compare a 13 GCD sequence to a 16 GCD sequence? Because according to the rotation sheet we use, all of our openers come out ahead in a 16 GCD sequence compared to yours (with me attempting to correct what you've edited, and even giving you the benefit of the doubt of 2x akh morns hitting Devotion with an actual BiS build). -
01-23-2020, 01:48 PMOxdarockThe reason I used a 2.4sec GCD in every opener (excluding BLM) is precisely because it’s not BiS. What I mean is, while it can be a simple matter of melding sps to reach a higher speed threshold, the same can’t be said for lower speed tiers. Depending on what gear you have available, the only way to reach lower speed tiers might be to either use gear with lower main stat values or (in my case) to strip your character naked with only the weapon left (which of course isn’t a realistic option). If the argument here is that an opener not built around 2.5secs and 2.48 BiS builds isn’t viable, then the counterargument is that an opener built around those builds isn’t viable for higher speed builds either. Mind you, I’m not saying the delayed openers don’t share this same issue. A higher or lower build might just be enough to push a GCD outside a raid window or push a buff out of the alignment. My goal was to find a middle ground to work from.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa
I completely agree on your point regarding Devotion timings, though you seem to have stumbled upon the goal in how I phrased it, since you mentioned that it comes out nearly instantly). It’s a lot easier to predict when Devotion will come out when the only other thing Ifrit is doing at the time is Burning Strike as opposed to that and an Egi Assault. What’s more, because the goal is to get 2 Akh Morns within Devotion, the timing is meant to ignore the R3 that comes right after Aether pact and instead catch the Deathflare (though again, whether you’re still able to fit 2 Akh Morns in Devotion at rock bottom sps, even when switching the order of the 2nd Akh Morn and Fester, is something I’m not 100% sure of).
We seemed to have reached something of an agreement regarding DoTs, though just worded a bit differently (and I guess poorly on my part). However, the part about the extra Tri cast fits into my statement regarding which opener to use depending on the fight: If the delayed opener causes you to miss the cast of an important oGCD or complete burst window before a boss jumps, then use the early opener. If the number of oGCD casts and buff duration is the same regardless, then use the delayed opener.
As for the potency difference statement, that’s just in regards to the tables I made which apply the maximum number of percentage based damage buffs. It’s much lower the less buffs there are (I even used a few party comp examples at the bottom of the doc. Going by this discussion, if you were to remove the extra 380 potency from the delayed opener in the first example, the difference ends up being 5.5 potency). As for using two pictures with the different number of GCDs, I simply copied exactly what was written from the guides that list the early openers. In order to make a fair comparison between the two, I had to add the subsequent rotation to the early openers to match the same timeframe as the delayed ones. If the matter of when an opener truly “ends” is the issue here, then just think of it instead as the “Early Rotation” and the “Delayed Rotation,” since there will come a point when both use up all their buffs and oGCDs and end up in a filler rotation. -
01-25-2020, 12:50 AMOxdarockI assume you mean the delayed SAM opener because both the Higa 1st and Midare 1st openers would be considered the “early openers” in this. ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
Regarding Shifu and Jinpu falling off before reapplication and royally screwing the entire rotation, that’s a pretty extreme example statement, especially since this particular instance would only happen a handful of times in a fight with full uptime (mainly due to the Tinc window). Not only that, but in the delayed opener given, the moment both buffs fall off is the moment they’re reapplied (you literally press Shifu as the buff falls offs). Even if Shifu falls off before it’s reapplied and the next CD lasts for .32secs (give or take depending on your sks), you’re telling me that’s enough to mess everything up later down the line and that there’s zero adjustments that can be made? As for the Jinpu matter, that’s literally the same as the Twin Snakes optimization that MNKs do, and since it’s a 40sec buff, it’s not nearly as constant since there’s almost no other time it should fall off in a full uptime scenario (outside of Tinc windows).
That said, I can’t particularly say too much more with matters involving drift (excluding the bit about Higa completely falling out of alignment with raid buffs since it’s used smack dab in the middle of all of them in the delayed alignment), as that is dependent of both one’s rotation and sks. However, given how flexible SAM is, I find it hard to believe that there’s nothing that can be done about this, nor can I believe that severe drift can be assumed to happen at a glance.
Lastly, I find the mention of the one GCD delay regarding the delayed opener from the other two as a bit contradictory since the same can be said in regards to Tsubame. What I mean is, it’s already well known that you’d use the Midare 1st opener over the Higa 1st if doing so would gain you an extra Tsubame (which again, is similar to the core idea around all of the delayed openers). The delayed SAM opener is essentially the third counterpart part in the series. If you won’t lose a Midare and/or Tsubame cast, then use it. If you will, then go for one of the other two. Hell, the Midare first opener can actually work pretty well with the delayed raid timings if you move some oGCDs around.
EDIT: One thing that I will admit is that the placement of Senei and Meikyo for the delayed opener should be swapped (double weaving Meikyo with Kaiten would also work, but ick, clipping). The reason is, with Meikyo being used after Tsubame, it's very likely to clash with Kaiten. Just took the time to switch it, so at the very least, thank you for giving me a reason to reevaluate that. :) -
01-27-2020, 02:18 AMxxPheNoMeNa
"then the counterargument is that an opener built around those builds isn’t viable for higher speed builds either"
But this does not matter when higher spell speed builds aren't BiS to begin with.
"What’s more, because the goal is to get 2 Akh Morns within Devotion"
Since you seem to be making a big deal about this, you do realize that we also made an opener that can accomplish this? It just has a much higher bar of execution, so it wasn't pushed for most players as the "standard", but it does exist and is still (mathematically speaking) the strongest opener currently available.
And I'll remind you again, that despite you claiming that your delayed opener comes out "ahead", our math shows it being behind. So I'm still not quite sure how you "compared" these openers. -
01-27-2020, 03:53 AMSpeckledBurdYou're arguing with someone who refuses to be corrected about this. If you look in their thread history you’ll see they have made 3-4 other threads just like this one where they theorycraft from fundamental misunderstandings on how the jobs and their actions work. People have tried to explain multiple times in these other threads with regard to multiple openers that have been made for every job that what's being proposed is less effective than a standard opener just as you’re doing now, but Oxdarock won't accept it. At best they’ll accept a single correction on something minor while ignoring how wrong they are about everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa
The best thing you can do is not engage them and let this thread fall off the front page so someone doesn't actually try and use their guide. While I understand what you’re trying to do, you’ll never break through to them. All you’re really doing is giving their misinformation more exposure. -
01-27-2020, 06:59 AMOxdarockWell, let's just hope that future BiS doesn't increase the sps. ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa
I'm curious about this other opener that you're referring to that gets two Akh Morns within Devotion since the one I came up with is pushing it as is. Contrary to what people might think, I haven't been back to the balance discord since I got banned, so I have no idea what's changed there. All I have to go on is what's available from a Google search.
As for my math, it's all there in the doc I linked. All the values I use, how I calculate them, the standard values I use for everything, extra info for particular classes, you name it. My goal was not to find out what the exact damage values would be with a particular gear set, be it BiS or otherwise. It was to show what the general potency would be for a given class' rotation (since more potency generally means more damage) and, more importantly, how it would affect other classes' overall potency between the early and delayed buff alignments.
So if your math shows which opener/rotation comes out ahead, that's fine. However, as I've been told several times, just saying so won't cut it for most people. Work needs to be shown, preferably where people can break it down and see for themselves. It also needs to match what you're trying to compare it with since, while having tools to figure out exact damage numbers based on gear sets is helpful, it's not particularly relevant to this particular situation since the potency of a class's rotation doesn't change regardless of what gear you have, whether it's BiS or otherwise. Only thing that changes is the timing based on sps.
And then, after you've figure out how it affects SMN, you'll also need to show how it affects all 16 other classes since the point I've been trying to make with delayed openers is that lining up raid buffs as uniformly as possible results in higher raid dps.