Leveling and 50/60/70/80 Roulettes should be reorganized + Alliance Roulette concerns

Sargatanas Novice Network actually had an interesting discussion on the roulettes a few nights ago, so I'm taking down the notes in the form of a suggestion thread for posterity's sake. That, and it had legitimately good suggestions that would contribute greatly towards future-proofing the game in the long term.

Looking at the roulettes as of late and how the players behave around them, some long-term problems are starting to come to light. Most notably the Leveling Roulette, the 50/60/70/eventual 80 Roulette, and the Alliance Roulette. However, the Alliance Roulette has a very obvious problem that's separate from the two dungeon roulettes, so that will be addressed last.

To recap, here's a list of available dungeons in the two dungeon roulettes.

Leveling Roulette:
(ARR)
- Satasha (Lv. 15)
- Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Lv. 16)
- Copperbell Mines (Lv. 17)
- Halitali (Lv. 20)
- The Bowl of Embers (Lv. 20)
- The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak (Lv. 24)
- Haukke Manor (Lv. 28)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Lv. 32)
- The Navel (Lv. 34)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Lv. 35)
- Cutter's Cry (Lv. 38)
- The Stone Vigil (Lv. 41)
- Dzemael Darkhold (Lv. 44)
- The Howling Eye (Lv. 44)
- The Aurum Vale (Lv. 47)
(Heavensward)
- The Dusk Vigil (Lv. 51)
- Sohm Al (Lv. 53)
- The Aery (Lv. 55)
- The Vault (Lv. 57)
- The Great Gubal Library (Lv. 59)
(Stormblood)
- The Sirensong Sea (Lv. 61)
- Shishui of the Violet Tides (Lv. 63)
- Bardam's Mettle (Lv. 65)
- Doma Castle (Lv. 67)
- Castrum Abania (Lv. 69)
(Shadowbringers)
- Holminster Switch (Lv. 71)
- Dohn Mheg (Lv. 73)
- The Qitana Ravel (Lv. 75)
- Malikah's Well (Lv. 77)
- Mt. Gulg (Lv. 79)

50/60/70/eventual 80 Roulette:
(Lv. 50)
- The Wanderer's Palace
- Amdapor Keep
- Pharos Sirius
- Copperbell Mines (Hard)
- Haukke Manor (Hard)
- The Lost City of Amdapor
- Halitali (Hard)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Hard)
- Hullbreaker Isle
- The Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard)
- The Stone Vigil (Hard)
- Snowcloak
- Satasha (Hard)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Hard)
- The Keeper of the Lake
- The Wanderer's Palace (Hard)
- Amdapor Keep (Hard)
(Level 60)
- The Aetherochemical Research Facility
- Neverreap
- The Fractal Continuum
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum
- Pharos Sirius (Hard)
- The Antitower
- The Lost City of Amdapor (Hard)
- Sohr Khai
- Hullbreaker Isle (Hard)
- Xelphatol
- The Great Gubal Library (Hard)
- Baelsar's Wall
- Sohm Al (Hard)
(Level 70)
- Ala Mhigo
- Kugane Castle
- The Temple of the Fist
- The Drowned City of Skalla
- Hells' Lid
- The Fractal Continuum (Hard)
- The Swallow's Compass
- The Burn
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard)
- The Ghimlyt Dark
(Level 80)
- Amaurot
- The Twinning
- Akadaemia Anyder

Notice something? The list of 50/60/70 dungeons (currently 40, will soon be 43) is far larger than the list of Leveling dungeons (27, 30 if you count the three ARR normal mode trials). Yet the roulette for the former tends to have far longer queue times than that of the latter, since the latter in the eyes of the community is currently far more rewarding than the former. This has led to certain points in player progression where queue times for story-required dungeons in the 50/60/70 category end up absurdly long, especially for DPS players. (Plus 'Duty Roulette: 50/60/70 Dungeons currently clips in the duty finder screen. If that isn't an argument towards re-organizing it to this development team, I don't know what is.)

To address that problem, I propose that we re-categorize Leveling and 50/60/70/80 Roulette into Leveling Roulette: Story Dungeons and Leveling Roulette: Optional Dungeons. The reward for both roulettes should be equalized as well, having both roulettes award the same EXP/Poetics tome rewards as current Leveling Roulette (if below max level) and the same Goetia/etc. tome rewards as current 50/60/70 Roulette (if at max level).

This would re-shuffle the roulettes into the following dungeons.

Leveling Roulette: Story Dungeons
- Satasha (Lv. 15)
- Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Lv. 16)
- Copperbell Mines (Lv. 17)
- The Bowl of Embers (Lv. 20)
- The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak (Lv. 24)
- Haukke Manor (Lv. 28)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Lv. 32)
- The Navel (Lv. 34)
- The Stone Vigil (Lv. 41)
- The Howling Eye (Lv. 44)
- Snowcloak (Lv. 50)
- The Keeper of the Lake (Lv. 50)
- Sohm Al (Lv. 53)
- The Aery (Lv. 55)
- The Vault (Lv. 57)
- The Great Gubal Library (Lv. 59)
- The Aetherochemical Research Facility (Lv. 60)
- The Antitower (Lv. 60)
- Sohr Khai (Lv. 60)
- Xelphatol (Lv. 60)
- Baelsar's Wall (Lv. 60)
- The Sirensong Sea (Lv. 61)
- Bardam's Mettle (Lv. 65)
- Doma Castle (Lv. 67)
- Castrum Abania (Lv. 69)
- Ala Mhigo (Lv. 70)
- The Drowned City of Skalla (Lv. 70)
- Hells' Lid (Lv. 70)
- The Swallow's Compass (Lv. 70)
- The Burn (Lv. 70)
- The Ghimlyt Dark (Lv. 70)
- Holminster Switch (Lv. 71)
- Dohn Mheg (Lv. 73)
- The Qitana Ravel (Lv. 75)
- Malikah's Well (Lv. 77)
- Mt. Gulg (Lv. 79)
- Amaurot (Lv. 80)
(33 dungeons, up from Leveling Roulette's 27. 34 if you include Amaurot, 37 if you include the three normal mode trials. Hell's Lid and Swallow's Compass are categorized as story dungeons because they are both required to progress further in the Four Lords trial series, even if they are not part of the MSQ themselves.)

Leveling Roulette: Optional Dungeons
- Halitali (Lv. 20)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Lv. 35)
- Cutter's Cry (Lv. 38)
- Dzemael Darkhold (Lv. 44)
- The Aurum Vale (Lv. 47)
- The Wanderer's Palace (Lv. 50)
- Amdapor Keep (Lv. 50)
- Pharos Sirius (Lv. 50)
- Copperbell Mines (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Haukke Manor (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Lost City of Amdapor (Lv. 50)
- Halitali (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Hullbreaker Isle (Lv. 50)
- The Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Stone Vigil (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Satasha (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Wanderer's Palace (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Amdapor Keep (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Dusk Vigil (Lv. 51)
- Neverreap (Lv. 60)
- The Fractal Continuum (Lv. 60)
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Lv. 60)
- Pharos Sirius (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- The Lost City of Amdapor (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- Hullbreaker Isle (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- The Great Gubal Library (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- Sohm Al (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- Shishui of the Violet Tides (Lv. 63)
- Kugane Castle (Lv. 70)
- The Temple of the Fist (Lv. 70)
- The Fractal Continuum (Hard) (Lv. 70)
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard) (Lv. 70)
- The Twinning (Lv. 80)
- Akadaemia Anyder (Lv. 80)
(34 dungeons, down from 50/60/70 Roulette's 40. 36 if you include Twinning and Akadaemia.)

As an additional suggestion, the way roulettes determine which dungeon you get should be redone as well, to be weighted towards each players' current job level.

People don't like it when a party full of level 60+ players somehow ends up being dropped into Satasha. The game has a problem with many people reaching endgame without really knowing how to use some of their skills effectively. The daily method of leveling having a high chance of dropping you into a lower level dungeon where you can't practice using your new skills doesn't help the situation either.

Some examples of this proposed change...

The roulette selects 4 players. Their current job levels are as follows:
- Lv. 76 Warrior
- Lv. 68 Astrologian
- Lv. 71 Dragoon
- Lv. 60 Summoner

All four queued into 'Story Dungeon Roulette'. Since the Summoner is the lowest level, the proposed weighting system means that the roulette will only consider all dungeons up to 10 levels below the lowest level party member, and no lower than that. In this example, the Summoner is the lowest level party member at 60.

That means the group will get one of the following dungeons:
- Snowcloak
- The Keeper of the Lake
- Sohm Al
- The Aery
- The Vault
- The Great Gubal Library
- The Aetherochemical Research Facility
- The Antitower
- Sohr Khai
- Xelphatol
- Baelsar's Wall

If the Summoner had been Level 61 instead, Sirensong Sea would be added, and Snowcloak and Keeper of the Lake would be removed from consideration. If the Summoner had been higher level than the Astrologian, Sirensong Sea, Bardam's Mettle, and Doma castle would be added, but everything prior to the Great Gubal Library would be removed.

However, if one of the four players in the roulette manually queued for a specific dungeon, that player will override the weighting system with their choice of dungeon. In the event that the player queued for multiple dungeons at once, and assuming the remaining three players' job levels are higher than the dungeons that the first player queued for, the game would then prioritize the highest level dungeon(s) chosen.

If you don't want the roulette to pick dungeons based on your actual job level, there would be a new setting in the Duty Finder options to turn that off.

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Alliance Roulette... Where do I even begin?

The original purpose of Alliance Roulette was to revitalize the older 24-man raid series. Prior to the Roulette being introduced, the Crystal Tower raid series especially would frequently see queue times of 1-2+ hours.

Now, because of people lowering their item level to force the roulette to choose the lower level raids for the roulette, we now have the exact opposite problem: The roulette frequently chooses the level 50 Crystal Tower raid series above all others. Orbonne Monastery, the most recent Alliance raid, now sees queue times upwards of 2+ hours.

Get rid of item level weighting for the Alliance Roulette. The roulette should not be manipulated in this way. Orbonne may be harder than the rest, but it wouldn't be the insurmountable task the community thinks it is if experienced players actually started doing it again, instead of it being a raid that is now more or less limited to new players who missed the train before.

(If it's really needed, Orbonne could use a nerf too, and/or rewards could be scaled up much higher for the Void Ark and Ivalice raid series.)

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

The reward for both roulettes should be equalized as well, having both roulettes award the same EXP/Poetics tome rewards as current Leveling Roulette (if below max level) and the same Goetia/etc. tome rewards as current 50/60/70 Roulette (if at max level).

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This is really the only fix needed. I don't see how splitting the current 50/60/70 into two roulettes helps anything. Also, I'm a little baffled why 50/60/70 doesn't award ANY weekly-capped tomes.



For ally raids, I think the minimum iLevel should be set to whatever the minimum iLevel of the highest raid you can enter is. If you're Lv70+, then it's set to Orbonne's iLv, if you're 60+ then it's set to Dun Scaith's iLv, etc.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

This is really the only fix needed. I don't see how splitting the current 50/60/70 into two roulettes helps anything. Also, I'm a little baffled when 50/60/70 doesn't award ANY weekly-capped tomes.

For ally raids, I think the minimum iLevel should be set to whatever the minimum iLevel of the highest raid you can enter is. If you're Lv70+, then it's set to Orbonne's iLv, if you're 60+ then it's set to Dun Scaith's iLv, etc.

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For the latter, that works too. Expert Roulette currently works the same way, after all.

For the former, it's more about equalizing the amount of dungeons available to each roulette. If we don't do the step of reshuffling the dungeons across both roulettes but equalize both, some people will just not bother doing Leveling Roulette at all (and switching to exclusively doing 50/60/70/80 roulette) due to a big chunk of the dungeons consisting of pre-Lv. 50 ARR dungeons. Then we have the problem of progression being slowed for new players. With the roulettes being re-categorized, the story roulette actually contains more higher level content, while the optional roulette has more mid-game/expansion level cap content.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

For the latter, that works too. Expert Roulette currently works the same way, after all.

For the former, it's more about equalizing the amount of dungeons available to each roulette. If we don't do the step of reshuffling the dungeons across both roulettes but equalize both, some people will just not bother doing Leveling Roulette at all (and switching to exclusively doing 50/60/70/80 roulette) due to a big chunk of the dungeons consisting of pre-Lv. 50 ARR dungeons. Then we have the problem of progression being slowed for new players. With the roulettes being re-categorized, the story roulette actually contains more higher level content, while the optional roulette has more mid-game/expansion level cap content.

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Sometimes I wonder if they just can't figure out how to have a flexible iLevel for roulettes (and is probably why they haven't put an iLevel on leveling dungeons). Expert works that way in theory, but in reality it only ever changes when a patch changes it, not as a reaction to the player.

As for the rest, yeah that's a fair point.

Actually, putting an ilvl restriction on Alliance Roulette wouldn't work upon further thought, because part of Alliance Roulette's purpose is to also act as an additional way to level for those who aren't level capped. An ilvl restriction basically means that it'd only really exist for the tomes for level capped players. And yeah, Expert Roulette's the only one with an ilvl restriction because every dungeon in Expert Roulette is level capped content by default.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Alliance Roulette... Where do I even begin?

The original purpose of Alliance Roulette was to revitalize the older 24-man raid series. Prior to the Roulette being introduced, the Crystal Tower raid series especially would frequently see queue times of 1-2+ hours.

Now, because of people lowering their item level to force the roulette to choose the lower level raids for the roulette, we now have the exact opposite problem: The roulette frequently chooses the level 50 Crystal Tower raid series above all others. Orbonne Monastery, the most recent Alliance raid, now sees queue times upwards of 2+ hours.

Get rid of item level weighting for the Alliance Roulette. The roulette should not be manipulated in this way. Orbonne may be harder than the rest, but it wouldn't be the insurmountable task the community thinks it is if experienced players actually started doing it again, instead of it being a raid that is now more or less limited to new players who missed the train before.

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This may be slightly unrelated but I think the ability to earn glam from these old raids is too...punishing. In this environment where everyone drops their item level to do the level 50 raids, I've done Labyrinth of the Ancients a dozen of times a month, yet I still don't have the full Fuma gear set for my Ninja. Because I'm trying for this set, I always queuing as the same class and repeating this dungeon to the point of tedium. These old raids provide no useful gear anymore so the only reason we run it is for glam and tomes. I really wish the Alliance roulette rewarded raid tokens that allowed the gear sets to be redeemed eventually one at a time, perhaps with tokens so we can finally complete the gears sets eventually. Because as is, I feel like I'm wasting my time when I don't get a level 50 raid. I like the Ivalice armor sets but the raid pacing is slow and the loot drop RNG / greed rolling makes getting the gear a nightmare.

If I had a more reasonable method of getting Ivalice glam, I would be more encouraged to not manipulate my item levels to get the faster raids which have the gear I want. Sure someone might suggest to me to not use the Alliance Roulette to get my glam but those tomes are the only thing actually progressing my character.

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Originally Posted by Edax

This may be slightly unrelated but I think the ability to earn glam from these old raids is too...punishing. In this environment where everyone drops their item level to do the level 50 raids, I've done Labyrinth of the Ancients a dozen of times a month, yet I still don't have the full Fuma gear set for my Ninja. Because I'm trying for this set, I always queuing as the same class and repeating this dungeon to the point of tedium. These old raids provide no useful gear anymore so the only reason we run it is for glam and tokens. I really wish the Alliance roulette rewarded raid tokens that allowed the gear sets to be redeemed eventually one at a time, perhaps with tokens so we can finally complete the gears sets eventually. Because as is, I feel like I'm wasting my time when I don't get a level 50 raid. I like the Ivalice armor sets but the raid pacing is slow and the loot drop RNG / greed rolling makes getting the gear a nightmare.

If I had a more reasonable method of getting Ivalice glam, I would be more encouraged to not manipulate my item levels to get the faster raids which have the gear I want. Sure someone might suggest to me to not use the Alliance Roulette to get my glam but those tomes are the only thing actually progressing my character.

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That's true. The devs should let us exchange the Alliance raid tokens for specific gear pieces for glam purposes too. Make currency for the crystal tower raid series for that purpose too, while we're at it.

(And also overhaul the currency tab to include the Alliance raid tokens, at that. I have 38 Dun Scaith shillings, and I'm not tossing them out, period.)

Ok I am just going to address the alliance roulette.

I think a lot of people who limit their ilvl do so not because they don't want want to run the content. They do it because they don't want to invest their time without receiving a reward.

I am not a fan of 24 man content. The reason being that they mostly fall into one of two categories.

Category one is exemplified by the crystal tower. Its boring. I can sign up, follow the group. just hit my basic combo rotation and watch an anime on another screen while I wait to get my reward.

Category two is exemplified by orbonne. The content is engaging, and commands my attention. Nothing wrong with its difficulty level. BUT I have only 1/24th control over whether I get a reward in this content. I need the people who signed up hoping for a category one experience to stick around, learn the mechanics and not vote abandon every time cid wipes them.

So how do we fix this? We need to divorce the category one raids from the category two raids. The problem with alliance roulette is that people who are only interested in the category one experience end up in category two. I would far rather wait longer for an enjoyable raid with people who want to do it too, then to wait for a duty to pop that will ultimately end in a vote abandon because half those in it dont want to be there.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am blaming people who would like to just the crystal tower over and over. Your not my people. I don't understand you. But I respect your right to play what you enjoy and I really don't want to hold you hostage in something you do not.

If there were two alliance roullets, or maybe one for each raid series, I think a lot of people who lower their ilvl currently would run orbonne. I know some people do it to avoid the content itself. But I am pretty sure a good number are doing it to avoid dumping an hour of their life into something with no reward due to vote abandon. Fix that and I think they will sign up... probably... am I being too hopeful hear?

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Originally Posted by ctcc42

So how do we fix this? We need to divorce the category one raids from the category two raids. The problem with alliance roulette is that people who are only interested in the category one experience end up in category two. I would far rather wait longer for an enjoyable raid with people who want to do it too, then to wait for a duty to pop that will ultimately end in a vote abandon because half those in it dont want to be there.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am blaming people who would like to just the crystal tower over and over. Your not my people. I don't understand you. But I respect your right to play what you enjoy and I really don't want to hold you hostage in something you do not.

If there were two alliance roullets, or maybe one for each raid series, I think a lot of people who lower their ilvl currently would run orbonne. I know some people do it to avoid the content itself. But I am pretty sure a good number are doing it to avoid dumping an hour of their life into something with no reward due to vote abandon. Fix that and I think they will sign up... probably... am I being too hopeful hear?

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I don't think they would. The people in question want the reward for the least effort possible, and CT you can watch TV and still get the reward because it's so trivialized. Part of that is that Labyrinth item level syncs at something like double the level the dungeon was tuned for. Orbonne syncs much closer to it's intended level and that makes it much less forgiving. You could help it now by raising the sync level on Orbonne so it gets easier with 80 gear in ShB. Or you could make CT harder by syncing it down to 70 and making people actually do mechanics.

The problem now is that I wasn't around when Orbonne was current, so I want to get it done. The queue is appalling, and eliminating that problem is the entire reason Alliance Roulette was created. It's currently not fulfilling it's intended function due to all the people exploiting it to get CT. Meanwhile, CT is so mind numbingly boring that I don't even want to queue for the roulette at all anymore. Mixing it up more would help a lot.

They need to put an ilvl requirement on it, or not have the raids in the roulette that aren't current content (so the one that comes out in 5.1) care about ilvl and put people in no matter what so this problem ends. People will learn how to do Orbonne again if it comes up more than never. Making it easier by boosting the sync level would help too. And nerf the crap out of CT rewards while you're at it so it reflects the effort going in.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Notice something? The list of 50/60/70 dungeons (currently 40, will soon be 43) is far larger than the list of Leveling dungeons (27). Yet the roulette for the former tends to have far longer queue times than that of the latter, since the latter in the eyes of the community is currently far more rewarding than the former. This has led to certain points in player progression where queue times for story-required dungeons in the 50/60/70 category end up absurdly long, especially for DPS players. (Plus 'Duty Roulette: 50/60/70 Dungeons currently clips in the duty finder screen. If that isn't an argument towards re-organizing it to this development team, I don't know what is.)

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The rewards are a big factor in that. Levelling roulette is far, far more rewarding that 50/60/70 roulette. If you're only doing one, you're doing levelling.

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To address that problem, I propose that we re-categorize Leveling and 50/60/70/80 Roulette into Story Dungeon Roulette and Optional Dungeon Roulette. The reward for both roulettes should be equalized as well, having both roulettes award the same EXP/Poetics tome rewards as current Leveling Roulette (if below max level) and the same Goetia/etc. tome rewards as current 50/60/70 Roulette (if at max level).

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Yes, that needs to be done. Your list makes sense, as well. Given that at this point 50/60/70 can put you at a low level than levelling can, I'm not sure why they are still spit up that way. The new list makes sense. :)

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As an additional suggestion, the way roulettes determine which dungeon you get should be redone as well, to be weighted towards each players' current job level.

People don't like it when a party full of level 60+ players somehow ends up being dropped into Satasha. The game has a problem with many people reaching endgame without really knowing how to use some of their skills effectively. The daily method of leveling having a high chance of dropping you into a lower level dungeon where you can't practice using your new skills doesn't help the situation either.

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Seriously, this. There's no need to make us do something at level 15 when the lowest level in the group is 72. That's just not fun.

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Alliance Roulette... Where do I even begin?

The original purpose of Alliance Roulette was to revitalize the older 24-man raid series. Prior to the Roulette being introduced, the Crystal Tower raid series especially would frequently see queue times of 1-2+ hours.

Get rid of item level weighting for the Alliance Roulette. The roulette should not be manipulated in this way. Orbonne may be harder than the rest, but it wouldn't be the insurmountable task the community thinks it is if experienced players actually started doing it again, instead of it being a raid that is now more or less limited to new players who missed the train before. (If it's really needed, Orbonne could use a nerf too.)

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Agreed. Orbonne could be fixed now by just raising it's item level sync so that all this shiny endgame 80 gear we're getting would help us in there. CT is so easy because the ilvl sync is so high that you're hilariously outgeared for it. Rabanastre is the same, it's a total joke now. Orbonne gives you very little cushion, and upping that would make a real difference without having to make drastic changes to the place.

I can't believe they're further incentitiving CT in 5.1 without fixing this. It's ridiculous.

I would go a step further:

Leveling/storyline
50/60 roulette
70/80 roulette
Basic trials (ARR and HW mandatory trials including 4man ifrit, titan and garuda)
Advanced Trials (HW optional trials, SB, ShB trials)
MSQ (All non-optional 8 man encounters that heavily prioritizes players who havent completed those and are in queue, even if those would be in any other roulette [ie. no non-bonus run is formed unless theres nobody in queue meeting those criteria, which is absolutely not the case currently)

I'd honestly rather roulette just no longer give a flat bonus, even its daily one, but instead increase the instance-dependent completion reward to roughly the same effect on average, such that instances with lower typical completion times are not given disproportionately high rewards, or at least less disproportionate of rewards, by means of that flat bonus. Their exp should be slightly less than now, while the completion rewards granted by places like Orbonne should be a fair bit higher.

Lvl roulette gives a bonus on 7m for me atm. 50/60/70 gives me 125k. That’s a problem.

Lvl dungeons also have much more mobs to kill than the 50/60 ones. That’s why people spammed Library and now spam Abania to get from 60-61 or 70-71. It’s more efficient than running the level 60/70 dungeons to get that extra lvl needed to start SB/Shb dungeons. Come next expansion we will probably spam Mt Gulg to get from 80-81 if it stays the same.

I also got a chuckle how you said in the op you want people to queue for Orbonne etc but then said Orbonne could use a nerf. Like that’s one reason why people don’t queue for it and your admitting it while arguing against it. Gave me a light chuckle so it did.

The other reason is time. Ally roulette gives the same regardless of the dungeon. Today I stripped off because I had 45 minutes before I had to leave. Got WoD, not so bad. Done it in about 25minutes. But I just didn’t have time to wipe to cid or yiazmat or hashmal etc and spend an hr or wait for parties to refill once people leave for the same reward I got from a 20/25 min WoD run or 15min Syrcus run. I got my xp and made it out I time to do rl stuff and had no stress

Your method doesn’t account for expert and their tomes which Square won’t scrap so that would need a rethink

I don't think people syncing their item level down is the real issue for Alliance raid. I think the real issue is no incentive for new players to unlock them at all past the Crystal Tower series as that will open their roulette or they got told completing it will help them understand Shadowbringers more. I know when I level alts with people I only pick up the Crystal Tower series as I normally do not want much from the other raid series as I have seen the stories already.

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Originally Posted by Rhus

Lvl roulette gives a bonus on 7m for me atm. 50/60/70 gives me 125k. That’s a problem.

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This is basically why I haven't touched a 5/6/7 almost all of SB. It's not worth the time investment.

They once didn't give xp, now they give xp, which isn't really good. Most of them were once in the Expert category..

I like 50/60/70 because there's some fun dungeons in there, but yeah the bonus needs to be at least half of leveling roulette.

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Originally Posted by Rhus

Lvl roulette gives a bonus on 7m for me atm. 50/60/70 gives me 125k. That’s a problem.

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The way leveling roulette works is that the closer to the level you are to the dungeon, the less bonus exp you get. Say you are 50 and get a 49 dungeon, the bonus will be much smaller than if you got a level 20 dungeon. I see this all the time when I'm in my 70s and I get a Shadowbringers dungeon and I only get a bonus of 2 million, but mobs give a ton of exp from killing them. But if I did a Heavensward dungeon, I would get a much higher bonus on completion, but the mobs don't give nearly as much exp for kills. It all balances out with the exp you get from the mobs. 50/60/70 still doesn't give much of a bonus, though.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Optional Dungeon Roulette:

- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Lv. 35)

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There's a slight correction that you'll have to make on that one because Qarn normal must be entered and completed for the 2.1 story.

All-in-all, this isn’t a terrible suggestion. I rather quite like it—especially the idea of equalizing rewards so that both roulettes are incentivized. Currently, 50/60/70 Roulette is barely worth the time to queue into it; I only tend to queue for it if I need just that last little bit of EXP to push me to the next level so that I don’t have to run an at-level dungeon for a tenth of an EXP bar.

My only concern is that queue times for some of the optional/sidequest dungeons may still be long, since it would depend on if people actually bothered to unlock some of the dungeons or not. I know quite a few newer players that haven’t unlocked some of the 50 and 60 Hard Mode dungeons—they may not be sure that the dungeons exist, even with the new Blue + Quest markers. I know it’s probably not feasible to make the roulette force someone to unlock them all (even though Expert Roulette does this)—but perhaps include in the roulette description the names of dungeons that haven’t been unlocked? Maybe people who read them will feel like seeking them out and unlocking them in the future? I think the roulette should at least include a minimum amount of dungeons unlocked: perhaps a couple from each level cap tier so that we don’t end up with the problem of “Billy only has Amdapor Keep (Hard) and Wanderer’s Palace (Hard), so he forces all the players he gets grouped with into only those two dungeons even if they are level 70+”.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Actually, putting an ilvl restriction on Alliance Roulette wouldn't work upon further thought, because part of Alliance Roulette's purpose is to also act as an additional way to level for those who aren't level capped. An ilvl restriction basically means that it'd only really exist for the tomes for level capped players. And yeah, Expert Roulette's the only one with an ilvl restriction because every dungeon in Expert Roulette is level capped content by default.

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Alliance Roulette could still have a fluctuating item level requirement that changes based on one’s level range when they queue:
—Levels 50~59: Minimum item level requirement of 90 (World of Darkness’ minimum item level)
—Levels 60~69: Minimum item level requirement of 235 (Dun Scaith’s minimum item level)
—Levels 70~79: Minimum item level requirement of 365 (Orbonne Monastery’s minimum item level)
—Level 80: Minimum item level that matches the current Neir raid present within Alliance Roulette

This would probably be the better solution, as it would force players to have a certain item level and prevent them from removing gear in an attempt to cheese and get only the Crystal Tower raids. Likewise, the experience can scale based on the alliance raid tier given, so that high level players earn more for higher level raids. This allows the raids to feel incentivized for the additional time they take (difficulty is not even a huge factor anymore, as the Mhach series and the Ivalice series are nothing like they were in terms of difficulty when the raids were relevant).

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

There's a slight correction that you'll have to make on that one because Qarn normal must be entered and completed for the 2.1 story.

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Keep in mind that this may change by Patch 5.3, depending on how they rework ARR. They could remove this requirement all together like they did the previous requirements of Guildhests back in the day.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

To address that problem, I propose that we re-categorize Leveling and 50/60/70/80 Roulette into Story Dungeon Roulette and Optional Dungeon Roulette. The reward for both roulettes should be equalized as well, having both roulettes award the same EXP/Poetics tome rewards as current Leveling Roulette (if below max level) and the same Goetia/etc. tome rewards as current 50/60/70 Roulette (if at max level).

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I'd add Quarn to the story roulette, since you actually have to do it for one of Post ARR quests.
As well as Dusk Vigil and Shisui, since their completeion is tied to Aether Currents.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Actually, putting an ilvl restriction on Alliance Roulette wouldn't work upon further thought, because part of Alliance Roulette's purpose is to also act as an additional way to level for those who aren't level capped. An ilvl restriction basically means that it'd only really exist for the tomes for level capped players. And yeah, Expert Roulette's the only one with an ilvl restriction because every dungeon in Expert Roulette is level capped content by default.

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Yes it could. You simply adjust the level according to thenqueing job

If your queuing the alliance roulette as a level 56 red mage. Then you set alliance roulette I level to say 100 enough to enter wod.

Then when your redmage dings 60 the Ilevel for alliance roulette goes up to 230 or what ever the entry on dun saith is...

Then when your red magedings 70 the requirement would raise to i350 for the monetary..

Would still be perfectly functional for levelling jobs.

Theres already a level check in place on roulette so it shouldn't be difficult to scale ilevel requirements from that.

I don't want to get locked into 70+ dungeons in a roulette that goes across a higher range just because I keep getting matched with 70+ people. I like that little bonus sometimes of going to some older dungeon I haven't done in ages even if we're all max level.

They could work on their randomization algorithm a bit, but I don't think they need to start restricting by level.

I'd support leveling and 50/60/70 being reorganized as story/optional with equal rewards and roughly equal numbers of duties. Should make it more worthwhile to do and cut down queues for a lot of dungeons.

'50/60/70/eventually 80' is a rather silly name tbh.

I really like the idea of 50/60/70 dungeons that were part of the MSQ being added to leveling roulette. Recently, leveling an alt, I had half hour queue times (even as a tank) for MSQ required dungeons like Ala Mhigo, Skalla, the Burn, and Ghimlyt Dark because not enough people care to run the 50/60/70 roulette. If nothing else, they could at least make it drop Phantasmagoria tomes for more incentive to run it.

As for alliance raid roulette, I think they just need to adjust it like Main Scenario roulette where the higher level raids have a higher reward.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I don't want to get locked into 70+ dungeons in a roulette that goes across a higher range just because I keep getting matched with 70+ people. I like that little bonus sometimes of going to some older dungeon I haven't done in ages even if we're all max level.

They could work on their randomization algorithm a bit, but I don't think they need to start restricting by level.

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Yeah, upon further thought, I've decided to alter the weighting so that it'd consider all dungeons in a 10 level range from the lowest level party member, because potentially getting a single dungeon four days in a row if you're not level 50/60/70 (if that one single roulette is your only method of leveling) isn't what I'd call fun either.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Actually, putting an ilvl restriction on Alliance Roulette wouldn't work upon further thought, because part of Alliance Roulette's purpose is to also act as an additional way to level for those who aren't level capped.

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Why not an iLevel sync?

You enter it and your gear is set to a certain iLevel to match that place. Several dungeons already do this.

Granted it would end the farming of the level 50 alliance raid if people got mini-iLevel sync'd when they walked in. But that might actually be a good thing also...

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Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

I really like the idea of MSQ cap dungeons being added to leveling roulette.

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This would just cause the leveling roulette to be abandoned.

The MSQ dungeons are extremely badly designed... that's why they have their own roulette with some some absurdly good rewards... People want a big payout if they're forced to sit through that mess.

The real solution is to make them solo instances that are part of the quests for them, and never returned to. As a solo instance the design is actually great... And the cutscenes in them even act as if you were alone...
- a tiny bit of scaling (because most of the fights actually can be soloed, but not by new players who don't know FFXIV mechanics), and make them solo. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Why not an iLevel sync?

You enter it and your gear is set to a certain iLevel to match that place. Several dungeons already do this.

Granted it would end the farming of the level 50 alliance raid if people got mini-iLevel sync'd when they walked in. But that might actually be a good thing also...

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On one hand, this could work.

On the other hand, this could backfire spectacularly and cause people to stop queuing for Alliance Roulette in general, depending on how people react to actually having to do mechanics properly for the crystal tower raid series again. But this is an alternative I'll support anyway.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This would just cause the leveling roulette to be abandoned.

The MSQ dungeons are extremely badly designed... that's why they have their own roulette with some some absurdly good rewards... People want a big payout if they're forced to sit through that mess.

The real solution is to make them solo instances that are part of the quests for them, and never returned to. As a solo instance the design is actually great... And the cutscenes in them even act as if you were alone...
- a tiny bit of scaling (because most of the fights actually can be soloed, but not by new players who don't know FFXIV mechanics), and make them solo. Problem solved.

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We're not talking about MSQ Roulette dungeons, that's a different problem entirely with an obvious solution of 'get rid of them and turn them into solo duties at this point'. We're talking about other MSQ-required dungeons at each respective level cap, like Snowcloak and Keeper of the Lake.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

On one hand, this could work.

On the other hand, this could backfire spectacularly and cause people to stop queuing for Alliance Roulette in general, depending on how people react to actually having to do mechanics properly for the crystal tower raid series again. But this is an alternative I'll support anyway.

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Well if people stop queueing for Alliance Raid Roulette in general, then SE can just throw more rewards at it to incentivise it more. But having to do mechanics on ALL of the raids would make them more fairly distributed, and it wouldn't make so much of a difference what people got from the roulette.

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The way leveling roulette works is that the closer to the level you are to the dungeon, the less bonus exp you get.

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Not exactly, but you are correct on parts.

Leveling roulette, combined mob kills and bonus xp, is set to give a specific amount of XP based on Clvl. The higher level the mobs, the more xp per kill, which means less xp from the bonus. The lower level mobs, the lower xp per kill, so the higher the bonus ends up.

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Why not an iLevel sync?

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They already are.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This would just cause the leveling roulette to be abandoned.

The MSQ dungeons are extremely badly designed... that's why they have their own roulette with some some absurdly good rewards... People want a big payout if they're forced to sit through that mess.

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I think you misunderstood what I meant. By MSQ dungeons, I mean dungeons you have to do in the course of the MSQ. Like Ala Mhigo, Skalla, Snowcloak, etc. The dungeons that are 50/60/70 but are part of the MSQ.

I wasn't referring to Main Scenario Roulette at all, nor was this topic, which was why I didn't feel the need to clarify.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

Not exactly, but you are correct on parts.

Leveling roulette, combined mob kills and bonus xp, is set to give a specific amount of XP based on Clvl. The higher level the mobs, the more xp per kill, which means less xp from the bonus. The lower level mobs, the lower xp per kill, so the higher the bonus ends up.

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For some reason this statement made me realize that normal Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda are in Leveling Roulette. I remember I usually don't like getting those because for some reason, the xp bonus appears to be much smaller compared to getting a proper dungeon. Though that could be attributed to a lack of mobs to kill + their relative fast clear rate.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Yeah, upon further thought, I've decided to alter the weighting so that it'd consider all dungeons in a 10 level range from the lowest level party member, because potentially getting a single dungeon four days in a row if you're not level 50/60/70 (if that one single roulette is your only method of leveling) isn't what I'd call fun either.

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I don't want that either. If the roulette is 50/60/70 then I want an equal chance to get anything in that range. I don't want to be locked to only certain levels because the majority of people running the roulette are X level. They need to make this more random so some of those seldom seen dungeons come up, but it should still be possible for a full group of 80s to get Sastasha. Just not every time.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I don't want that either. If the roulette is 50/60/70 then I want an equal chance to get anything in that range. I don't want to be locked to only certain levels because the majority of people running the roulette are X level. They need to make this more random so some of those seldom seen dungeons come up, but it should still be possible for a full group of 80s to get Sastasha. Just not every time.

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Hmm, I kinda forgot I made this thread.

Maybe there could be an option in the duty finder settings that allows you to turn off level-based matching for dungeon roulettes, if you want the dungeons picked to be truly random. (I should mention that none of the stuff I proposed here should apply to Trials and Alliance, I'd think.)

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

For some reason this statement made me realize that normal Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda are in Leveling Roulette. I remember I usually don't like getting those because for some reason, the xp bonus appears to be much smaller compared to getting a proper dungeon. Though that could be attributed to a lack of mobs to kill + their relative fast clear rate.

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The rewards are balanced pretty well between dungeons and 4-man primals. The exp to time reward ratio for the 4-man primals is pretty damn good if you exlclude que times, but I can see it being a bit of a drag for dps who are shooting for maximum exp value per que.