SMN changed to full trance + demi summons when

Just got firebird trance. The class keeps getting weirder and weirder
Keeping up Dots barely make sense, I am now just a trance swinger and I don't even have the phoenix summon yet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Siete

Just got firebird trance. The class keeps getting weirder and weirder
Keeping up Dots barely make sense, I am now just a trance swinger and I don't even have the phoenix summon yet

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Never

/endtopic

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Originally Posted by Razard

Never

/endtopic

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Jokes' on you, it already is.

Not if you want good dps.

They are really wierd, and out of order too.

The normal Deathflare is usually used in AoE on trash mobs and such. The Bahamut Trance/Demi is better on Single target because of the Wyrmwave + Ruin combo... so for Boss Mobs. The Phoenix trance that comes last is almost entirely AoE... or rather the best parts of it are... so Trash mobs and adds.

That would be ok EXCEPT... the normal encounter scheme in almost all instances short of 8 mans is...

Trash mobs... more Trash Mobs... then Boss Mobs...

But the Trances are out of order...

Deathflare (AoE)... Bahamut Demi + Wyrmwave (mostly single target)... Phoenix Trance (AoE multi target).. and you can't change the order you do them in.

you got more than enough aoe skills in between... titans aoe, ruda in general, hyper buffed bane in combination with Tri as well painflare for aether stacks. I remember the name... Silver... didn't u try to recommend people to push mp back in HW for more "out of trance ruin 3s?" - if I remember correctly you didn't understood SMN in HW... nor does your comment conclude that you understand SMN in ShB : /

Its actually the opposite Neela, the tactics I used to push for AoE damage in HW here were so nasty its likely why it got nerfed so bad in Stormblood because so many people started to use them.

I think you may have it confused with the fact I pushed people to use Ruin 3 outside of Trance as the later stages of HW due to gear, you had so much MP and all your other attacks were generally Aetherflow abilities that you never spent enough MP on anything else to ever use it.

So you could Ruin 3 without penalty even though it was mana costly... resulting in a large single target damage boost to the SMN the Devs hadn't accounted for. They hadn't intended it to be used outside of trance.

Also possibly why Ruin 3's damage got nerfed at the outset of Stormblood because other people probably figured that out too.

Don’t spread false news again - it was me who told you that smn use R3 out of Trance to optimise Dmg. But dw worry im done with discussions like that. And people who talk bout things they do not understand as well. ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

Don’t spread false news again - it was me who told you that smn use R3 out of Trance to optimise Dmg. But dw worry im done with discussions like that. And people who talk bout things they do not understand as well. ^^

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What? Didn't you JUST the post above say this to me...

Neela: Silver... didn't u try to recommend people to push mp back in HW for more "out of trance ruin 3s?" - if I remember correctly you didn't understood SMN in HW"

Silverquick: Ummm yeah that was me, and it may be what got it nerfed so bad in Stormblood

Neela: Don’t spread false news again - it was me who told you that smn use R3 out of Trance to optimise Dmg.

Silverquick: Huh?

"because other people probably figured that out too." - the fun part is you was one of the last guys who noticed the "how to" after several discussions and the reason why to use R3 out of trance by me. but u didn't get the theorycrafters idea cause u spread a build with stating mp "to outdps" balance builds lol... - now u play the "it was my founding" card - like back than. its just lovely to see that you are just as clueless about the cls as 2 years ago and still think you got some cls wisdom, which u actually still lack in. enough said - far well.

Lol!

I do find it hilarious though the response I evoke from board "nobility" and how they just try as hard as they can to spam me off the boards.
Back then I was pushing an AoE tactic that just drove them up a wall. It included 2 things... Blowing your Deathflare without spamming Ruin 3s (OH THE HORROR) and using Blizzard 2 by subbing BLM (OMG!!!).

Back then you could stack an ENORMOUS amount of DoTs as SMN because there was no auto upgrade to Bio/Miasma combo and each version Bio 1, Bio 2, Miasma, Miasma 2 all stacked.

So I said... when doing AoE to stack all of them which bumped the Damage per tick up to like 250 potency per tick. Then use Contagion from Garuda pet to extend the duration by 10 seconds... then Bane them out. Which was standard at the time... then I said move in with Blizzard II to spam it on top of your already ticking DoTs for another 50 potency per tick... all of this didn't even include Pet Damage.

The Board "nobility" went NUTS over that. They screamed NEVER NEVER NEVER USE Blizzard 2 on top of those its completely worthless!!! You SUCK as a SMN!!!!

Also I DARED tell everyone to then use Dreadwyrm and Deathflare without using Ruin 3s during Trance as the Finisher...
OH MY GOD, you'd have thought the world was ending... Lol!! I was a "horrible Summoner" who didn't understand the Job at ALL...

Well the Devs obviously didn't see it that way. Reality was this combo when combined with Painflares (which also got nerfed from 200 potency to 130 it is today) was pushing like 500 potency attacks plus the occasional 800 or so combination when you used a Deathflare on top of it.

This was unheard of in HW, no other job had any potency combination that could be pushed that high on a per tick plus burst damage basis. So anyone that used it would just wreck entire hordes of dungeon trash mobs because none of the SMN attacks at that time reduced the damage per target the way they do now.

And probably why all this got nerfed so badly. And why I was labeled a "terrible Summoner" who "didn't understand the job".

Lol what a joke.

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Originally Posted by Neela

"because other people probably figured that out too." - the fun part is you was one of the last guys who noticed the "how to" after several discussions and the reason why to use R3 out of trance by me. but u didn't get the theorycrafters idea cause u spread a build with stating mp "to outdps" balance builds lol... - now u play the "it was my founding" card - like back than. its just lovely to see that you are just as clueless about the cls as 2 years ago and still think you got some cls wisdom, which u actually still lack in. enough said - far well.

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Why are you coming for Silver about something from years ago that has nothing to do with this topic?....I used R3 outside of Trance during HW at times...it's not something difficult to figure out...no one "founded" it, as if it's some optimal rotation. More to the point Silver has said nothing about any of that in this thread. I think he has brought some interesting points to the table about SMN's current state which brings to light FF14's over reliance on simplistic and formulaic game play mechanics.

This have been a constant topic in the SMN community.

The thing is, SMN is on some sort of limbo right now. Despite having "pets" they are but a fraction of what a true pet class would be (micromanagement where?). The job spells still work in a clunky way without the OGCDs now. Demi summons interact in a convoluted way with the Ruin spells - The whole "shove the most spells you can in X timeframe" brings a lot of issues when you have to do this 2/3 of the time. Basically in short, SMN right now feels like... some sort of frankenstein of a job.

They def. need to take the job to one side of this spectrum: Either develop a pet system that works and stick with it, reverting the playstyle to what it was way before... Or just make a rework like the OP (and many other players) suggest. The way it is now is defnitely not a good place to be, in my point of view.

Neela, Silver, you're both pretty. stop fighting.

Anyway, in my opinion Trances have been the main gimmick since Stormblood instead of managing DoTs. I feel they're slowly shedding away from being a pet job with how they're focusing more on Demi summons and recently making Egi summons glorified instant GCDs. I really hope they move forward because it's true that Summoner design-wise is a mess with a lot of concepts that just do not blend together.

What Summoner has as mechanics:
Aetherflow (although neutered since Shadowbringers)
Egi/Egi Assault
DoTs (like Aetherflow, neutered since Stormblood)
Dreadwyrm Trance
Demi Summons

That's a lot of things to work with. Personally I don't have problems actually playing it currently in 5.1 but things like Dreadwyrm Trance and Demi-Bahamut not being merged and Egi summons not being compatible with Demi summons does bug me. I'm also still upset about what they did to Aetherflow. It was pretty much what tied most of Summoner's mechanics together and gave it a more naturally progressing rotation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

They are really wierd, and out of order too.

The normal Deathflare is usually used in AoE on trash mobs and such. The Bahamut Trance/Demi is better on Single target because of the Wyrmwave + Ruin combo... so for Boss Mobs. The Phoenix trance that comes last is almost entirely AoE... or rather the best parts of it are... so Trash mobs and adds.

That would be ok EXCEPT... the normal encounter scheme in almost all instances short of 8 mans is...

Trash mobs... more Trash Mobs... then Boss Mobs...

But the Trances are out of order...

Deathflare (AoE)... Bahamut Demi + Wyrmwave (mostly single target)... Phoenix Trance (AoE multi target).. and you can't change the order you do them in.

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It might SEEM out of order, but it's still better DPS to pull out Bahamut on trash than to just use Garuda the whole time. If you get two Akh Morn casts off Bahamut while he's out you're doing more potency (1,300 potency on the target enemy, 650 on every other enemy total) than you are from the 10 casts of Wind Blade (300 potency total) that Garuda would do. Additionally you can still get wyrmwave attacks off casting Outburst.

I find in most dungeons at level 80, I can enkindle Bahamut on the first pack pulls, use Firebird Trance on the second pack, and be ready to go to summon Bahamut again for the boss by the time that starts.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

It might SEEM out of order, but it's still better DPS to pull out Bahamut on trash than to just use Garuda the whole time.

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I'm not disputing that, and I agree with you.

Its just that often I will find myself at the last stage of mobs before a Boss Mob going... Hmm Bahamut Demi is up in my Trance Order, do I blow it now? Or... save it as an opener on the Boss Mob. And I can't change the order of the trancing.

So it ends up out of the normal flow of the instance. That's my actual point.

friendly reminder that aetherflow was a better clock than trance could ever be. Dont assume that everyone who asks stuff knows what he is talking about . Soo yes hopefully trance and demi only summoner will never come to pass

I want dreadwyrm trance gone more than anything, it was a bandaid fix for SMNs poor performance in ARR but it went so far away from the pet class identity putting so much focus on the caster that I just dropped SMN.

Firebird trance is fine, because it’s only really trance in name, you’re actually summoning a demi primal and your moves are changed to Phoenix attacks.

I’d like to see dreadwyrm trance just be combined with summon demi-bahamut and made to work more like firebird trance but with bahamut. Have us just cycle between firebird and dreadwyrm using our egi assaults between summons.

I don’t mind the Ruins/DoTs and fester/painflare to be honest, it’s a little bit of filler when you’ve got nothing better to do and it feels a lot more like that in shadowbringers, taking a back seat to egi assaults and trance/demi summon.

To me SMN is going in the right direction but it still has some of the stewpot of ideas they’ve been trying in the past dripping off of it.

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I’d like to see dreadwyrm trance just be combined with summon demi-bahamut and made to work more like firebird trance but with bahamut.

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People ask for this all the time and it's really worrying because, sadly, there's a pretty good chance SE's going to do it down the line, maybe in 6.0. It would be really unfortunate because a change like that would be an unconditional nerf to the job and make it feel even more terrible to play. Getting aetherflow replaced by a worse version of itself (energy drain) was bad enough, this would just complete the dismantling of everything that made the job good.

The entire point of DWT and summon bahamut being separate is that you get the option to use both parts separately if you need to. If the boss spawns now, at 0:00 seconds, but a bunch of adds only appear later on at 0:40 seconds, you're able to do things like use DWT at 0:00 to start the cooldown, but only use bahamut 40 seconds later when you really need it. This doesn't change the overall structure of your rotation, as FBT is still coming off cooldown at 1:00, you just get the option to summon bahamut wherever you like within that 1 minute, whether you frontload or backload it is up to you.

If anything, FBT+summon phoenix being a single button is the problem with the job, because you lose the ability to do things like the above. There is literally no advantage to combining the two buttons, all it does is remove options. If you want to pretend they're combined now there's nothing stopping you from hitting both buttons back-to-back. All it'll do is make life easier for people who have trouble with their hotbars or something - but everyone else will suffer.

Fun fact, in the latest ultimate fight, there are at least 2-3 situations where leveraging the ability to summon bahamut separately from DWT results in a massive dps gain. During the tank lb3 transition going into the final phase, it so happens that DWT is close to coming off cooldown. If you press DWT before you get stunned, you'll waste the deathflare but gain the ability to begin the final phase with summon bahamut. And because the cutscene is so long, DWT/FBT is back off cooldown by the time it ends too, which means after bahamut ends you can immediately press FBT again and follow it up with phoenix. You basically get 40 seconds straight of demi summons at the start of the last phase.

Getting an extra demi summon, up to 2000 extra potency on the only phase where dps matters is a pretty big deal, and this is only possible because DWT and summon bahamut are separate. If you tried this with FBT, you'd just summon phoenix at the same time and watch helplessly as it does nothing during the cutscene.

Sometimes a visual example is best, so here's that exact moment from my last reclear.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/523150159?t=00h10m30s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myon88

People ask for this all the time and it's really worrying because, sadly, there's a pretty good chance SE's going to do it down the line, maybe in 6.0. It would be really unfortunate because a change like that would be an unconditional nerf to the job and make it feel even more terrible to play. Getting aetherflow replaced by a worse version of itself (energy drain) was bad enough, this would just complete the dismantling of everything that made the job good.

The entire point of DWT and summon bahamut being separate is that you get the option to use both parts separately if you need to. If the boss spawns now, at 0:00 seconds, but a bunch of adds only appear later on at 0:40 seconds, you're able to do things like use DWT at 0:00 to start the cooldown, but only use bahamut 40 seconds later when you really need it. This doesn't change the overall structure of your rotation, as FBT is still coming off cooldown at 1:00, you just get the option to summon bahamut wherever you like within that 1 minute, whether you frontload or backload it is up to you.

If anything, FBT+summon phoenix being a single button is the problem with the job, because you lose the ability to do things like the above. There is literally no advantage to combining the two buttons, all it does is remove options. If you want to pretend they're combined now there's nothing stopping you from hitting both buttons back-to-back. All it'll do is make life easier for people who have trouble with their hotbars or something - but everyone else will suffer.

Fun fact, in the latest ultimate fight, there are at least 2-3 situations where leveraging the ability to summon bahamut separately from DWT results in a massive dps gain. During the tank lb3 transition going into the final phase, it so happens that DWT is close to coming off cooldown. If you press DWT before you get stunned, you'll waste the deathflare but gain the ability to begin the final phase with summon bahamut. And because the cutscene is so long, DWT/FBT is back off cooldown by the time it ends too, which means after bahamut ends you can immediately press FBT again and follow it up with phoenix. You basically get 40 seconds straight of demi summons at the start of the last phase.

Getting an extra demi summon, up to 2000 extra potency on the only phase where dps matters is a pretty big deal, and this is only possible because DWT and summon bahamut are separate. If you tried this with FBT, you'd just summon phoenix at the same time and watch helplessly as it does nothing during the cutscene.

Sometimes a visual example is best, so here's that exact moment from my last reclear.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/523150159?t=00h10m30s

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The change would likely come with other changes, like recast reductions. I’m thinking more along the lines of pvp SMN rotation where the trances(or demi Summons replacing trances) are 30 seconds apart and you’d just alternate between them using egi assaults, energy drain and fester in the 30 seconds downtime between each one, we’d likely be able to keep full uptime on tri-disaster that way too which I’d be ok with cause again, DoTs shouldn’t be a focus on SMN. Or maybe we’ll get a third demi primal in 6.0 and they’ll combine Bahamut into DWT and that third demi primal would essentially take DWT’s spot in the rotation. Might be a nerf to some optimised ultimate rotation but I’m sure that there would be new ways to optimise the rotation around the demi summons instead and again, it places the focus on the pet which is good, trances put too much focus on the caster which shouldn’t be the case for a pet job.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

The change would likely come with other changes

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You could lower the recast to like 30s so that even with downtime, chances are you're close to your next summon anyway. The thing is though you can't have it all, shorter cooldowns will inherently be weaker because it's the same amount of damage being spread around more demis or what have you. Take PvP SMN, now that you mention it. Burst damage wins fights in the feast, and it has pathetic burst compared to PvP BLM due to its design. You have a 2000p deathflare and average phoenix gcds attached to DWT and FBT. What does BLM have? 3200p xenoglossy that is most importantly a 'charge' that you can hold onto making it way more flexible.

Anytime, anywhere, PvP BLM can pick off weakened targets with that xenoglossy in their pocket. You don't need to pray that DWT coming off cooldown aligns with a moment of opportunity. Likewise in PvE with good planning you can go into perfect alex with an extra bahamut in your pocket and smash the enrage. This is why having ammo or charge based burst that you have control over will always beat passive damage windows.

SMN damage output right now is like a really tall sine wave that peaks every time you summon bahamut or phoenix. Having the ability to move your damage around to put more 'peaks' together where they count gives the job depth, which is something sorely lacking in the game right now. At its peak, when we had DWT and aetherflow, it felt like you were loading a revolver with bullets every time you reloaded your cooldowns. You could fire some now, hold on to the rest for later, it was up to you. In contrast, trances with forced summons attached feel like holding up one of those garden sprinklers that just spin around automatically. You'd better hope it's pointing at your target when you need it to. Numbers aside, having no control over the tempo of your damage output is just no fun.

All this isn't some kinda ultimate-only nerdy elitist concern either too. The ability to use your cooldowns separately is even more important in overworld content or places like potd, where fights are nothing but short encounters split up by downtime. Or what about dungeons, what happens if FBT comes off cooldown right as you kill a group of trash? Now you're facing two bad options, press it on cooldown and totally waste it (obviously not), or be forced to hold it for the 10-15 seconds it takes to run down the hallway to the next group. Both feel really bad, if it were DWT, you could press it to finish off the mobs with deathflare, and then hold on to that bahamut until the next encounter begins. This is a big reason why summoner feels like garbage in dungeons this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

You could lower the recast to like 30s so that even with downtime, chances are you're close to your next summon anyway. The thing is though you can't have it all, shorter cooldowns will inherently be weaker because it's the same amount of damage being spread around more demis or what have you. Take PvP SMN, now that you mention it. Burst damage wins fights in the feast, and it has pathetic burst compared to PvP BLM due to its design. You have a 2000p deathflare and average phoenix gcds attached to DWT and FBT. What does BLM have? 3200p xenoglossy that is most importantly a 'charge' that you can hold onto making it way more flexible.

Anytime, anywhere, PvP BLM can pick off weakened targets with that xenoglossy in their pocket. You don't need to pray that DWT coming off cooldown aligns with a moment of opportunity. Likewise in PvE with good planning you can go into perfect alex with an extra bahamut in your pocket and smash the enrage. This is why having ammo or charge based burst that you have control over will always beat passive damage windows.

SMN damage output right now is like a really tall sine wave that peaks every time you summon bahamut or phoenix. Having the ability to move your damage around to put more 'peaks' together where they count gives the job depth, which is something sorely lacking in the game right now. At its peak, when we had DWT and aetherflow, it felt like you were loading a revolver with bullets every time you reloaded your cooldowns. You could fire some now, hold on to the rest for later, it was up to you. In contrast, trances with forced summons attached feel like holding up one of those garden sprinklers that just spin around automatically. You'd better hope it's pointing at your target when you need it to. Numbers aside, having no control over the tempo of your damage output is just no fun.

All this isn't some kinda ultimate-only nerdy elitist concern either too. The ability to use your cooldowns separately is even more important in overworld content or places like potd, where fights are nothing but short encounters split up by downtime. Or what about dungeons, what happens if FBT comes off cooldown right as you kill a group of trash? Now you're facing two bad options, press it on cooldown and totally waste it (obviously not), or be forced to hold it for the 10-15 seconds it takes to run down the hallway to the next group. Both feel really bad, if it were DWT, you could press it to finish off the mobs with deathflare, and then hold on to that bahamut until the next encounter begins. This is a big reason why summoner feels like garbage in dungeons this expansion.

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This is more a problem with the design of the game as a whole than SMN, pretty much everyone has to decide wether to sit on resources or waste them on a dying pack. When a RDM hits 80/80 do they moulinet the almost dead mobs? Overcap mana? Lose dps using reprise to keep their mana down? Does a MCH use a hypercharge to use 2 auto crossbows throwing 3 down the drain as they run to the next fight?

Personally I’d like to see more duration based moves changed to a charge system more like HW ammo or aetherflow, when a MCH uses hypercharge they get 5 heat canisters to spend on heat blast or auto crossbow (maybe in MCHs case have some clause that using any other action cancels remaining charges). SMN demi summons could remain for a certain number of actions rather than a duration so summoning them is never wasted, maybe have the gauge instead of tic down with duration have it so the attacks consume gauge and each action has a specific cost. This would also alleviate ping issues like trying to use that last Brand of purgatory but Phoenix leaves the field and you miss it and end up using outburst on a single target

Well, summoner did not face this dilemma in Stormblood and earlier due to the self-casted nature of aetherflow. It didn't matter if there were targets around or you were in combat or not, as you had the freedom to use aetherflow and then leisurely look for targets in the next 1 minute. Likewise, DWT and bahamut worked the same way they do now. This was actually one of the big perks of the job that it was able to exploit in fights like ucob/uwu with a lot of downtime, and the loss of it is one of the bigger tragedies to befall the job this expansion.

Machinist I feel actually got a much better deal than we (and most jobs really) did in this regard. Overheat and their robot cost 50 gauge units, but their gauge goes up to 100. This is a critical difference because that 'overflow buffer' is effectively your protection against downtime. This removes a lot of stress and feelsbad moments because you're not pressured to use these abilities exactly on cooldown, you can safely overcap without being punished.

Maybe you're at 50 heat but you know the boss is going to disappear soon, or the fight is ending like in your example. If this were firebird trance coming off cooldown there, you'd just have to settle for holding it with no way to be compensated for the lost time. On MCH, you can continue building gauge to 70 or whatever, hypercharge later on and pay 50 units to go back down to 20. Now if their gauge was capped at 50 it would be a different story - that would be a bad situation as you say, and that's exactly what's wrong with summoner. Your own resource system shouldn't be able to checkmate you in a lose/lose situation.

I do agree more skills shifted to a charge system would be a boon for job design overall. Charges, like machinist gauges having room for overflow, are buffers against having to use things on cooldown as they let you 'save' them up instead. To their credit, SE is starting to recognize the importance of building flexibility like this into core job toolkits, and charges are one of their solutions to that. It's just a shame they didn't apply it to the right skills on SMN. With black mages, xenoglossy is an excellent candidate for having charges due to the way it interacts with their rotation. In contrast, egi assault is nowhere near as important for summoners, and having charges on energy drain and trances would've been far more useful. In fact, if DWT/FBT interacted with the charge system, I think I would have no objections to merging DWT and summon bahamut as the key issue with the merger - the loss of flexibility - would be resolved.

The DoT + fester spam phase always feel weird/awkwardly placed, and is something I haven't been able to optimise properly in my short time playing the job. Since you can move between demis & trances with very little delay, both the DoTs and the pet abilities just feel like thumb twiddling.